Is Islam A Religion of Peace?
- Thread starter Enki
- Start date
I don't think I'll watch all of this, but let me quickly say that the Quran and the Old Testament are both quite violent and contain material I find too explicit to be a message from "God". The New Testament introduces us to a more mellow and formal God.
Its not the idea that makes the religion, its the people's interpretation of it. Islam (same as other religions) can be a violent religion in the wrong hands, however millions of Muslims today are peaceful people, millions others have been brainwashed by their media and even though they might not become terrorists, they have a rebellious nature and blame the West for everything bad in their lives, similar to how we blame the Jews for most of our problems, and almost identical to the radical millions in the Southern states in the US.
Most human beings are weak and it takes very strong willed people to follow strict religious books to the letter, our weakness allows our feelings to creep up on us and we end up succumbing to anger, revenge, lack of forgiveness, etc which aren't something that many religion teach.
Its not the idea that makes the religion, its the people's interpretation of it. Islam (same as other religions) can be a violent religion in the wrong hands, however millions of Muslims today are peaceful people, millions others have been brainwashed by their media and even though they might not become terrorists, they have a rebellious nature and blame the West for everything bad in their lives, similar to how we blame the Jews for most of our problems, and almost identical to the radical millions in the Southern states in the US.
Most human beings are weak and it takes very strong willed people to follow strict religious books to the letter, our weakness allows our feelings to creep up on us and we end up succumbing to anger, revenge, lack of forgiveness, etc which aren't something that many religion teach.
I know Sam Shamoun very well, he is very gifted. He will tear apart any muslims argument of Islam being a peacful religion, nonetheless a religion anyone would want to turn to. It's really a religion from satan and any ex-muslim will tell you that.
You should see Sam in action, he's at Glenview Evangelical Church in Glenview, IL. On Golf and Shermer. His class is every Friday at 7:00pm (if not 7:30pm)
You should see Sam in action, he's at Glenview Evangelical Church in Glenview, IL. On Golf and Shermer. His class is every Friday at 7:00pm (if not 7:30pm)
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
The practical violence of Judaism + the hell-obsessed paranoia of Christianity = Islam.
The product is a composite horror story - far from being peaceful.
The only way Islam could be a peaceful religion is, perhaps, if Muslims took the Quran allegorically or resorted to some non-literal inference of interpretation. Of course, such an if statement is purely hypothetical and wishful, though not impossible - but surely not probable (at least now).
The product is a composite horror story - far from being peaceful.
The only way Islam could be a peaceful religion is, perhaps, if Muslims took the Quran allegorically or resorted to some non-literal inference of interpretation. Of course, such an if statement is purely hypothetical and wishful, though not impossible - but surely not probable (at least now).
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
Claridy said:
Oh ya - I can totally see those 'in the boat of Islam' conceding that Islam isn't a religion of peace, as I just have.
Your problem is, you're not just looking for a criticism of Islam. You're looking for a particular criticism which fits your criteria - you want to smuggle in a promotion of the Judaic-Christian religion. Any lip-disservice towards your religion, albeit criticizing Islam (the main priority), is not acceptable for your one-dimensional criteria. You impose the following axiom: a critique of Islam automatically implies a promotion of Christianity. There is no other antithesis for you. For those of us who think Judaic-Christianity is not the alternative - its just not good enough for your political dichotomy.
In other words, you're a cherry-picker looking for an intellectual critique that is your way or the highway. The last time I checked, this is not being objective. The fact you think someone who disagrees with your 'my way or the highway' worldview, is ignorant, reveals you exactly to be just as demagogic and ideological as the Islamic cult.
For some of us who at least try to be more rationally minded, we'd like to think there is a broader medium of choices which transcends the Abrahamic monopoly of truth.
Please. If you only knew. You have no idea what Islam, Judiasiam and ESPECIALLY Christianity is about. Jesus' claims aren't false. You can ask any of His followers. He's worked MIRACLES in many people's lives through out history. That's because He IS God. You can only sit from behind your computer and talk such nonsense because you don't know. To know would be to EXPERIENCE, and you haven't experienced Jesus. Hence your ignorance.
NO ONE has the Power to Save, BUT Jesus. Eat your heart out, He IS GOD and HE IS the ONLY WAY.
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
Claridy said:
I was pretty straightforward about Islam: it is the barbaric fabrication of a 7th century impostor. This is precisely the view of ex-Muslims such as Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq, and Ayan Hirsi Ali.
If I am ignorant by your definition, then I guess it makes the above names mentioned, ignorant as well.
As for Judaism and Christianity, this is not the topic of the thread.
Yawn.
I agree, Islam is a complete lie. But see, you brought up Christianity and Judiasim.
Don't throw that at me. You are ignorant about religion. If you weren't you wouldn't be comparing Islam with Christianity. That's the problem with you atheists. You compare one religion with another and think it's all the same. Just like Dawkins and the other "new atheists". New my shirma. It's the same ol' lies that satan keeps feeding all of you and you keep swallowing.
Like I said, eat your heart out. Just as all the signs are pointing to what Jesus said thousands of years ago, about today's world, it's happening as it's been written. I wouldn't say that's a yawn. And I bet you won't be yawning when you meet Him face to Face.
Don't throw that at me. You are ignorant about religion. If you weren't you wouldn't be comparing Islam with Christianity. That's the problem with you atheists. You compare one religion with another and think it's all the same. Just like Dawkins and the other "new atheists". New my shirma. It's the same ol' lies that satan keeps feeding all of you and you keep swallowing.
Like I said, eat your heart out. Just as all the signs are pointing to what Jesus said thousands of years ago, about today's world, it's happening as it's been written. I wouldn't say that's a yawn. And I bet you won't be yawning when you meet Him face to Face.
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
Claridy said:
It was Christianity (and Zoroastrianism) which introduced the idea of heaven and hell. Islam is not credited with founding this belief, only inheriting it.
Judaism, on the other hand, introduced us to the idea of stoning adulteresses, raping women, committing genocide, and inflicting war - all of which is Islam's collective ethic.
That is why I mentioned Christianity and Judaism, to show that Islam adopted the worse elements of its predecessors (that is the nature of how ideas evolve, they take the template of their antecedents and simply add or subtract from it. The same applies to the evolution of language). That was my only point - a point many ex-Muslim intellectuals (like Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, etc.) have also conceded to when explaining the origin of Islam (for crying out loud, Muhammad grew up around Christians and Jews, that's where he collected the stories of the Biblical prophets from).
Now, if you're going to tell me Judgment Day and the Judaic culture of barbarity are all phenomena unique to Islam and never existed before its inception - then just save your breath and don't waste my time, for the argument from personal incredulity doesn't appeal to me.
I never said Islam is identical to the other religions, I simply said it synthesized older ideas which belonged to the Abrahamic ancestors. That is how plagiarism works.
But then again, obviously I'm the ignorant one and you are the shining beacon of enlightenment.
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
What a great argument. I'm wrong because you say I'm wrong (plus the personal attack, again).
An objective person, that you are - and don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise
An objective person, that you are - and don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise
living water
New member
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi said:
Man Living Water, does the Truth set you free or what? EXCELLENT points. If only more people studied ALL aspects, truths and lies. How much more wise we'd be? Instead of throwing around bogus claims that have been heard and regurgitated over and over again. THIS is why I say, get a clue or many for that matter!
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
Oh ya. Since, asserting I'm wrong simply because you say I'm wrong and your beliefs are right - is obviously not regurgitation.
At least living water wasn't becoming insulting and throwing emotionally fatuous claims.
At least living water wasn't becoming insulting and throwing emotionally fatuous claims.
Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi
New member
Living Water:
I'm afraid you're under the impression that I was debating Christianity, when I wasn't. My only point was that Muhammad hijacked some fundamental tenets from the ancestral religions of his time (Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Judaism). That is typically what you do when you want to fabricate a new belief system; you plagiarize from the primitive beliefs which have survived up to your own time.
As you well know, Islam wasn't the first religion to invent the idea of eternally damning someone because they disagree with some divine authority. This was already a Christian idea. Islam simply modified this concept (replaced Jesus with Allah).
Now, you can go about the whole idea how Islam and Christianity are two different religions. You may argue its a difference of being a sinner and asking for the saviorship of Jesus. But that still doesn't say anything differential about the Christian and Muslim notion of sending someone to eternal punishment simply because they reject the existence of a cosmic dictatorship. I can accept that I 'sin' and that I'm an imperfect person, who needs to become better by the day. But, I can admit that without postulating I'm the property of some celestial polity who has the right to torture me after I die. That's the universal element in both religions which goes way beyond the simple doctrine of sin-abolition. Its not about being a sinner or imperfect person or thinking Muhammad is the last prophet. It's about accepting authoritarianism in both religions, then - and only then - do we start talking about the business of Jesus saving you from your sins. But that's only after you surrender your conscience to the totalitarian commission of this cosmic autocracy. The emancipation of sin is only a second priority, after enslaving yourself to the despotic rule of the heavens. That is what Islam replicated from Christianity and Zoroastrianism - uncritical submission to divine tyranny and dictatorship (whether 'sinner' or Muhammad's slave). After that starting point - only after - do we start to see the religions diverge in their doctrinal values.
But what they can both hold their hands together and say is: the creation is the inferior property of the creator. I don't think you're going to get a Muslim or Christian to ever battle it out on that one. That was my central argument.
And yes, you're right. I'm not an ignorant simple-minded Muslim. But that sure as hell doesn't make me - either - the member of any other organized system of indoctrination and fanaticism. I do not emancipate my conscience from one cult just so I can submit it to another.
I'm afraid you're under the impression that I was debating Christianity, when I wasn't. My only point was that Muhammad hijacked some fundamental tenets from the ancestral religions of his time (Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Judaism). That is typically what you do when you want to fabricate a new belief system; you plagiarize from the primitive beliefs which have survived up to your own time.
As you well know, Islam wasn't the first religion to invent the idea of eternally damning someone because they disagree with some divine authority. This was already a Christian idea. Islam simply modified this concept (replaced Jesus with Allah).
Now, you can go about the whole idea how Islam and Christianity are two different religions. You may argue its a difference of being a sinner and asking for the saviorship of Jesus. But that still doesn't say anything differential about the Christian and Muslim notion of sending someone to eternal punishment simply because they reject the existence of a cosmic dictatorship. I can accept that I 'sin' and that I'm an imperfect person, who needs to become better by the day. But, I can admit that without postulating I'm the property of some celestial polity who has the right to torture me after I die. That's the universal element in both religions which goes way beyond the simple doctrine of sin-abolition. Its not about being a sinner or imperfect person or thinking Muhammad is the last prophet. It's about accepting authoritarianism in both religions, then - and only then - do we start talking about the business of Jesus saving you from your sins. But that's only after you surrender your conscience to the totalitarian commission of this cosmic autocracy. The emancipation of sin is only a second priority, after enslaving yourself to the despotic rule of the heavens. That is what Islam replicated from Christianity and Zoroastrianism - uncritical submission to divine tyranny and dictatorship (whether 'sinner' or Muhammad's slave). After that starting point - only after - do we start to see the religions diverge in their doctrinal values.
But what they can both hold their hands together and say is: the creation is the inferior property of the creator. I don't think you're going to get a Muslim or Christian to ever battle it out on that one. That was my central argument.
And yes, you're right. I'm not an ignorant simple-minded Muslim. But that sure as hell doesn't make me - either - the member of any other organized system of indoctrination and fanaticism. I do not emancipate my conscience from one cult just so I can submit it to another.
I'm sorry, who's insulting? You've been more than insulting. Telling you that you are ignorant is not insulting you. When someone doesn't know what they are talking about, a certain subject, what does that make them, ESPECIALLY when they haven't experienced it first hand? The definition to ignorant is lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned. You don't have knowledge of God because you don't have the training, nor the experience. I'm ignorant in a lot of matters. I'll admit it, and I don't think it's insulting at all. In fact, it makes me want even MORE knowledge in other areas. I wish I had the brain capacity to learn more.
It's not that my beliefs are right and yours are wrong, it's about SEEING the difference that the True God has made in SO many people's lives - in your lifetime and through out history, and noticing the difference between One way and another. That's it. Regurgitation is being fed what Pastors have said and not investigating the claims for myself. I don't do that. I've experienced God first hand to know that He is the True God and He's shown me that His Word is consistent and True.
I don't sit here and say Islam is wrong because I think it's wrong, or someone has told me it's wrong. It's me doing the research and speaking to MANY who were Muslim and came to know Jesus. I've seen and heard MANY testimonies. A testimony is crucial part of an investigation. You see the evidence in a person's life, gather the info and come to a conclusion. Especially when that person so far beyond hope. Someone who use to hurt people, and hurt themselves, and that were miserable. Until the met Jesus and completely did a 180. Read Lee Strobel's book who was an Atheist and took this approach. He never thought he'd become a Christian. But he did the investigation, being a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, and then accepted Jesus. It took him 2 years, but God won his heart. It's called The Case for Christ.
The evidence is there for the taking. You just have to research it yourself and THEN you will see that you haven't the right way. That the right way is Only through Jesus Christ as He claimed and many have proclaimed thereafter knowing Him. It's a gift. You willfully accept it or reject it.
I'm not better than anyone else. If I could be less so that many can know more of Jesus, I would be and will try to be. He is the True Treasure.
living water
New member
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Iraqi_Irani_Al-Farabi said:
I see that you are a gifted person, use your God given common sense, seek and you shall find, knock and doors will be opened to you. Get to know good from bad,
out of flow of our hearts our mouths speak.
a good person brings out good things stored in his or her heart or memories, a bad persons and a LIAR is never consistant with his or her statement suddenly brings out negative and bad things stored in the heart no matter how hard trys to sound positive.
READ the Bible FIRST and then the FAKE koran and you will see the TRUTH and it will set you free.
Have a blessed day with JESUS WHOM IS:" THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, AND THE RESURRECTION"
JESUS CHANGES PEOPLE