What is modern Syriac's Standard Grammar?

mrzurnaci

Active member
here are my questions on Grammar....

What is the standard sentence structure/word order in our modern Syriac?

is it like Subject-Verb-Object like English example - Sam reads a book
Verb-Subject-Object like Classical Arabic and Classical Hebrew example - ???? ?????? ?????? or ?????????? ?????? ???-??????
Verb-Object-Subject
or Subject-Object-Verb like Armenian and Latin?

What is the Inflection (Past, Present, and Future tenses of) words that are not irregular?
like say with the root verb "to write" ?-?-?
such as
1st c. sg. (my)
2nd m. sg. (your)
2nd f. sg. (your)
3rd m. sg. (his)
3rd f. sg. (her)
1st c. pl. (our)
2nd m. pl. (your)
2nd f. pl. (your)
3rd m. pl. (their)
3rd f. pl. (their)

in both Singular and Plural forms

What are all the pronouns of Modern Syriac?

 
I'm not the right person to answer (I only know a little of the Classic Syriac, though I do want to learn Assyrian Neo-Aramaic someday), but let me comment anyway :)

The Urmia Bible was published both in the classic language and in a modern language (based on the dialect in Urmia).  So perhaps the word forms, word order, etc. used there (in the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic part) could be considered as "a" standard--if not "the" standard--of the modern dialects, at least Assyrian dialects.
 
Liisa said:
I'm not the right person to answer (I only know a little of the Classic Syriac, though I do want to learn Assyrian Neo-Aramaic someday), but let me comment anyway :)

The Urmia Bible was published both in the classic language and in a modern language (based on the dialect in Urmia).  So perhaps the word forms, word order, etc. used there (in the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic part) could be considered as "a" standard--if not "the" standard--of the modern dialects, at least Assyrian dialects.

Assyrian Neo-Aramaic is basically Syriac.....

that's why I call it Modern Syriac. Most of my vocab is from Syriac. EVEN THE DAMN LETTERS ARE FROM SYRIAC...
 
mrzurnaci said:
Assyrian Neo-Aramaic is basically Syriac.....
You're right.  One is the old version from like 4-to-7 centuries, the other is the current version, so to speak.

I'm not sure if this is correct, but according to Grammar of the Modern Syriac Language, as spoken in Oroomiah, the past forms in this dialect are like:
1c sg = ???????    ?1c pl = ???????

2m sg = ????????    ?2c pl = ????????????
2f sg =  ?????????

3m sg = ???????    ?3c pl = ????????
3f sg = ???????

Correct me if I'm wrong :)
 
Liisa said:
You're right.  One is the old version from like 4-to-7 centuries, the other is the current version, so to speak.

I'm not sure if this is correct, but according to Grammar of the Modern Syriac Language, as spoken in Oroomiah, the past forms in this dialect are like:
1c sg = ???????    ?1c pl = ???????

2m sg = ????????    ?2c pl = ????????????
2f sg =  ?????????

3m sg = ???????    ?3c pl = ????????
3f sg = ???????

Correct me if I'm wrong :)
I don't know if you're wrong, that's why I made this thread; hopefully Carlo will come on here and write everything.

But I only have one question, why is there no plural form for the 2nd and 3rd person female?
 
Since I don't think there's a "standard" modern dialect (and I refuse to recognize any and all claims of such :)), I'll speak only for my own using a very rough transliteration method:

mrzurnaci said:
What is the standard sentence structure/word order in our modern Syriac?

is it like Subject-Verb-Object like English example - Sam reads a book
Verb-Subject-Object like Classical Arabic and Classical Hebrew example - ???? ?????? ?????? or ?????????? ?????? ???-??????
Verb-Object-Subject
or Subject-Object-Verb like Armenian and Latin?

Word order tends to be pretty loose. For example, if I wanted to say "Joseph ate an apple," I could do it in a number of ways depending on what aspect of the sentence I wanted to emphasize:

  • Yaawsip khilleh khaabooshaa (SVO)
  • khaabooshaa khilleh Yaawsip (OVS)
  • khilleh Yaawsip khaabooshaa (VSO)

The first one tends to be the "default," so I guess you could say it's mainly SVO. This is complicated, though, when you look at sentences like aanaa aakhlinneh ("I eat it" or "I am eating it" or "I will eat it"): if you take out the optional pronoun "aanaa" and you're left with akhl-in-(l)eh ("eat-I-it"), you can see the ancient verb-subject-object word order preserved.

mrzurnaci said:
What is the Inflection (Past, Present, and Future tenses of) words that are not irregular?
like say with the root verb "to write" ?-?-?
such as
1st c. sg. (my)
2nd m. sg. (your)
2nd f. sg. (your)
3rd m. sg. (his)
3rd f. sg. (her)
1st c. pl. (our)
2nd m. pl. (your)
2nd f. pl. (your)
3rd m. pl. (their)
3rd f. pl. (their)

in both Singular and Plural forms

I can identify four main tenses, each of which can be modified with "waa" to indicate an action further in the past (the names of the tenses are my own and aren't likely to be found in grammars):

(1) Present participle tense, variously translated as "I write," "I do write," "I am writing," or "I will write"; with waa: "I wrote," "I did write," "I used to write," or "I was writing."

1st sg m: kathwin[waa]
1st sg f: kathwen[waa]
2nd sg m: kathwit[waa]
2nd sg f: kathwet[waa]
3rd sg m: kaathiw[waa]
3rd sg f: kathwaa[waa]
1st pl: kathwikh[waa]
2nd pl: kathweetoo[waa]
3rd pl: kathwee[waa]

(2) Absolute passive participle tense, translated as "I wrote" or "I have written;" with waa: "I had written."

1st sg m/f: kthiw[waa]lee
2nd sg m: kthiw[waa]lukh
2nd sg f: kthiw[waa]lekh (note: it's clearly -lekh in my dialect and not -laakh like some other dialects)
3rd sg m: kthiw[waa]leh
3rd sg f: kthiw[waa]laah
1st pl: kthiw[waa]lan
2nd pl: kthiw[waa]lekhoo
3rd pl: kthiw[waa]leheh

Note: the kthiw- part changes depending on the gender/number of the "object" (really, the subject). This is because it doesn't literally mean "I wrote," but "he/she/they were written by me." The passive participle has to match up with the noun it's describing:

  • masculine: kthiw- (e.g., kthaawaa kthiwlee = "book (is) written by me" = "I wrote the book")
  • feminine: ktheewaa- (e.g., iggaartaa ktheewaalee = "letter (is) written by me" = "I wrote the letter")
  • plural: ktheewee- (e.g., kthaawe ktheeweelee = "books (are) written by me" = "I wrote the books")

If the verb has no object (including intransitive verbs, which can't take objects), then the masculine form is used as a dummy: e.g., dmikhlee ("I slept" or, very literally, "he is slept by me").

(3) Gerund tense, translated as "I am writing" or "I do write;" with waa: "I was writing" or "I did write."

1st sg m: kthaawin[waa] or hon [waa] kthaawaa
1st sg f: kthaawen[waa] or hon [waa] kthaawaa
2nd sg m: kthaawit[waa] or hot [waa] kthaawaa
2nd sg f: kthaawet[waa] or hot [waa] kthaawaa
3rd sg m: kthaawaa[waa] or ho leh kthaawaa (with waa: ho waa kthaawaa)
3rd sg f: kthaawaa[waa] or ho laah kthaawaa (with waa: ho waa kthaawaa)
1st pl: kthaawikh[waa] or hokh [waa] kthaawaa
2nd pl: kthaaweetoo[waa] or hotoo [waa] kthaawaa
3rd pl: [supplanted by present participle tense] or ho lah kthaawaa (note the weird short "a" in "ho lah," contrast with the 3rd sg f) (with waa: ho waa kthaawaa)

(4) Emphatic passive participle tense, translated as "I wrote" or "I have written;" with waa: "I had written."

1st sg m: ktheewin[waa] or hon [waa] ktheewaa
1st sg f: kthiwten[waa] or hon [waa] kthiwtaa
2nd sg m: ktheewit[waa] or hot [waa] ktheewaa
2nd sg f: kthiwtet[waa] or hot [waa] kthiwtaa
3rd sg m: ktheewaa[waa] or ho leh ktheewaa (with waa: ho waa ktheewaa)
3rd sg f: kthiwtaa[waa] or ho laah kthiwtaa (with waa: ho waa kthiwtaa)
1st pl: ktheewikh[waa] or hokh [waa] ktheewe
2nd pl: ktheweetoo[waa] or hotoo [waa] ktheewe
3rd pl: [supplanted by present participle tense] or ho lah ktheewe (with waa: ho waa ktheewe)

The first forms of this tense (without the hon/hot/ho leh) supplants the second tense I mentioned (absolute passive participle tense) when the object is defininte. Alternatively, the first tense (present participle tense) can be used with a preceeding "qaam," e.g.:

  • Maryam kthiwlaah kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote a book," absolute passive participle tense)
  • *Maryam kthiwlaah leh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," absolute passive participle tense, ungrammatical)
  • Maryam kthiwtaa leh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," emphatic passive participle tense)
  • Maryam qaam kathwaaleh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," present participle tense)
  • Maryam zwinnaah bethaa ("Mariam bought a house," absolute passive participle tense)
  • *Maryam zwinnaah leh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," absolute passive participle tense, ungrammatical)
  • Maryam zwintaa leh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," emphatic passive participle tense)
  • Maryam qaam zawnaaleh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," present participle tense)

This is the most messed up of all the tenses because it originally had a passive meaning; i.e., ktheewin[waa] now means "I wrote" but was originally "I am written." Confusingly, it still has the passive meaning in some contexts: e.g., kpeenin means "I am famished" (i.e., "I'm hungry") and not "I famished" (i.e., "I made somebody hungry"). To get the latter sense, you would have to use a different stem (the "C" stem, makpone, rather than the "G" stem, kpaanaa), but that's a whole other beast altogether. :)

mrzurnaci said:
What are all the pronouns of Modern Syriac?

All the pronouns? The ones I can think of are:

(1) Personal pronouns:

subjective:
1st sg m/f: aanaa
2nd sg m: aat (also aatee, but not used by older generations as it's the feminine version)
2nd sg f: aatee
3rd sg m: aaw
3rd sg f: aay
1st pl: akhnan or (less commonly) akhnee
2nd pl: akhtoo
3rd pl: aanee or (expressing a greater distance from the speaker) aaneheh

objective:
1st sg m/f: lee
2nd sg m: lukh
2nd sg f: lekh (again, clearly not "laakh" as in other dialects)
3rd sg m: leh
3rd sg f: laah
1st pl: lan
2nd pl: lekhoo
3rd pl: leheh

(2) Demonstrative pronouns:

"this": owwaa (m), ayyaa (f)
"that": aaw (m), aay (f)
"that one over there": owwaahaa (m), ayyaahaa (f)
"these": enneh
"those": aanee
"those ones over there": aaneheh

(3) Possessive pronouns: deedh- plus the usual suffixes as outlined above in the objective personal pronouns. Due to influence from other dialects, the stem deedh- usually turns into deey- or dee'-. Note that these possessive pronouns can also be used as possessive adjectives:

  • aaw bethee ("that is my house," possessive suffix)
  • aaw bethaa deedhee ("that is my house," possessive adjective)
  • aaw deedhee ("that is mine," possessive pronoun)

(4) Reflexive pronouns: jaan- plus the usual suffixes.

(5) Intensive pronouns: b-jaan- plus the usual suffixes.

(6) Relative pronoun: d- followed by the relative clause. Translated as "who," "which," or "that."

(7) Interrogative pronouns:

"who?": anee (in the set phrase "who is it?" used, say, when answering the door, the older form is often used: man eeleh. Eventually, man eeleh -> manee leh -> anee leh, which is how man turned into anee.)
"which?": anee
"what?": mo or modee
"when?: eemaa
"where?": ekaa
"whence?": mekaa
"whither?": lekaa

(8) Other random pronouns:

"no one, neither": aapkhaa
"some, few": khakme or (through metathesis) khamke
"all": kul-  plus a suffix
"so-and-so": flaan
"[number] of them": [number] plus -ethne (e.g., trethne = "two of them," Tlaathne = "three of them," arbethne = "four of them," and so on)

mrzurnaci said:
But I only have one question, why is there no plural form for the 2nd and 3rd person female?

The modern dialect 2nd and 3rd person feminine forms merged with the masculine forms so that both genders have a common form for the plural. This isn't too different from other languages: English distinguishes three different genders for the third person singular ("he/she/it") but only one in the plural ("they") and French has different genders for singular definite articles ("le/la") but the same form in the plural ("les").
 
?Carlo
Thanks so much for your long, detailed explanation.  Though I'm not the one who asked the question, it's very interesting (though it's not like I really understand...)  At least I can see waa is like ??? in the classical language.

Carlo said:
  • Maryam kthiwlaah kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote a book," absolute passive participle tense)
  • *Maryam kthiwlaah leh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," absolute passive participle tense, ungrammatical)
  • Maryam kthiwtaa leh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," emphatic passive participle tense)
  • Maryam qaam kathwaaleh kthaawaa ("Mariam wrote the book," present participle tense)
  • Maryam zwinnaah bethaa ("Mariam bought a house," absolute passive participle tense)
  • *Maryam zwinnaah leh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," absolute passive participle tense, ungrammatical)
  • Maryam zwintaa leh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," emphatic passive participle tense)
  • Maryam qaam zawnaaleh bethaa ("Mariam bought the house," present participle tense)

This is the most messed up of all the tenses because it originally had a passive meaning; i.e., ktheewin[waa] now means "I wrote" but was originally "I am written." Confusingly, it still has the passive meaning in some contexts: e.g., kpeenin means "I am famished" (i.e., "I'm hungry") and not "I famished" (i.e., "I made somebody hungry"). To get the latter sense, you would have to use a different stem (the "C" stem, makpone, rather than the "G" stem, kpaanaa), but that's a whole other beast altogether. :)

I experienced something that seems vaguely similar a few months ago while I was studying the classical language.
Qarahbash uses ????? ??? (????n? sall?) to mean "She carries the basket", which is technically passive, though the meaning is active, like ???? (???n?).  So I was like, "Ok, so passive is used idiomatically in this case.  No problem.  I'll remember that."
But then, in his second book, he says  ??? ???? (???en ?em?eh) when he means "He carries his bag."  Now that's an active participle.  I was like, "What's going on here?  Well, I guess maybe passive is used when something heavy is carried...."  Haha.  I don't know.  A language is so difficult, though that's what makes it interesting too! :)
 
Liisa said:
I experienced something that seems vaguely similar a few months ago while I was studying the classical language.
Qarahbash uses ????? ??? (????n? sall?) to mean "She carries the basket", which is technically passive, though the meaning is active, like ???? (???n?).  So I was like, "Ok, so passive is used idiomatically in this case.  No problem.  I'll remember that."
But then, in his second book, he says  ??? ???? (???en ?em?eh) when he means "He carries his bag."  Now that's an active participle.  I was like, "What's going on here?  Well, I guess maybe passive is used when something heavy is carried...."  Haha.  I don't know.  A language is so difficult, though that's what makes it interesting too! :)

I don't know too much about the context of the phrase, but I think ????? ??? literally means "the basket is carried," which wouldn't be too semantically different from "she carried the basket." According to some dictionaries, ??? is common gender, so ????? is probably a feminine singular absolute passive participle ("she is carried"). :)
 
Carlo said:
I don't know too much about the context of the phrase, but I think ????? ??? literally means "the basket is carried," which wouldn't be too semantically different from "she carried the basket." According to some dictionaries, ??? is common gender, so ????? is probably a feminine singular absolute passive participle ("she is carried"). :)

It's from Book 1, Lesson 13, and the original sentences are:
[rtl]?????? ????? ??????.
???? ????? ???? ???????.
[/rtl]
Maryam l?q?? t?n? (t?n?).  Sarr? ???n? sall? d-zayt? (?-zayt?).
?Mary gathers figs.  Sara carries the basket of olives.?​

Even assuming that sall? is feminine, if this was true passive, there should be ?? as in L-Sarr? ???n? sall?, right?  The phenomenon is explained in N?ldeke ?280:

Several participles of the form ????? are used with an Active signification. This arises partly from the circumstance that the verbs concerned may be doubly transitive, and partly from the influence of the analogy of forms allied in meaning. Thus ????? ?laden with? = ?bearing?

An additional example is John 12:6,
[nobbc]http://www.[/nobbc]peshitta.org/pdf/Yukhnch12.pdf (<-- :no: I can't make this URL clickable; plz copy-paste it...)
where ?He (Judas) was carrying [the bag of money]? is expressed as h? ???n w? instead of the more logical form, h? ???en w?

Thanks to N?ldeke, it was cool for me when I learned that lesson.  But then... now that I'm reading Book 2, there are two occurrences so far where an active participle of the same verb is used basically with the same meaning.  Book 2 Lesson 8 (last sentence) and Book 2 Lesson 19 (last sentence).  This time, the normal ???en is used to mean "carries [his bag]", and not ???n.
Perhaps it's not too different from the situation you described about your modern dialect.  Even in the classical language, which is supposed to be bookish and formal, active and passive participles are sometimes used strangely.  I tried to understand the subtlities behind this, and my best guess is, ???en is when you just carry something normally as in daily life; ???n is when you have to carry something heavy like as a job, or when you're assigned to carry it. (???)
By the way, about the G/D/C stems you were talking about...  I know what they mean, but do you happen to know exactly why "C" is called "C"?  I suspect it stands for the English word "Causative", but as far as I konw G and D are from German terms Grund and Dopp(e)lungs, so it's kind of strange if only "C" is English (Just a random thought).
 
Liisa said:
It's from Book 1, Lesson 13, and the original sentences are:
[rtl]?????? ????? ??????.
???? ????? ???? ???????.
[/rtl]
Maryam l?q?? t?n? (t?n?).  Sarr? ???n? sall? d-zayt? (?-zayt?).
?Mary gathers figs.  Sara carries the basket of olives.?​

Even assuming that sall? is feminine, if this was true passive, there should be ?? as in L-Sarr? ???n? sall?, right?  The phenomenon is explained in N?ldeke ?280:

Now that I see the full context, yes, that does appear to be correct. So ????? is indeed an absolute feminine passive participle, it just agrees with the feminine Sarraa rather than sallaa. If I were to say this in my modern dialect, I would use the fourth tense I mentioned (the emphatic passive participle tense): Sarraa Tintaa leh/laah sallit zethe (leh/laah because I'm not sure of the gender of sallaa in Neo-Aramaic).

About the classical language being bookish and formal: there are many cases in classical texts where an author's vernacular dialect has an obvious influence. That might be what's going on here, the odd passive constructions we keep seeing pop up could be a nonstandard usage brought in by dialectal speakers.


Liisa said:
By the way, about the G/D/C stems you were talking about...  I know what they mean, but do you happen to know exactly why "C" is called "C"?  I suspect it stands for the English word "Causative", but as far as I konw G and D are from German terms Grund and Dopp(e)lungs, so it's kind of strange if only "C" is English (Just a random thought).

I'm not sure why that is, exactly. Maybe they're all English and "G" stands for "ground" and "D" for "double," who can say what 19th-century European grammarians were thinking when they named these? :)
 
Carlo said:
Now that I see the full context, yes, that does appear to be correct. So ????? is indeed an absolute feminine passive participle, it just agrees with the feminine Sarraa rather than sallaa. If I were to say this in my modern dialect, I would use the fourth tense I mentioned (the emphatic passive participle tense): Sarraa Tintaa leh/laah sallit zethe (leh/laah because I'm not sure of the gender of sallaa in Neo-Aramaic).

About the classical language being bookish and formal: there are many cases in classical texts where an author's vernacular dialect has an obvious influence. That might be what's going on here, the odd passive constructions we keep seeing pop up could be a nonstandard usage brought in by dialectal speakers.

I noticed that modern Syriac names of food are sometimes mixed in Classical Syriac text written by modern authors.  Alan Aldawood's Level Three, Lesson 72 has various fruit names.  He calls "peaches" ???????. `Abd-Mshiho Na`aman d-Qarahbash uses the same word*1 for both "peaches" and "plums".  But this word is more like modern Syriac, or actually (I think) it's Arabic.  The classical Syriac forms are ??????? and ??????.  Whenever something like this happens, I can't find the word in CAL/Jessie's dictionary/etc., and I find myself being in the gray zone between Modern and Classical Syriac.

Another example where a dialect may have confused the classical form is, in Qarahbash's Book 1, Lesson 18.  The question 1 reads
???? ???? ???????
Since the classical word for "what" is m?n, the first word should be written ???? (m?n) in Serto; this might be a small oops caused by the fact that ?? is read m? in the West.  Let's just say to err is human :)

That said, passive participles of ??? (like ???? and ????? and ??????) used in active meaning are well attested in classical text.  It's even in the Bible (John 12:6).  Also, like N?ldeke says, this happens in The chronicle of Joshua the Stylite : composed in Syriac A.D. 507.  Line 14 of this page has:
???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????
(Women, on the other hand, were carrying water.)

As such,
???? ????? ???? ???????
should be a good sentence to learn, a valid example of Classical Syriac, not an odd passive influenced by the author's vernacular dialect.

Anyway, why is something like this happening both in Classical and Modern Syriac?

I'd say, maybe because "confusing" active and passive participles is gramatically correct for some verbs.
Like, the feminine active participle and the feminine passive participle are identical in D-stems (e.g. m?att??).  The masculine active participle and the masculine passive participle are different, but only in one vowel (m?atte? vs. m?atta?).  If the 3rd radical is a mischievous guy like R that enjoys confusing students by changing e to a, then active and passive participles become totally identical in D, both in masculine and in feminine, both in singular and in plural.  The voice (Active/Passive) simply depends on the context.  The same form can be both active and passive, and that's grammatically correct!  Then, it's not surprising that in the end people start assuming that active and passive are generally ambiguous, only to be understood from the context.

What N?ldeke wrote ("carrying" = "being laden with") seems to be a good point too.

Japanese (which I speak) has strange passive forms too (or forms identical to the passive).  Sometimes one says, "I was rained" or "*It was rained" when they imply "I was troubled because it rained"  Also, "I am seen" and "I can see" are identical; "is written" and "writes [respectful form]" are identical too.  So I'm ready to accept expressions that can be both active and passive.  "*She was carried the basket." = "She was assigned to carry the basket." works to me.  Come to think of it, English has a thing like "loved"  or "set" too.  "Loved" might be active past OR passive participle.

Carlo said:
I'm not sure why that is, exactly. Maybe they're all English and "G" stands for "ground" and "D" for "double," who can say what 19th-century European grammarians were thinking when they named these? :)
Yeah, I guess you're right :)

EDIT: Fixed the confusion of ? and ? in two places.  Not ??????? but ??????? ; not  ??????? but ???????

*1  With a slightly different vowel: ?????? that is ?????????.  But I think aw in the West is always written as ?w in the East, so I consider the two as the same word.

EDIT2: Wikipedia says:
Akkadian verbs have thirteen separate root stems. The basic, underived, stem is the G-stem (from the German Grundstamm, meaning "basic stem").
An Introduction to Aramaic says:
Qal is called G for the German Grundstamm, which means ?basic conjugation,?
Apparently "G = Grundstamm" is a fact, or at least a common explanation.
 
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