Author Topic: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church  (Read 10551 times)

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Offline Concerned Assyrian

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500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« on: September 09, 2011, 09:51:14 AM »
500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church

500 Assyrian Catholics have left the Chaldean Catholic Eparchy in California led by Bishop Sarhad Jammo stating that Bishop Jammo and the Chaldean Catholic Church "continuously denie/s and demote/s our Assyrian heritage and identity, promoting and imposing [his] Chaldean identity upon us ...".

This group has now joined the Latin-rite church via the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Jose meaning that they will not be able to enjoy the Eucharist and pastoral services in their own Assyrian language. They will be, presumably, celebrating in English. Although this group is composed of Catholics who are strong in their Catholic faith, joining the Latin-rite church will not help them in maintaining their Assyrian identity and heritage to the extent that it is maintained in churches recognising and promoting the Assyrian identity of their members.  

It is about time that Assyrians suffering under the misguided attempts of the Chaldean Catholic Church to change the identity of so many of its members, speak up and take action ... even if this action may be difficult and heart-wrenching.  

For full details see: http://www.assyriancatholics.com/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 09:52:51 AM by Concerned Assyrian »


Disunited, dispersed in exile, and as dwindling minorities without full civil rights in their homelands, the Assyrians of today are in grave danger of total assimilation and extinction. In order to survive as a nation, they must now unite under the Assyrian identity of their ancestors. It is the only identity that can help them to transcend the differences between them, speak with one voice again, catch the attention of the world, and regain their place among the nations. Dr Simo Parpola

Offline Rumtaya

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 12:02:59 PM »
That was a bad move, because if it keeps on going like that then those who are fine off with an chaldean identity will stay within the church and those that are not, will leave which results into "the chaldean church that is also the chaldean nation".


Offline Hanuni

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2011, 12:31:07 PM »
Very bad move.
“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2011, 12:57:16 PM »
If I were in their spot, I would rather found an 'Assyrian Catholic Church' than going to a non-Assyrian church if I wanted to keep my Chatholic faith.
Btw, isn´t there such an 'Assyrian Chatholic Church' which does not belong to the ACOE or Ancient Church of the East ?
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2011, 01:34:12 PM »
I had heard about this before but wasn't sure if it was confirmed or just a rumor.

Why is it a bad move? Rumtaya, I didn't quiet understand your reasoning, can you elaborate please?


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Offline ASHOOR

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 01:46:48 PM »
I see it this way: those who were afraid to leave before, out of fear of being looked at with disgust or betrayal, can now do so freely, including to go back to an Assyrian church where they can actually say openly that they are Assyrian.

In other words, if church prevented them before, nothing does now from being 'Assyrian'

I could see that happening here in Toronto too. I have never been to the Chaldean church here but I have heard a lot of negative things from the members about their bishop and how he runs things, to the point of alienating them.

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Offline ASHUR

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 03:23:23 PM »
Jammo's a fool, and doesn't have the full support of his congregation.  Even those members that identify themselves as Chaldeans do not like the secessionist movement started by the two bishops in Detoit and San Diego. 

That being said, my dissappointment with the members that left their church is that they are letting someone tell them who they are.  Nobody stops them from saying they are Assyrian in any church, and I suspect their frustration stems from Jammo telling them they are not Assyrian or that Chaldeans and Assyrians are different, which is the ultimate movement of disunity.

This will continue to happen as long as we have Bishops and other Church "leaders", regardless of denomination, telling us who we are. 
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

Offline esz

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 07:42:11 PM »
I belonged to this congregation in San Jose before moving out to NYC. I can tell you right now that the decision to split off wasn't made lightly. The congregation has heard that they are Chaldeans by association and should accept it as such. The bishop has brought in members from outside the area and co-opted some of the remaining members to "take over" the sita and that's exactly what they have done. There was no room for compromise -- so the decision was to either submit to Jammo's authority or break away. Guess what they did?

Offline davidb

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 09:00:40 PM »
Assyrians dividing..how unusual..

Offline esz

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 09:03:00 PM »
The division was already cast more than a decade ago. The difference now is that you either stand up for what you believe in or cower to the demands of others and accept your fate. Sometimes division is necessary for growth.

Offline davidb

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 09:09:35 PM »
You go to church, you read the bible, you sing the hymns and you take your biscuit, it ends there. You don't have to attend Jammo's Chaldean promotion party's just because you attend his Church. All this does is raise the issue of Assyrians not being able to differentiate between religion and nation. 


Offline Free_Assyria

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2011, 06:41:48 AM »
Another church is just what we need.
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline esz

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 09:41:33 AM »
You go to church, you read the bible, you sing the hymns and you take your biscuit, it ends there. You don't have to attend Jammo's Chaldean promotion party's just because you attend his Church. All this does is raise the issue of Assyrians not being able to differentiate between religion and nation.  


The matter is that Jammo is using the Church as a political tool in his quest for all things Chaldeans. See this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38924859/Chaldean/July24_1102.pdf as it's on the 'About Us' section
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 09:49:46 AM by esz »

Offline ASHUR

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 12:01:41 PM »
Seperation of church and state in the Assyrian nation will never be realized as long as we ALLOW clergymen to CAMPAIGN (not preach) from the altar of a church.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 12:03:19 PM by ASHUR »
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

Offline Concerned Assyrian

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2011, 12:33:51 PM »
You go to church, you read the bible, you sing the hymns and you take your biscuit, it ends there. You don't have to attend Jammo's Chaldean promotion party's just because you attend his Church. All this does is raise the issue of Assyrians not being able to differentiate between religion and nation. 

Its not a matter of these Assyrians being unable to differentiate between religion and nation. These people understand the concept very well - that is presicely the reason they have left the church. The issue at hand is that their church leadership is unable to seperate church and state. Jammo is using the church administration and finances in California to create Chaldean political parties, lobby and civic groups. Not to mention holding conferences amongst other things. These people are Assyrians and they must be sick and tired of being demonised and isolated in their own church just because they are Assyrians.

As an aside, its ironic that these people are abandoning the Chaldean Catholic Church after it welcomed an Assyrian bishop (Soro), three Assyrian priests and an Assyrian congregation into its fold. So much for the former bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East uniting the Assyrians and Chaldeans within the Chaldean Catholic Church.
Disunited, dispersed in exile, and as dwindling minorities without full civil rights in their homelands, the Assyrians of today are in grave danger of total assimilation and extinction. In order to survive as a nation, they must now unite under the Assyrian identity of their ancestors. It is the only identity that can help them to transcend the differences between them, speak with one voice again, catch the attention of the world, and regain their place among the nations. Dr Simo Parpola

Offline baklawa

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 03:48:46 PM »
I guess it's too much to ask that people post in the appropriate forum. You'd think after YEARS of discussing this topic one would be able to distinguish between religious topics and the politics forum. Guess not. If we can't keep these issues separate in real life, can we at least do it in this humble little website?

No other comment regarding this issue other than WHO THE F*CK CARES?!  Geez, let people go pray wherever the hell they want. They didn't feel comfortable in one church, left for another where they were still not happy, and have since departed. Perhaps a non-Assyrian church that focuses on their spirituality rather than their political beliefs is the answer for them. If you're happy where you're at, more power to you.
"January 2010, the nail in the coffin, the day Zowaa will die." Hilarious prediction posted by "chaldean."
March 2010: Zowaa wins 3 out of 5 seats in the Iraqi Parliament!

Offline Jones

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2011, 11:30:13 PM »
Seperation of church and state in the Assyrian nation will never be realized as long as we ALLOW clergymen to CAMPAIGN (not preach) from the altar of a church.

 :thumbup:
"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria." Isaiah 19:23-24

"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here." Matthew 12:41

SMILE ASSYRIA; GOD LOVES YOU!!!

Offline davidb

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 12:12:50 AM »
The matter is that Jammo is using the Church as a political tool in his quest for all things Chaldeans. See this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38924859/Chaldean/July24_1102.pdf as it's on the 'About Us' section


If I were Church goer, and was sick of Mar Meelis preaching about "Umta Atureta", I wouldn't start following another congregation. I would ignore whatever he has to say about his nation, and concentrate on the religious part, which I'm sure they still perform very well..

« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 12:18:46 AM by davidb »

Offline davidb

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 12:15:33 AM »
Its not a matter of these Assyrians being unable to differentiate between religion and nation. These people understand the concept very well - that is presicely the reason they have left the church. The issue at hand is that their church leadership is unable to seperate church and state. Jammo is using the church administration and finances in California to create Chaldean political parties, lobby and civic groups. Not to mention holding conferences amongst other things. These people are Assyrians and they must be sick and tired of being demonised and isolated in their own church just because they are Assyrians.

As an aside, its ironic that these people are abandoning the Chaldean Catholic Church after it welcomed an Assyrian bishop (Soro), three Assyrian priests and an Assyrian congregation into its fold. So much for the former bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East uniting the Assyrians and Chaldeans within the Chaldean Catholic Church.

So this isn't in fact about Mar Jammo preaching about his Chaldean nation, it's about him preaching nationalism at the expense of the Church, right? That's two very different things then..

In that case, they're right to leave. If he's sacrificing the Church's money for his own agenda, then the only way to stop him is to stop supporting the Church.

Offline r-johnny

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2011, 12:44:02 PM »
Hi

I was born a cradle Catholic of the Roman Rite.

But, I am going to change to Chaldean Catholic Rite.
Coming from South Africa, I see how people of many different nations worship together, and our races are not a factor when in Church.

It is sad to see a pastor get into nationalistic ways from the pulpit. Also sad to see people from Assyrian area quarrel.

Will this group change their rite?  I feel they should stick to the Eastern Rite, or another Eastern Rite.
They can also report that priest.

I am conscience free to leave the Roman Rite, because I believe, and have discovered much more Truth in the Eastern Rites.  Just makes more sense. And I feel led to do this.

There are several Eastern Rites:
Syriac
Malankarese
Armenian    
Maronite    
Chaldean    
Malabar

Several of these worship in Aramaic or Syriac.

Figure those who are tired of a nationalistic priest could choose another Eastern Catholic Rite.

Others said "Bad move" to go to the Roman Rite. They could complain to the Pope, who should be above national policy preaching by priests.

I am changing from Roman Rite, and I think that shows my sentiment enough.

God loves everyone

R-Johnny


Offline Nina

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »
Those people do not even know who they are :

This is the statement of their mission from their website : Welcome to Assyrian Catholics website!

"Our mission is to unite our people under one pure Catholic family by preserving and strengthening our Catholic faith in a peaceful spiritual environment without any political or nationalistic distractions."

They are contradicting every single word just in those phrases :

1 - They call themselves Assyrian Catholics, yet they say they do not want any political or nationalistic distractions. Hello ... It seems that they forgot Assyrian is a national and not a religious name.

2 - They mention they are Catholics, and this is another wrongful teaching of the Roman Catholic Church when the followers of the Vatican are taught to believe that the word Catholic refers to a faith rather than the real meaning of the word which is a derivative of the Greek word meaning Universal, when the church's faith is Christianity, thus Roman Catholicism becomes a denomination and not a faith.

3 - If those people recognize themselves as Assyrian nationalists then they should go back to the Mother Church, the Church of the East (ACOE) but if they are what we know as Syrian Catholics then that is a different story since the Syrian Catholics do not recognize themselves as Assyrian nationalists but rather as Arabs who belong to the Syrian Catholic denomination.

4 - I do not know if they even know who they are since in one of the pictures they have on their website there is a page of the Gospel which shows the Serto letters used by the western Assyrians (Syrian Orthodox and Syrian Catholics) in their liturgy, which makes me wonder who are they really !
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline Free_Assyria

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2011, 09:49:17 PM »
We Assyrian catholics are awesome.
 :clap: :clap:
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Offline Moneer Cherie

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2011, 09:11:25 AM »
If I were Church goer, and was sick of Mar Meelis preaching about "Umta Atureta", I wouldn't start following another congregation. I would ignore whatever he has to say about his nation, and concentrate on the religious part, which I'm sure they still perform very well..



There is different a between preaching Umta when it is “the truth”, and between preaching Umthanayotha when it is falsified, and that's what they have seen from Jamo! 

Offline Moneer Cherie

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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »
The matter is that Jammo is using the Church as a political tool in his quest for all things Chaldeans. See this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38924859/Chaldean/July24_1102.pdf as it's on the 'About Us' section


Thank you, I downloaded the file, and when I read such materials I always try to keep an open mind and see were it would lead me, I don’t want to think or decide emotionally but logically. I found many disturbing falsifications of historical facts, but will only mention one: this is a quote from his “vision” 

a) The Aramaic linguistic form, used commonly by the Chaldeans up to date, and only by them, was until modern times a spoken but unrecorded dialect, i.e. a grammatical vernacular taught solely by parents to children. While the ancient Assyrian language is the Akkadian dialect of the Nineveh region, which ceased to
exist, the Chaldean, ancient and recent, is not the Akkadian of Babylon that disappeared, but the Aramaic vernacular of Mesopotamia which constitutes the cultural continuity and the vital core of national identity up to our day.”. end of quote


Ok, almost everything you read was false, and the sad part is that almost every chaldean reading his “vision” will think it is true! But all you need to do is, Find out first what dose the “Akkadian dialect of the Nineveh region” sound likes? Then you can decide if it is as he says “ceased to exist” or not?

All he needs to do is get a complete set of the recently completed Assyrian “Akkadian” Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, and he will be able to find out how many Akkadian words are still being spoken by modern Assyrians today.

But I will leave you with this fascinating prediction by the author of this article which was published on the 4th of May 2011…(the original article is larger and I would be happy to e-mail it to any one interested)


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Re: 500 Assyrian Catholics Leave Chaldean Catholic Church
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »

 

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