Church issue eerily similiar to issue of 1551

[Enki]

This church problem (which we have discussed every day, for as long as my memory takes me) has become eerily similiar to the issue that occured within our church in 1551. For those that dont know what that year represents, it was the year the Assyrian Church of the East became split and the Chaldean Catholic Church was formed.

1551: When patriarch John Sulaka goes to Rome and professes his Catholic faith, many Nestorians follow him. Others do not accept his conversion. The Catholic branch comes to be called Chaldean, or Chaldean Catholic, or East Syriac.
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/chaldean.htm

Apparently, from a different article I read but can't find right now, John Sulaka and a few other bishops were not happy with the new patriarch of the ACOE. At the time, it was family based. Meaning, the nephew or other relative of the late patriarch took the throne. In 1551, it was the nephew of the late patriarch that did.

John Sulaka and a few other bishops went to Rome and as it says, professed their Catholic faith. Which was then when Pope Julius III named that segment of the Assyrians "Chaldeans" (Trying to kill two birds with one stone here).

It is the Catholic branch of the church of the Orient, alias nestorian which refused the Council of Ephese (431). The Patriarch Jean Simon SOULAKA, elected in 1551, was recognized by Rome as patriarch of the Chaldeans, but the union wouldn't be final with Rome until 1830, when the Pope Pie VIII confirmed in his function the patriarch Jean Hormizd II with the title of Patriarch of Babylon for the Chaldeans.?
Mossoul was the seat of the patriarchate; the patriarch now resides in Baghdad. The number of the Chaldean faithfuls is evaluated at approximately 42 0000
http://www.opuslibani.org.lb/church/chaldean/ehistory.htm

With the current destruction of the COE, the same situation is occuring. Our church and its congregation has split. We now have a former bishop of the COE preaching and on a mission, from what it seems, to remove Mar Dinkha from his position as Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. Now, I'm no longer affluent in the situation as I stopped caring about the Assyrian Church of the East VS Mar Bawi issue that has plauged our nation, but, should we as a nation not question Mar Bawi's motives?

What does this man stand to gain by doing what he is doing? Yes I agree on the terms that there needs to be an investigation about the roles our patriarch and his bishops have played in the issues of the Church, both past and present. But, once those issues are brought to the forfront, then what? Whats next for Mar Bawi?

I think the questions that need to be asked are, assuming Mar Dinkha is cleared of accusations brought forth from the Mar Bawi front, what will Mar Bawi and his followers do next? If Mar Dinkha is found to have committed or played a part in those accusations, (a) what will happen to his role? and (b) if he's removed as patrach, will Mar Bawi run to take over?

For every action, theres a motive. What is Mar Bawi's? Remember, the Chaldean Catholic Church did not become official until 279 years after John Sulaka professed his Catholic faith. When will our church divide and join Rome once again? We are after all, the only christian faith without their own theological university and teachers. Its only a matter of time....

John 14:1-3? Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. In the house of my Father there are MANY ABODES.? Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you.? Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.

 

[Crocodile Bani]

With the current destruction of the COE, the same situation is occuring. Our church and its congregation has split. We now have a former bishop of the COE preaching and on a mission, from what it seems, to remove Mar Dinkha from his position as Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. Now, I'm no longer affluent in the situation as I stopped caring about the Assyrian Church of the East VS Mar Bawi issue that has plauged our nation, but, should we as a nation not question Mar Bawi's motives (point 1) ?

What does this man stand to gain by doing what he is doing (point 2) ? Yes I agree on the terms that there needs to be an investigation about the roles our patriarch and his bishops have played in the issues of the Church, both past and present. But, once those issues are brought to the forfront, then what? Whats next for Mar Bawi? (point 3)

I think the questions that need to be asked are, assuming Mar Dinkha is cleared of accusations brought forth from the Mar Bawi front, what will Mar Bawi and his followers do next? (point 4) If Mar Dinkha is found to have committed or played a part in those accusations, (a) what will happen to his role? and (b) if he's removed as patrach, will Mar Bawi run to take over? (point 5)

Riza,  I have taken the liberty of taking out bits and pieces of your first post to discuss the issues you raised.  If you feel that I cut out vital information, I apologise in advance and by all means correct me.

Point1:  We should question everyone's motives for doing anything.  It is human nature.  If there was food in the house and I left to go out to eat, my mother would always ask why I am doing such a thing.  Between you and me, it was not to eat Riza oo Shourba but to eat a donor kebab.  Anyway, back to Mar Bawai.  There is nothing wrong with asking questions and even expressing doubts.  Mar Bawai himself said in several videos but we are in the age when everything needs to be justified.  Young people no longer believe in things through blind faith.  It all needs to be explained step by step to them.  So his motives need to be explained step by step.  I think SydneyDude has done more than a good job, voicing Mar Bawai's message.

Point 2:  He is working for Christ.  He has said over and over again, that he is not after personal glory and he has asked people not to give it to him but to Jesus Christ.  Therefore, whether you agree or disagree with him, he feels he is doing what Jesus Christ wants him to do and that is what he stands to gain.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Point 3:  If he fixes the problems and achieves his aims which have been outlined over and over again, then he can rest and get on with his life I assume.  I am sure you can appreciate that I am not his voice here which is why I said "assume".

Point 4:  If Mar Dinkha (and Mar Meelis) is cleared of all accusations, then we will have to admit to being wrong.  Nothing more, nothing less.  But this is assuming he is cleared.  Assuming that he is, then I as a Mar Bawai supporter will have no choice but to bite the bullet.  If the court case two months ago is any indication of what is going to follow, it won't be me biting any bullet.  We will see anyway.

Point 5:  I hope it does happen as only then with the ACOE be purified.  However, there would be chaos if all the big boys were cleared out of the ACOE and Mar Bawai was left to take charge.  It happened 20 years ago in the Australian state of Queensland where all its politicians were found to be corrupt.  It cleaned the state up but the chaos in between the new politicians taking over and clearing the corrupt ones was huge.  Now consider this scenario with Assyrians.  See what I mean?  So I like the theory but I see an impractical side of it too.  Hopefully, the renegade bishops will bite the bullet and all will be forgiven. 

 

[Enki]

Moja, read my PM :blush2:

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Good defence on your points. But, this post was more of an attempt to show the similarities between the division of 1551 and the division of 2005. Very similiar in both cases in terms of dispute amongst Bishops and Patriarch.

As I stated, I'm not sure what is going on with the church and therefor can not comment too much on what each individual's motives are.

What I do want to say though, everything Mar Bawi has said thus far, I will admit, have been flawless. He is a man who from what I've seen in his speaches and writings, is humble and is not corrupt. But, whenever something like this happens, it always seems to me as a power struggle.

How do we know for certain he will not eventually lead his followers to Rome or to his own Church? How? He is winning many people over slowly and surly with his words. To me, there always has to be something of a personal gain involved in this. Otherwise, he wouldn't be going around seeking supporters in vulnerable locations (Sydney with its past history with Mar Melis, California with its already divided people with Dadisho and Zowaa, and Cali for another reason, the assassination of the late patriarch and with a large following of people in there from his village).

Moja, you also said you hope Mar Bawi runs for ACOE Patriarchate if Mar Dinkha is found to have had an involvement in those allegations. Well, doesn't that tell you that, that is a mission of his? Just think about his personal gains.

As much as we feel he is a holy figure, we're all human and seek dominance. Its in our blood. He may be a servant of Christ. But every man has his motives and his desires.

To be fair, we wont know what his motives are until they have come through.

Is Mar Bawi out to seek leadership of the COE and move it to Rome as many speculate?

Or is he just another Bishop out to stir a can of worms, only to be forgotten over time in the deep history of the Church?

We wont know until everything is said and done.

 

[Crocodile Bani]

His church is the one that follows Jesus Christ.  This is the only church he is interested in.  He is not interested in the Church of Mar Bawai.

As for him taking over, it is my opinion and something which I would like to see, not necessariliy something he is seeking to do.  It is inconsistant with his speeches that his motive is the be the top gun of the ACOE.  In any case, as long as he is doing the work of Jesus Christ, his motive is not important to me.  The only thing that is important to me is that Assyrians will be worshipping Jesus Christ and know who Jesus Christ is.  Something that I totally believe that Assyrians currently don't which is why I have jumped on the Mar Bawai bandwagon.

Getting back to your very original point and that was the parallels between this incident and the one in 1551.  I disagree once again because I see Mar Bawai trying to correct the past disputes.  His enemies come from those who are against unity.  Just look at the pictures of the number of people at the 7 b'yarkha church listening to what Mar Bawai has to say.  How often does a bishop from one church do the Easter service of another church?  The followers of the 7 b'yarkha church have accepted him because they like his calls for unity and the reunification of the church. 

Only when this dispute is over can we really compare it to the events of 1551.  I see it as correcting the events of 1551 and ones like it which have plagued our already scattered nation.

 

[Senator_Danavi]

I will later come back to further elaborate with evidence and major historical conflicts with such a fautly and flawed analysis of comparing a bishop with personal gains of a Patriarchal seat and one who made it his mission to fight corruption in the church.

1551 - Bishop, willingly, leaves the COE due to a dispute regarding patriarch sucession (neither a religious issue or one in conflict with any of the Holy Scriptures, doctrines, and Sunhadoos).

2005 - Bishop excommuniated in result of his appeal of an illegal (based on the Church doctrines and Sunhadoos) suspension due to his dedication in exposing and ridding corruption (see Bishop Soro stance in 2001 as well as the alleged Group "G" letter).  His closest earthly allies, since this event, are not of the Catholic/Chaldean heirarchy, but of the Ancient Church of the East heirarchy.

Two very different issues, circumstances, and motives.  Fighting corruption with the risk of losing it all and personal gain are two very different scopes when it comes to a Man of God.  Lets not speculate nor paint skewed and illogical pictures of the current situation.  The ACOE Synod is doing enough spin doctoring, for us to also partake in such dirty games.

God Bless!!!