non-Muslims in the Middle east

EddieBrock said:
This site should be strictly Assyrian.. that's just how I see it. I don't like all this bullshit. I think I'll do myself a favour, and this site a favour, and just not sign in again. I don't like this shit one little bit. Call me racist.. I don't care.. but this should be a strictly Assyrian site - period. I don't like some Jewish dude registering with our Assyrian site and preaching his views to us. Muslims kill our people, blah blah blah. Yea they do, and what do you expect when you bulldoze a family's house because you SUSPECTED a terrorist lived there? I'm not supporting or justifying terrorist acts against anybody.. Muslims slaughtered my people too.. but I know Jews aren't as innocent and happy-go-lucky as they portray themselves to be. Don't start talking about 'us non-Muslim' people and all kinds of bullshit. We're all human. Maybe I'm the only person who cares enough to see one innocent person dying as a big thing. That's why it pisses me off when I see how Isreal deals with their problems. Go find specific people, don't hassle everybody like they're beneath you. Whatever man.. this is exactly what this dude said it isn't - propaganda. He's trying to pull in as many people on his side as possible. If you know somebody is a terrorist, go find them and capture them. I swear these guys move exactly like the States government moves. And they get away with even more. Anybody who harms an innocent soul is a terrorist to me. 'He hit me, I'm just hitting him back' doesn't solve anything. Anyways.. everybody can hate on me and my thoughts all you want. That's fine. Just use your brain. That's all.

But like I said.. I'll do us all a favour and just leave - because as long as it's like this, I can't play nice or say nice things. So have a nice day.. thanks for the support.. goodluck with the site.


Eddie,

You make great points, but the mode of your response sickens me. I'm sick of all this religion bullsh*t to be honest with you. One of my really good and intellectual friends is Jewish(he's actually agnostic) and we have open discussions all the time. I do not support the Israeli government in any way, shape, or form. But I cant stand those foolish Muslims who believe the stones will talk to them when a Jew hides behind it and Jews are 'transformed apes and pigs'. This is stupidity. The Israeli-Palestinian issue should be taken away from the 'Muslim-Jewish' question.

There is no hope in this world obviously.
 
The obvious answer is to try and come up with a pluralistic solution that allows peaceful coexistence of all humans with eachother. We do not live in the ancient times where this concept is foreign, we are an in advanced age and have evolved as a society.


Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi, what makes u think they wanna live in an advanced age and society? What makes you think they want to live in peacefull coexistence with the non-muslims?
 
fred1980 said:
The obvious answer is to try and come up with a pluralistic solution that allows peaceful coexistence of all humans with eachother. We do not live in the ancient times where this concept is foreign, we are an in advanced age and have evolved as a society.


Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi, what makes u think they wanna live in an advanced age and society? What makes you think they want to live in peacefull coexistence with the non-muslims?

And what makes you think the papacy hundreds of years ago wanted to tolerate skeptical and critical thinking of many great scientists and thinkers without torturing them? But today, the Pope is someone you'd have over for a cup of tea. Change is not an instantaneous phenomenon that happens overnight. Change eventuates through a gradual and evolutionary process. The Middle East is no exception. Islam and the Middle East is going through the same dark ages Christianity brought upon itself. There are underground liberal movements emerging, and as time goes on these movements will multiply and multiply.

Do not make an assessment of what you think is right, in relevance to how others act. This is not what ethics teaches us. Believe in what seems rational and logical to you as a human being, irrespective of how others value themselves and this world.

I completely agree with you, Muslims are very intolerant. Specifically because Islam is intolerant. But also, it didnt shock me when I saw many radical Israeli Jews on a Frontline documentary talk about how all the Arabs should be expelled from the land, since the land was given to the Jews by God. Their model of a perfect Israel, is one that indoctrinates the teachings of the Torah, not the people.

The Middle East bares this problem of religious intolerance more than anywhere else. Islam is the religion practiced by the majority and Islam also happens to be discriminatory by nature, hence its practice will not be to the liking of non-muslims. Again, gradual change is the only optimism we can have.
 
Fred,

The majority of Assyrians are not even patriotic enough to move back to "Assyria", let alone defend it. I am not a big fan of Ariel Sharon as a politician and a man who refused to attempt to make peace with a more willing Yasser Arafat, BUT, I admire his courage and his leadership and patrioticism. This man has been involved in EVERY war that Israel has been a part of, from the war of Independence which granted Israel its current status as a country, to the 1973 war, to the invasion of Lebanon where he lost his job as defence minister after the inhumane massacre of the Palestinians there back in 1982. He is inhumane as a person but at the same time, Israel would be NOTHING without Ariel Sharon. Like him or hate him, when he talks, Israelis listen. Do we have ANYONE among us who is both a warrior and a leader and a polictian who can unite all Assyrians? Sadly, the answer is NO!

The Jews have something that we Assyrians completely lack and that is pride. The Jews also have unity whilst we are always dividing ourselves up. Our plight is similar to the Jews in many ways, but our attitudes are completely different.
 
EddieBrock,

There is no need to be this way towards Hebrew. He did not come here to cause problems (I hope not anyway LOL). We Assyrians can learn a lot from other people and cultures and as long as the non-Assyrians on this website (and Hebrew is not the only one) respect us as we are, then they can be and should be as much a part of this online community as Assyrian people.
 
Moja Moja,

The majority of Assyrians are not even patriotic enough to move back to "Assyria", let alone defend it

Your mistaken, when given the right to exist and with all worldy concensus which assyrians would not wanna live in an oil rich, futile, prosperous and more importantly the country of our ancestors?. And there is the subjective feeling also, for example how would you(or any assyrian) feel like when the assyrian flag is raised during the olympics and assyrian athletes walk in...
So many assyrians may not feel nationalistic but they sure will be when the land of assyria is concreet.

Again when given the right by world authority to esthablish the land of assyria we too will have many " Ariel Sharon's". In the end they will not allow, nor wanna live in peace with a non muslim state existing in the heart of the world oil riches. So they will be out there trying to kill as many as they can, just as they have been doing and are still doing in israel.
So in this prospect i surely can understand the israelis and indeed feel with them.

Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi,

Your posting is one big contradiction.

On the one hand u say muslims need to evolve with modern times like christianity has, on the other hand u say muslims are intolerant and cant change.

To be short; Islam and its followers can not change or evolve into something modern.
As long as there is oil money they will try to conquer and islamitise the world. Im sorry when i sound racist like but from my personal experience ( living among muslims in europe) i have not seen any sign of them willing to be peacefull towards the non-muslims. And the muslims ive been with are the educated ones so let alone the ones who've not had higher education what will they be like ?
 
EddieBrock said:
This site should be strictly Assyrian.. that's just how I see it. I don't like all this bullshit. I think I'll do myself a favour, and this site a favour, and just not sign in again. I don't like this shit one little bit. Call me racist.. I don't care.. but this should be a strictly Assyrian site - period. I don't like some Jewish dude registering with our Assyrian site and preaching his views to us. Muslims kill our people, blah blah blah. Yea they do, and what do you expect when you bulldoze a family's house because you SUSPECTED a terrorist lived there? I'm not supporting or justifying terrorist acts against anybody.. Muslims slaughtered my people too.. but I know Jews aren't as innocent and happy-go-lucky as they portray themselves to be. Don't start talking about 'us non-Muslim' people and all kinds of bullshit. We're all human. Maybe I'm the only person who cares enough to see one innocent person dying as a big thing. That's why it pisses me off when I see how Isreal deals with their problems. Go find specific people, don't hassle everybody like they're beneath you. Whatever man.. this is exactly what this dude said it isn't - propaganda. He's trying to pull in as many people on his side as possible. If you know somebody is a terrorist, go find them and capture them. I swear these guys move exactly like the States government moves. And they get away with even more. Anybody who harms an innocent soul is a terrorist to me. 'He hit me, I'm just hitting him back' doesn't solve anything. Anyways.. everybody can hate on me and my thoughts all you want. That's fine. Just use your brain. That's all.

But like I said.. I'll do us all a favour and just leave - because as long as it's like this, I can't play nice or say nice things. So have a nice day.. thanks for the support.. goodluck with the site.

I'm not here to impose my views on anybody. You don't have to agree with what I say. I am sure everyone here is intelligent enough to think on their own.

I am simply stating my opinion. If the mods on this forum don't appreciate it I will respect their decision and stop posting here.

My understanding was that this is a free and open forum much like the other Jewish forums that I post on where often times there are more non-Jews than Jews.

Another thing. I dont think you have a good understanding of Israel's history and its current situation. It is quite comical to say that Pallies are killing Israel because Israelis are blowing up their houses. Pallies have been killing Israelis since 1929 well before there even was an Israeli state. Israel was willing to compromise in 1947 partition plan that gave the pallies a state but the pallies wanted it all so they went to war and lost and losers are losers. At any rate read up on the history.
 
Senalko said:
Nothing Can justify the Human right Abuses and the endless of Crimes that the Isreali goivernment has commited against inoccent people in Palastine quote]

Pray tell what endless crimes against pallies are you talking about?

Do young Israelis blow themselves up in crowded Arab shopping malls, theatres and buses?

Israel has been ready to compromise time and time again but the sad facts are that too many muslims in this region have not come to terms with Israel- a non islamic entity- in their midst. Their religious leaders are determined to keep the Jihad up untill 'the Jews are pushed into the sea'. Well what am I supposed to do? take swimming lessons?
 
Hebrew,
I don't care what the few others may think, but you are always welcome to this site. I enjoy your posts and insights and there is nothing wrong with stating your views.
The reason why Assyrians don't have a country is because of those few that can't treat people with respect, regardless of their culture and religion.
 
Angel2 said:
Hebrew,
I don't care what the few others may think, but you are always welcome to this site. I enjoy your posts and insights and there is nothing wrong with stating your views.
The reason why Assyrians don't have a country is because of those few that can't treat people with respect, regardless of their culture and religion.

Thanks, I appreciate that.
 
Recently I came across a very interesting Jewish article from several years ago which sparked my renewed interest and respect for Assyrians.



Iraq War Pushes Little-Known Assyrians to Fore
By SIMONA SHAPIRO
FORWARD CORRESPONDENT
CHICAGO ? Waving American flags, more than 400 people gathered last Sunday in Chicago's Warren Park, carrying signs that read "God Bless America." At first glance, the scene was unremarkable in this time of rallies for and against the war. But there was something unusual about this crowd. Their Middle Eastern looks. The hand-lettered signs that read, "Thank you for freeing my homeland."

Most striking to a Jewish observer were the oddly familiar yet mysterious syllables resounding occasionally from the platform. "Shlam Alukhem," one speaker said, "Talbakh min maren esho meshikha qat khame l'da atra..." It didn't quite sound like Arabic. It certainly wasn't Hebrew. To the scholarly ear it sounded curiously like the language of the Talmud, Aramaic.

It was. Asked what language they were speaking, attendees at the rally said it was "Assyrian" and that they were members of the Assyrian people. Rare media accounts of this group tend to group them with other, larger Iraqi minorities, such as the Kurds or the Shiites. Like these groups, Assyrians have suffered atrocities at the hands of Saddam Hussein. But the Assyrians are unique, Joseph Tamraz, Midwest director of the Assyrian American National Federation, told the Forward. "We are the oldest indigenous people of Iraq. We are different in our ethnicity and in our Christianity."

Assyrians have been culturally distinct from their Arabic-speaking neighbors since Arab peoples invaded Mesopotamia in the year 637 of the current era. Due to ongoing persecution, most Assyrians now reside abroad; estimates of their worldwide numbers vary from less than 1 million to 3 or 4 million. The Assyrian language, known to linguists as neo-Aramaic, is a modern evolution of the ancient language familiar to Jews from the Kaddish prayer, the Passover song "Chad Gadya" and the Talmud.

Last Sunday's rally was organized by the umbrella organization for Assyrian associations in Chicago. It was conducted in both Assyrian and English and consisted of prayers, songs, praise for the American troops and expressions of concern for the future of the Assyrian homeland, which they call Bet Nahrain, or "between two rivers."

Benjamin Lincoln Tamraz, an American veteran, told the crowd that a group of Iraqi-born Chicago Assyrians had volunteered for the war.

Joseph Gemayez, a specialist in the U.S. Army, addressed the rally, saying: "Iraq will be liberated. I'm going back to Assyria, the land between the rivers. Keep all of our troops in your prayers because they are doing it for the right reasons. This is not a war for oil. This is not a war for any of the wrong reasons. There are women who have been gang-raped. There are people whose rights have been violated."

Gemayez also expressed nationalist aspirations. "It's time for the Assyrian nation to come back to its land and form a nation of its own called Assyria," he said to loud cheers and applause. "We should all together write letters to Washington, D.C., stating that, when we liberate Iraq, the Assyrians should at least get a piece of land over there that we can call our own."

Not everyone there was calling for immediate statehood. "For now we would like to have our rights ? we would love to see Assyrians being recognized in Iraq, that's our hope right now," said Benjamin Samir, a currency exchange clerk.

The speeches were frequently punctuated by outbursts from the crowd. "We lost our country because we are Christian!" one man shouted. Others chanted, "Down with Saddam!"

One demonstrator, who identified himself only as Jendo, a doctor, said Assyrians had been massacred by Muslims throughout the 20th century, most recently by Saddam. "I have the names of 180 villages that were destroyed in the 1980s ? all the churches, all the houses. People were moved and some people are missing until now."

Some demonstrators refused to speak on the record for fear of retribution against their families in Iraq. Asked whether they thought Saddam reads the Forward, one man replied, seemingly seriously, that the Iraqi dictator "reads everything."

Several demonstrators told the Forward that Israel and Jews should support the Assyrian cause. "If the Israeli people support our people to get back our country, then the Israeli people will be tougher in the Middle East. They will have more freedom," said George Atto, a taxi driver.

"Who's related to the Israelis in the Middle East more than us?" Atto said. "We have a prayer in church, "Allah barech la bnei yisrael" ? "God bless the people of Israel."

When asked about the policies of Prime Minister Sharon, George Khoshaba, a factory worker, said: "I support him 100%. He is doing the right thing. To protect his own people, his country."

Such views are common in the Assyrian community, said Peter Dagher, a former White House aide and Assyrian activist. "Many Assyrians are not pro-Arab," he said. "Their views and those of Arabs are not the same. In that part of the world they look at Israel as an example of what to do, rather than what not to do."

Jewish and Assyrian paths have crossed before. In 1943 the American Zionist leader Hayim Greenberg was approached by an Assyrian activist seeking help in their quest for independence. Greenberg later wrote of his misgivings, wryly recalling that the Assyrians' ancient forebears shared some blame for the Jews' modern plight.

More recently, the California-based Assyrian National Congress appeared jointly with Hadassah before a United Nations committee in January 2000 to apply for recognition as nongovernmental organizations. Hadassah was accepted, but the Assyrian group could not overcome Arab hostility.

Still, there are profound cultural similarities between Assyrians and Jews. Assyrians this week celebrated their New Year, Kha B'Nissan, the first day of the month of Nissan, a date described in the Mishna as one of four New Years of Judaism. And while neo-Aramaic is much changed from its ancient counterpart, many words remain the same.

The cultural affinities arise from the fact that Aramaic was the lingua franca of the ancient Near East prior to the Arab conquest, said Samuel Fox, a linguist and author of "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Jilu." Over the centuries the Arabic language and Muslim religion became dominant in what is now Iraq. "The Assyrians were people who retained their Christian identity and traditional language, mainly in the mountainous region near the Iran-Iraq-Turkish border, in Iranian Azerbaijan, and in the plain of Mosul," Fox said.

While many Assyrians continue to dream about self-determination, Dagher said, their main concern is ensuring the safety of their brethren in a post-Saddam Iraq. "If I thought it wouldn't hurt our cause, I would be pushing for an Assyrian state, but I think we're not organized enough, we're not there. We don't have our own Ed Jacobson, just yet," he said, referring to President Truman's Jewish friend, who was instrumental in persuading the president to recognize the nascent Jewish state.
 
Dear Fred,

When saying 'Muslims are intolerant' I expected you to rely on common sense and make a basic assumption, being that by saying 'Muslims are intolerant' I mean in todays world, at this moment, in this conjecture of time, Muslims are most definitely and obviously intolerant. But through time, this can be amended. It takes years and generations for change to happen.
 
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