Mar Bawai's mass/forum in Toronto....

Enki

Enki

Active member
One word......AMAZING!

For the first time since I've been a Christian I FINALLY understood the razeh. His words were amazingly put. The inclusion of a few english words to help those understand his message even more clearly was a great touch. His topic about Shohara (Pride) was phenominal. I can't even put to words how I felt listening to him. For one day, I understood what it means to be a christian; what christianity means.

His speach after the mass was beyond amazing. Every question, no matter what it was, was answered. But not just answered in a way to dismiss it, he answered in a way where you were compleatly satisfied with it and had no rebuttle. You could not argue with it.

I truely wish more people turned out for this inspirational mass. I can honestly say, I FINALLY see Mar Bawai's vision and his goal. I hope and pray we stick with it because his message of khoyada (unity) is something that we must listen to.

My favourite moment (there were many believe me) was when he said he was deeply saddened by those that use the comment about Mar Bawai wanting to make us Catholic and that he's a Catholic as something of an insult and degrading. I hope and pray that we get a large turnout of youth this Tuesday. All I ask is for you to listen to both sides of the argument before you decide.

I have made my decision......I have heard Mar Dinkha/Mar Emannuel and now I have finally heard Mar Bawai.

I can honestly say from the bottom of my heart that Mar Bawai's message is the most powerful and SPIRITUAL than the others. This does not mean I do not like Mar Dinkha/Mar Emannuel. I still have respect for them as Patriarch and Bishop, but their message is wrong and needs to be changed. Mar Bawai's message is the best thing I have heard by ANY Assyrian since reading the teachings from the likes of Naum Faik and David Perly. It has brought back hope of a united church under one mission and one goal.....eternal life.

I hope to see everyone at the Tuesday event in Toronto. Give this a chance! Don't be ignorant. What harm will come if you hear what his teaching is? Don't make the assumptions until you hear it from his mouth.

I can't wait!
 
riza im happy you reaped so much from the mass...isnt that what church should be all about! mar bawai makes this the priority of his sermon and leaves everything non-christian related to his discussion forums afterwards

your words put a smile on my face  :clap:

God Bless brother!
 
Thank you khimos, baklawa and RadRides.

Its just unfortunate that we had a relatively small turnout (just over 100, maybe close to 200) people. I was seriously hoping for a much MUCH larger congregation with the youth adding up to the majority. Its alright though. The message he sent hit home to many people. In fact, a lady sitting infront of me was weeping during his speach and even during the question and answer period. Mar Bawai's words touched her deeply and I guess she could not hold back her tears. I hope they are tears of joy and not remorse but in any event, he brought her tears and she seemed very captivated by the entire experiance.

I have to add this....

During the mass and speaches, everytime I looked in Mar Bawai's eyes, they were always shining. It could be the lights, but I only seemed to notice it on him and not even those beside him.

Oh and his body guard....lol nice! He didn't really need one. There were enough people there where if someone tried to do something, some serious butt whooping would've taken place.
 
It is great that the Former Bishop is able to satisfy your thirst for Christian knowledge and Assyrian Unity by his choice of words, his selective use of English words to help you understand better and even having shining eyes to provide you with more inspiration.

Unfortunately, I did not experience the same emotions as you when I attended one of his information sessions recently. In fact, even my friends were surprised at the former bishop's direct complaints against the insitution (ACOE) that offered him so much support and shaped the former bishop into who he is today. Now many of his supporters claim that he is making constructive criticism for the betterment of the ACOE.

However, I would argue that undermining the ACOE and publicly scrutinising its leadership is counter productive and simply self serving.

I would still argue that actions speak louder than words. The former bishop was supposedly an active member of the ACOE leadership. Over the 21 years of service, what tangible benefits did he bring to the Christian faith, his Diocese or the wider Assyrian nation? Self education and beautiful rhetoric???

The former bishop was offered one of the richest Diocese in the ACOE and yet his visions and enlightening sermons over the years only led to more division, more debt, less membership and more involvement in political arguments such as whether our title should be Assyrian/Chaldean etc. Yet the growth of the ACOE was neglected at best during those years.

So once again I ask the question, where are the fruits of the former bishop's labour? Are we united? Are his supporters better Christians? Have his teachings led to progress or prosperity of the Assyrian people or the institution he represented?

Otherwise, if it is simple rhetoric that will bring our community closer to GOD, then by all means, let the bishop formally step down from the ACOE, as he no longer shares the same visions and goals, give back the property that belongs to the ACOE, and continue his sermon under his own Christianmovement. I would encourage all Christians to attend for personal enlightment.
 
khayet Dr Mar Bawai Soro...a true man of God. chebo!

hey sheyno why dont you go and find out what mar bawai wrote his thesis about (ill give you a clue its not about himself), find another bishop that has a phd (from a respected instution) yet alone written his thesis and defended it titled "apostolic origins of the church of the east"

in a prior post you spoke about your family leaving his parish...why did you return to an information session if you had left the church ? doesnt make sense, your either not telling the truth or inconsistent. anyways we dont care this topic is about the toronto visit!

you speak about properties and finances...well if mar bawai was unsuccessful in leading his diocese then why do his brothers bishop meelis and bishop odisho want to obtain $14m worth of assets. find me another diocese with limited members like san jose which has more than US$14m of assets.

thanks and please stop ruining this thread.
 
Khimos ~ I am offering a different personal view on the topic of the former bishop's sermons/speeches.

I like to hear things directly from the source as opposed to make judgements from hearsay and gossip. Hence the reason for my attendance. Aren't the former bishop's supporters asking us to attend his sessions and judge for ourselves? So how am I being inconsistent. I love the ACOE and am very proud of its achievements over the centuries. When my family walked away from the Bishop's Diocise, that did not mean I undermined his leadership or scrutinised the ACOE. I trust his holiness Mar Dinkha and the Holy Synod in running the operations and if I didn't agree with them (including the former bishop), that didn't mean I would continue to work against the bishop or the ACOE. Can we not see that our community needs to start working towards national goals as opposed to personal ones.

FYI ~ as I said in a previous post, I would completely support the former bishop if he was making organic changes within the ACOE and not directly opposing its leadership. ACOE is bigger than any individual. I trust the future of my Church in a Holy Synod where the democratic process ensures better decision making; as opposed to allow every bishop who doesn't agree with the democratic decisions to bring into question the validity of the process/judgements. If you fail to see the shortcomings of the precedent that you propose (ie leading to more division and destruction of the Church) then lets just agree to disagree.

In terms of finances, it is mere common sense that the value of the ACOE properties has increased considerably over the past 21 years. In case you haven't noticed, there has been a property boom over the past 5 to 10 years. The more pertinent question is, if we take your proposition at face value, ie the former bishop was successful in growing the California Diocise, who was he doing this for, the ACOE or for his personal gain? I think any man of God and a defender of truth and justice would deem that the work was always for the institution he represented. The people donated money for the ACOE not for the former bishop. Do you seriously think that is not the case?

If so, then the bishop should walk away from ACOE and hand back the properties. A Holy Synod decision of 10 versus 1 has been handed down. I would respect the former bishop if he was to start his own movement and collect new donations and support for people who follow his ideolgy and visions, given that his views are not in line with the ACOE leadership ("his other 10 brothers"). Does this not make logical sense? ACOE is bigger than any single individual and all collections/donations are for the betterment of the ACOE not the individuals forming its leadership.
 
thanks shami for your beautiful words...truely a women with maturity and filled with God's love. through people like you and riza we can see the need and hunger for preaching the Gospel as mar bawai has pursued in his ministry

Sheyno said:
FYI ~ as I said in a previous post, I would completely support the former bishop if he was making organic changes within the ACOE and not directly opposing its leadership. ACOE is bigger than any individual. I trust the future of my Church in a Holy Synod where the democratic process ensures better decision making; as opposed to allow every bishop who doesn't agree with the democratic decisions to bring into question the validity of the process/judgements. If you fail to see the shortcomings of the precedent that you propose (ie leading to more division and destruction of the Church) then lets just agree to disagree.
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what more organic is a change to preach the gospel ? mar bawai has been trying to reform the church towards accountability, unity and modernisation of the "takhseh". the opposition of the leadership was because of breaches in canon law. forgiving bishop aprem was contrary to the sunhados of the church. in october 2005 synod mar bawai was ordered to stop doing bible studies. they told him to stay away from the chaldean church and to stop preaching unity. that is why he opposed the leadership, because the leadership contradicted the word of God. as proven in the court hearing earlier this year by bishop meelis the word of God is above any authority including the patriach.

you may trust the future of your church in a synod, but my response is that the synod needs to respect the word of God. the role of the synod isnt to self govern, but to implement God's purpose on earth. judgement needs to be inspired and for the benefit of the church. commanding mar bawai to leave within 72 hours because of two (personal) letters doesnt sound like a very christian or Godly decision. thus the division, hurt and anger is a response to the synod's poor decision and not mar bawai's actions.

Sheyno said:
In terms of finances, it is mere common sense that the value of the ACOE properties has increased considerably over the past 21 years. In case you haven't noticed, there has been a property boom over the past 5 to 10 years. The more pertinent question is, if we take your proposition at face value, ie the former bishop was successful in growing the California Diocise, who was he doing this for, the ACOE or for his personal gain? I think any man of God and a defender of truth and justice would deem that the work was always for the institution he represented. The people donated money for the ACOE not for the former bishop. Do you seriously think that is not the case?
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the mere commonsense you speak about also applies to the accusations you make about mar bawai's financial management. you spoke to more debt being accumilated, but you didnt mention for one second the increase in total wealth of the diocese's assets. did you know that the church property in san jose had been offered for sale but mar bawai refused. he made the right decision and the diocese has reaped the rewards of the property boom. also remember properties in ceres were purchased under the administration of mar bawai. let me also remind you that mar bawai was successful in gaining a block of land worth $800,000 behind the mar yousip parish for FREE late last year. an instant benefit of $800k because of a smart team of people alongside mar bawai and good commonsense judgement. let me also remind you that in sydney bishop meelis sold a property back in the 1990s for just over a million dollars. today that property is worth about $10m.

mar bawai studied in rome and earned a wage of $1500 per month while other bishops around the world live in multi million dollar houses with penthouses and mansions. can you please remind me where mar bawai lives now...is he not homeless and living with his sister ? somebody with greed for money wouldnt do what he has done. this is truely a noble man. God bless the church faithful who donated money...but what about the bishop who has donated his life and freedom ?

Sheyno said:
If so, then the bishop should walk away from ACOE and hand back the properties. A Holy Synod decision of 10 versus 1 has been handed down. I would respect the former bishop if he was to start his own movement and collect new donations and support for people who follow his ideolgy and visions, given that his views are not in line with the ACOE leadership ("his other 10 brothers"). Does this not make logical sense? ACOE is bigger than any single individual and all collections/donations are for the betterment of the ACOE not the individuals forming its leadership.
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let me remind you that when Jesus Christ was put on trial the overwhelming response was to crucify him. the majority that you speak of supported the crucifixtion of our Lord because it was God's will. likewise the decision against mar bawai was part of God's will to open our eyes to the corruption within the synod. mar bawai is not about starting another movement but about unity, accountability and reform. let us also remember that the synod has made mistakes in the past. the synod's decision to leave the patriachal seat within one family, the dismissal of mar dadishu and others are aparent when you look deep into it. we respect and love the synod, however only when the synod fulfills the word of God (its ultimate purpose)
 
Shami ~ 21 years of service is a long time to be "planting seeds". His own brothers have handed a judgement and claim that these "plantings of the seeds" have not been transparent. So once again the questions of trust and truth and cover ups arises. I trust 10 Bishops over 1 and find it sad that the former bishop's supporters continue to focus on Mar Meelis and Mar Odisho, when the Holy Synod comprises of 8 other members.

Could it be possible that all 10 other brothers are wrong in their judgement? Are you claiming that none of the other 10 members of the Holy Synod could share in the same visions of the former bishop? Are they all blind or do we at some stage trust their judgements? When will our people finally learn to support the democratic process and abide by a due and fair process?

My ancestors were achievers and believed actions speak louder than words.

Can you please enlighten us about his proposition, given that you were united with it? What are the tangible steps (as opposed to popular rhetoric) that are required to achieve the visions of the former bishop? Has he been able to bring closer our families and communities? How long do we have to wait for the "seeds" to grow? How does he propose to unite with his 10 brothers? If they don't share in his visions, then by turning his back on the family which has made him who he is and scrutinising them, is he not simply creating divisions?
 
Khimos: your posts continue to discuss personal matters of the clergy as opposed to the ACOE.

I don't care where our bishops live, what transactions they conduct, what cars they drive etc.

I say thank you to the former bishop for making good transactions and choices for the ACOE. That is and was the purpose of his vocation (on top of serving God of course)! I hope he continues to work for the betterment of the ACOE.

When other bishops err, then similarly, I am disappointed about the opportunity cost or the negative impact.

We have a Holy Synod that regulates such affairs. When there are errors or mismanagement, we have to trust the Holy Synod with the responsibility of making the right decision. That is what good management is about. We cannot make allegations that all 10 members of the Holy Synod were wrong. To draw your proposal to its logical conclusion would mean that either we remove all 10 members of the Holy Synond and place the future of the ACOE with the former bishop; or if everytime there is an issues that is discussed at the Holy Synod, then bishops should have a right to undermine such decisions.

Surely in this day and age, we believe that good leaders are good communicators and should be able to influence the direction of an organisation? If the former bishop has such strong communication skills and is driven by the Holy Spirit, then he should have been able to influence the ACOE hierarchy? At what stage do we stop comparing him to Jesus Christ. No one in the ACOE has condemned him. If you read his letter to the Patriarch, it is very strikingly visible how disrespectful the letter to Mar Dinkha was. This is disappointing. I expected much more from a man who is professing love and humility. His allegations against his brothers was also very disppointing. His presumptions of guilt against other bishops is discouraging. Is this your understanding of love, compassion, forgiveness and accountability? Is this the Word of God that he spreads and yet his actions seem to be void of?

Finally, it is sad that everytime we discuss a certain possible shortcoming of the former bishop, we are provided comparisons with Mar Meelis and Mar Odisho. This isn't a race amongst the Bishops. We hope that they all work towards the growth and development of the ACOE!
 
Shami: Thank you for the summarised statements. They are beautiful thoughts indeed.

I don't think anyone in the ACOE does not share in the visions of being able to share mass with our fellow Assyrians (Chaldeans and Suryoyo). I don't think ACOE was avoiding unity. I think working transparently would have been a better course of action. Do we seriously think all 5 priests studying in Rome were also lying about the former bishop contacting them and proposing changes without the full knowledge of the Holy Synod. Where does this conspiracy theory end?

Democracy is more than a "cool" idea. If it isn't reasonable, what is the alternative? If a single bishop does not agree or see eye-to-eye with his fellow brothers, how do you propose to resolve such a situation? This is the heart of the matter.

How can you propose a solution when 10 versus 1 members of the Holy Synod do not come to an understanding? Can you PLEASE offer a tangible solution?
 
I appreciate all of your comments and debates but ummm.....this isn't ment to be a debate topic...lol Just an open expression of my feelings/thoughts of the Toronto Mass.

There are about a hundred to a thousand other posts here that you can use to debate Mar Bawai's actions. All I can say in his defence is that after today's mass, I finally understood a razeh. He seeks to unite all three churchs under "Eta Madinkheta". Just as we have 3 of them at the moment. Sourgada Ateeqa (7th Day), the 25's, and the Madinkhayeh Chaldayeh.

The tricky part in all this is the simple fact that they each have their own patriarch with the Chaldeans having the Pope as their highest. Thats it.

What he's stressing is that our language, habits, even church customs to an extent, are ALL similiar and many are infact identicle. There is no difference so why the divison? Thats his goal. To unite.

In all sincerity, I dont know if you came into the session with an open heart or not Sheyno, but if you came in there stubborn and firmly sticking to what the ACOE stands by and your comitment to them, then you would have picked up nothing. My uncle was ripping into Mar Bawai and saying he did this and he did that and that he wants to take us to Rome...etc.

I asked him, have you ever heard Mar Bawai speak? - No
Have you ever met him in person after he became a bishop and spoken to him? - No
Well then, if you didn't talk to him, who told he he wants to go to Rome and do the things you claim he wants to? - Well you see........

And the excuses go on. So and so said it to so and so.....you get the idea.

Like I said, keep this post about his visit to Toronto. If we want to have another debate on this issue, feel free to start a new post or PM each other. I hope I dont sound rude or offensive because thats not what I'm trying to do. I just dont want the meaning of this post to be changed into another fight/argument like that ones past.

Thank you everyone, and please, keep the arguments coming. By debating, we learn. By discussing, we grow.

Khayah eta madinkheta. O'naterokhoon baban Qadisha.
 
Sheyno said:
We have a Holy Synod that regulates such affairs.
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and the synod is regulated by the sunhados. so far the decision to remove mar bawai has had no mention to breaches of the sunhados. the state of california cannot punish me if i havent broken the law, despite their power to enforce the law. its simple, not complicated.

Sheyno said:
When there are errors or mismanagement, we have to trust the Holy Synod with the responsibility of making the right decision. That is what good management is about.
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my question to you is what happens when the synod makes a mistake... when there are errors in management by the synod?

Sheyno said:
Surely in this day and age, we believe that good leaders are good communicators and should be able to influence the direction of an organisation?
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the synod has failed to communicate the real motives or removing mar bawai (personal hatred). somebody like qasha antwan calling followers of mar bawai "khampeh" isnt a good communicator. going on dadisho tv and rubishing mar bawai isnt a good form of communication. initiating a court trial and wasting millions of dollars while our people starve in the middle east doesnt make sense.

good leaders are those accountable to their decisions....

Marian Anderson
Leadership should be born out of the understanding of the needs of those who would be affected by it.
 
Anki, your experience really mirrored my own, the first time I heard Mar Bawai speak. I also was not ready to make my decision until I heard every side. I can honestly say I was offended by many things the "ACOE" side (if you want to call it that) had to say, both in and out of Church. Although I know that not every person that opposes Mar Bawai does it in such a vindictive way, I felt like what was said by certain people was enough to dissuade me from listening further. I am, however, so glad you were moved by Mar Bawai?s words, as he probably reignited sentiments you have been feeling for a long time, on your own.

Did you ever feel more at home in a church than today? I never felt as accepted and loved, and really belonging to the people around me, than when I went to a mass conducted by Mar Bawai. And it was in a Korean-run (Catholic) church, my first time there. It's not the walls of the church, or the statues, or the pictures (although ACOE doesn't have these anyway) that make it home, it's the prayer and the unity of the congregation, and it's held together like a glue by its leaders.

I have questioned things within the Churches for a very long time now. I never felt I understood anything, and the truth is, I never really cared until this entire issue of "church fighting" and division came up and the young people around me started talking about it. The youth of my church dwindled away and found other interests and other areas to devote their time. I was one of them.

Even my parents couldn't convince me to join a church-run youth group, or attend its functions and parties, and especially not to partake in mass and communion. I chose rather to go to churches that held mass in English, and were much shorter, because I never understood the purpose of sitting in a church for two hours and not understanding the majority of the words spoken and read.

Many ACOE supporters (and the A = both Assyrian and Ancient in this case), will tell you that the liturgy remaining in the old language is to conserve the "mystery" of our religion. We are not mystics, however, and no one wants to explain what is specifically meant by this ?mystery.? In some cases, the Catholic (Roman) churches argue that mystery surrounding the Trinity of the God-head should be maintained and not questioned too openly because it causes too much possible doubt. I also look at the Trinity in a mysterious way, and it is difficult to grasp completely, but the idea makes sense in my heart more than it does in my head, and so I accept it as much as I can. But the mass should not be a mystery. Prayer should not be a mystery. Communication between church leaders and parishioners should not be a mystery. The praising of our gracious Lord should not be a mystery.

I always felt I was in the wrong place when I sang those prayers I never understood, and when I first heard the mass in the modern tongue, and I finally realized what all the ceremony was about, and what each action and each pause and each prayer meant, I felt something inside of me finally wake up. I felt like I did when I heard the mass in English and was so moved by the priest's eloquent explanation of a bible passage and how it can relate to our lives today. That is what is meant by the need for change and reform. No one is saying we want to throw all traditions away, especially not the profound ones that make us who we are, but should we close the door to progress so easily? Should we lose our youth to other churches (or worse, to the streets) just because we must never change? Change is sometimes necessary to survive; adaptation to new circumstances allows us to continue more successfully.

Anyone opposed to the changes we ask for doesn?t completely comprehend the effects of inaction and stagnancy: the eventual decay of our Church. We already see it today, less and less Assyrian children speaking Assyrian, less of them understanding the culture and the customs, and this is seen most in the Church. For every young Assyrian that is faithful and loves church and attends it and defends it, there are ten others that would rather sleep, or even work, than go to church or learn about their ancestors' religion. This isn't a fact you can simply deny, just look around you, unless you are in a bubble, most of your friends are probably not enthusiastic about church. Without change, do you really think our children would care enough to keep our churches alive, whether they be Assyrian, Ancient, or Chaldean Churches of the East?

An institution can only live if there are people to maintain it, but with our elders dying every day, and not being replaced by others that care, sheer probability reveals that the Church does not have a long future. That's why I agree so much with Mar Bawai, that's why he has touched me more than any other member of any other church, that's why, because of him, I ignore all of the other problems I have with the Church (both philosophical, theological, and personal) and simply decide to focus on the loving messages of our Lord. Christ's words, although changed over centuries, manipulated in some cases, and seemingly impure in others, still find their way to me because I finally opened my ears and started listening. I learned, through careful reading and understanding (and not just the bible), that Christ's most important messages (and I've said this before many times) were about love, compassion, and respect, for all.

Regardless of differences, and disagreements, we are brothers and sisters in our humanhood. If we believe in a God such as ours, if we credit God with all of creation, then we must admit that we were all designed by the same divine hand, we are all related to one another in this way, no matter what name or church or religion (or even non-religion). That is why I never understood how much hate can exist within a so-called Christian heart, since it goes against the core Christian beliefs, the ones that are most important in leading "good" lives. This is why I could never say I hate someone that doesn't support Mar Bawai, how I could never say I hate someone who solely supports the ACOE, because just as I am passionate about my beliefs and defenses, these people are the same in their convictions, and respect is due.

I have never seen more Assyrians aware of these issues, never seen so much concern and learning among our youth as today, and I can say it probably started because of Mar Bawai. Sure, some might see division and destruction, but I, like Anki, only see hope. Every cloud has a silver lining, and our people have had centuries full of clouds, but we know the sun is always there, even if we can't see it, and maybe someday in my lifetime, I might see some of it shine on us. I can only hope and pray for that happy day.

As always, God bless us all.
 
Riza, I am so proud of you for drawing closer to God.? This is why I support and am for Mar Bawai because of people like you that understand the Word so much better now.? He is a holy man, He is close to God.? That shining in his eyes is Christ within him.? We are to be conformed into Christs likeness, to be just like our Redeemer and Saviour.? Mar Bawai is following that example and is leading in a very profound way.? God is working in this church, and it isn't in mysterious ways as some are holding so tight to perserve (their "reward" as Jesus says will be given to them in time), Gods ways are clear cut.? We are to understand the liturgy and the Words being spoken in Church, no way around it.? We are to be motivated to seek, to see the Elders of the Church in their faith and say "I want that!"? The Church is the Body of Christ, the believers.? We are to be united under one Christ head.? God blesses those who draw closer to Him, thirst and hunger after Him.? Keep seeking and you will find and it will be in abundance!

Praise God!
 
Riza: I apologize if it seemed like I was starting an argument or debate. That is not my intention.

I love my Church and I did go to the information sessions with an open mind. I love the words of the former bishop and what they entail as an overriding objective. They are beautiful words that I think many ACOE members aspire and envision. I am simply asking for "reasons to believe". Whilst the rhetoric is beautiful, can we please also offer some tangible solutions to our current predicament.

As fas I am aware, the ACOE shares in the same visions of what you have described "having a common language, habits, even church customs to an extent" means opportunity to become closer. But what does this mean in practice. Whilst some of the other churches don't appear to be coming closer to us, in fact the Chaldeans seem to be determined to remain separate ethnically/politically as well as religiously, how can we continue to criticize ACOE?

Why couldn't we have continued our process towards Unity with more transparency and involved the Holy Synod and all ACOE members in the planning process?

In terms of finally learning what our "razeh" are etc, there are youth committees and church gathering in each Diocise that provides such answers and enlightenment. I wish more of us would attend to learn such traditions and meanings and not assume that the ACOE is stale or out of touch with the people.

Lets all work together for the betterment of ACOE and to fulfill God's plans for HIS people. This is the least we can do as a sign of respect for our forefathers who sacrificed so much more for our beloved ACOE.
 
Why couldn't we have continued our process towards Unity with more transparency and involved the Holy Synod and all ACOE members in the planning process?
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Have you asked the Elders of the ACOE?? I'm curious because they have been asked many times over and refused to change a bit.? I have personal friends that have asked and they responded with a solid no.? Preserving old ways to them means more then relaying the Word of God to a hungry people.?

In terms of finally learning what our "razeh" are etc, there are youth committees and church gathering in each Diocise that provides such answers and enlightenment. I wish more of us would attend to learn such traditions and meanings and not assume that the ACOE is stale or out of touch with the people.
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I truly believe biblically it's the Elders position to reach out to the Church (Body of Believers).? Have they tried to set up meetings with us and motivated us to go?? Have they tried in the past to explain the differences through literature?? They know people ask questions from past experiences.? They know the youth was falling away.? Not one person tried to stop that, instead they cried about it.? Sorry, but that didn't get us anywhere until Mar Bawai decides to do something about it and gets nailed for it.? I have gone to different churchs that make it a point to reach out to the church and are very successful.? There shouldn't be any excuses.?


 
Khimos, I have provided you with my answer.

When the Holy Synod makes a decision, at some stage, our people have to learn to accept the decision makers' verdict and not continue to undermine them. This is not constructive and is a disppointing cutural problem we have. We cannot seem to accept anyone's authority and think we all should have a say in everything.

If my view, even if there is an error in judgement by a management, I will accept the decision and move on. This is the normal pratice in life. There are wrong decisions made in Governments, Judicial processes, Families and Churches. We have to accept the verdicts of a due process and simply move on. We have to stop the consipiracy theories in everything that happens. This is another shortcoming of our people.

I have asked you a simple question, "what is the alternative dispute resolution process you offer"? If the decision has been handed down by 10 against 1, how do you propose we resolve it. I am saying that we accept it and move on. That is the best solution for conflict resolution, is it not? Please advise of alternative?

Once again, if you read the letter from the former bishop, he states:

"For the safety of everyone and overall peace in the community, go to the courts and file your claim. There the case will be debated and judged in a civilized and lawful manner. Otherwise, we hold the Patriarch, and the hierarchy members and the opponents here in San Jose responsible for whatever happens".

So how can you blame the ACOE for wasting money when this was the solution offered by the former bishop. This is HIS letter, HIS words. Also, if you look at the court documentation, he was first to make an application in the Courts. So why do you keep suggesting that the ACOE is ONLY at fault.

Please for my sanity, tell me how else can we resolve this issue, without jeopardizing the ACOE institution. Because at the end of the day, that is the only interest I have, as opposed to which Bishop did what!

 
Claridy, why would the former bishop "get nailed" for involving the youth? This is again seems to be a scenario that is completely exaggerated. Which members of the Holy Synod has actually attacked the former bishop for getting in touch with the youth.

Which letter from the ACOE Complains against the former bishop doing this.

Claridy, my point is above all of these smaller issues. In fact, I don't think anyone would have stopped the fomer bishop or any of the Church Clergy from more proactively approaching the youth.

(i) My question is simply, "if a bishop does not see eye-to-eye with the Holy Synod" for good resaons or not, how do we resolve such issues? At what point do we stop renegade behaviour in our organisations? or will we always be prone to such conflicts?

(ii) In terms of transparency, my question again is whether we think that the 5 priests studying in Rome were all lying in their oath that the former bishop did not want to openly discuss his plans with the Holy Synod? This was a statement signed by the 5 priests. Are they all lying as well?

Can we please provide some logical answers to these questions as opposed to talking about beautiful visions of unity, love and accountability?

These are the actions that I am merely asking some feedback on? Do you have any reasonable explanations?
 
Sheyno,

There is no need to apologize. Your statements are respectfull and as such you are entitiled to them and in turn I will respect them.

To get back to your post about tangible work towards unity, the problem with the churchs stems from one thing.....Shoara (pride).

Mar Bawai's sermin today on shoara was amazing. He hit the nail right on the head. He said how those who live with pride and live up will be brought back down by God. Whereas those who live down will be brought up. Basically meaning those who hold their heads high and are full of pride are going to hell.

He used an analogy of a frog and birds.

The birds were migrating from Canada to Florida when one asked the frog why it did not go down to Florida with them. The frog said it would take too long for her to hop all the way there. Just before the birds were about to fly off, the frog came back and said "I have an idea! Each of you birds hold this stick with your beaks and start flying. I'll grab on with my mouth and we'll fly together." The birds though that wasn't a bad idea and took the stick in their mouths. The frog held on to the middle with its mouth. As they flew someone below said "Wow! Look at how smart those birds are. They put the stick in their mouths and asked the toad to hang on. Those sure are some really smart birds!" The frog hearing this, shouted "it was my idea....."

What I'm trying to get at is, IF our three churchs unite, we would have one Patriarch. The question then is, who will be willing to relenquish his seat? I highly doubt any of the three would step up and say "Me, for the sake of unity" If all three patriarchs were so keen on uniting and unity, all three would step up and say "I am willing to relenquish my title as Patriarch for the Church of __________ for the sake of a united church".

Pride. There is too much of that in everyday life. But above all, too much within the church hiarchy. As Mar Bawai says, our bishops and priests need to be accountable. If they preach something, they must live by it. Otherwise its like a father who goes gambling or smokes/drinks and then comes back and says to his son/daughter not to gamble; not to smoke/drink because its bad for you.

"Well dad, if its bad for us, how come you do it?"

I hope you all get a chance to listen to his sermon when it comes online. You will not be dissapointed.

----------------------

Claridy,

Thank you once again for your kind words. You're a truely nice woman and I wish more and more people had the pureness and spirituality as you possess.

Your brother,
Anki
 
Claridy said:
In terms of finally learning what our "razeh" are etc, there are youth committees and church gathering in each Diocise that provides such answers and enlightenment. I wish more of us would attend to learn such traditions and meanings and not assume that the ACOE is stale or out of touch with the people.
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I truly believe biblically it's the Elders position to reach out to the Church (Body of Believers).? Have they tried to set up meetings with us and motivated us to go?? Have they tried in the past to explain the differences through literature?? They know people ask questions from past experiences.? They know the youth was falling away.? Not one person tried to stop that, instead they cried about it.? Sorry, but that didn't get us anywhere until Mar Bawai decides to do something about it and gets nailed for it.? I have gone to different churchs that make it a point to reach out to the church and are very successful.? There shouldn't be any excuses.?
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I have to agree with Clairdy on this one.

Unfortunatly, many of us don't speak or even understand Assyrian very well. The razeh that are held are very traditional using very traditional words. Simply put, if the pastor is not from your tribe, good luck understanding.

In terms of the youth groups, I dont think there is an active youth group in Toronto. They only have the choir.

I can recall a fellow who tried to start a bible study group within the Church and was turned down. The reason? He wanted the bible study to be taught primarily in English so that everyone understood. Although I love Mar Emannuel with my heart, he seems to be more of a dictator pushing people away from his church (and God at times) than bringing them in.
 
riza o shourba said:
There are about a hundred to a thousand other posts here that you can use to debate Mar Bawai's actions. All I can say in his defence is that after today's mass, I finally understood a razeh. He seeks to unite all three churchs under "Eta Madinkheta". Just as we have 3 of them at the moment. Sourgada Ateeqa (7th Day), the 25's, and the Madinkhayeh Chaldayeh.

What he's stressing is that our language, habits, even church customs to an extent, are ALL similiar and many are infact identicle. There is no difference so why the divison? Thats his goal. To unite.
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I don't know whether you intend this post to be debatable or not.  If you don't, ignore the following question:

How has Mar Bawai practically reached the above goals he/you outlined in a closer way than the already established Syriac churches?  Saying the right thing is important, but practically how has this sort of unity been achieved?

My opinion, which again you can ignore, is that you were carried away emotionally with ideal phrases/words of unity, which pure as they are (and which I share too and many assyrians as well) , were'nt backed up with a feasible plan.  Also, reality is that a new splinter has been created rather than the already divided syriac church been brought any closer.
 
My only answer to you had is this.

Its early.

I'll be honest in saying, I dont know how he'll achieve this. What I do know is, whatever it is that he decides MAY work to achieve the unity, as long as his goal is pure, he has my backing. Obviously, I'd love for him to have had a "game plan" as to what he plans on doing to achieve this. But realistically its too soon. He was only recently booted out of the ACOE. It hasn'e even been a year.

In all fairness to Zowaa, its been a few years now since the war in Iraq and even longer since her existance, yet we (at least I) still dont know what it wants to do, let alone how to achieve it.

The thing is, if we're always questioning the rashional and questioning his motives, we may NEVER reach that elusive goal we call "unity". Give him time. When this plan is devised and we know exactly what he plans on doing to achieve it, then we can discuss weather or not it is feasable or not.

I hope I answered your question. I hope you see what I mean by it.
 
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