Christians in Kurdish tribes

newguy

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The Kurdish tribes of the Ottoman Empire

Reprinted from Lt. Col. Sir Mark Sykes, The Caliphs' Last Heritage: A short history of the Turkish Empire. London: Macmillan and Co., Limited, 1915, "Appendix," pp. 553-588.

Haruna. 750 families. Sedentary Kurds; 90 of the families are Jacobite Christians.

Domana. 180 families. Tribe of the Tur Abdin; Christians and Moslems.

Moman. 600 families. Moslems, speak Kermanji; 90 families are Christians, also three of the tribal leaders.

Haverka. 1,900 families. Half Christians, half Moslem, speak Kermanji. I suspect some connection with the Haweri Yezidis, No. 48, section A.

Dasikan. 900 families. Yezidis, Moslems and Christian; speak Kermanji; Tur Abdin.

Alian. 1,200 families. Christians, Moslems and Yezidis; language, Kermanji.

Interesting
 
the only thing i get from this is that there are christian kurds! which is a great news! ..cant complain sorry!  :oops:  :blush2:


:bigarmhug:
 
shekwanta said:
the only thing i get from this is that there are christian kurds! which is a great news! ..cant complain sorry!  :oops:   :blush2:


:bigarmhug:

That's not from today, it's a research carried out in ottoman empire time, these christian population can not be found anymore, it seems like they have lost their identity and got a new one.
 
I know from an fromer Assyrian tribe called "Nisani" but they nowadays are assimilated into the Kurds and probably because they first converted (or were forced to convert) to islam and then the nearst local muslim neighbour was the Kurds.

Did you have heard of that tribe? Mabye you got some detailed informations.

Btw. The first to tribes sounds like tribes from a "semitic background" (lingualisticlly seen). Where as Moman, Daskian and Alian sound like standard kurdish tribes ...Barzan, Milan, Baran etc.

Whereas Haverka hmm, could be something armenian?
 
Rumtaya said:
I know from an fromer Assyrian tribe called "Nisani" but they nowadays are assimilated into the Kurds and probably because they first converted (or were forced to convert) to islam and then the nearst local muslim neighbour was the Kurds.

Did you have heard of that tribe? Mabye you got some detailed informations.

Btw. The first to tribes sounds like tribes from a "semitic background" (lingualisticlly seen). Where as Moman, Daskian and Alian sound like standard kurdish tribes ...Barzan, Milan, Baran etc.

Whereas Haverka hmm, could be something armenian?

I'll get you some more information from the link, it's very detailed (17 pages) and basically the author got first hand information and the author wrote what ethnicity certain tribes were before the assimilation, for example he mentioned some tribes in Diyarbakir whom he stated were of Armenian origin.

Another interesting tribe the author talked about were the Alans, because I was always curious to know where Kurds got 'Alan' from (which is also found in Europe) and it seems like a tribe from the Alan empire settled in the area.

I'm mostly interested in knowing what happened to these Christians families! judging from that a big chunk of Kurds today should be christian.
 
The author firstly talks about the "Baban Kurds" which is equivalent to today's slemani and Kirkuk city and it seems like the assimilation of others began from here, and they are the ones that probably assimilated others.

As regards Class I, the tribes catalogued under these figures are very similar to one another in habits and appearance. They are usually wealthy shepherds and only cultivate the ground for auxiliary purposes, though they frequently employ extraneous labour for agriculture and traffic in the produce thus obtained. They are expert smiths, weavers, and tent makers. Mentally they are far superior to the majority of Kurds, being apt to education, astute men of business and very industrious. They live under the rule of hereditary tribal nobles, who are usually very quarrelsome, feuds and intertribal wars being common. These semi-nomads, who are known as the Baba or Baban Kurds, are noted for their chivalry, valour, and proclivities; they are all fine horsemen and expert marksmen, having of late years discarded the lance and sword in favour of the rifle. I should imagine that the great cavalry armies of the Parthians were recruited from similar tribes, as the present evolutions and tactics of these people resemble those of the troops of Surenas as described in Plutarch's Life of Crassus. The patron saint of the Baban Kurds is Khalid-ibn-Walid, whom they hold in great reverence, saying that he converted them from Paganism and the worship of fire.

The author then talks about another class of Kurds, and the author states that they are quite different from the Baban Kurds, and the author also stated that most of the Kurds in this class stated that they used to be Christians.

As regards the mode of life, these Kurds, though sedentary, dwell in bowers erected on the flat roofs of their houses in summer. Like the Baban Kurds their women do not veil and are well treated. Some of the tribes in this category are of opinion that they were converted from Christianity, but most of them have Pagan traditions. Among them dwell a good many Jewish families who are never maltreated, but are not permitted to carry arms or engage in tribal feuds, consequently the Jews travel on trading expeditions from tribe to tribe whether the latter are friends or enemies. Nestorian Christians welling amongst these tribes are occasionally found living in a condition of vassalage, but as often as not share and own lands on an equal footing with the Moslem tribesmen.

Some examples of Baban Kurd tribes:

Shaykh Beseini. 4,000 families. A great and warlike tribe, turbulent and fierce. Noted robbers. Great horsemen. Very intelligent, make Martini-Henry rifles. Live in villages in winter, dwell in tents in the vicinity of their villages in spring. After the harvest (June) proceed to Persian frontier with their flocks. Return n September, or later if the season is hot. Baban Kurds.

Hamawand. 1,200 families. The most valiant, courageous and intelligent of the Baban Kurd tribes. Splendid horsemen, crack shots, capable smiths, bold robbers, good agriculturists; such as enter the government service, prove capable officials. In 1878,600 Hamawand horsemen armed only with lanced penetrated far into the Caucasus and brought back immense spoils. The Turkish government has of late years done much to suppress this tribe's power, but the men are still famous for their prowess and intelligence, and the women for their beauty.

12. Jaff. 10,000 families. A great semi-nomadic tribe, as famous as the Hamawand; Salah-ed-din was supposed to have been of this tribe; they inhabit both sides of the frontier. The Jaff leaders are noted for not betraying one another as do other Kurdish chiefs, hence their numbers and independence. They are supposed to dislike Europeans. Baban Kurds.

 
I see thanks for sharring. You know whats difficult to research, when it is talked about "beeing former christians". Becuase this can mean alot of stuff. Either that they were just Kurds but had the christian faith or that they were Christians in the sense of either Armenians, maybe Greeks and Assyrians.

But I am sure as for The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq you will definitly find some sizeable population of former armenian or assyrian origin. That happend to become muslims (by force or freedomly convert....i guess its more likly the first one) and assimilated into the local muslim group.


Baban Kurds seem to be very close to those on the Iranian Frontier. I dont know if its just me or that thoser "Sorani" Kurds and those who are from Iran might be well more of a possible "median" ancestry, whereas for those Kurmancis its probably more a melting pot of various people.

 
Rumtaya said:
I see thanks for sharring. You know whats difficult to research, when it is talked about "beeing former christians". Becuase this can mean alot of stuff. Either that they were just Kurds but had the christian faith or that they were Christians in the sense of either Armenians, maybe Greeks and Assyrians.

But I am sure as for The Kurds in Turkey and Iraq you will definitly find some sizeable population of former armenian or assyrian origin. That happend to become muslims (by force or freedomly convert....i guess its more likly the first one) and assimilated into the local muslim group.


Baban Kurds seem to be very close to those on the Iranian Frontier. I dont know if its just me or that thoser "Sorani" Kurds and those who are from Iran might be well more of a possible "median" ancestry, whereas for those Kurmancis its probably more a melting pot of various people.

The author calls the Christians 'followers of the nestorian church' and some other tribes state that they used to be Armenians, but I don't think it was done by force, because according to the author all of the Kurdish tribes (except for baban Kurds) didn't care much for religion.

The Kurmanji language/dialect itself is probably the closest to the old median language, but don't forget the original kurmanji people exerted their influence and assimilated a lot of people. Also Kurdish tribes like Barzani can be found in modern day Pakistan, they migrated there during the Median empire wars, as they were sent there to defend the borders.

Us (Sorani Kurds) used to be Gorani speakers the name may be derived from the old Avestan word, gairi, which means mountain. We used to be closer to the Zaza Kurds (dialect wise) and we're quite close to Laki and Lurs (in Iran) I can understand them both.
 
Are there historiclly any informations on possible "mass imigrations of medians into Anatolia and Mesopotamia"? All what I know about Kurmancis nowadays is that they are heavily mixed, probably more then any other kurdish group.

 
Rumtaya said:
Are there historiclly any informations on possible "mass imigrations of medians into Anatolia and Mesopotamia"? All what I know about Kurmancis nowadays is that they are heavily mixed, probably more then any other kurdish group.

I'm not sure, but it's possible because they ruled over those areas. The geographical name "Media" survives in the Modern Iranian geographical name "Māhīda?t" (lit. ?the Median plain,? with "Māh < Māda-") in Kermanshah province.

But your right, Kurmanjis are very mixed... but like I told you before, you can see the difference when you travel from city to city in areas they form a majority and you can clearly see that some people in Van for example look Armenian.

Read this quite interesting:

Note--East of Urfa there is a large settlement of gypsies, who will pretend they are Kurdish tribesmen; the traveller should be on his guard against the information they will give him. The word "Nowar," or the question, "Do you come from Howek?" will invariably silence them, or make them admit their true origin.

I bet now, their just considered to be Kurmanji Kurds and no body even knows that they were actually gypsies.

With regard to Class I, the Kurds in this division are completely sedentary, build fine villages are industrious and intelligent, peaceful, but extremely treacherous, and on occasion ruthless and cruel. Fair hair and blue eyes are not uncommon among them; the men are generally short but handsome and very submissive in their demeanor. To each of these tribes are attached certain families of nomads, all extremely poor, dark skinned and repulsively ugly, who claim common origin with the village dwellers. The whole of Class I are reputed Shias, but undoubtedly have a secret religion.

Again, people that were not Kurds, but today are probably called Kurds.

 
Thanks again quit informativ. That was kind of my though about Anatolia or the Eastern Part, as it was pretty mixed up. Probably with the rise of nationalism many come to be under the Kurdish Nationhood for whatsover reasons.

To each of these tribes are attached certain families of nomads, all extremely poor, dark skinned and repulsively ugly, who claim common origin with the village dwellers. The whole of Class I are reputed Shias, but undoubtedly have a secret religion.

Sounds to some kind of indians mixe with black arabs. Its probably also a reason why the Kurdish Nation did have now such a big population or were able to develope such a huge population.

As for Media they ruled for some centuries over Mesopotamia, but I am not sure on mass immigrations into those areas. However looking at most maps Media had its original boarders somewhere at Rowanduz Suleiymaniah till some area east of Ecbatan (nowadays Hamadan) andto the  all the way up to the Caspian See. Which again just leads me to the fact that most azeris there are just turkified iranians (medians???).


As for tribal Kurdish Royals, I am sure that beeing muslims during the ottoman emprie the kurds or the "noble kurds" had the privilege of beeing master or landlords over some areas that for sure have not always been majority Kurds.

 
Rumtaya said:
Thanks again quit informativ. That was kind of my though about Anatolia or the Eastern Part, as it was pretty mixed up. Probably with the rise of nationalism many come to be under the Kurdish Nationhood for whatsover reasons.

Sounds to some kind of indians mixe with black arabs. Its probably also a reason why the Kurdish Nation did have now such a big population or were able to develope such a huge population.

As for Media they ruled for some centuries over Mesopotamia, but I am not sure on mass immigrations into those areas. However looking at most maps Media had its original boarders somewhere at Rowanduz Suleiymaniah till some area east of Ecbatan (nowadays Hamadan) andto the  all the way up to the Caspian See. Which again just leads me to the fact that most azeris there are just turkified iranians (medians???).


As for tribal Kurdish Royals, I am sure that beeing muslims during the ottoman emprie the kurds or the "noble kurds" had the privilege of beeing master or landlords over some areas that for sure have not always been majority Kurds.

It's quite possible that modern day Azeris formed part of the median empire! but were later turkified! but there has not been much research on this subject I personally think that modern day:

Kurds
Azeris
Lurs
To some degree Baluch

Are descendant of the medes and the Persians are well Persian, I also believe that the name 'Iran' is derived from the union between the Medes (All the groups listed above) and the Persians which they called at that time 'Aria' in reference to land of Aryan, but I think that the fall of the medes led to the eventual domination by the Persians (As they were the single largest group).

You know if it wasn't for the mongol invasion a Kurdistan would have existed today! and the only reason the united Turkic tribes succeeded in the region is because the people of the middle east were severely divided.

Yeah our population increased dramatically due to several other people claiming they were Kurds (even though they weren't) and due to the fact that Kurds assimilated others, but that has it's draw backs too, from my reading I saw that these non-Kurdish tribes were uneducated, poor and very violent...
 
GreenTea said:
This asshole trying to say Assyrians are Kurds... thats what I get  :)

Actually he was saying the opposite, that alot of Kurds are not "real" Kurds but various group who came to identify for couple of reasons with kurdishness. More like some Kurds were originally Assyrians (a fact that should be known to everyone of us).
 
newguy said:
That's not from today, it's a research carried out in ottoman empire time, these christian population can not be found anymore, it seems like they have lost their identity and got a new one.
Oh!  :blink:


:mrgreen:
 
Rumtaya said:
Actually he was saying the opposite, that alot of Kurds are not "real" Kurds but various group who came to identify for couple of reasons with kurdishness. More like some Kurds were originally Assyrians (a fact that should be known to everyone of us).
then...why do they hate us so much!  :blink:      :blush2:
 
shekwanta said:
then...why do they hate us so much!  :blink:      :blush2:

That's a bold statement to make, no?  :blink: we don't hate Assyrians as a group... maybe some Kurds dislike some Assyrians (and likewise for Assyrians) my best friend is half Irish half Assyrian and his second name is Juji (what an awesome name! juji!) is that an Assyrian name?
 
Rumtaya said:
Actually he was saying the opposite, that alot of Kurds are not "real" Kurds but various group who came to identify for couple of reasons with kurdishness. More like some Kurds were originally Assyrians (a fact that should be known to everyone of us).

Yeah. Like my grandfather, although he associated himself with the Kalhuri tribe, he clearly was not because he told me his family was christian before they converted.
 
newguy said:
Yeah. Like my grandfather, although he associated himself with the Kalhuri tribe, he clearly was not because he told me his family was christian before they converted.

What do you mean by saying always "he was christian"? Cause thats something easy changeable since its religious belife. Ethnic or Nationality is somethingelse. Please speak more clear when you talk about it. I get irratated, because beeing Christian can mean everything.

 
newguy said:
That's a bold statement to make, no?  :blink: we don't hate Assyrians as a group... maybe some Kurds dislike some Assyrians (and likewise for Assyrians) my best friend is half Irish half Assyrian and his second name is Juji (what an awesome name! juji!) is that an Assyrian name?
:giggle: :giggle:    :blush2:    





i dont know! u tell me!!  :shades:

 
Juji, are the J french Js? If so then its probably Jaji or Gaggi which is used among assyrians here and there.
 
Rumtaya said:
What do you mean by saying always "he was christian"? Cause thats something easy changeable since its religious belife. Ethnic or Nationality is somethingelse. Please speak more clear when you talk about it. I get irratated, because beeing Christian can mean everything.

I'm not really sure about his ethnicity.. his family converted when he was a small child and I don't think at that time people paid attention to ethnicity but rather recognized each other on 'Moslem' 'Christian' basis
 
newguy said:
I'm not really sure about his ethnicity.. his family converted when he was a small child and I don't think at that time people paid attention to ethnicity but rather recognized each other on 'Moslem' 'Christian' basis


Well that might be the case but in most cases you can still track an ethnicity by knowing what church they was part for (either armenian or assyrian) and also the language he would probably speak or your grandfathers perants or grandperants. Always a way to trace them. Alongside that you would have his original name and family clan name.

 
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