Help Me Understand
- Thread starter gilbert
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the_dave
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Its not just about believing, we don?t believe blindly in something, the whole point with faith is that there is a point in its teachings, it gives you good moral and etics, a good life, how to treat other people around you and how to behave and appreciate everything in life and all the good things it gives us. All this, IF FOLLOWED RIGHT, will give you and all the people in the world a good life here on earth. There is in fact no better way to live than the way Jesus told us, everything and every other way have been tried and lived by others in the history and all those ways failed to match the way you live by the teachings of ex. Christianity. Again, by doing it the right way, and to do so you have to yourself, read the bible, understand and react, not just follow or listen to what other people tell you, because many of them use religion to control and manipulate people?
If anything or anyone else here on earth shows us a better way to live life then the way of Christianity, I would gladly listen to this man or this teaching, untill then i will belive in the teachings of jesus and life by it?.
Face it, there is no better way at the moment?
If anything or anyone else here on earth shows us a better way to live life then the way of Christianity, I would gladly listen to this man or this teaching, untill then i will belive in the teachings of jesus and life by it?.
Face it, there is no better way at the moment?
the_dave said:
According to you.
What about jesus' other messages that arent so pleasant? Do you believe in those? For example, no one will enter heaven unless they believe in jesus ONLY! And how gays are abominations, even though god created the ability to be gay. Do you believe in those or are you just picking out the good stuff and ignoring the rest?
Sounds like youre after teachings how of to gain peace of mind and live a meaning and pleasant life. If so, why dont you adopt teachings from other religions and ignore the bad too? Buddhism and Hinduism has quite a few good teachings too. In fact, Im pretty sure almost every religion has some good things to say.
Another question to you. After you seeking if the bible is a fact or do you just want good teachings from it and live by them?
the_dave
New member
gilbert said:
Jesus said that the only one who will se the kingdom of heaven is the one who believes in me, i other words, he who also believes in Jesus words. His teachings shows you the way to heaven. And Jesus didn?t say that Gay people are abominations, they are people that have another way of thinking which is not good for themselves and neither for their future or the future of humanity... I believe in everything Jesus said because there is a reason for them and there is sense in it. And yes I respect other religions because most of the religions are pretty much the same, they all share the same messages....
I try to live by what is said in the new testament, since those are his words and teachings...
the_dave said:
In your first post, your very first line was "Its not just about believing" yet you continually prove to yourself and I that it is about belief. Look at what you typed, its all about believing. You then say "the whole point with faith is that there is a point in its teachings". No apparently its not because you believe in the rest as well, such as "No one will come to the father except through me". So its not just about the teachings, you're also trying to reserve your seat in heaven.
God did say that gaying it up is an abomination.
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." - Leviticus 18:22.
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13.
By saying "I try to live by what is said in the new testament, since those are his words and teachings... ", you are calling god a liar. You know that its the same god right? The new and old testament. So that means you believe half of the bible to be true. Why dont you believe in the whole thing? The bible is the word of god, isnt it? If you dont believe in ONLY ONE THING from the bible, you are calling the bible imperfect and that god is a liar. Since the bible is supposed to be god's word and is supposed to be perfect, you disagreeing with only one verse says that it is not. Isnt the whole bible supposed to be the perfect word of god?
the_dave
New member
gilbert said:
First of all to live after something don?t you have to believe that it is right? I mean you don?t go and study in the university unless you believe that you will learn something or that it you will get you the good job that you want after you finish, or that it will give you something that is important to you. If you marry a woman you marry her not just because you love her but also because that you believe that she is the right one for you and you believe that you will spend your life with her right? I doubt that you will do something that you believe is wrong.
This is exactly the same thing, you have to believe in it to live by it, otherwise you just follow it like it is a law, like you are forced to belive in it. some laws maybe you believe are wrong or not as they should be according to you, but yet you have to follow them because they are law and all people in that state have to follow them even if it is against your believes. But this is not law, its a way of life and I believe that it is the right way, for my life and also for everyone and everything around me, because it will give us a good life...
Second of all, neither God or Jesus said that gay people and having homosexual intercourse is an abomination. the book of Leviticus is written by the Jewish priest that followed Moses. Since god created man and woman it is not ment for gay people to have sexual intercourse because this will in the long run be bad for our existence if to much people would turn gay, And from this the priests wrote the bible the way it is now, they wrote what their prophet thought was right, through the guidance of god and ex. the 10 commitments, and for the good of their own people. The book of Leviticus is part of Moses books. The old testament is not told by Jesus since it was written long before him, it is written by priests and prophets. And it is mostly laws and history of the Jews, it is originally the Jewish bible (the torah).
But there too prophets have had visions from god and then written how they thought people should live their life to have a good life, with the help of their visions from God. So yes the old testament is connected to god, but it is not written by God nor is everything said by god himself.
God have shown people how they should live (through visions and prophets, the bible itself is a gift from god and it is perfect in all ways, but as i said before everything is not said by god, since there is so much more in the bible then just the will of God... You can?t just take everything in the bible literally, is much deeper than that, and there is much in it that is metaphoric, especially the Old Testament...
And another thing about the Old Testament and the new testament. If god wanted us to continue to live by the old testament he would not have sent Jesus to teach the people the new way, and make the old testament better and easier for the people to understand. HE sent Jesus so that we would understand his will in a better way...
Belief is not a matter of choice, but of conviction. And the message has convinced me, that it is the right way, since there is nothing wrong, bad or evil in it. If you are not convinced by yourself, no one will force you to. You live the way you want to?
Hey TD, Great post!!
I want to also extend on your analogy about doing something "as if it were the law" and Gilbert's thoughts on believing the old testament. The old testament was God trying to make a covenant with his people. He saw that his people were participating in Jewish ceremonial law, which is what we see in Jewish practice even today (circumcision, washing hands before certain rituals, not doing ANY work on the sabbath like turning on ovens or lights, etc). As we can see, these laws have nothing to do with love or compassion for others, and were followed blindly and unquestioned, and one could see how these practices can become burdensome. This notion of blind faith was then applied to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments were given to Moses to show that we sin and what is displeasing to God. Of course, people do not want to displease God, but they were not fully understanding of WHY God showed the people these commandments! People just started doing them they felt like they HAD to and not because they actually wanted to, and in the new and old testaments the commandments are commonly referred to as "the Law." When people do these things blindly like a law, it causes others to form judgment, and this is not good!
Jesus came to show us that through God's love (which is love for Him and one another) we are no longer slaves of the law and slaves of sin, but we are free to live like and with Christ! When we follow the commandments with the sincerity of our whole heart, these commandments to not feel burdensome, but are rather graces in which we encounter the mysteries of Christ and grow together closer with Him! God would never want anything BAD for us, rather he gave us these commandments cuz He's looking out for our best interest. He tells us not to steal so that we don't go to jail or owe people anything. He tells us not to have sex outside/before marriage so that we don't feed used, have bastard children or get STDs. He tells us to lie so that we're not constantly looking over our shoulder. He gives us these commandments so that we live in FREEDOM, not to be slaves.
Yes, some religions teach teach very similar values. Buddhism says not to do bad to others because its bad karma. Seems similar right? Not exactly! If karma were true, for every right and wrong action there would be an equal and opposite reaction. Everyone would see that wrong actions bring evil upon themselves and would stop doing wrong. Obviously this is not true. How may people do we know that seem morally corrupt yet their lives seem to be going great? How many do we know who are so kind have have the purest hearts, yet they constantly have bad things happening to them? Jesus tells us to do to others as we would like done to ourselves, not because bad things will happen to us, but because a) it is the right thing to do, and b) because then we have no hard feelings if someone doesn't do it back, we have no stress, no anger, and no hate, which ultimately breeds evil, and c) let's face it, life is not fair and as long as there's free will in the world, there will be temptation to sin! This doesn't mean to let people walk all over you, but don't sweat the small stuff. When you do things out of love and respect for God and one another, you gain fulfillment of the soul, which is something so fulfilling it transcends description!
We do not dismiss other religions solely on fact, nor by dismissing another faith are we not respecting it. We can see that at least on some surfacy level that all religions have some kind of similar "golden rule." The reason why one should choose to practice one certain faith is a combination of fact, faith, and logical reasoning provided by the theology of that faith.
I want to also extend on your analogy about doing something "as if it were the law" and Gilbert's thoughts on believing the old testament. The old testament was God trying to make a covenant with his people. He saw that his people were participating in Jewish ceremonial law, which is what we see in Jewish practice even today (circumcision, washing hands before certain rituals, not doing ANY work on the sabbath like turning on ovens or lights, etc). As we can see, these laws have nothing to do with love or compassion for others, and were followed blindly and unquestioned, and one could see how these practices can become burdensome. This notion of blind faith was then applied to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments were given to Moses to show that we sin and what is displeasing to God. Of course, people do not want to displease God, but they were not fully understanding of WHY God showed the people these commandments! People just started doing them they felt like they HAD to and not because they actually wanted to, and in the new and old testaments the commandments are commonly referred to as "the Law." When people do these things blindly like a law, it causes others to form judgment, and this is not good!
Jesus came to show us that through God's love (which is love for Him and one another) we are no longer slaves of the law and slaves of sin, but we are free to live like and with Christ! When we follow the commandments with the sincerity of our whole heart, these commandments to not feel burdensome, but are rather graces in which we encounter the mysteries of Christ and grow together closer with Him! God would never want anything BAD for us, rather he gave us these commandments cuz He's looking out for our best interest. He tells us not to steal so that we don't go to jail or owe people anything. He tells us not to have sex outside/before marriage so that we don't feed used, have bastard children or get STDs. He tells us to lie so that we're not constantly looking over our shoulder. He gives us these commandments so that we live in FREEDOM, not to be slaves.
Yes, some religions teach teach very similar values. Buddhism says not to do bad to others because its bad karma. Seems similar right? Not exactly! If karma were true, for every right and wrong action there would be an equal and opposite reaction. Everyone would see that wrong actions bring evil upon themselves and would stop doing wrong. Obviously this is not true. How may people do we know that seem morally corrupt yet their lives seem to be going great? How many do we know who are so kind have have the purest hearts, yet they constantly have bad things happening to them? Jesus tells us to do to others as we would like done to ourselves, not because bad things will happen to us, but because a) it is the right thing to do, and b) because then we have no hard feelings if someone doesn't do it back, we have no stress, no anger, and no hate, which ultimately breeds evil, and c) let's face it, life is not fair and as long as there's free will in the world, there will be temptation to sin! This doesn't mean to let people walk all over you, but don't sweat the small stuff. When you do things out of love and respect for God and one another, you gain fulfillment of the soul, which is something so fulfilling it transcends description!
We do not dismiss other religions solely on fact, nor by dismissing another faith are we not respecting it. We can see that at least on some surfacy level that all religions have some kind of similar "golden rule." The reason why one should choose to practice one certain faith is a combination of fact, faith, and logical reasoning provided by the theology of that faith.
gilbert said:
If you do a little research you will find that history confirm most of the events of the Old Testament.
The New Testament not only there was eitnesses for the things He did, but we see facts of what Jesus said everyday. Sexual activities related diseases are more common in the world now. What kind of a life and effects would two married men have on an adobted child's life? even if the child is their's biologically looking at two same sex people different from other normal people would teach the child? Even animals that we consider them much more stupid than us are not so morally corrupt as humans who are meant to be the smartest being on the planet, yet they are the main source of this planets distruction.
Jesus said without Him there is no salvation, this is because He said that who that have seen Me has seen my father which is God which Jesus is God in the form of human, and in this God was everything pure, and in this purity we were not forced to believe yet we were given the freedom to believe inlike most religions that requires you particular practicec and laws that are inforced in order for you to MAY BE enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus predicted that this gay thing would happen, and thousands of years later we see it isn't that fact enough? whether Jesus said that gays are an abomination or not I personally thing they are, coz if God had intended for this thing to be natural like they try to make it sound with rubbish like I am a man in the body of a woman or woman in the body of man then God would have made a man with the reproductive organs that He gave the woman in order for her to populate the earth with Adam the man.
This is going to take a long discussion which I can't fit in one page or two or three, it is a matter of research.
Jesus encourages us to ask so we can learn, search the books you believe in them you will find truth and they shall be witness of Him.
Many relgions would even make one lose their head for even thinking to question something from their Holy books or their God, this is the beauty of Christ that I am talking about, He is open, He is Righteous, He is pure, He is Love, and He is Lord.
Hello Ninveh,
Great post, although I don't completely agree that gays are an abomination. Yes, you did mention great points that God and Jesus knew that homosexuality existed and would probably increase, and how this type of lifestyle would affect children and and the institution of the traditional nuclear family. The action of homosexual sex goes against what us Catholics believe known as "natural law." I'm not sure if you're judging them (probably not) but what we must remember is to judge the action and not the person. The Catholic church even states that homosexuality is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual acts IS because it goes against God's natural law. I guess then we would have to go back to the argument of are people born gay, or do they choose to be gay? Until there is definitive answer to this, we cannot make for certain that gays are actually an abomination. God tells us not to judge, and we must remember this although it is so hard especially when homosexuality is against the norm. Not saying anything to offend anyone, just my 2 cents
Great post, although I don't completely agree that gays are an abomination. Yes, you did mention great points that God and Jesus knew that homosexuality existed and would probably increase, and how this type of lifestyle would affect children and and the institution of the traditional nuclear family. The action of homosexual sex goes against what us Catholics believe known as "natural law." I'm not sure if you're judging them (probably not) but what we must remember is to judge the action and not the person. The Catholic church even states that homosexuality is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual acts IS because it goes against God's natural law. I guess then we would have to go back to the argument of are people born gay, or do they choose to be gay? Until there is definitive answer to this, we cannot make for certain that gays are actually an abomination. God tells us not to judge, and we must remember this although it is so hard especially when homosexuality is against the norm. Not saying anything to offend anyone, just my 2 cents
Hello Carolyn,
I may have sounded judgmental, but I am sick of hearing Gay and lesbians crying out that they are traped in their bodies they should be the opposite of what they are born as, it makes me sick to be honest. Next thing we will be hearing about people's cries for the churches blessing of human and animal marriages, coz they would be a monkey traped in the human body right? I am sorry Carolyn but I am one of those people that can't stand wrong things and I always express myself honestly and I am sorry if anyone out there gets offended, but the truth always hurts, and if it doesn't hurt it wont get better.
About the Catholic church no offence to any individuals, but I don't believe in their teachings coz they pretend to be teaching the right ways of God but they are not, they are clueless of what the Bible and God's teachings are, they invent and interpret as they please, it wont be long before they bless the gay marriages mark my words, please read in Romans 1: 24 to the end of the chapter. There are many berses in the Bible that clearly identifies such people as wicked and God hating people and when i come across them I will post them.
I may have sounded judgmental, but I am sick of hearing Gay and lesbians crying out that they are traped in their bodies they should be the opposite of what they are born as, it makes me sick to be honest. Next thing we will be hearing about people's cries for the churches blessing of human and animal marriages, coz they would be a monkey traped in the human body right? I am sorry Carolyn but I am one of those people that can't stand wrong things and I always express myself honestly and I am sorry if anyone out there gets offended, but the truth always hurts, and if it doesn't hurt it wont get better.
About the Catholic church no offence to any individuals, but I don't believe in their teachings coz they pretend to be teaching the right ways of God but they are not, they are clueless of what the Bible and God's teachings are, they invent and interpret as they please, it wont be long before they bless the gay marriages mark my words, please read in Romans 1: 24 to the end of the chapter. There are many berses in the Bible that clearly identifies such people as wicked and God hating people and when i come across them I will post them.