A mystery I am trying to understand: Brazil vs. Argentina : 1986-1994

[ASHOOR]

Here is a historical soccer mystery that I observed that would love someone to explain. While I did like Brazil back then, I was barely 10, so didn’t understand or follow the game as closely

1986: Argentina wins the World Cup in great fashion, thanks to great heroics from Maradona.

1989 Copa America, with mostly same team and even more experienced Maradona, they play bad to the point of scoring zero goals in the second round. In fact even in the first round , they only manage two goals. Brazil of course goes on to win the title in a very convincing fashion, ending a 4 decade drought.

1990: the scenario reverses once again, with mostly same Argentina team, but a much different Brazil team with the absence of Romario and Bebeto.

If Brazil had mostly same squad from 1989, would they have advanced further in 1990? I mean in 1994, the squad looked similar to 1989 and they did win it all.

 

[Crocodile Bani]

Great observation but not totally accurate.

Firstly, Bebeto and Romario were in the 1990 squad. Bebeto was used as a late substitute against Costa Rica and Romario, who had just recovered from a broken leg, started against Scotland but otherwise did nothing in that game and was not used against Argentina in the next game.

Between 1986 and 1990, Argentina chopped and changed their team several times. In 1988, Argentina (without Maradona) lost 4-1 to Australia. Several of that team still made the Italia90 squad. The 1989 Copa America team, which featured Maradona, had several experimental players just like in the game against Australia.

Now, about Brazil at Italia90. Coach Sebastau Lazaroni wanted to "Europeanise" the Brazil team, and they did not play the same style that they had played when they won the 1989 Copa America. At the Copa America, Bebeto was the player of the tournament, while his striking partner Romario scored the winning goal of the final. A player who was not in the Copa America squad was Napoli's Careca. He did play in the World Cup qualifiers.

Lazaroni had a dilemma regarding the strikers. The best striking combination was Bebeto-Romario, but Careca was considered the best Brazilian striker. During the qualifiers, Lazaroni tried Careca-Bebeto, Careca-Romario and Bebeto-Romario. It was Bebeto-Romario which worked best.

Unfortunately in early 1990, Romario broke his leg playing for PSV, which meant that Romario was close to missing the World Cup. Careca and Bebeto, despite being great players, never combined well. Meanwhile, one striker who had an awesome relationship with Careca was Muller. careca and Muller spent years as team mates at sao paulo and knew each other's game well. Despite bebeto being a better player than Muller, it was considered best that Muller play alongside Careca.

In the end, at Italia90, Brazil outplayed Argentina and still lost. the great thing to come out of that was that no coach will ever Europeanise the team like that ever again.

 

[Eddie Yousif]

Brazil 86 was a much better & Stronger team than 90 & even 94. They should have been in the final against Argentina.

They had the Great Zico, Soccrates and a Young Carreca on fire. Very unlucky to lose on Penalties against France!

 

[ASHOOR]

Brazil 86 was a much better & Stronger team than 90 & even 94. They should have been in the final against Argentina.

They had the Great Zico, Soccrates and a Young Carreca on fire. Very unlucky to lose on Penalties against France!

Man, wouldn't that be something? Maradonna vs. Zico!

Who do you think would have won? I don't know much about that generation as I was only 6 and I only watched and read about it. I mean I know how good they were, but how much chance would they have against Maradona?

 

[ASHOOR]

Great observation but not totally accurate.

Firstly, Bebeto and Romario were in the 1990 squad. Bebeto was used as a late substitute against Costa Rica and Romario, who had just recovered from a broken leg, started against Scotland but otherwise did nothing in that game and was not used against Argentina in the next game.

Between 1986 and 1990, Argentina chopped and changed their team several times. In 1988, Argentina (without Maradona) lost 4-1 to Australia. Several of that team still made the Italia90 squad. The 1989 Copa America team, which featured Maradona, had several experimental players just like in the game against Australia.

Now, about Brazil at Italia90. Coach Sebastau Lazaroni wanted to "Europeanise" the Brazil team, and they did not play the same style that they had played when they won the 1989 Copa America. At the Copa America, Bebeto was the player of the tournament, while his striking partner Romario scored the winning goal of the final. A player who was not in the Copa America squad was Napoli's Careca. He did play in the World Cup qualifiers.

Lazaroni had a dilemma regarding the strikers. The best striking combination was Bebeto-Romario, but Careca was considered the best Brazilian striker. During the qualifiers, Lazaroni tried Careca-Bebeto, Careca-Romario and Bebeto-Romario. It was Bebeto-Romario which worked best.

Unfortunately in early 1990, Romario broke his leg playing for PSV, which meant that Romario was close to missing the World Cup. Careca and Bebeto, despite being great players, never combined well. Meanwhile, one striker who had an awesome relationship with Careca was Muller. careca and Muller spent years as team mates at sao paulo and knew each other's game well. Despite bebeto being a better player than Muller, it was considered best that Muller play alongside Careca.

In the end, at Italia90, Brazil outplayed Argentina and still lost. the great thing to come out of that was that no coach will ever Europeanise the team like that ever again.

Great and informative post as always!

-Oh I had no idea they were there in 1990! Romario is one of those unlucky players in the wold cup, in that he only particiapated in one world cup , and missed on 1998 and 2002: there is no way Brazil would lose if he played in 1998, alongside Ronaldo, to relieve some of the pressure off of him. And in 2002, even at 36, he would have been great sub, even if Brazil was stacked.

As for Brazil 1990, given what you mentioned, wonder what would happen if we had a striking trio of Careca, Bebeto and Romario? For one, even if the three may not be a good combination together, they would have scored against Argentina and avoid losing such late in the game, especially since you mentioned they were the better side.


ASHOOR

 

[Eddie Yousif]

Man, wouldn't that be something? Maradonna vs. Zico!

Who do you think would have won? I don't know much about that generation as I was only 6 and I only watched and read about it. I mean I know how good they were, but how much chance would they have against Maradona?

i don't think anyone could have stopped Maradona and Argentina in 86, but it would have been a mighty final, rather than Germany who did quite well. They were 2-0 Down and all gone but came back to Draw 2-2 before a late Maradona Magic Gave Argentina the Cup!

 

[Crocodile Bani]

History shows that France knocked Brazil out of the 1986 World Cup after easily, the greatest match of football ever played.

However, France's penalty shoot-out win came at a price. In one of the fastest matches in history, played in a hot environment, played at altitude, France was exhausted by Brazil. So although they had beaten Brazil, they themselves were beaten. In the semi final against West Germany, they looked exhausted and preferred to be elsewhere. Joel Bats, after his epic goalkeeping performance against Brazil, let in a simple goal from a free kick taken by Andreas Brehme that he would have stopped if it were the game against Brazil.

For me, the final was that epic quarter final between France and Brazil. Not only was it the greatest match in history (I challenge anyone to name a better match EVER), it was between the 2 best teams of Mexico86. Unfortunately, thanks to this match, neither team made the final.

Who would have won between France/Brazil or Argentina? If both teams were fully fit and with enough rest, no way would Argentina have beaten either France or Brazil. Argentina was a one man team and while other lesser teams could not deal with the amazing Diego Maradona, both Brazil and France had a team to nullify his threat.

Can I ever prove anything I have said above? Unfortunately, we will never know what a fresh France would have done in the semi final against West Germany, or if the referee knew the rules regarding penalty shoot-outs, what a fresh Brazil would have done to West Germany and then Argentina. It is all speculation. Such a shame because in 1982 and 1986, Brazil and France were the 2 best teams of those 2 world cups and neither made the final.

 

[ASHOOR]

History shows that France knocked Brazil out of the 1986 World Cup after easily, the greatest match of football ever played.

However, France's penalty shoot-out win came at a price. In one of the fastest matches in history, played in a hot environment, played at altitude, France was exhausted by Brazil. So although they had beaten Brazil, they themselves were beaten. In the semi final against West Germany, they looked exhausted and preferred to be elsewhere. Joel Bats, after his epic goalkeeping performance against Brazil, let in a simple goal from a free kick taken by Andreas Brehme that he would have stopped if it were the game against Brazil.

For me, the final was that epic quarter final between France and Brazil. Not only was it the greatest match in history (I challenge anyone to name a better match EVER), it was between the 2 best teams of Mexico86. Unfortunately, thanks to this match, neither team made the final.

Who would have won between France/Brazil or Argentina? If both teams were fully fit and with enough rest, no way would Argentina have beaten either France or Brazil. Argentina was a one man team and while other lesser teams could not deal with the amazing Diego Maradona, both Brazil and France had a team to nullify his threat.

Can I ever prove anything I have said above? Unfortunately, we will never know what a fresh France would have done in the semi final against West Germany, or if the referee knew the rules regarding penalty shoot-outs, what a fresh Brazil would have done to West Germany and then Argentina. It is all speculation. Such a shame because in 1982 and 1986, Brazil and France were the 2 best teams of those 2 world cups and neither made the final.

Fascinating historical insights, thanks Bani!!

Now you make me want to watch that game between France and Brazil, as I have otherwise only watched highlights of it.

It is sad to know that Brazil lost not only on their golden chance in 1982, but also in 1986. But then again, if not for these two disappointments, we may not have had the triumph and glory that followed from 1994 till 2006 and all the World Cups, Copa Americas and Confederation Cups, not to mention all the individual accolades by the likes of Romario, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Kaka. Which is why I hope the disappointments of the last 20 years will eventually usher in a new genration that will start winning again, beginning in 2026 (Endrick, Vinicius, Rodrygo, Martinelli, and others, I am looking at you....)

 

[Crocodile Bani]

You know, getting back to your original question regarding Brazil and Argentina, the biggest mystery regarding these 2 teams is not what you had mentioned (in my opinion).

Brazil and Argentina have always had skillful and flamboyant players. Their teams play an attacking type of game which is very entertaining to watch. Their best players play for some of the biggest clubs in the world.

The mystery for me is, why is Brazil so loved and admired around the world, but the same amount of love has never been given to Argentina. Almost like Argentina is the evil twin of Brazil. Some tell me it is because of Pele, but even an oldie like me is too young to have seen him play live (I have seen many videos though). Some say it is because of the way Maradona was portrayed by the media, but even before Maradona came on the scene, Argentina was never loved in the way that Brazil was. Garrincha was an alcoholic who left his wife and 8 kids, Josimar (1986 World Cup star) was suspended for cocaine and Neymar ruined his legacy in 2018 World Cup with the play acting, yet it never affected the way people felt about Brazil, yet Maradona and Canniggia's drug problem always is used as an excuse to not like Argentina.

Interested to hear other people's opinion about this.