Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .

[mrzurnaci]

Mrzurnaci , let us be realistic please and not rely on rumeurs or my cousin said , my uncle said . Fine KRG would not make it public ,but what about the owner of the land ?
Show me a farmer that KRG took their land from . I mean seriously sometimes I feel you guys live on another planet . There is law and order in Kurdistan and no one would dare to take someone else land .

The public land is another matter and KRG has the right to develop as it see it fit no matter where it is even in the assyrian areas  . The problem is the allergy assyrian have towards kurds , On one hand they want the right to buy land , homes everywhere in Kurdistan , but they want to keep kurds within 10 miles from the nearest village . Land in Kurdistan is expensive and developing public land will happen whether people like or not because it belongs to all people not just the Assyrian . 

we assyrians already did investigations into this. Despite the way Assyrians phrase this issue, it's not the average Kurd taking land. It's Kurds with power that have the connections to do so. Kurds that are either related or have connections to either Barzani, Zebari, or other political clans using such influence to take land from, not just Assyrians, but less influential Kurdish clans, and even Armenians.

Here's my source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Kurdistan.Report.pdf
Here's the condensed version of the source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/KurdistanReport_short_FINAL_lowres.pdf

For the condensed version, I got my info from page 5 called "Control of Disputed Territories and Allegations of Kurdification"
on page 8 condensed version -> "Appropriation of Christian Land"

"Christian citizens of the KRI have issued complaints and
held protests against Kurdish residents for attacking and
seizing their land and villages in the provinces of Dohuk
and Erbil. Some Assyrian Christians accuse Kurdish gov-
ernment and party officials of taking lands for personal
use or financial gain. These Christians believe they
are specifically targeted as part of a policy to Kurdify
historically Christian areas. Other Christian leaders do
not believe a policy exists, but do concede that individual
Kurds and Kurdish businesses have been known to build
on or take Christian land.

Effectively, two types of land appropriation exist.
Significant portions of the claims are long-standing land
ownership issues. Through the late 20th century, Assyri-
ans were caught up in various regional uprisings and sup-
pressions. As a result of these events, large portions of the
population fled their homes and land, for which they con-
tinued to hold the deeds. Over time, Kurds moved in to the
fallow land. Now Christians are returning with their deeds
and attempting to reclaim lands or be compensated.
In addition to these long-standing claims are
alleged incidents where powerful local officials or
businesses seize land on which to build new properties.
Assyrian leaders alluded to various cases where Kurd-
ish officials, or individuals or developers with links
to officials, have built on land owned by Christians.
Seizures in the Nahla Valley have received particular
attention; here, Christians allege 42 encroachments in
the villages in recent years."

 

[nejepnerast]

we assyrians already did investigations into this. Despite the way Assyrians phrase this issue, it's not the average Kurd taking land. It's Kurds with power that have the connections to do so. Kurds that are either related or have connections to either Barzani, Zebari, or other political clans using such influence to take land from, not just Assyrians, but less influential Kurdish clans, and even Armenians.

Here's my source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Kurdistan.Report.pdf
Here's the condensed version of the source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/KurdistanReport_short_FINAL_lowres.pdf

For the condensed version, I got my info from page 5 called "Control of Disputed Territories and Allegations of Kurdification"
on page 8 condensed version -> "Appropriation of Christian Land"

"Christian citizens of the KRI have issued complaints and
held protests against Kurdish residents for attacking and
seizing their land and villages in the provinces of Dohuk
and Erbil. Some Assyrian Christians accuse Kurdish gov-
ernment and party officials of taking lands for personal
use or financial gain. These Christians believe they
are specifically targeted as part of a policy to Kurdify
historically Christian areas. Other Christian leaders do
not believe a policy exists, but do concede that individual
Kurds and Kurdish businesses have been known to build
on or take Christian land.

Effectively, two types of land appropriation exist.
Significant portions of the claims are long-standing land
ownership issues. Through the late 20th century, Assyri-
ans were caught up in various regional uprisings and sup-
pressions. As a result of these events, large portions of the
population fled their homes and land, for which they con-
tinued to hold the deeds. Over time, Kurds moved in to the
fallow land. Now Christians are returning with their deeds
and attempting to reclaim lands or be compensated.
In addition to these long-standing claims are
alleged incidents where powerful local officials or
businesses seize land on which to build new properties.
Assyrian leaders alluded to various cases where Kurd-
ish officials, or individuals or developers with links
to officials, have built on land owned by Christians.
Seizures in the Nahla Valley have received particular
attention; here, Christians allege 42 encroachments in
the villages in recent years."

I will read the material you posted , but one thing I do not understand why is it only Assyrian complaining about their land being taken from them  ? . Frankly I am very skeptical and i see such complain politically and socially motivated . There is independent judicial system that deals with this kind of dispute and it is just to a certain extend just like anywhere in the world .


I can address some of the issues regarding land disputes with certainty . because my family lost all of our lands too and our deeds are meaningless now . During Saddam era there was a law called (????? ??????? ???????) I'm not sure what the English version will be . The law states that if a farmer leave the farm land and move to the city he will lose the deed to the land .The land then is divided and given to other farmers for use .  I know from my personal experience because our land was given to other farmers within a year from moving from our village and we still can not get it back because it has been divided and subdivided within too many people that you do not know who to take to court.


I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds , but that is the case everywhere in the world and Kurdistan is no exception . Justice always depend on how deep you pocket . Even here in Canada there is justice for the poor and justice for the rich and you know that very well .


Kurdify historically Christian areas ? I honestly do not understand this term and no Assyrian i talked to was able to explains how the kurdification of Assyrian is done . Assyrian areas are part of Kurdistan and sheltering it to prevent non Assyrian from moving to the area will never work . People including the Assyrian wants to make money and if a Kurd offer good money for a land owned by an Assyrian and the guy sold it why would the rest of Assyrian have a problem with that ? It is just business  . Many Assyrian buy properties or land from kurds too and you do not hear a beep from kurds .


I understand Assyrian history and I sympathize , but feeling you are being victimized at every corner  is not a good way to live or go forward .

 

[mrzurnaci]

I will read the material you posted , but one thing I do not understand why is it only Assyrian complaining about their land being taken from them  ? . Frankly I am very skeptical and i see such complain politically and socially motivated . There is independent judicial system that deals with this kind of dispute and it is just to a certain extend just like anywhere in the world .


I can address some of the issues regarding land disputes with certainty . because my family lost all of our lands too and our deeds are meaningless now . During Saddam era there was a law called (????? ??????? ???????) I'm not sure what the English version will be . The law states that if a farmer leave the farm land and move to the city he will lose the deed to the land .The land then is divided and given to other farmers for use .  I know from my personal experience because our land was given to other farmers within a year from moving from our village and we still can not get it back because it has been divided and subdivided within too many people that you do not know who to take to court.


I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds , but that is the case everywhere in the world and Kurdistan is no exception . Justice always depend on how deep you pocket . Even here in Canada there is justice for the poor and justice for the rich and you know that very well .


Kurdify historically Christian areas ? I honestly do not understand this term and no Assyrian i talked to was able to explains how the kurdification of Assyrian is done . Assyrian areas are part of Kurdistan and sheltering it to prevent non Assyrian from moving to the area will never work . People including the Assyrian wants to make money and if a Kurd offer good money for a land owned by an Assyrian and the guy sold it why would the rest of Assyrian have a problem with that ? It is just business  . Many Assyrian buy properties or land from kurds too and you do not hear a beep from kurds .


I understand Assyrian history and I sympathize , but feeling you are being victimized at every corner  is not a good way to live or go forward .

it's not just Assyrians, Armenians and Yezidis have been saying this as well. It's also in the report. I posted only Assyrian stuff because that's the point of this thread?

Also, "I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds" - This is the kind of behavior that'll contribute to making Kurdistan a failed state. The last thing the Middle East and Assyrians need is another failed state. The fact that you're downplaying it as a trivial/minor issue is disturbing and shows you don't understand how behavior can affect the society as a whole. Now imagine all Assyrians left the KRG, what if the higher up Kurds did this to your family or relative?

If people in power believe they can do whatever they want with absolutely no consequences of such actions, then they'll do whatever with no regret at all, absolute power corrupts absolutely... It's this kind of behavior from leaders that leads to failed Muslim states of both past and present.

Personally, I'm still for a Kurds getting their own state regardless whether it's a failed one or not.

Secondly, you're talking about FARMLAND being automatically, by-law appropriated. What about non-farm land? Are we assuming all Assyrians that left from instability were living on farm land? Not all land in North is farm-able.

Also, it's clear that many Assyrians and even Kurds to an extent were leaving the North because of instability, it's extremely stupid that people can take their property considering that if they have the capability to leave, they certainly have the capability to come back when the area has become more stable.

Kurdification works similar to Arabization but, instead of Arabs, it's Kurds. Something likely learned from Saddam.

 

[nejepnerast]

it's not just Assyrians, Armenians and Yezidis have been saying this as well. It's also in the report. I posted only Assyrian stuff because that's the point of this thread?

You keep saying that without providing a single evidence that kurds are taking over Assyrian land and homes . Look you do not expect me just to take your word at face value do you ? I mean seriously just because you think it does not make it a fact and now you are throwing the Yezidis and Armenians to the mix ? you think that validate your original point or you are just doing it to adds emotional value ?

Also, "I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds" - This is the kind of behavior that'll contribute to making Kurdistan a failed state. The last thing the Middle East and Assyrians need is another failed state. The fact that you're downplaying it as a trivial/minor issue is disturbing and shows you don't understand how behavior can affect the society as a whole. Now imagine all Assyrians left the KRG, what if the higher up Kurds did this to your family or relative?

If people in power believe they can do whatever they want with absolutely no consequences of such actions, then they'll do whatever with no regret at all, absolute power corrupts absolutely... It's this kind of behavior from leaders that leads to failed Muslim states of both past and present.

Personally, I'm still for a Kurds getting their own state regardless whether it's a failed one or not.

My dear Mr.Zurnaci you are an idealist and if you think the exploitation of poor by the rich will stop then I will strongly advice you to move to another planet . It is happening everywhere in the world including the west in the ugliest  form . I'm not trivializing the matter , but we should not exaggerate too .
You as an assyrian and Me as a Kurd we are just pawns in the game and at the end of the day I promise you we will get nothing . The rich Assyrian and those in the leadership will get richer and continue to fill the head of youth with non sense to empower themselves and no one else . On the surface they claim to care about assyrian , but behiend the close doors they are in bed with rich kurds and rich arabs . The same apply for kurds too  and that is why I despise leaders who claim to be nationalists .

The question I ask myself as a kurd is would I be better in Iraq or In Kurdistan ? and the answer is clear , because there is hope for change in Kurdistan  . Iraq is peddling backward and it is a dangerous place to live in  . So yes Kurdistan is not perfect with lots of problems , but it is heaven in compare to Iraq for those who are not holding another citizenship .

Secondly, you're talking about FARMLAND being automatically, by-law appropriated. What about non-farm land? Are we assuming all Assyrians that left from instability were living on farm land? Not all land in North is farm-able.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you talk about non farm land . Did a Kurd came to an Assyrian village and took over their house after they left ? . I'm sorry , but this sounds funny and it could not be further from truth and such thing does not exist in Kurdistan .
During Saddam era he confiscated Kurdish homes and expelled Kurds from Kirkuk and we still can not get our homes back . What are we suppose to do ? go and kill arabs and force them out of our homes ? You see Iraq is a mess and it is a mess for everyone not just assyrian , but the trend seems to be that Kurds are living like kings . There are problems in Kurdistan left by previous regime and the new regime in Baghdad refused to even deal with it and it will take another 100 years to sort things out . 

Also, it's clear that many Assyrians and even Kurds to an extent were leaving the North because of instability, it's extremely stupid that people can take their property considering that if they have the capability to leave, they certainly have the capability to come back when the area has become more stable.

People did not take their properties . Iraq was a socialist country and farm land was considered government property and you own it as long as you farm it  . The law did not apply to home ownership .

Kurdification works similar to Arabization but, instead of Arabs, it's Kurds. Something likely learned from Saddam.

No it does not and it is not even remotely apply to Assyrian case and i will explain why .

1-how many Assyrian have been deported from Kurdistan and thrown into a desert and their homes and land confiscated by kurds ? Zero
2-How many assyrian are forced to register as kurd and not Assyrian ? Zero
3-Did anyone ever knock on your door to tell you kurd and not Assyrian and if you ever speak Assyrian again they will cut your tongue ? no right ?
4 . How many Assyrian village were razed to the ground to built housing projects for kurds ? zero .
5-How many Assyrian schools are closed by Kurds ? zero

Do not compare Arabisation to so called Kurdification that does not exist . It is easy to throw big words here and there to make some political gains , but it is far away from the truth . Assyrian are stigmatized people and they do not seem to be able to go forward as long as kurds are around . It is time to bury the hatchets and move on with life , because kurds are not going anywhere .

I would still love if you can explain how kurds are kurdifiying assyrian . Still waiting for an answer on that one .

 

[mrzurnaci]

You keep saying that without providing a single evidence that kurds are taking over Assyrian land and homes . Look you do not expect me just to take your word at face value do you ? I mean seriously just because you think it does not make it a fact and now you are throwing the Yezidis and Armenians to the mix ? you think that validate your original point or you are just doing it to adds emotional value ?

The only evidence is anecdotal. I've read and heard stories of Assyrians, Iraqi Armenians, and other Kurds mentioning how either their land or property was taken from them...

Don't believe them if you don't want but if this wasn't true, this wouldn't be a huge issue that's considered a major rift between Kurds and Assyrians now would it?

My dear Mr.Zurnaci you are an idealist and if you think the exploitation of poor by the rich will stop then I will strongly advice you to move to another planet . It is happening everywhere in the world including the west in the ugliest  form . I'm not trivializing the matter , but we should not exaggerate too .
You as an assyrian and Me as a Kurd we are just pawns in the game and at the end of the day I promise you we will get nothing . The rich Assyrian and those in the leadership will get richer and continue to fill the head of youth with non sense to empower themselves and no one else . On the surface they claim to care about assyrian , but behiend the close doors they are in bed with rich kurds and rich arabs . The same apply for kurds too  and that is why I despise leaders who claim to be nationalists.

Whatever you learned in Canada!

The question I ask myself as a kurd is would I be better in Iraq or In Kurdistan ? and the answer is clear , because there is hope for change in Kurdistan  . Iraq is peddling backward and it is a dangerous place to live in  . So yes Kurdistan is not perfect with lots of problems , but it is heaven in compare to Iraq for those who are not holding another citizenship .

Missing the point but whatever.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you talk about non farm land . Did a Kurd came to an Assyrian village and took over their house after they left ? . I'm sorry , but this sounds funny and it could not be further from truth and such thing does not exist in Kurdistan .
During Saddam era he confiscated Kurdish homes and expelled Kurds from Kirkuk and we still can not get our homes back . What are we suppose to do ? go and kill arabs and force them out of our homes ? You see Iraq is a mess and it is a mess for everyone not just assyrian , but the trend seems to be that Kurds are living like kings . There are problems in Kurdistan left by previous regime and the new regime in Baghdad refused to even deal with it and it will take another 100 years to sort things out .

You just love using the false equivalence and putting words in people's mouths don't you? The article I linked clearly says Kurds are BUILDING ON LAND THAT'S OWNED BY ASSYRIANS WITHOUT PERMISSION. Maybe if you actually READ IT, you wouldn't look ignorant right now. I never said Kurds were taking over houses...
You argue like a Canadian liberal and most of them are dumb or ignorant on purpose.

No it does not and it is not even remotely apply to Assyrian case and i will explain why .

1-how many Assyrian have been deported from Kurdistan and thrown into a desert and their homes and land confiscated by kurds ? Zero
2-How many assyrian are forced to register as kurd and not Assyrian ? Zero
3-Did anyone ever knock on your door to tell you kurd and not Assyrian and if you ever speak Assyrian again they will cut your tongue ? no right ?
4 . How many Assyrian village were razed to the ground to built housing projects for kurds ? zero .
5-How many Assyrian schools are closed by Kurds ? zero

Do not compare Arabisation to so called Kurdification that does not exist . It is easy to throw big words here and there to make some political gains , but it is far away from the truth . Assyrian are stigmatized people and they do not seem to be able to go forward as long as kurds are around . It is time to bury the hatchets and move on with life , because kurds are not going anywhere .

I would still love if you can explain how kurds are kurdifiying assyrian . Still waiting for an answer on that one .

Very very dumb statement you wrote. Not only a false equivalence but Kurdification is the process of changing an areas demographics from non-Kurdish to Kurdish.. There's different tactics to achieve the desired effect. What you're doing here is comparing what Saddam did to what Kurds are doing and you're somehow (idiotically) equating them.


#1 How about Barzani and Zebari gangs using Peshmerga to threaten Assyrian villages?
#2 is that why Barzani and other Kurds insult me and other Assyrians by saying that we're "nothing but christian kurds?" when genetics and language clearly demonstrate falsity?
#3 Yes, the Peshmerga has been used in doing that. Peshmerga is a party militia, not a military that's controlled solely by government.
#4 is actually false, I even have video proof that you'll probably just brush off but here you go.
! No longer available
#5 schools being closed isn't part of the definition of arabization or kurdification.

Your Canadian Liberal argument tactics will not work here because I'm not just an Assyrian, I'm also an American conservative living in a liberal city. I argue and fight with liberals similar to you who use liberal arguments and debate tactics just like what you've done.

 

[nejepnerast]

The only evidence is anecdotal. I've read and heard stories of Assyrians, Iraqi Armenians, and other Kurds mentioning how either their land or property was taken from them...

Don't believe them if you don't want but if this wasn't true, this wouldn't be a huge issue that's considered a major rift between Kurds and Assyrians now would it?
Whatever you learned in Canada!

You said it not me , the evidence is anecdotal .

anecdotal: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

You just love using the false equivalence and putting words in people's mouths don't you? The article I linked clearly says Kurds are BUILDING ON LAND THAT'S OWNED BY ASSYRIANS WITHOUT PERMISSION. Maybe if you actually READ IT, you wouldn't look ignorant right now. I never said Kurds were taking over houses...
You argue like a Canadian liberal and most of them are dumb or ignorant on purpose.

My dear Mrzurnaci ,  The lands are either farmland , public land or residential land and in all cases you could not provide a single evidence that what you claim is happening . I do not know what to tell you here . As you said yourself the long long article about religious freedom in Kurdistan was written by Assyrian for Assyrian and frankly it does not holds no factual evidence to anything .

Very very dumb statement you wrote. Not only a false equivalence but Kurdification is the process of changing an areas demographics from non-Kurdish to Kurdish.. There's different tactics to achieve the desired effect. What you're doing here is comparing what Saddam did to what Kurds are doing and you're somehow (idiotically) equating them.

I know what the definition mean and the above does not tell me anything . It is just another anecdotal statement .

#1 How about Barzani and Zebari gangs using Peshmerga to threaten Assyrian villages?

an?ec?do?tal statement . Show me .

#2 is that why Barzani and other Kurds insult me and other Assyrians by saying that we're "nothing but christian kurds?" when genetics and language clearly demonstrate falsity?

That is kurdification lol ? Your feeling is hurt now , Ok Call them gypsies and you are even .

#3 Yes, the Peshmerga has been used in doing that. Peshmerga is a party militia, not a military that's controlled solely by government.

Is that kurdiication too ? So you are not happy with military structure in Kurdistan . me too .

#4 is actually false, I even have video proof that you'll probably just brush off but here you go.

Ok , so the land that belong to ministry of tourism was sold to a private investor and some land that belong to Rabi ismail was sold to haji masud . Where is the problem ? I'm not brushing it off , but i do not see where the problem is .

#5 schools being closed isn't part of the definition of arabization or kurdification.

Kurdish schools being closed and all the curriculum changed from kurdish to arabic is not part of arabisation ?

Your Canadian Liberal argument tactics will not work here because I'm not just an Assyrian, I'm also an American conservative living in a liberal city. I argue and fight with liberals similar to you who use liberal arguments and debate tactics just like what you've done.

I honestly do not know the difference between liberal and conservitive lol . I simply state the facts .

 

[mrzurnaci]

Kurdish schools being closed and all the curriculum changed from kurdish to arabic is not part of arabisation ?

Arabization...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arabize#English

To make Arab; to give Arab traits to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization

"Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: ??????? ta?r?b) describes either the conquest of a non-Arab area and growing Arab influence on non-Arab populations, causing their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and/or their incorporation of Arab culture and Arab identity."

closing down Assyrian and Kurdish schools, deporting and forcefully migrating, and all the other fun dictator stuff is not Arabization, it's an implementation of it. The actions to achieve a desired effect.

cmon man. Did I really have to spell this all out?

Anyways, we're getting off topic so I'm going to restate that I'm in favor for Kurdish sovereignty but I'm still neutral. I don't get involved in what's not my business.

 

[nejepnerast]

Arabization...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arabize#English

To make Arab; to give Arab traits to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization

"Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: ??????? ta?r?b) describes either the conquest of a non-Arab area and growing Arab influence on non-Arab populations, causing their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and/or their incorporation of Arab culture and Arab identity."

closing down Assyrian and Kurdish schools, deporting and forcefully migrating, and all the other fun dictator stuff is not Arabization, it's an implementation of it. The actions to achieve a desired effect.

cmon man. Did I really have to spell this all out?

lol , you raise multiple issues and failed to prove a single point and now you throw wiki definition and run ?is that how you defend the Assyrian cause ? I was hoping you would do a better job , but i was wrong. You are like the rest of Assyrian who are just through dirt at kurds and hoping something would stick .

 

[mrzurnaci]

lol , you raise multiple issues and failed to prove a single point and now you throw wiki definition and run ?is that how you defend the Assyrian cause ? I was hoping you would do a better job , but i was wrong. You are like the rest of Assyrian who are just through dirt at kurds and hoping something would stick .

I have better things to do than to needlessly argue with a Canadian Kurd. It's not as if convincing you would do anything for the Assyrian cause anyway

 

[Bronit Omta]

Pretty blunt poll.

I support it in regions like Slemani, Erbil, Kirkuk but not in Nineveh Plain or Nohadra (Dohuk).

 

[nejepnerast]

I have better things to do than to needlessly argue with a Canadian Kurd. It's not as if convincing you would do anything for the Assyrian cause anyway

Yet you spend countless hours responding to my post! and off cours it will do good for Assyrian . This is a forum and it is read by thousands of Assyrian and non Assyrian . You running a way is never a good thing .

 

[mrzurnaci]

Like I said on the other post. I will support an independent Kurdistan but which one?

The international community is expecting one and only one Kurdistan to exist, not 2,3,4, or 6.

Islam has already gotten you this far, so don't screw it up

 

[mrzurnaci]

Great Kurdistan. It doesn't matter where it will be independent first, even on the MOON. At the end of the day all parts of Kurdistan will join together.

Not sure which part will become independent first, maybe Rojava will be independent first or maybe Ezdixan (Shengal), but eventually all parts will join together. I'm sure that Rojava and Ezdixan will be together, because Rojava Kurds from Qamishli and Ezdi Kurds from Shengal/Shexan (Ezdixan) belong tot the same type Kurmanji Kurds. Related Kurmanji tribes.

impossible, each independent piece of Kurdistan would take a great and devastating civil war to forcefully unite it as one country. That's not even mentioning if Turkey or Iran even gets involved in stopping it by making sure each civil war ends in stalemate.

Why? Because Turkey will influence and back the Kurds in charge of Turkish Kurdistan, same with Iran, same with Iraq, same with Syria...

Unless Kurds de-Islamize, the tribalistic and corruptive nature of Islam will prevent any fully united Kurdistan from happening.

Then again, what did you expect when your mostly follow a religion made up by a cross-dressing bandit who plagiarized the bible and added his own bad ideas?

 

[nejepnerast]

Like I said on the other post. I will support an independent Kurdistan but which one?

The international community is expecting one and only one Kurdistan to exist, not 2,3,4, or 6.

Islam has already gotten you this far, so don't screw it up

I thought the question was specific enough . "for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq" . As for intentional community frankly they do not have a choice but to negotiate with kurds which is a step forward  considering that just 20 years ago kurdish leaders were lucky to have a journalist make an interview with them and now Barzani is meeting the head of states in Erbil  . The total liberation of all parts of Kurdistan will happen in the far future for obvious reason . Kurds have the will are not afraid of anybody including iran , turkey , iraq whom they fought simultaneously for decades . The war against the kurds is unwinnable and they are all beginning to reach this realization .

Frankly at this stage of kurdish struggle no country have the stomach to fight them including iraq , iran and even turkey . Their leaders did a fantastic job shifting the public opinion gaining international public support . The road to complete liberation is still long and as long as they keep the mullas and fanaticism out of kurdistan they will reach their goals .

 

[mrzurnaci]

I thought the question was specific enough . "for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq" . As for intentional community frankly they do not have a choice but to negotiate with kurds which is a step forward  considering that just 20 years ago kurdish leaders were lucky to have a journalist make an interview with them and now Barzani is meeting the head of states in Erbil  . The total liberation of all parts of Kurdistan will happen in the far future for obvious reason . Kurds have the will are not afraid of anybody including iran , turkey , iraq whom they fought simultaneously for decades . The war against the kurds is unwinnable and they are all beginning to reach this realization .

Frankly at this stage of kurdish struggle no country have the stomach to fight them including iraq , iran and even turkey . Their leaders did a fantastic job shifting the public opinion gaining international public support . The road to complete liberation is still long and as long as they keep the mullas and fanaticism out of kurdistan they will reach their goals .

at least the kurdistan off iraq would make a great deportation destination for Kurds living in Turkey. Don't think the Turkish government won't do that either...

"Frankly at this stage of kurdish struggle no country have the stomach to fight them including iraq , iran and even turkey".
Kind of an ignorant statement, what would Iraq, Iran, or Turkey gain from fighting Kurds other than to maintain borders?
War is EXPENSIVE, it's a stupid idea to go to war unless you're going to get something out of it. USA goes to war to protect its interests that keep it as the worlds most powerful nation.

Hell, the war against ISIS has already drained alot of the KRGs money itself if you haven't noticed already. you gotta pay for soldiers OR are you telling me young kurdish men completely risked their life for no reward or pay? I doubt that considering Middle Eastern mentality would make them money hungry.

"The road to complete liberation is still long"
There is no road, it'd be impossible for "complete" liberation.

You seriously believe that the Middle East, let alone the rest of the world, would allow for a complete Kurdistan? There's a good reason why the Arab states are broken up and one reason is to keep them weak. Secondly, you can't always keep the mullahs and religious fanatics, they're like cancer. They'll grow as they only need a moment of weakness... This wouldn't be an issue though if you de-Islamized the KRG however... But as soon as you de-Islamize, the Middle East will grow colder to your "kuffar" nation.

My dad always says that all Assyrians (and other Christians) should leave the Middle East so there's nobody in between for Muslims to kill each other.

Assyrians like me can always return back when it's actually safe. It seems like it'd be easier for me to make an autonomous Assyrian state in Europe or even the USA.
Sucks we have to leave the homeland we were born from but the land will always be there.

beige area was Assyrian population in 1000 AD, green is now

 

[Etain]

My dad always says that all Assyrians (and other Christians) should leave the Middle East so there's nobody in between for Muslims to kill each other.

with all due respect,
STUPID

Assyrian survived caliphates,the ottoman empire, the persians.But nothing did more damage than US intervention in the middle east.

 

[mrzurnaci]

with all due respect,
STUPID

Assyrian survived caliphates,the ottoman empire, the persians.But nothing did more damage than US intervention in the middle east.

damage no. Assyrians made up alot of Iraq's middle class, so they had money to simply leave then possibly come back if Iraq becomes more safe but it's more likely that Iraq will not be safe for a long time.

Secondly, it's like I said. even if all Assyrians left, the land will still be there and we Assyrians can always go back. I mean Assyrians outside the Middle East don't have the stupid mentality that endorses selfishness, irrationality, and stubbornness. Some Assyrians may still have it but Assyrians outside the Middle East don't have much of that mentality to the point where it becomes self destructive.

If Kurds want their Kurdistan, go ahead but don't complain if it turns bad and the USA backstabs you for disobeying their orders.

Being a western puppet isn't free and comes at a high cost that I hope Kurds are willing and able to pay.

 

[nejepnerast]

at least the kurdistan off iraq would make a great deportation destination for Kurds living in Turkey. Don't think the Turkish government won't do that either...

As you might notice southern kurdistan is already open to kurds from all part of kurdistan who work and live there , so i failed to see your point . Are you saying that turkey will deport 30 million plus kurd to iraqi kurdistan ?

Kind of an ignorant statement, what would Iraq, Iran, or Turkey gain from fighting Kurds other than to maintain borders?
War is EXPENSIVE, it's a stupid idea to go to war unless you're going to get something out of it. USA goes to war to protect its interests that keep it as the worlds most powerful nation.

Turkey and iran and iraq will not invade southren kurdistan even if it declare independce now . The tragidies the kurds faced in the past emboldened them and they are ready for a war knowing their enemies can never win  . Add to that the international community will never allow it to happen . Even Closing the boarder and starving them is not an option either because it will totally destabilize their countries too and will put their kurds against them . Frankly i do not see any sc?nario where kurds could lose , because no matter what happen it will be a step forward .

Hell, the war against ISIS has already drained alot of the KRGs money itself if you haven't noticed already. you gotta pay for soldiers OR are you telling me young kurdish men completely risked their life for no reward or pay? I doubt that considering Middle Eastern mentality would make them money hungry.

being a peshmerga in kurdistan is compared to being a holy man  , Notice in restaurants their bill is always paid for in advance by customers and restaurant owners who refuse to take their money  .
Kurds having been fighting for FREE for decades . If KRG open the door for enlisting in new peshmerga forces they could easily enlist a million young kurds form other parts of kurdistan within weeks , but they do not need that .Money has never been a priority for kurds and if it was they would have put their head down and continue receiving billions that baghdad was sending to them . 

There is no road, it'd be impossible for "complete" liberation
You seriously believe that the Middle East, let alone the rest of the world, would allow for a complete Kurdistan? There's a good reason why the Arab states are broken up and one reason is to keep them weak. Secondly, you can't always keep the mullahs and religious fanatics, they're like cancer. They'll grow as they only need a moment of weakness... This wouldn't be an issue though if you de-Islamized the KRG however... But as soon as you de-Islamize, the Middle East will grow colder to your "kuffar" nation.

I have always maintained that One Kurdistan would not be possible due to deep ideological differences among kurdish entities . 2 or 3 would be more logical  .
agreed about the danger of islam which is like a swing . The harder you push it away the harder is comes back at you and iran is a good example . Maintaining a balance would do the trick and it worked for many nations .

My dad always says that all Assyrians (and other Christians) should leave the Middle East so there's nobody in between for Muslims to kill each other.

Your dad is wrong . They can kill eaCHother just fine with you between them , hell they enlist you now in their fights . Did you hear about NPU VS BB ?

Assyrians like me can always return back when it's actually safe. It seems like it'd be easier for me to make an autonomous Assyrian state in Europe or even the USA.
Sucks we have to leave the homeland we were born from but the land will always be there.

Stay safe and see what will be left when you feel safe going back .

beige area was Assyrian population in 1000 AD, green is now

is this suppose to mean something ?
I do not see what you see , I see that assyrian went on killing everyone who oppose them  until they took control of this land in 1000 ad to call it assyria and call all the population assyrian . The ottoman are proud of their achievements too and they had bigger territories .

 

[mrzurnaci]

As you might notice southern kurdistan is already open to kurds from all part of kurdistan who work and live there , so i failed to see your point . Are you saying that turkey will deport 30 million plus kurd to iraqi kurdistan ?

No, I'm saying Turkey can start a war against their Kurdish population and then run a propaganda campaign to convince them to migrate to KRG.

Turkey and iran and iraq will not invade southren kurdistan even if it declare independce now . The tragidies the kurds faced in the past emboldened them and they are ready for a war knowing their enemies can never win  . Add to that the international community will never allow it to happen . Even Closing the boarder and starving them is not an option either because it will totally destabilize their countries too and will put their kurds against them . Frankly i do not see any sc?nario where kurds could lose , because no matter what happen it will be a step forward .

Again, what would any of the countries gain from attacking the KRG? Iraq would probably do it in a bid to regain the oil fields of Kirkuk but other than that, there's no real gain. You're making it seem like Arabs, Iran, and Turkey have some ingrained hate towards Kurds. From experience, no humans naturally hate others unless they were wronged by them.

being a peshmerga in kurdistan is compared to being a holy man  , Notice in restaurants their bill is always paid for in advance by customers and restaurant owners who refuse to take their money  .
Kurds having been fighting for FREE for decades . If KRG open the door for enlisting in new peshmerga forces they could easily enlist a million young kurds form other parts of kurdistan within weeks , but they do not need that .Money has never been a priority for kurds and if it was they would have put their head down and continue receiving billions that baghdad was sending to them . 

I don't believe your propaganda considering KRG's Peshmerga are divided between the KDP and the PUK. Then there's the PKK and PJAK. PJAK, PKK, and the PUK all serve under the Kurdistan Communities Union.

Also, most of the Kurdish population lives in Turkey so those million younglings would most likely be from Turkey.

I have always maintained that One Kurdistan would not be possible due to deep ideological differences among kurdish entities . 2 or 3 would be more logical  .
agreed about the danger of islam which is like a swing . The harder you push it away the harder is comes back at you and iran is a good example . Maintaining a balance would do the trick and it worked for many nations .

One Kurdistan is not impossible but it'll come at a very high cost which political enemies could take advantage of: Civil War. To have one country, the territory has to be united under one government by that governments loyal forces. This means one Kurdish government would have to fight the others and gain credibility from their populations.

Your dad is wrong . They can kill eaCHother just fine with you between them , hell they enlist you now in their fights . Did you hear about NPU VS BB ?

NPU vs BB is old news and it's been settled, the issue was a few members of BB were trying to loot and the NPU stopped them.

Stay safe and see what will be left when you feel safe going back .

Safety? In Muslim countries? That's hilarious.

is this suppose to mean something ?
I do not see what you see , I see that assyrian went on killing everyone who oppose them  until they took control of this land in 1000 ad to call it assyria and call all the population assyrian.

Well you're blind then because the colors represents Aramaic speakers. The orange was Aramaic spread during Persian empires. the Beige color (1000 CE) in Mesopotamia clearly shows the Assyrian population back 1000 years ago. The Green color in Mesopotamia is now.

Sharaf Khan Bidlisi even acknowledged over 1,000 years ago that Northern Iraq was Assyrian. If Islam didn't exist, Kurdistan would've been entirely inside Iran and Azerbaijan, practicing Zoroastrianism.

 

[nejepnerast]

No, I'm saying Turkey can start a war against their Kurdish population and then run a propaganda campaign to convince them to migrate to KRG.

You are making very little sense today . So turkey would start a war against their krudish population ? you think turkey is not at war with kurds ? and then use Propaganda ? lol to convince ? lol

Again, what would any of the countries gain from attacking the KRG? Iraq would probably do it in a bid to regain the oil fields of Kirkuk but other than that, there's no real gain. You're making it seem like Arabs, Iran, and Turkey have some ingrained hate towards Kurds. From experience, no humans naturally hate others unless they were wronged by them.

at least we agree that there will not be war .

I don't believe your propaganda considering KRG's Peshmerga are divided between the KDP and the PUK. Then there's the PKK and PJAK. PJAK, PKK, and the PUK all serve under the Kurdistan Communities Union. Also, most of the Kurdish population lives in Turkey so those million younglings would most likely be from Turkey.

You obviously know very little about kurdistan , so i will not force my views .

One Kurdistan is not impossible but it'll come at a very high cost which political enemies could take advantage of: Civil War. To have one country, the territory has to be united under one government by that governments loyal forces. This means one Kurdish government would have to fight the others and gain credibility from their populations.

look at you , you are more optimistic about the future than me  , but it is contradictory to your earlier statement . "There is no road, it'd be impossible for "complete" liberation"

NPU vs BB is old news and it's been settled, the issue was a few members of BB were trying to loot and the NPU stopped them Safety?

The tension is high between the two groups and both are part of Hashd alshabi , so they take their orders from shias . What were they looting ?

Well you're blind then because the colors represents Aramaic speakers. The orange was Aramaic spread during Persian empires. the Beige color (1000 CE) in Mesopotamia clearly shows the Assyrian population back 1000 years ago. The Green color in Mesopotamia is now.
Sharaf Khan Bidlisi even acknowledged over 1,000 years ago that Northern Iraq was Assyrian. If Islam didn't exist, Kurdistan would've been entirely inside Iran and Azerbaijan, practicing Zoroastrianism.

yes i get what you are trying to say , but even if what you say is truth what does it matter . ? what does it exactly give and take or do . If your people occupied all this land , I'm sure came at the expense of other nations and if there were so many of them what happened to them ? did they just vanish ? I'm very skeptical about history , it is empires built on empires on empires and everyone claim to be the first . What matter in my view is who is the last .

 

[nejepnerast]

I'm sure that a referendum is a trap of Americans to get rid of Sunni Muslim Daesh terrorist midget Barzani and his pimp Erdogan. Barzani has no choice, because if there will be no referendum Barzani will loose his power and PKK will take over Bashur (Southern Kuridstan).

After the referendum of independent Barzanistan, Barzanistan will get a fury of the Persians. Persians will start a war against Barzanistan and the REAL Kurds are not going to help Barzani. The REAL Kurds want to see the destruction of Barzani, so REAL Kurds (Ezdi Kurds, PKK, ROjava and Bakur/Zaza Kurds) will NEVER going to help Barzanistan.

Americans are creating a war between Barzanistan and mighty Persia.


No matter what Barzani will do, he is losing. Why? Because he betrayed Kurdish Aryan race to the Turks, he betrayed the people of Bashur (Southern Kurdistan), he committed a GENOCIDE in Ezdixan. Therefore he will go down. Such horrific crimes never got unpunished. He is finished big time very, very soon! Sunni Muslims are f*cked!

The great persia hanging Pjak fighters in the streets .

Yep persians are our brothers . It is Ok if they hang few Pjak/PKK fighters . Brothers do that sometimes right ?

wait , was not persian who hanged him , Qazi mohamad ? and killed Qasimlo ? do i need to go on ?

 

[Cascade]

The great persia hanging Pjak fighters in the streets .

Yep persians are our brothers . It is Ok if they hang few Pjak/PKK fighters . Brothers do that sometimes right ?

wait , was not persian who hanged him , Qazi mohamad ? and killed Qasimlo ? do i need to go on ?

Thanks for these grotesque images. This is a proof that Iranians are primitive and even more barbaric than Arabs.

Something that Iranian Assyrians stubbornly refuse to fathom, and would instead pick on Arabs all the time for being more inhumane and violent.

 

[nejepnerast]

Thanks for these grotesque images. This is a proof that Iranians are primitive and even more barbaric than Arabs.

Something that Iranian Assyrians stubbornly refuse to fathom, and would instead pick on Arabs all the time for being more inhumane and violent.

Sadly Assyrian abroad are blinded by hatred and they would rather see the complete destruction of whatever left of Assyrian in kurdistan than the establishment of Kurdistan . Iran is called (The Islamic republic of Iran ) lol , might as well call it the Terrorist republic of iran .

 

[Cascade]

Sadly Assyrian abroad are blinded by hatred and they would rather see the complete destruction of whatever left of Assyrian in kurdistan than the establishment of Kurdistan . Iran is called (The Islamic republic of Iran ) lol , might as well call it the Terrorist republic of iran .

Sometimes I really disagree with you, but at others I'm like 100% on your side. Really funny.

Assyrians only like Iran because they recognize us. Lol. Pretty lame reason to like a country. I'm pretty sure ISIS recognizes Assyrians as peoples. Doesn't mean we should bow to them. Iran is a horrible country ruled by a holocaust-denying, Islamic barbarian. And that's that. Whether it recognizes us or not, I really don't care. They're still pernicious and inhumane.

 

[nejepnerast]

Sometimes I really disagree with you, but at others I'm like 100% on your side. Really funny.

Assyrians only like Iran because they recognize us. Lol. Pretty lame reason to like a country. I'm pretty sure ISIS recognizes Assyrians as peoples. Doesn't mean we should bow to them. Iran is a horrible country ruled by a holocaust-denying, Islamic barbarian. And that's that. Whether it recognizes us or not, I really don't care. They're still pernicious and inhumane.

I'm a true believer that what we do makes us who we are , not our religion or nationality . Assyrian abroad are doing a terrible job . Instead of focusing on the Assyrian future back home  they are busy on a crusade against the kurd which will get them nothing . I'm from Dohuk and if you go to down town and tell everyone you meet that you are Assyrian , people will look at you like you have a mental issue , because no one cares about these things . Hold the Assyrian flag and walk in the market and I promise no one will touch you . Go built an assyrian school and you will get funding from the government . Go make a political party or establish humanitarian organization for Assyrian and you will not hear a beep from Anyone .  Majority of Kurds are beyond this non sense and they want to go forward , now off course you will find ultra nationalist kurds here and there , but they are rejected by the society and have no power .