Curb your hate

[Hanuni]

Man thats just turkisj propaganda.. if you sit with a turk he'll tell you, we and kurds are brother we don't have any problems.. if that was the case why is turkey trieng its best to prevent a kurdish state? they, and I know danm well what will happen if we get a kurdish state out of northen iraq.

Of course there are some kurds that might be on turkeys side, but your numbers are so wrong it hurts me just by reading it, I'v been to turkey 4 times and I know the case very very well. don't fall into the turkish propaganda my friend..

Again we're talking about the 90's... mate there are 35-45 million kurds, you will find some retarts.. someone that needs money and will do what it takes.. and thats weird.. becuase all the soldiers I saw on the border/villages and town were turkish..

The "Turkish" propaganda is unfortunately correct. I've been investigating this matter for some time now and my conclusion is that there are a maximum amount of 7 million Kurds in Turkey wanting a independent Kurdish state. Considering 60.000 Kurds loyal to the Turkish state are fighting against the PKK is in favor of this theory in my eyes. I seriously hate Turkey though as they were the ones who organized the Assyrian Genocide, bombed the remaining Assyrian villages in Hakkari in the 90's and supported the killing of more than 50 civil Assyrians in the 90's in Turabdin so I hope PKK will continue their struggle.

Where in Turkey are you from?

 

[Hanuni]

Can you give me some links please mate? no offence but your numbers gone up from first 2 mill then 3-4 mill now 7 mill .
I'am from iraqi kurdistan actualy, however I'v traveled to turkey 4 times, 3/4 times I went there to cross the border to kurdistan, and one time just for the same of it, I ment and talked to alot of people who told me that if they speak in favour of kurds the police will take them to prison.. even if 10/14 million kurds want a country is still allright my friend.. don't forget that some people want a country but are not too bothered about it. I'v never heard of kurdish people in the turkish army my friend, so if you can show me some links that would be helpfull.

PS: were you here when israelite used to post here? I PM'd me with some interesting stuff.

As I said, a maximum amount of 7 million but from my researchs the number is at some 5 million.

I saw a great documentary about the Kurdish village guards but here's the wikilink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_guard_system

Actually I wasn't, did he pm anything good to know?

 

[Hanuni]

Mate,

You don't seem to understand the problems here.. if you look at these factors I hope you re-think your conclusions..

1) I would rather have a kurdish "guard" fighting off the PKK, rather then a turkish one who abuses the kurds.
2) High unemployement rate, people need money..
3) As kurds, most of us are againts PKK, I agree with their agenda however terrorism is not the way to go.

I would not really trust WIKI, even if its true, I'v explained it above.. also.. we can kurds have the ability to icrease our numbers very quickly   In kurdistan region iraq, we had 3-4 million in 2003, now we're estimated at 8-9 million  

Regarding, israelite, not for you hehe, he posted me a lot of evidence saying that assyrians linked to the ancient assyrians don't exict anymore. a couple of books and a web page.

If you're gonna try the Assyrian ancestry part you will loose.

DNA has proved Assyrians to be sons of Assyria/Mesopotamia with the majority having J1 (originated in Anatolia/Assyria), J2 (originated in Mesopotamia) or R1b1b which is European. (http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm)

Tens of professors and prominent ones as Dr.Parpola, Saggs, Roux and Fiey has proven Assyrian ancestry in modern Assyrians.

Lets try the Kurdish card. Kurds are not indigenous to the region. Kurds are constituted by some 7 independent people as the Kurmanjis, Soranis, Zazakis, Goranis, Feylis etc who speak different languages and cant even understand each other. DNA has proven that many Kurds are even Assyrian, Turkish, Armenian, Persian or Arabs in origin. DNA has also proven that haplogroups that exist in 80% the Kurmanji population only exist at a rate of x<20% in other Kurdish groups. (http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf). So who are you to draw the ancestry card?

And yes it is true that you can multiply yourselves very fast. You have at least 2 wifes and 20 kids, I remember how you did not exist in Qamishli before the 1950's and then became a majority of some 60% these days and today Qamishli is a so called capital of Syrian Kurdistan.

 

[Hanuni]

Why are you assuming I called the ancestry card? if you ask the older members am sure they can tell you about israelite and his posts here, he PM's me on another furom.. I just asked you if you know him.

In regards to the link you posted, it sais:

Kurds are an Indo-European speaking group that inhabit
the highlands in the border area of Turkey, Syria, Iran
and Iraq. This region lies astride the Zagros Mountains
of Iran and the eastern extension of the Taurus
Mountains in Turkey, and extends in the south across
the Mesopotamian plain to include the upper reaches of
the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (Figure 1). Several languages
and/or dialects of Kurdish are recognized, and
are classified as belonging to the northwestern branch
of Iranian languages (Ethnologue, 2000).
The first mention of the Kurds in historical records is
in cuneiform writings from the Sumerians from around
3,000 B.C. (Wixman, 1984), who talked of the ?land
∗Corresponding author: Max Plank Institute for Evolutionary
Anthropology, Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Deutscher
Platz 6, 04103, Leipzig, Germany. E-mail: nasidze@eva.mpg.de
of the Karda?. In the 7th century A.D., the Arabs conquered
the area and in time converted everyone in it -
including the Kurds - to Islam. In the centuries that followed,
the Kurds withstood invasions from Central Asia
which brought the Turkic peoples as far west as Asia
Minor (now Turkey), probably because they occupied
an area that was too difficult for outsiders to reach. As
the Ottoman Empire rose to power in the 13th through
to the 15th centuries, it extended its territory to what
is roughly now the border between Iran and Iraq. From
then untilWorldWar I, the area inhabited by the Kurds
was under the dominion of the Ottomans and Persians.
There have been several migration events involving
Kurds. An extensive resettlement of Kurds from
Turkey and Iran into the Caucasus began during the
late 19th century and continued through World War I
(Wixman, 1984). Since that time Kurds have formed
compact settlements in Georgia and Armenia, and have

That basically said that kurds were there before the turkic people arrived (turks) so.. and yeah people in the middle east or all more or less the same

In regards to what israelite posted to me, am just passing it along and I don't want to get in the middle of an arguement between you and the jews..

NON OF THIS POSTS ARE POSTED BY ME!

Modern Assyrians are well-known for their name Suraye. Actually, this is the only name they are know by the old Jewish people from Kurdistan. Most of the Assyrian nationalists avoid this name, especially those living abroad. But there are those who live in the Near East and they use this term as an ethnic identifier.

Now you guys claim that the word Syrian is derived from Assyrian, and that words such as Suraya (human), Suri (human), or Surith (language) are derivatives of the word Syria, and they are actually equivalent to Assyrian (human), Assyrian (language), and the like.

Read the following links and decide for yourself whether the word Syrian is equivalent to Assyrian with all the implications involved or not. These are historical references based on archeological findings, and are not related to the Assyrian-Syrian name controversial.
http://books.google.co.il/books?id=Mtb_OAj58YoC&lpg=PA303&ots=myG2pt0KXe&dq=Winckler%20Suri%20Babylonian&pg=PA185#v=onepage&q=Suri&f=false

See also http://www.google.co.il/search?q=Winckler+Suri+Babylonian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

Of course I can provide you with more references, if you're interested about who are the modern Assyrians. This one, I believe is very reliable, and I hope the author, John Joseph, is not Jewish. He's actually one of you:
http://books.google.co.il/books?id=79wj2hj4wKUC&dq=%22John+Joseph%22++assyrian&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vuDaB7QHyJ&sig=u3C2nJnkIdQ4n6Mn7Ma0E1BIVII&hl=iw&ei=QX5OSuvsN4TH_gaJ6bXIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Joseph%22%20%20assyrian&f=false

And here's another reference to Professor Kelley Ross, neither a Zionist nor a Jew, who speaks about the implications of the modern Assyrianism
http://www.aramnaharaim.org/English/assyrians1.htm

About the genetics researches you have previously related to in your posts, I may add that, they clearly designate you as invaders from Arabia, which you admit to, in contrast to other Assyrian nationalists who nowadays claim that you are of Aryan origion.
You talked about J1-M267 (Y-DNA) marker, but what about J2-M172 (Y-DNA) . Read this:
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm

They are stating that the Kurds are mentioned as Kardas, which has not been proven scientifically by any known professor so far, with other words, they are saying what some Kurds regard themselves as. And how has it not been proven scientifically? No researcher, archeologist or professor has ever found a connection between Kurd and Karda, that's the issue. Their genetic tests on Kurd denounce the Kurdish myth of being indigenous to the region, if you could interpret the work you would understand. We also know that the Indo-Iranians as the Kurds and Persians first came from Afghanistan and then settled in Iran, whereas the Kurds latter also settled in Assyria/Mesopotamia.

Invaders from Arabia? It has been proven by recent studies that J1 originated in Assyria and then spread downwards to Arabia you invading Afghani

"When the authors examined differences among the ancient peoples of the Near East, they discovered that the languages spoken in different parts of the region were quite distinct. Until the Arabic swept across the Near East more than 1,000 years ago, there were dozens of languages spoken in the region: Aramaic in Syria, Babylonian in Iraq, and Canaanite from Lebanon to Jordan. The majority of these tongues are now extinct, but all belong to the same Semitic language family, to which Hebrew and Arabic also belong.

The authors reasoned that the history of these ancient languages may be tied to that of the people who spoke them. The history of these ancient people could be deciphered further by examining their genetic ancestry via paternal haplogroup J1e.

The researchers? combined analysis of the J1e types and the ancient Semitic languages revealed some startling results. The authors found that J1e arose in Anatolia (present-day Turkey), expanding southward toward Arabia 10,000 years ago."

Source: 23andMe Scientists Harness Linguistics to Describe Origin and History of Paternal Haplogroup J1e

Our nation is Suraya which in Assyrian is written as (A)suraya which means Assyrian, this was also proven by Dr.Rollinger along with the Cinek?y rock so do not even waste your time. You Kurds should decide whether you are Afghans, Iranians/Persians, Medes, Hurrians, Hittites etc or just a new ethnic group that began to call itself Kurdish some 900 years ago.

And as I said if you could interpret the Kurdish DNA analysis you would understand that a majority of the modern Kurds are not Kurds but Assyrians, Armenians, Turks, Arabs etc.

You also mentioned J2. J2 arose in Mesopotamia and we are northern Mesopotamians from Anatolia where J1e originated, making it the biggest haplogroup of the Assyrian nation and most legitimate one.

And of course the Kurds arrived before the Turkic peoples did. The Kurds arrived to Mesopotamia somewhat in the year 1000 A.D. and the Turkic peoples first in 1200 A.D (I believe 1200 A.D.)

 

[Hanuni]

Why are you shifting this to kurds?

If you want to discuss these you can do so with the original poster as am sure he'd like to chat with you about it, as he told me all he's posts were deleted here, I don't have time to go through all these books and refrences, and to go through DNA samples, however am aware that some kurds have mixed with others.

Kurds don't just come from one group, yes we have some kurds that are from the medes, however some other kind of people are from the medes, my friend you can ask any educated iraian and they will tell you that kurds come from the medes, but as I said we are not just from them and we have other ancesters too.. I don't know why your attacking me when I specifacly told you non of the above was posted by me, I dont have the time nor the will to put that much input into this subject.

I am sorry. I thought you wrote everything over "Non of this was posted by me". I wish that Israelite would still be active, would be fun to have a discussion with him.

I want to know one thing though. How come Kurds are so threatened by <5million Assyrians? I keep seeing Kurds commenting on Assyrian youtube videos constantly with words as "**** Assyria, Long live Kurdistan" in the Assyrian, Kurdish and English language by Kurds. They are almost more active on our videos than on the Turkish ones!

Now the thing is, let us say you are Medes. You're original country is northeast of Assyria and not in Assyria (Nineveh, Arbil, Dohuk, Mardin etc)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Amarnamap.png

 

[Hanuni]

Mate, please read this in regards to kurds and medes
http://books.google.com/books?id=kzrFOhXDp5wC&pg=PA123&dq=medes+kurds&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=medes%20kurds&f=false

And to answer your question, its not about threat, but you will find bored teenagers everywhere.. its a chain reaction, if you check kurdish videos you might find assryians commenting, in fact I'v seen a vide of some kids burning a kurdish flag, which ofcourse triggers kurds to go on assyrian videos and do the same, no one knows who started it, but don't pay to much attention to it.

I messaged him and said, please take a look at what you said, and he will reply to me if he wants and I can post it here. he is active he's just banned haha, this is what he said "I am actually Israelite, not mamo. I am the most hated Jew by the Surayeh. Every new forum member in the AssyrianVoice is checked whether he's me or not"

Haha. Of course, if I would state that all of Palestine is originally Arab and not Hebrew or Israelite as the Jews have mixed with every single ethnic group on this planet I believe he wouldn't exactly love me. I am pro-Israel, but lets say I just would.

 

[Hanuni]

Also read this regarding kurds, and the land of karda.

http://books.google.com/books?id=CttLWEaTrJUC&pg=PA23&dq=Land+of+Karda+kurds&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I could read 10000 books stating that Kurds are Medes or sons of Karda, Hitties or made up by other ancient groups. The fact that the Medes spoke some form of Persian and maintained a Persian culture clearly denounces the Kurdish connection. And let us still stay it does not. There are no archeological scientific proof that the Medes and the Kurds are linked to each other, or Karda and the Kurds, that is the issue my friend. Until we find such proof, I can not trust claims by Kurdish nationalists and pro-Kurdish researchers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moderniranianlanguagesmap.jpg

Analyse that map. Do you think it is a co-incident that Kurdish is still spoken near the Turkmeni-Iranian-Afghani border and in the Zagros? Certainly it is not. The origin of the Kurds is in Iran and not in Assyria.

 

[Hanuni]

Well, why would I accept anti-kurd sources? the fact is that any iranian knows that kurds were the medes, which is why they consider us as iranian too, for example if you look at this iranian guys youtube accout.

http://www.youtube.com/user/coltser?feature=mhw4, read Farahvar1 comments, he said "Medians were an Iranian nation in which had different tribes! Present Kurds,Lurrs and Gilakies are the descendants of their different tribes!" of course he's iranian which is why he would say "medes/kurds" are iranian, however he is right about lurrs and othe others who come from the medes as I stated before.

I don't care what some people say, fact is I and iranians know that kurds come from partly the medes, and we have a rich history iregarless of what our enemies think.

PS: you need to stop using WIKI, its not really realible my friend. since you like WIKI, if you check wikipedia on the medes, you'd see that they actualy spoke kurdish, and the article there is written by iranians, so thats even more proof my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

The last king of the medes, did not have a son, so he's duaghter married a persian who then gave birth to cyrus.

The Wiki link of the Medes does not mention that they spoke Kurdish. It states that "The Median language (also Medean or Medic) was the language of the Medes.[1] Together with Gilaki, Mazandarani, Kurdish language and Baluchi are classified as a northwestern Iranian language" in the Mede language, stating that the Median language was/is a distinct one from the Kurdish one. And I only use Wiki sources when one can, as in the case with where different languages are spoken and e.g. the Village Guards which I have read about before not on Wiki and seen documentaries about. No Wiki article can provide a language map where e.g. Swedish is spoken in the south of Germany 

 

[MXJSPH]

BS.

If you didn't think every Christian was arrogant you would actually be somewhat secular and not always bashing away at their religion every chance you get. I'd actually go as far to say that I'm a lot more tolerant than you in regards to how I approach people and their ideas. It's OK to have disagreements, just as long as you handle it in a civilized way. After all, that is what democracy is all about isn't it?

There are things that we both will and will not tolerate. So what makes your perspectives more "just" than anyone else's?

I am very much a secularist. As it so happens, I tend to become very anti-theist here because of horrendously stupid things that come out in the religious section. You can't let that kind of shit fly, you know? Especially on the biggest web presence we have - it is embarrassing sometimes.

I've met Christians (and Muslims) who very well acknowledge the encroachment science has made into various creationism stories, and forsake creation, or at least aspects of it, in light of what science has uncovered so far.. i.e, they aren't stupid enough to ignore whats in front of them in favour of something that isn't. They will still believe in a god within some kind of context, but acknowledge there being a heavy emphasis on the spiritual or philosophical aspects of this god - god as justice, god as moraliser, god as friend, god as comforter, god as community builder. All concepts work just as well if not better outside of orthodox theism or dogmatic scripture. So no, if I were you, I wouldn't presume I go around lynching religious people wherever I find them. I don't patronise them and speak my mind if the subject arises, but I don't verbally bludgeon them into a pulp unless they exhibit an infuriating stupidity.

I never got on a moral high horse by the way, I just said stop hating whole groups. That shouldn't be a threat or a challenge unless you have a guilty conscience about it? Religious hatred is only part of it; this is about any kind of bigotry and racism.

As for what has now become the foreground discussion regarding Assyrians and what Kurds have done to them in the past/Kurdish history.. We can sling all kinds of shit at different people for events in the past, but we shouldn't attack groups in the present for the deeds of those in the past. Sure, Kurds and Arabs still fuck Assyrians over in Iraq in various ways, but at least focus that resentment onto the people and the leaders who are actually responsible.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

~ F.N

 

[Free_Assyria]

Well, why would I accept anti-kurd sources? the fact is that any iranian knows that kurds were the medes, which is why they consider us as iranian too, for example if you look at this iranian guys youtube accout.

http://www.youtube.com/user/coltser?feature=mhw4, read Farahvar1 comments, he said "Medians were an Iranian nation in which had different tribes! Present Kurds,Lurrs and Gilakies are the descendants of their different tribes!"

PS: you need to stop using WIKI, its not really realible my friend.
The last king of the medes, did not have a son, so he's duaghter married a persian who then gave birth to cyrus.

Yeah Hanuni stop using wiki because an Iranian guy's youtube account is much more reliable.
Idea Kurds and Assyrians are nothing alike. The only "like" is some of our cultural traditions that you took from us.

 

[RedStarSoyuza]

Yes its all very good and nice to act all lovey but when the shi* hits the fan you have to hate your enemy because your enemy hates you! all of you people that agree with this peace bullsh*t are morons yes muslims and kurds and arabs suck and I hate them because they killed my forefathers! How is this conversation even happening now?!?! all those murdered babies by the turks and kurds would be turning over in their graves had they any!!! Shame on all of you who say we should not hate our enemy!

 

[Zawoyo]

To hate: Action leads to reaction.
That?s a natural law, nothing, and also no creature, can say "I am not like this."

 

[Hanuni]

Hauni,

He replied to you, please again note that this are not my words.

Now, this guy like most of his ilk do not try to exchange ideas and debate a topic, such as the Assyrian Identity. This is the typical response I get from these guys. You try to debate the Assyrian identity, and their fantastic claim that they are the direct descendants of the ancient Assyrians, and they at once resort to accusations, and such nonsense as quoted above. Not only what he says is false, but also not relevant to the current discussion; that is, Assyrian Identity. Whether Jews are mixed or not has got nothing to do with the Assyrian identity, the subject under discussion. Also, "all of Palestine is originally Arab and not Hebrew or Israelite" is a false statement whether the present-day Jews are mixed or not.

This guy can challenge my a$$!

Just for the records, Jews are not mixed as they are portrayed by Arab propaganda, which is part of the Assyrian propaganda. Take for example the Jews versus Kurds in Northern Iraq. We are genetically very similar, not because Kurds became Jews. On the contrary, Jews became Kurds. Jews also assimilated among the Arabs and the Russians and the Assyrians and the Germans and the Americans, etc. etc. etc. That none-Jews converted to Judaism is a very uncommon phenomena, and a small and limited one, which bear very small influence on the Jewish genetic structure. Historically speaking, it has been a very unattractive deal to convert to Judaism. And even those who convert to Judaism left it on the first opportunity for something more profitable. I just wonder what was the Assyrians' share in this!? 8-[

His saying he's pro-Israel has got nothing to do with historical truth. I refuse to distort and twist history because I am pro this or pro that. Anyhow, this is very interesting, as this is the first time I hear an Assyrian sympathize with Israel :lol: Most of them are anti-Semitic as are many none-secular Muslim Kurds. I have encountered not a few Kurds, especially in Youtube, who called for the butchering of Jews. I also told them what Jews can do to them, but I have encountered many Kurds who are avid supporters of Israel, who threatened other Kurds and even cursed their prophet and Saladin. Almost never encountered an Assyrian who denounced other Assyrians for their anti-Semitic views and comments. There are two or three nice guys in AssyrianVoice, such as Rumtayah. The rest spend more time hating the Jews than the Kurds.

Well, I guess this is enough. Let's return to who are the Modern Assyrians, this being the main topic I would like to concern myself with, mostly by posting here old posts I published elsewhere. So when I have time I'll post them.

If you'd like to answer here, I can post your replies on the other furom, or if you like you can come and post there directly.

If he was so active on youtube he would notice that 80% of all Assyrian nationalists are pro-Israel and have a lot of Jewish friends. Surely there are Assyrians who hate Jews but they are not a majority, there are even Jews who hate Jews and Israel.

When it comes to Assyrians, should I listen do a random Jew who hates Assyrians or should I listen to my (A)suraya ethnicity, my forefathers, all archeological Assyrian sites in Assyria with our language and culture on it, and prominent professors as Dr.Saggs, Dr.Fiey, Dr.Parpola, Dr.Rollinger along with the Cinek?y rock that proved that (A)suraya really means Assyrian and put an end to all of this argue from non-Assyrians regarding modern Assyrians?

Should I trust recent DNA studies that proved that Assyrians were native to Assyria and all of its lands (not the empire but heart of Assyria) whereas recent studies reveal that J1 originated in Assyria/Anatolia and J2 in Mesopotamia, or should I trust a Jew who once again hates Assyrians? Get your facts rights and seriously keep out ouf Assyrian business, I realise that the world is afraid of us rising up as most of our people are educated and motivated but seriously, what do all Kurds, Arabs, Turks and now some Jews want from us who only number 5 million? I've never really met a Jew who hates Assyrians to be frank, most I have met and still maintain contact with are good and love Assyrians and who even learn Assyrian Aramaic.

Shalom

 

[Hanuni]

I'll post that for you. PS: everyone has their fair shate of educated people, but you need to understand that, its too late for kurds,assyrians to rise up simply becuase our enemies are too powerfull, we can't win by ourself, maybe kurds can with US support, but thats the only way.. as for assyrians I believe its way too late.

Actually the Assyrians educate their children far more than any nation, and this is why Iraq is crying over the "Christians" leaving the country.

You are correct that our enemies are too strong. But we dream, and dream we shall, for they do come true

Biji Ashorestan & Kordestan

 

[OppiFjellet]

Yea, I agree with MJaY
Give peace a chance.

 

[jacob]

Great.  Israelite is back in Kurd's clothing. Ideas, why do you post the words of this asshole?  He was banned for a reason.  How many different profile names do you people have?  If you truly registered just last month, then you weren't even here when Israelite was a part of this website.  What happened to your former username?

His arguments are crap and his only purpose on this website was to deny the ethnic identity of Assyrians and stir people up into bashing him, so he could claim how much Assyrian hate Jews.  Has he ever been to Chicago?  Has he seen how much Jews dislike Assyrians too?  No matter what measures are taken to bridge the gap between Jews and Assyrians, many religious Jews will still hate Assyrians because their stupid ancient book tells them to.  And believe me when I tell you this.  I say it from living the experience of an Assyrian/Jew who spent 7 years in Hebrew school.

He has posted all this bullsh*t here before and it is typical of those that like to cherry-pick their stats and information of history.  Should I now counter his arguments about the continuity of Jews by quoting long passages from Shlomo Sand's book, "The Invention of the Jewish People"?  I wouldn't do that because I find that type of selective historical interpretation to be entirely disingenuous and the opposite of what actual scholarly work should be.  Too bad Israelite isn't capable of bringing himself out of the gutter of historical revisionism to realize that.  And too bad he has to deny others their ethnic heritage to make himself feel better.  I guess I should be lucky that I'm an Assyrian/Jew and know the history of both my peoples.  I feel sorry for someone like Israelite who has nothing better to do than sneak around online forums and YouTube to try to pretend he's important in some way.

 

[baklawa]

"so-called Assyrians"??  Really?  And we're supposed to take you seriously?  That you're even allowed to post this racist trash written by a well-known Assyrian hater says a lot about this site and its tolerance.  You've revealed your agenda many times here, hence the hostility you've encountered.

And iraqicamel, nakhpitwa.  This is what you're defending under the guise of "christian tolerance and peace"?  De khoosh jamee honookh.

 

[Hanuni]

This is israelite reply!

"The following is an excerpt from the book by Ashael Grant, the American Christian missionary who had spend more than five years living among the so-called Assyrians:

"...let us bring the traditions of the Nestorian
Christians relating to their Hebrew origin.
First, then, I remark, the tradition is general,
and universally believed by the Nestorians
throughout Assyria and Media. they speak of it
of their own accord, in all places and in various
circumstances. Smith and Dwight, in the
course of their short visit to the Nestorian
Christians, were struck by their singular
assertion that they were the descendants of the
ten tribes. they recognise the fact in
conversation with each other, as well as with
strangers. One of their priests charged upon his
people their accumulated guilt and
responsibility, on the ground of their relation
to those 'to whom pertained the covenant and
promises;' and his language was that of rebuke,
and not of complaisance. Often have I heard
the remark from their ecclesiastics, in allusion
to their Hebrew ancestry, that theirs were a
stiff-necked people, like their fathers of old.
These incidental allusions to their Jewish
ancestry prove most conclusively that their
tradition is received as a well-known truth.
Though it subject him to reproach, no one
denies that it is of the children of Israel. The
learned and ignorant, old and young, all
acknowledge the relation."


"Here, as everywhere, the Jews are the most
despised and persecuted class of the people. An

odium is consequently attached to all who are
allied to them. For fear of this odium, I have
seen Nestorians hesitate to give a reply when
interrogated respecting their ancestry; yet they
finally admitted their Jewish origin."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"It may be asked whether the Nestorians have
any historical records in proof of their Hebrew
origin. I have seen none. {Priest Dunka, who
has long been employed as an assistant in this
mission, and sustains a character for veracity,
and, we hope, for consistent piety, assures me
that he saw near Mosul a history in which it
was expressly stated that they, the Nestorians,
were Beni Israel (the children of Israel)}. Their
histories seldom extend beyond a short record
of the passing events of the day, occasionally
inserted by the writer or the copyist in the
margin of some religious book. The patriarch's
most ancient manuscripts were destroyed by
the water about sixty years ago, when taking
them across the river Zab; and, unless future
research bring to light authentic records on the
subject, we must content ourselves with the
answer often given to my inquiries for written
documents in support of their tradition. 'For
us,' say the Nestorians, 'such a record is
unnecessary, as we are well acquainted with
the fact of our Israelitish descent, the account
of which is handed down from father to son
through successive generations. In our early
history, certainly such a record could not have
been called for; and, had any one made it at a
later period, we might have suspected some
sinister motive. Moreover, we consider such a
tradition, received by all classes of the people,
better testimony than written records, which
few could read or understand, and which are
liable to be corrupted or lost; whereas our
tradition no one can dispute or alter, as it is
known to all. We are certainly Beni Israel (sons
of Israel), there is no doubt of it.'"


"It is the one simple fact, that the Nestorians
are what they profess to be, the children of
Israel."


"The Jews who dwell among them acknowledge
the relationship. they admit that the Nestorians
are as truly the descendants of the Israelites as
themselves. Do they not know? or is it possible
that the great mass of the ten tribes were
converted to Christianity without their
knowledge? Providentially for our cause, the
ten tribes are not all nominally Christian. A
remnant seem to have been left as witnesses in
this case. Dispersed through the country of the
Nestorians, and surrounding them on every
side, are some thousands of nominal Jews, still
adhering to Judaism, who claim to be a part of
the ten tribes carried away captive by the kings
of Assyria. These are the witnesses now on the
stand.

They testify, though sometimes reluctantly,
that they and the Nestorians are brethren of
the same stock; that they and the Nestorians
have a common relation to the house of Israel,
a common origin."


"March 6th, 1840... Received a visit from two
learned Jews, Ezekiel and Daniel, of
Ooroomiah [Urmiah], who, in the presence of
the bishops Mar Yoosuph and Mar Eliyah, two
priests and other Nestorians, most explicitly
acknowledged that the Nestorians were the
sons of Israel, a circumstance with which, as
they affirmed, the Jews were well acquainted.
Priest Dunka, for my sake, then asked them if
they were sure of the fact; and they replied
emphatically, that they knew that the
Nestorians were children of Israel; but, as the
Nestorians had departed from the faith of their
fathers, their people were ashamed to own
them as brethren. In answer to my inquiries,
they said they had records containing an
account of the time and circumstances of their
conversion to Christianity."

"More recently, other Jews have repeatedly
made the same statement to the writer, and to
some of his associates in the mission. On one
occasion their chief rabbi confirmed the
testimony of the Hebrew origin of the
Nestorians, while in their synagogue, and in
the hearing of Messers [???], Holladay,
Stocking, and myself. He said that the
Nestorians apostatized from the Jewish faith in
the days of Christ or his apostles."

I've seen this statement before on a forum, probably by Israelite himself.

What Israelite does not get is that it is very ease to falsify history. Shlomo Sand's book as previously mentioned denounces the existence of a Jewish people and he is a Jew himself. Is his work to be taken seriously?

Ashael Grant was a missionary who lived in the 19th century. Could Israelite be kind and answer my how Assyrians existed before the arrival of English missionaries in the 19th and 20th century? In John Speeds map from the 16h century we notice that from the different people of the Ottoman Empire there are "Assyrians" listed as a distinct ethnic group in Assyria.

In the year of 1612, before the arrival of any European missinonary the Pope Paul V criticises the then Persian Shah Abbas I. for his "unfair treament of those who are called Assyrians". I could give hundreds of such quotes. The Cinek?y rock also proved along with prominent professors as I mentioned before that Assyria and Syria are synonyms meaning Suroyo is a abbrevation of Assuroyo which we til this day write as Assuroyo. Israelite should stop reading John Josephs works, whereas John Joseph is not even a Dr., professor etc but a random guy trying to falsify history. Historians, professors and archeologists that in the past denounced the modern ethnic Assyrians being the same people as the ancient Assyrians do not even exist anymore. Prominent professors as Dr.Saggs, Dr.Parpola, Dr.Rollinger, Dr. Fiey, Dr.Roux and archeologists as John McGuiness has proved that Assyrian continuation is a fact.

I will not register at that forum as Israelite requested. Not me or any Assyrian need to defend our ancestors and Assyrian heritage.

And I am no Assyrian Nestorian but I will not allow any non-Assyrian to criticise our national churches without a claim that has been supported by prominent intellectual people. The Nestorian Church has always in Assyrian/Aramaic been called "Idta d'Madnkha d'Suraye", meaning the Church of the East of the Assyrians. And Israelite should know, the Hebrews were most likely Assyrian or of other Mesopotamian origin so he might be closer to us than he thinks

 

[Hanuni]

Hanuni,

If you'd like to continue this arguement please go on the other furom.. I don't want to get in the middle of this.

I understand. I would though appreciate if you could forward my last reply to him where it also says that I will not get into a discussion with him on another forum.

 

[GreenTea]

I've seen this statement before on a forum, probably by Israelite himself.

What Israelite does not get is that it is very ease to falsify history. Shlomo Sand's book as previously mentioned denounces the existence of a Jewish people and he is a Jew himself. Is his work to be taken seriously?

Ashael Grant was a missionary who lived in the 19th century. Could Israelite be kind and answer my how Assyrians existed before the arrival of English missionaries in the 19th and 20th century? In John Speeds map from the 16h century we notice that from the different people of the Ottoman Empire there are "Assyrians" listed as a distinct ethnic group in Assyria.

In the year of 1612, before the arrival of any European missinonary the Pope Paul V criticises the then Persian Shah Abbas I. for his "unfair treament of those who are called Assyrians". I could give hundreds of such quotes. The Cinek?y rock also proved along with prominent professors as I mentioned before that Assyria and Syria are synonyms meaning Suroyo is a abbrevation of Assuroyo which we til this day write as Assuroyo. Israelite should stop reading John Josephs works, whereas John Joseph is not even a Dr., professor etc but a random guy trying to falsify history. Historians, professors and archeologists that in the past denounced the modern ethnic Assyrians being the same people as the ancient Assyrians do not even exist anymore. Prominent professors as Dr.Saggs, Dr.Parpola, Dr.Rollinger, Dr. Fiey, Dr.Roux and archeologists as John McGuiness has proved that Assyrian continuation is a fact.

I will not register at that forum as Israelite requested. Not me or any Assyrian need to defend our ancestors and Assyrian heritage.

And I am no Assyrian Nestorian but I will not allow any non-Assyrian to criticise our national churches without a claim that has been supported by prominent intellectual people. The Nestorian Church has always in Assyrian/Aramaic been called "Idta d'Madnkha d'Suraye", meaning the Church of the East of the Assyrians. And Israelite should know, the Hebrews were most likely Assyrian or of other Mesopotamian origin so he might be closer to us than he thinks

We can not forget that the Israelites were living in Assyria. But also there were few a Assyrians that converted to Judaism. I dont doubt that the Israelite blend/mix in the Assyrian population like any few other groups that lived in Assyria.

 

[Hanuni]

Of course. There were plenty of Assyrian Jews in the area of Zakho who even spoke east Assyrian

 

[ASHOOR]

ideas: don't turn this into a forum for relaying someone else's message. Just post your ideas, we don't care about someone else who is not here, who has been banned.

No other way around it.

ASHOOR

 

[Hanuni]

Huanni, he replied to you, you can either go to the other furom and check it, or I can post it here.

Thank you for forwarding my last message. And I think I made myself I do not need to defend my Assyrian heritage, it has been proven by several of professors around the whole world. That is more than enough for me! I will not get into a useless discussion, it's not like he is going to listen what I am going to say as he already has made up his mind and hates Assyrians.

 

[Damail]

I am very much a secularist. As it so happens, I tend to become very anti-theist here because of horrendously stupid things that come out in the religious section. You can't let that kind of **** fly, you know? Especially on the biggest web presence we have - it is embarrassing sometimes.

I've met Christians (and Muslims) who very well acknowledge the encroachment science has made into various creationism stories, and forsake creation, or at least aspects of it, in light of what science has uncovered so far.. i.e, they aren't stupid enough to ignore whats in front of them in favour of something that isn't. They will still believe in a god within some kind of context, but acknowledge there being a heavy emphasis on the spiritual or philosophical aspects of this god - god as justice, god as moraliser, god as friend, god as comforter, god as community builder. All concepts work just as well if not better outside of orthodox theism or dogmatic scripture. So no, if I were you, I wouldn't presume I go around lynching religious people wherever I find them. I don't patronise them and speak my mind if the subject arises, but I don't verbally bludgeon them into a pulp unless they exhibit an infuriating stupidity.

I never got on a moral high horse by the way, I just said stop hating whole groups. That shouldn't be a threat or a challenge unless you have a guilty conscience about it? Religious hatred is only part of it; this is about any kind of bigotry and racism.

As for what has now become the foreground discussion regarding Assyrians and what Kurds have done to them in the past/Kurdish history.. We can sling all kinds of **** at different people for events in the past, but we shouldn't attack groups in the present for the deeds of those in the past. Sure, Kurds and Arabs still **** Assyrians over in Iraq in various ways, but at least focus that resentment onto the people and the leaders who are actually responsible.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

~ F.N

Fair enough.

 

[jonadona]

To hate: Action leads to reaction.
That?s a natural law, nothing, and also no creature, can say "I am not like this."

Hate is learned.  you're not born programmed to hate, unless there is a chemical imbalance in your brain.

Glad you highlighted this phenom on AVN, Max.