The Church of the East: Recent Disputes in Modesto , CA

Zowaa389

New member
Recently (Sunday 1 March 2009) Mar Awa Royel, the newly appointed US-born bishop of the Western California diocese of the Assyrian Church of the East, secretly ordered the priests, deacons and sub-deacons of St. Zaia Cathedral in Modesto that they, and all other clergy of the Assyrian Church of the East are to have nothing to do with the Ancient Church of the East. They are not to attend mass, funerals, weddings, baptisms or any other Church-related ordinances and receive sacraments from them, nor are they to mix with them on a social level. Any who do not comply with this are threatened with ostracism, marginalisation within the Church, or excommunication. This comes as a shock to the Assyrian parishioners and faithful, who were duly informed, and who maintain at least a cordial relationship with their fellow Assyrians belonging to other Churches, including the Ancient Church of the East. Many of them even have close family members that belong to the Ancient Church of the East.
It has since become apparent that this was one of the decrees issued by the Holy Synod convened in Erbil, northern Iraq in 2008. When complaints were made to Dr. Sargon Dadesho of the Bet-Nahrain Democratic Party in nearby Ceres, which airs the Assyria Vision Satellite Channel, to bring awareness of this issue to the channel?s viewers, he was startled and admitted knowledge of the decree ? but remarked that it was to have been kept a secret known only to members of the clergy. He also supported it because he alleged that the Ancient Church of the East has worked against the Assyrian Church of the East and therefore deserves to be isolated in such a way. As one angry Church member put it, ?The Church of the East no longer deserves to include the name ?Assyrian? in its title since it is no longer a national Church. Neither can the Bet-Nahrain Democratic Party be seen as truly patriotic. By separating Assyrians of different denominations, rather than trying to unite them, they are actually working against our cause as a nation. They are trying to force us to cut off our ties with family and lifelong friends, over disputes between hierarchy members and clergymen!?

There has been much controversy lately in the Western California diocese of the Assyrian Church of the East due to the ordination of Mar Awa Royel. Criticism has largely been aimed at the Church hierarchy?s disregard for Mar Sargis Yosip, a senior bishop formerly based in Baghdad , but who has been living in Modesto as a refugee for roughly the past three years. Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, himself based in Chicago , has repeatedly insisted that Mar Sargis return to his diocese in the volatile Baghdad suburb of Dora, which has until recently suffered constant attacks, bombings and purges of the area?s Christian majority by Jihadists, Muslim extremists and terrorists. Transferring bishops has become common for Iraqi Churches in the years following the Second Gulf War, and is nothing new. The Chaldean Catholic Church transferred senior Metropolitan Mar Jibrail Kassab of the Metropolitan Archbishopric of Basra to Sydney , Australia and the newly formed arch-eparchy of Oceania only in 2006.

In the absence of Mar Bawai Soro, who was stripped of his rank as bishop of Western California diocese by the Synod of the Church of the East in November 2005 for his alleged ?pro-Catholic? leanings, and in light of his decades of service to the Church as a hereditary bishop whose family has provided bishops to the Church of the East for at least the past five centuries, Mar Sargis would have been the ideal candidate to be appointed for the diocese of Western California. Instead Mar Sargis has been kept in a state of limbo, neither here nor there and forced to rely on the charity of concerned friends and faithful around the world who regularly provide him with money to pay for his food, care, and lodgings. Furthermore, in an attempt to get him to return to Iraq Mar Meelis Zaia, Metropolitan of Australia and New Zealand archdiocese, even demanded his attendance of last year?s Synod in Erbil ? knowing full well that he had recently had heart surgery and was unfit to travel.

The St. Zaia parish in Modesto is also up in arms over an issue that re-emerged that Sunday when a toilet was installed in the Diaconion, to the left of the Sanctuary of the Church. This was a feature included in the original church plans by Mar Bawai Soro and was one of the reasons for the removal of that parish from under his jurisdiction in the mid 1990s. Angry parishioners sneaked into the church the night before its consecration and ripped out the toilet, and it was never replaced, until now under the direction of Mar Awa Royel. This is something unknown in the history of the Church of the East, and is not allowed in the Church laws and traditions. ?For a toilet to be located within the general area of the Sanctuary is unheard of? Only a wall of four inches separates the toilet in the Diaconion from the Bishop?s Throne in the Sanctuary,? one angry parishioner remarked. The pictures attached show the church interior, and the interior of the Diaconion, the location of the toilet cubicle within it and its close proximity to the Sanctuary. The St. Zaia Cathedral in Modesto is the only known church building in the world, belonging to the Church of the East, which contains a toilet in the Diaconion, which raises the question, ?why??

The Diaconion (Beth-Dyaqon in Syriac) is the room to the north of the Sanctuary traditionally used for storage of items related to Church services, and also as a vestry and treasury. It is also called the Martyrium (Beth-Sahde), since in older churches it was commonly reserved for the burial of clerics and prelates. Thus, in the words of another angry parishioner, ?For a toilet to be located in this sacred space, practically next to the Divine Altar upon which the Holy Spirit descends upon the communion bread and wine, making them the body and blood of Christ, is an insult to God himself and a disregard of the sort of tradition that makes the Church of the East unique amongst the ancient Eastern Churches.? Members of the parish suspect that this was done to distract their attention from other issues, especially the cutting of the Church?s ties with the Ancient Church of the East.

The original St. Zaia Cathedral was built in the Jilu district (modern Cilo, southeast Turkey ) around 427 AD by the saint himself and it is also where he is buried. It was also the diocese traditionally governed by bishops of the Mar Sargis family, and the Assyrians of Jilu have always shared solidarity with those of the Tyare and Tkhuma districts, whose descendants form the bulk of the Ancient Church of the East?s membership. Thus the Church faithful originating from Jilu see this as an insult to their patron saint, their bishop and their people on the part of the hierarchy of the Assyrian Church of the East. They feel they have been marginalised, discriminated against, and are not being given a prominent role in Church life because of their identity as Jilu Assyrians.

Thus Modesto at the moment seems to be at the epicentre of a broader conflict that is ripping apart at the Church of the East around the world, a conflict between the traditional and the not-so-traditional, between rival hierarchy members, and between the Ashiret (?tribal?) and Rayat (?non-tribal?) Assyrians; and also an attempt to assert the ?Assyrian? Church of the East as separate and above, not equal to, other Assyrian Churches. It is hoped that a peaceful solution could be found to end this in the most suitable manner, with the cooperation of both the hierarchy and laity for the good of the Assyrian people and the Church of the East as an institution.


 
Here is a video by Albert Kiryakoz. You guys should watch it he is saying alot of IMPORTANT stuff.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6635311123766748114&ei=pHXtSbraN6K6qAPO4eStBg&q=albert+kiryakoz&hl=en

I dont know what happent to our churches, but if they keep beeing in the hands of the current leaders, it will lose alot of its members.
I think all of our churches are playing against eachother and noone wants to give the other the hand. Non of those churches seem anymore to understand what Christianty says, they have almost all become ignorant, powerthirsty and eogist Clerigs.

 
i didnt read it all but my cuzn told me whats going on and my uncle is involved in this whole thing, they tried to kick him out of the church, anyway i dont get why they brought this new ass in the church and made him a bishop when they have Mar Sargis there.

and why are ppl kicking other ppl out of church?? and whyyyyyyyyyyy would a bishop put a toilet by the qanke???  :bangin:


No wonder why we dont have a country, if we did ppl like them would eat the rest of us alive.
 
Barwarneta said:
i didnt read it all but my cuzn told me whats going on and my uncle is involved in this whole thing, they tried to kick him out of the church, anyway i dont get why they brought this new ass in the church and made him a bishop when they have Mar Sargis there.

and why are ppl kicking other ppl out of church?? and whyyyyyyyyyyy would a bishop put a toilet by the qanke???  :bangin:


No wonder why we dont have a country, if we did ppl like them would eat the rest of us alive.

May I ask who your cousin is, because I probably know him. (1) They did not put Mar Sargis there because Mar Sargis was opposed to Mar Bawai's removal from the ACOE and this guy did most of the testimony against mar Bawai in Court. Basically a competition over who hates Mar Bawai more. (2) why are they kicking people out of Mar Zaya. This is a direct quote in bold from Bet Nahrain democratic Party Form's website " boy o boy what a clean up starting with the Thief and traitor soro and going down to Qara-Qooz and some zawaa party members who infitrated the church and we all wittnessed in Mar Yousip parish the day zawaa members was fleaing the church with Qashah Tpina after winning the court decision. (3) Why did Mar Awa put a chachma by the bet qanke. Because after his fatwa that Old Calendar members could not enter Mar Zaya and all Shamashe at Mar Zqaya who attended maada, motana, khloola, yan koot pisla khina d sharakta oo khilmat eetaneta (e.g. qrawta) would be mokhrime from Mar Zaya.

Also, I would like to know who placed the original chachma beofre Albert Kiryakoz and Qasha Kando Kando removed it in 1998 and who allowed this chachma to be in the original rendering of Mar Zaya when it was constructed in 1980.
 
This is where all the church stuff should be placed.  Right by the toilette.  Finally, they got something right.  Now we'll see who has the balls to flush it all down.
 
Zowaa740 said:
May I ask who your cousin is, because I probably know him. (1) They did not put Mar Sargis there because Mar Sargis was opposed to Mar Bawai's removal from the ACOE and this guy did most of the testimony against mar Bawai in Court. Basically a competition over who hates Mar Bawai more. (2) why are they kicking people out of Mar Zaya. This is a direct quote in bold from Bet Nahrain democratic Party Form's website " boy o boy what a clean up starting with the Thief and traitor soro and going down to Qara-Qooz and some zawaa party members who infitrated the church and we all wittnessed in Mar Yousip parish the day zawaa members was fleaing the church with Qashah Tpina after winning the court decision. (3) Why did Mar Awa put a chachma by the bet qanke. Because after his fatwa that Old Calendar members could not enter Mar Zaya and all Shamashe at Mar Zqaya who attended maada, motana, khloola, yan koot pisla khina d sharakta oo khilmat eetaneta (e.g. qrawta) would be mokhrime from Mar Zaya.

Also, I would like to know who placed the original chachma beofre Albert Kiryakoz and Qasha Kando Kando removed it in 1998 and who allowed this chachma to be in the original rendering of Mar Zaya when it was constructed in 1980.

i pmed u with his name.


i'm a 7 b'yarkha anyway the only thing that really got me mad was when my cuzn told me that they tried to kick my uncle out of church its not cause he's my uncle its because who r they and who is anyone to kick anyone out of gods house. these ppl need god in their lives and they need to reread the bible.

this is why we need to put goverement el kha pata and church el kha pata those 2 should not mix what so ever. thats why we are having all these problems. our churchs think they can order ppl around and do as they want. they need to chill out and do what they are supposed to do and nothing else.
 
Zowaa740 said:
Recently (Sunday 1 March 2009) Mar Awa Royel, the newly appointed US-born bishop of the Western California diocese of the Assyrian Church of the East, secretly ordered the priests, deacons and sub-deacons of St. Zaia Cathedral in Modesto that they, and all other clergy of the Assyrian Church of the East are to have nothing to do with the Ancient Church of the East. They are not to attend mass, funerals, weddings, baptisms or any other Church-related ordinances and receive sacraments from them, nor are they to mix with them on a social level. Any who do not comply with this are threatened with ostracism, marginalisation within the Church, or excommunication. This comes as a shock to the Assyrian parishioners and faithful, who were duly informed, and who maintain at least a cordial relationship with their fellow Assyrians belonging to other Churches, including the Ancient Church of the East. Many of them even have close family members that belong to the Ancient Church of the East.
It has since become apparent that this was one of the decrees issued by the Holy Synod convened in Erbil, northern Iraq in 2008. When complaints were made to Dr. Sargon Dadesho of the Bet-Nahrain Democratic Party in nearby Ceres, which airs the Assyria Vision Satellite Channel, to bring awareness of this issue to the channel?s viewers, he was startled and admitted knowledge of the decree ? but remarked that it was to have been kept a secret known only to members of the clergy. He also supported it because he alleged that the Ancient Church of the East has worked against the Assyrian Church of the East and therefore deserves to be isolated in such a way. As one angry Church member put it, ?The Church of the East no longer deserves to include the name ?Assyrian? in its title since it is no longer a national Church. Neither can the Bet-Nahrain Democratic Party be seen as truly patriotic. By separating Assyrians of different denominations, rather than trying to unite them, they are actually working against our cause as a nation. They are trying to force us to cut off our ties with family and lifelong friends, over disputes between hierarchy members and clergymen!?

There has been much controversy lately in the Western California diocese of the Assyrian Church of the East due to the ordination of Mar Awa Royel. Criticism has largely been aimed at the Church hierarchy?s disregard for Mar Sargis Yosip, a senior bishop formerly based in Baghdad , but who has been living in Modesto as a refugee for roughly the past three years. Catholicos-Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV, himself based in Chicago , has repeatedly insisted that Mar Sargis return to his diocese in the volatile Baghdad suburb of Dora, which has until recently suffered constant attacks, bombings and purges of the area?s Christian majority by Jihadists, Muslim extremists and terrorists. Transferring bishops has become common for Iraqi Churches in the years following the Second Gulf War, and is nothing new. The Chaldean Catholic Church transferred senior Metropolitan Mar Jibrail Kassab of the Metropolitan Archbishopric of Basra to Sydney , Australia and the newly formed arch-eparchy of Oceania only in 2006.

In the absence of Mar Bawai Soro, who was stripped of his rank as bishop of Western California diocese by the Synod of the Church of the East in November 2005 for his alleged ?pro-Catholic? leanings, and in light of his decades of service to the Church as a hereditary bishop whose family has provided bishops to the Church of the East for at least the past five centuries, Mar Sargis would have been the ideal candidate to be appointed for the diocese of Western California. Instead Mar Sargis has been kept in a state of limbo, neither here nor there and forced to rely on the charity of concerned friends and faithful around the world who regularly provide him with money to pay for his food, care, and lodgings. Furthermore, in an attempt to get him to return to Iraq Mar Meelis Zaia, Metropolitan of Australia and New Zealand archdiocese, even demanded his attendance of last year?s Synod in Erbil ? knowing full well that he had recently had heart surgery and was unfit to travel.

The St. Zaia parish in Modesto is also up in arms over an issue that re-emerged that Sunday when a toilet was installed in the Diaconion, to the left of the Sanctuary of the Church. This was a feature included in the original church plans by Mar Bawai Soro and was one of the reasons for the removal of that parish from under his jurisdiction in the mid 1990s. Angry parishioners sneaked into the church the night before its consecration and ripped out the toilet, and it was never replaced, until now under the direction of Mar Awa Royel. This is something unknown in the history of the Church of the East, and is not allowed in the Church laws and traditions. ?For a toilet to be located within the general area of the Sanctuary is unheard of? Only a wall of four inches separates the toilet in the Diaconion from the Bishop?s Throne in the Sanctuary,? one angry parishioner remarked. The pictures attached show the church interior, and the interior of the Diaconion, the location of the toilet cubicle within it and its close proximity to the Sanctuary. The St. Zaia Cathedral in Modesto is the only known church building in the world, belonging to the Church of the East, which contains a toilet in the Diaconion, which raises the question, ?why??

The Diaconion (Beth-Dyaqon in Syriac) is the room to the north of the Sanctuary traditionally used for storage of items related to Church services, and also as a vestry and treasury. It is also called the Martyrium (Beth-Sahde), since in older churches it was commonly reserved for the burial of clerics and prelates. Thus, in the words of another angry parishioner, ?For a toilet to be located in this sacred space, practically next to the Divine Altar upon which the Holy Spirit descends upon the communion bread and wine, making them the body and blood of Christ, is an insult to God himself and a disregard of the sort of tradition that makes the Church of the East unique amongst the ancient Eastern Churches.? Members of the parish suspect that this was done to distract their attention from other issues, especially the cutting of the Church?s ties with the Ancient Church of the East.

The original St. Zaia Cathedral was built in the Jilu district (modern Cilo, southeast Turkey ) around 427 AD by the saint himself and it is also where he is buried. It was also the diocese traditionally governed by bishops of the Mar Sargis family, and the Assyrians of Jilu have always shared solidarity with those of the Tyare and Tkhuma districts, whose descendants form the bulk of the Ancient Church of the East?s membership. Thus the Church faithful originating from Jilu see this as an insult to their patron saint, their bishop and their people on the part of the hierarchy of the Assyrian Church of the East. They feel they have been marginalised, discriminated against, and are not being given a prominent role in Church life because of their identity as Jilu Assyrians.

Thus Modesto at the moment seems to be at the epicentre of a broader conflict that is ripping apart at the Church of the East around the world, a conflict between the traditional and the not-so-traditional, between rival hierarchy members, and between the Ashiret (?tribal?) and Rayat (?non-tribal?) Assyrians; and also an attempt to assert the ?Assyrian? Church of the East as separate and above, not equal to, other Assyrian Churches. It is hoped that a peaceful solution could be found to end this in the most suitable manner, with the cooperation of both the hierarchy and laity for the good of the Assyrian people and the Church of the East as an institution.

Don't read one side of the story.
 
Zowaa740 said:
It has since become apparent that this was one of the decrees issued by the Holy Synod convened in Erbil, northern Iraq in 2008.

if this is true, how come other dioces dont know about it, or they are not implimenting it??????
 
I highly doubt this is true. I've known Mar Awa for years, and this is something I wouldnt deem credible by any account, unless you have some kind of source to it. There have been tons and tons of people writing articles, trying to bring down our church clergy for years. This is probably another attempt..
 
Dave The Sh0cker said:
I highly doubt this is true. I've known Mar Awa for years, and this is something I wouldnt deem credible by any account, unless you have some kind of source to it. There have been tons and tons of people writing articles, trying to bring down our church clergy for years. This is probably another attempt..

to bring down the church r u F'en kidding me did u read what i wrote???????? the so called khasha and the lame ppl that are with him r kicking ppl out of the church and one of them is my uncle. Who gives them the right to do that???? tell me did God tell them to start kicking ppl out for nothing. Come on man i was in cali and i know please.
 
Im sorry, but Ive lived my whole life in the same SJ Parish, witnessed the entire Soro situation unfold. My Dad, Grandfather, Uncles, and Cousins have all been thoroughly involved and I can tell you for a fact; The ACOE has enemies. Enemies that have tried to destroy this Eta since the 1500s. It is still going on today.

The relationship between the Ancient COE and the Assyrian COE has always been a bit shaky, but we used to co-exist. They used to attend funerals, weddings, baptisms, etc together. Recently, the Ancient COE decided it would open its doors to Ashur Soro and his followers, and that cant be tolerated by the Assyrian Church of the East after all the things that have happened in the past few years. H.G. Mar Awa never kicked anyone out. He simply clarified the update of the relationship between the two Churches, and people left.

I dont want to make any enemies here. Im not here to argue over Church and that stuff. Theres a time and a place for all of that, and thats not on the internet, where so much gets lost in translation. So this is probably the last response I will post in this thread. By default though, when I see HG Mar Awa getting attacked, I will almost always respond to it because of the relationship I have with Him. I can honestly say he changed my life, and helped me get on the right track. Without Him, I would be in a deep world of shit.

God Bless.
 
Zowaa740 said:
Recently (Sunday 1 March 2009) Mar Awa Royel, the newly appointed US-born bishop....

Can a guy with the name "Zowaa" in his avatar not talk about church issues please? La bassa kheena?
 
Dave The Sh0cker said:
Im sorry, but Ive lived my whole life in the same SJ Parish, witnessed the entire Soro situation unfold. My Dad, Grandfather, Uncles, and Cousins have all been thoroughly involved and I can tell you for a fact; The ACOE has enemies. Enemies that have tried to destroy this Eta since the 1500s. It is still going on today.

The relationship between the Ancient COE and the Assyrian COE has always been a bit shaky, but we used to co-exist. They used to attend funerals, weddings, baptisms, etc together. Recently, the Ancient COE decided it would open its doors to Ashur Soro and his followers, and that cant be tolerated by the Assyrian Church of the East after all the things that have happened in the past few years. H.G. Mar Awa never kicked anyone out. He simply clarified the update of the relationship between the two Churches, and people left.

I dont want to make any enemies here. Im not here to argue over Church and that stuff. Theres a time and a place for all of that, and thats not on the internet, where so much gets lost in translation. So this is probably the last response I will post in this thread. By default though, when I see HG Mar Awa getting attacked, I will almost always respond to it because of the relationship I have with Him. I can honestly say he changed my life, and helped me get on the right track. Without Him, I would be in a deep world of ****.

God Bless.

hun im not trying to start shit with anyone on here too, i dont take things like these to the heart. i dont really care about what they do or what they did i just dont think its right to tell ppl they cant come to a church doesnt matter which one its Gods house thats all, thats what i got mad at. and i seen the letter they sent my uncle :/ its sad. i mean its not like chicago we have like 100 churchs we can go to. modesto is small. and my family from back home have always been going to Mar Zaia church i was even baptized at Mar Zaia in baghdad.
 
Barwarneta said:
hun im not trying to start **** with anyone on here too, i dont take things like these to the heart. i dont really care about what they do or what they did i just dont think its right to tell ppl they cant come to a church doesnt matter which one its Gods house thats all, thats what i got mad at. and i seen the letter they sent my uncle :/ its sad. i mean its not like chicago we have like 100 churchs we can go to. modesto is small. and my family from back home have always been going to Mar Zaia church i was even baptized at Mar Zaia in baghdad.

Cool. I signed up here telling myself I would not get dragged into a church battle, good to know you see where Im coming from.
 
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