I don't know how it is for east Assyrians but from what I understood of what you said Zurnaci, it looks like the west assyrians got the sound of the alphabet actually right, Kaph is koph for west assyrians just like you said how it is suppose to be. How come they changed the sound for the letters for you east Assyrians?
Syriac language
- Thread starter Neta1991
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mrzurnaci
Active member
Asshur said:
Actually, no one has it correct.
Western dialect has it nearly perfect to Classical/Educational Syriac. The only part that ruins it is by replacing Zqapa "ah" with "oh"
Another part that ruins it is that Peh is ALWAYS used as Feh... Feh is supposed to be when Peh has to be changed according to grammar, not permanently changed as Feh...
privatebenjamin said:
I agree with this. Honestly, I don't want our language to change back to a pseudo-Arabic sounding language. It has softened as a result of our language just evolving naturally. Like w->v in my dialect is not a result of some foreign influence. Zurnaci, you are over thinking what needs to happen. One dialect just needs to be chosen as a standard, like what happened with Italian. Everyone does not need to get rid of their dialects.
mrzurnaci said:
Some dialects sound more like Arabic than others. I don't care about the technicalities of them sounding like Syriac as opposed to the reverse.
And some really do have Arabic influence. We'll use Palestinian as an example. I use "Palestinaye." Other Assyrians use "Filisteenaye or "Filistine." That is because of Arabic. We don't really use "ayn" or that breathy "h" sound either, that I know is present in some of our other dialects.
mrzurnaci
Active member
elevated said:
If it exists in our dialects, how is it pseudo-Arabic then?
Also, what does it matter if we say Palestine or Falestine? Palestine originates from Hebrew "plashet" "Land of the Phillistines"...
Aramaic itself has a verb called "Plash" meaning "to break through, invade".
It's obvious that Arabic morphed the P to F because they're herpaderps but it makes no significant difference...
We don't have much use of Ayn or Guttural H because our lack of proper language education, thanks to "the religion of peace", deteriorated the language into an uneducated ghetto dialect...
How many times do I have to explain that?
mrzurnaci said:
Because those sounds are usually a result of recent influence. Most Assyrians don't use them, but I don't like Arabic influence on our language, because it might make some Assyrians have a superficial connection to these people.
It's not ghetto. It's our language. We don't need to revive classical Syriac unless it's just used as Standard Assyrian. Our dialects don't need to go extinct.
Those sounds are ugly. We don't need them.
mrzurnaci
Active member
elevated said:
Are you seriously joking me?
Syriac existed before Arabic and Syriac always had 'Ayn and the guttural H sound since its inception...
What about the V sound beth originally had? Why doesn't that exist either?
We're not reviving classical Syriac, we're correcting wrongs and our ghetto village dialects all have to go...
our dialects should just die out, classic syriac should be revived and used as standard or not, our people don't know words such as confront,divine,argument etc etc etc , we can't even speak our own language without lending words from disgusting languages.elevated said:
I once asked my swedish friend which language sounds best, I spoke little classic syriac then our normal dialect, he replied saying that the first one sounded so cool like if it would be used for only nobles men, while he said that the other one souneded like just gibberish. The point is, why speak a disgusting ghetto dialect of an amazing rich language?
mrzurnaci said:
Nope. Language commonalities can actually make people feel closer, just like any other type of category that humans follow. Although, much less so. The farther away we are from all of our neighboring languages, the better. Even when Turkey was founded, Ataturk removed thousands of loan words from Arabic and Farsi, going as far to change the alphabet to distance Turks from others. We obviously don't need to be that extreme, given we're not Muslims, but we still need to try a bit, considering that some Assyrians still have loyalty to Iraq and Syria, or sympathize with them.
They're not "ghetto." Classical Syriac(or any random dialect or Akkadian) can become "Standard Assyrian" for all I care, but I still stand by the lack of need for our dialects to be forcefully killed. Just follow the Italian model, and everything should work out correctly.
Asshur said:
Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.
So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both.
mrzurnaci
Active member
elevated said:Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.
So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both.
How are they hideous to the ears? Our ancestors used both those sounds for thousands of years until Syriac deteriorated from the 1500s onward...
Classical Syriac sounds just like Western Syriac but with some more sounds like Peh and Veth.
Hideous to the ears but eastern dialects have no problem using J, Cheh, and ZH (s in Treasure) sounds? J and Cheh in Aramaic sound hideous to my ears.
Not just that but doesn't having J and ZH in Syriac actually make it closer to Arabic?
'ayn and "HH" are part of the heritage that are an integral part of the language. Those two sounds existed in Syriac before Arabic even existed.
so no, Classical Syriac isn't closer to Arabic as even Hebrew had Ayn and HH in their language before they butchered it with German...
That doesn't suddenly make them not hideous. Arabs and Dutchmen can say the same thing about speaking their languages being thousands of years old, but they both sound gross.mrzurnaci said:
A video would be nice.
Zh sounds nice. It makes words flow better like treasure, de jure, and Urmignaye.
Ch can get annoying. Words can always go through the change of ch->sh, like in chandelier. However, it might make our language sound too feminine. I'm not one of those Assyrians that changes kelba/chelba(dog), kayka/chaycha(cake), keeki/cheechi(teeth), etc. Like chengel(fork) can become shengel, but not kengel in my opinion.
J isn't used that much, but can always shift to zh(which it basically sounds like anyway) or g if necessary. Panjara(window), Jilvaye/Jilwaye(Assyrians from Jilu), and junta(purse/suitcase) can easily switch to panzhara, Zhilvaye/Zhilwaye, and zhunta, respectively.
I also think any word can shift between ch, j, and zh without sounding weird. Panchara/Panjara/Panzhara all sound harmonious to me.
They're not used in the same context most of the time.
So? 'Ayn sounds like someone is punching/giving you a weird massage while you're speaking. "I'm in p'ayn and I've g'ayned some weight." <- Illustrating my point. It also sounds very Arabic, since it has practically went extinct in Eastern Assyrian. "HH" sounds like you are taking a breath mid-sentence. The only word I can think of that uses it is Kah'wy(brown), which by the way, sounds terrible.
I haven't listened to Classical Syriac(which I'll do now), but if these two sounds are prevalent, it can't sound that nice.
Well, I listened to this Western Assyrian song, and I liked it for the most part(flows better than Eastern Assyrian in some regards), but I also heard that dreaded "th" sound present in some Eastern Assyrian dialects.
That is another sound that makes our language sound like Arabic. One of the Eastern Assyrian words that do that in some dialects is telaja->thelaja(fridge), which basically sounds like Arabic thelaj.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TLsFOO6e4#ws
Here is an Eastern Assyrian song that has a similar melody for an accurate comparisonskip to 1:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnEDyhBup4o#ws
That is another sound that makes our language sound like Arabic. One of the Eastern Assyrian words that do that in some dialects is telaja->thelaja(fridge), which basically sounds like Arabic thelaj.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TLsFOO6e4#ws
Here is an Eastern Assyrian song that has a similar melody for an accurate comparison
skip to 1:30)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnEDyhBup4o#ws
Cascade
Well-known member
Never said that. There is no goal when it comes to evolution. It would've sounded different for sure from the past Syriac. I do agree that English is the most mixed language in the world. Most of our words are French, Latin, German and Greek.mrzurnaci said:
There is no right or wrong man! We all speak the Syriac language. One language isn't less or more wrong. We evolved. And that's that. We will never sound full on Syriac.
How ironic, since it's the people of the "religion of peace" that speak a language with a guttural H and Eh. Our language 'deteriorated' for the better. It sounds more pristine and clearer. Go look at the friggin' polls of the worst sounding languages - Hebrew, Arabic, Dutch and German. Why? Because they're so annoyingly and unpleasantly guttural. Assyrian evolved for the better. Only our church priests and Assyrian purists tend to be guttural. I'm glad that we all don't sound that way. And really? Ghetto? For me guttural sounds are worse than ghetto. They are primitive.
J and ZH sound French, rather than Arabic. Bonjour. I love the Zh sound actually.
I couldn't have said it better!elevated said:
If I have to choose between an ugly Syriac variant (the traditional "Assyrian" language) over a clean, pristine sounding modern dialect I'd choose the latter any day. I listen to the Turoyo language and I get cringed with their massive use of guttural sounds. Chaldeans also use those.
Tell me Mrzurnaci, if our language is so Arabicized why the hell did we drop the guttural H and Ayn? And as what Elevated said, even if Syriac came before Arabic (which I commend) the guttural sounds won't automatically sound pretty.
"Th" isn't too Arabic in my ears. Not to mention, it's predominantly used all over the world anyway. Incidentally, even a fictional language like Elvish (in LOTR) has a lot of "th" sounds. Oh, English speakers use it too. It's not a biggie to me. And most importantly, it doesn't sound unattractive me.
Tyrahes and Barwarneys use 'th' a lot (betha, kthetha, leyathen) - We personally don't. It's just a dialect, doesn't mean they are more or less Assyrian than us.
privatebenjamin said:
I wasn't insinuating that they are less Assyrian. Whatever language or dialect an Assyrian speaks, has no bearing on their "Assyrianess" to me. If they only speak English, good for them. If they only speak Russian, that's okay too. I personally just don't like the sound when it's overdone. What those dialects do, is exactly what some Urmignaye(the dialect I speak) do with the "ch" sound. It's just an overkill sometimes. Neither of these sounds are anywhere close to the irritation level of 'ayn and breathy h though. I would also have no problem with them becoming the basis of a "Standard Assyrian", if that ever happens. Same with any of the other dialects(Eastern or Western), as long as they're not extremely influenced by neighboring languages.
Flora Simon sings with them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJvuSQ8rtg#ws
All of the Assyrian dialects are pretty close together now, anyway. It doesn't matter if they were originally from Hakkari or Urmia, you can completely comprehend each other, even with the subtle differences. That's why I can completely understand Flora Simon.
Cascade
Well-known member
My post about what's more or less Assyrian was more towards Mrzurnaci (though I happened to have it under your quotes).elevated said:
And yes, I actually agree that they can be an overkill - the "ch" and "th". At times it gets rather funny. Flora Simon overdoes it too. Ramsen Shino is an Iraqi Koine speaker but he uses them in some of his songs (Dushala, La Gkhook) - I guess to garner the Tyarayeh's attention. But then again, some people just naturally speak that way.
I speak the so-called "Iraqi Koine", as does my family and relatives. So we don't say the "ch" and "th" (some may use "ch", like my late grandma, due to her Urmi background). Incidentally, the Urmian's use of "v" does sound a little pesky (warda = varda).
For me anyway, what matters the most is that we dropped the guttural H and Eh. Though some of our traditional hymns retains them. For example, they are heard in this Linda George liturgical song (just the guttural 'eh', and "th"). For the untrained ear it sounds Arabic (yes, yes, we know that Syriac came before it, but we would be confused with Arabic either way since everyone knows how it sounds, unlike Syriac):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aCQlj-MAns#
M
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mrzurnaci said:
I've already passionately felt the same way ....we just need a means to reform and standardise the language.