Author Topic: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?  (Read 4812 times)

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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« on: June 10, 2011, 11:31:00 AM »
Hi everybody!

All is in the title, we call ourselves suroye, some say it means in reality oromoye, others ossuroye and kaldoye. If we are oromoye why call our homeland beth nahrain and not aram for thousands of years, if we are othuroye, why don't call our homeland Athur, Ninwe or something assyrian, same thing with kaldoye.

I mean we are calling ourselves suroye (which means syrian => assyrian) but why beth nahrain? If we are assyrian, why calling our homeland something else than assyria (I mean in aramaic), it's something I cant understand about the aramean/assyrian/chaldean denominations, we call  our ethnicity something and our homeland something else, more general.

If you have an idea, informations, documentations about the subject, please I'm really interested.

Thanks


I am Aramean

I am Assyrian

I am Chaldean

I am Mesopotamian

I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 05:48:56 PM »
Beth Nahrin is the geographical name and Assyria is the political name for our homeland.
And we call our ethnicity/people/nation as Assyrian by sayin Suroye/Suryoye because this means translated Assyrian.
But most are not aware about this fact, because they have no education + noch healthy mentality (all because of the persecution during centuries, and its traces are so deep that it reachs our generation + a few more).
Most think that Suroyo means Christian although mshiHoyo means Christian ... but even in our daily speech we can see that Suroyo means not Christian, e.g. if we visit somebody on Christmas or Easter and than go away, we say: "aloho soyem d ´aidhitun u ´edhathkhun b kol shato b sheyno u Hubo"
... and the answer is traditionally: "kol Suroyo mshiHoyo"
So does that mean "every Christian is a Christian" ??? No!

And Suroyo/Suryoyo does not come from Ossuroyo, it comes from Ashuru ... see here:



2 weeks ago we had a seminar with Prof. Dr. Robert Rollinger in our Assyrian culture club, he´s the man who found the stone tables which confirm that Suroyo means Assyrian, and he spoke about that, too. And he told that already the Assyrians in the Assyrian Empire called Assyria Syria (especially the western part), and everybody knew Syria is Assyria.

So if we speak in our language, we all call ourselves and our language Assyrian by saying Suroyo/Suryoyo and Surayt.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 06:14:05 PM »
Thanks for the reply, maybe I wasnt very clear, I know this relation between suroyo and othuroyo and all the debate and the evolution of the word, even if it was hard to accept it, othuroyo is more close to suroyo than oromoyo :p

My question is more about our homeland, we still call our homeland Beth Nahrain, you answered the question but it's not enough for me. I mean, people demonstrate the relation between syrian and assyrian but nobody speak about the fact that we call our homeland mesopotamia and not assyria, assyria is also a geographical name, so why we dont call it assyria like suroyo and not beth nahroyo? I find it weird and personally I believe it's because we are a big mix of all the people who lived in mesopotamia in antiquity but with a strong assyrian political power and government, maybe I'm wrong but right now, it's the only explanation I have...
I am Aramean

I am Assyrian

I am Chaldean

I am Mesopotamian

I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

Assyrian Voice Forum

Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 06:14:05 PM »

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 08:02:36 PM »
No, Suroyo is not from Othuroyo, it´s from Ashuroyo.
Assyria is no geographical name, it´s political. And we don´t call ourselves as bethnahrinoye because there never were such an identity.
First there were villige and town identities, and when the city states began to expand by reaching their power to other villages, towns, and cities new idenities were born.
And when the city of Ashur reached its power, with its identity, until the natural borders of beth nahrin, also than there was no bethnahrin-identity, but an Ashur-identity.

Prof. Rollinger said on his seminar something which was very interesting: the Assyrian kings wrote how he conquered city by city and that they "made the people to Assyrians".
This is the reason why Assyria was in fact the first nation. It´s identity was not only bordered on different village or city identities, it was united as one whole, like Parpola said.
And there are also several reliefs of citizens, e.g. of Arameans, where we can read how proud the Aramean is to become an Assyrian, so proud that he gives his son an Assyrian name. See 3:20min. (seminar by Assyriologist Mesa Jajan M.A.:

Assyrian History: Culture in Assyria (Mesopotamia) 2/2



As we know, our people used also the name Sur for the land Ashur and the Assyrian Empire existed over 1000 years, over 1000 years they were coined by their Assyrian identity. So it´s no wonder that they still use the name Suroyo and Suryoyo to identify themselves as a people to separate themselves from their neighbors.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 08:06:29 PM by Zawoyo »
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2011, 08:18:05 PM »
Suroyo is not from Othuroyo, it´s from Ashuroyo.
amm..is there actually a difference between ashooraya and atooraya  (just like othoroyo and ashuroyo)  i mean they are all the same!
i asked an oormejnaya dude..and he said its just a matter of changing names nothing more! he said that some people call it that way..the other, the other way!


 :confused: :dry:

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2011, 08:30:18 PM »
amm..is there actually a difference between ashooraya and atooraya  (just like othoroyo and ashuroyo)  i mean they are all the same!

Aturaya and Ashuraya is the same. While Aturaya comes from the Persian language Ashur-aya is a mix between Akkadian and Aramaic, see the drawing above.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2011, 09:24:23 PM »
You're right assyria is not a geographical name lool, my mistake ;)

But it's still weird that we call our homeland beth nahrain, it's like a frecnh guy who call france europe or a swedish who says he's from scandinavia, isnt it weird?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:25:16 PM by AlexSuryoyo »
I am Aramean

I am Assyrian

I am Chaldean

I am Mesopotamian

I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 06:04:17 AM »
No it isn´t, it´s logical :) Because we named our homeland always Beth Nahrin geographically + the Assyrian Empire was fallen and there were no political borders (of Assyria) of Assyrians anymore. But we have also to note that also "Assyria" became a geographically name, as we see on different ancient maps.

The geographical name Beth Nahrin survived because it´s geographically more exact, because it´s statically, and the geographical name "Assyria" is dynamic, becuase Beth Nahrin stays always in Beth Nahrin, it has natural borders, but Assyria was sometimes smaller and somethimes bigger - political borders can be changed, natural borders not.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline Rumtaya

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 08:31:12 AM »
The word Beth Nahrin, can be compared to terms like the Aples, Scandinavia, Amazonas, The Sahara Desert etc. Its like zawoyo says geographical name with a fixed area.

Here is just a map from the Greecian Empire. Where you can see that they use for the former Assyrian Empire, the word Syria (which is not limited to the syria we know today of or the biblical syria)

« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 08:39:14 AM by Rumtaya »

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 08:48:12 AM »
Or an other example is Turabdin. Every Assyrian call this northern part of Beth Nahrin Turabdin, but no Assyrian from Turabdin call himself/herself Turdabdinoyo, they call themselves as their village, e.g. Badboyo, ArkaHoyo, Midyoyo, etc.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 08:59:55 AM »
Or an other example is Turabdin. Every Assyrian call this northern part of Beth Nahrin Turabdin, but no Assyrian from Turabdin call himself/herself Turdabdinoyo, they call themselves as their village, e.g. Badboyo, ArkaHoyo, Midyoyo, etc.

Good example zawoyo, thanks guy, it's a little more clear now even if the original reasons are surely not the same.

I am Aramean

I am Assyrian

I am Chaldean

I am Mesopotamian

I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

Offline Nina

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 10:42:12 PM »
Beth Nahrin is the geographical name and Assyria is the political name for our homeland.
And we call our ethnicity/people/nation as Assyrian by sayin Suroye/Suryoye because this means translated Assyrian.
But most are not aware about this fact, because they have no education + noch healthy mentality (all because of the persecution during centuries, and its traces are so deep that it reachs our generation + a few more).
Most think that Suroyo means Christian although mshiHoyo means Christian ... but even in our daily speech we can see that Suroyo means not Christian, e.g. if we visit somebody on Christmas or Easter and than go away, we say: "aloho soyem d ´aidhitun u ´edhathkhun b kol shato b sheyno u Hubo"
... and the answer is traditionally: "kol Suroyo mshiHoyo"
So does that mean "every Christian is a Christian" ??? No!

And Suroyo/Suryoyo does not come from Ossuroyo, it comes from Ashuru ... see here:



2 weeks ago we had a seminar with Prof. Dr. Robert Rollinger in our Assyrian culture club, he´s the man who found the stone tables which confirm that Suroyo means Assyrian, and he spoke about that, too. And he told that already the Assyrians in the Assyrian Empire called Assyria Syria (especially the western part), and everybody knew Syria is Assyria.

So if we speak in our language, we all call ourselves and our language Assyrian by saying Suroyo/Suryoyo and Surayt.



Is it possible to have a transcript of that lecture ?
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline Nina

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 10:54:01 PM »
Thanks for the reply, maybe I wasnt very clear, I know this relation between suroyo and othuroyo and all the debate and the evolution of the word, even if it was hard to accept it, othuroyo is more close to suroyo than oromoyo :p

My question is more about our homeland, we still call our homeland Beth Nahrain, you answered the question but it's not enough for me. I mean, people demonstrate the relation between syrian and assyrian but nobody speak about the fact that we call our homeland mesopotamia and not assyria, assyria is also a geographical name, so why we dont call it assyria like suroyo and not beth nahroyo? I find it weird and personally I believe it's because we are a big mix of all the people who lived in mesopotamia in antiquity but with a strong assyrian political power and government, maybe I'm wrong but right now, it's the only explanation I have...

I do not know where those guys got their explanation from that the term Beth Nahrain is geographical while Assyria is a political term ! It is very simple as there are some who insist today on calling themselves with names other than the Assyrian national name, the same happened with Beth Nahrian, some who were confused of their origins yet they did not want to admit to their Assyrian roots (like many samples we have today) decided to use a Greek term by turning it into Assyrian Beth Nahrain. This term did not exist until the Hellinists invaded Assyria and the term Mesopotamia was used by the Greeks. The phrase only means the land between two rivers ... How in God's name would the Assyrians call their homeland, the land between two rivers when it had its proper name ASSYRIA. (The explanation given by some people reminds me of the short comings of those so-called Assyrian politicians who want to justify the kurdish Occupation so they use terms trying to assimilate the Assyrians into the kurdish ratholes).

Our Land is called Assyria (Ashur), the Greeks couldn't say Ashur (and that is still true today) so they called us Assur and the term Assyrian was derived from that since the western civilization followed the Greek civilization as an example for them.

There isn't such a thing as a land called Beth Nahrain but there is a land called Ashur (Assyria in English .. Assyrie in French and so on).
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 08:46:29 AM »

Is it possible to have a transcript of that lecture ?


Yes, we have written an article about that lecture:
http://qolo.de/artikel/geschichte/65-guetersloh-bericht-ueber-das-seminar-von-prof-dr-robert-rollinger (it´s in German).
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline Nina

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2011, 10:51:57 PM »
Yes, we have written an article about that lecture:
http://qolo.de/artikel/geschichte/65-guetersloh-bericht-ueber-das-seminar-von-prof-dr-robert-rollinger (it´s in German).


Thanks ... Does not help much to be in German .
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline dok101

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2011, 02:55:36 AM »
Thank you for the link.  Here is the Google translation:

Quote
On Sunday, 29 May 2011, gave Mr. Prof. Dr. Rollinger its "premiere" in the form of a lecture in the circle of Assyrian diaspora community in Gütersloh. At this event, invited the Assyrian Youth Federation Central Europe - Gütersloh (Gütersloh, AJM), funded by the Federal Ministry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth, following a decision of the German Bundestag, one of its guests. The presentation took place on the premises of the Assyrian Mesopotamia eV in Gütersloh.

Robert Rollinger is a renowned professor who is among the masters of the discipline of the old history and Ancient Near Eastern Studies. He is also the Director of these areas at the University of Innsbruck.

150 guests gathered on Sunday afternoon in the way the culture of the Assyrians, which was so crowded, so that some listeners found on tables provide seating or even standing completely enjoyed the lecture.

Robert Rollinger began with the theme of the city of Ashur, which has a definite historical age of over 5,000 years, which can be dated archaeologically. It is worth noting that that the proper name of the inhabitants of Assyria to God's own city-based, which is now regarded as a unique phenomenon in the world. This god is well known as "single" God, which is based on the start of the first mono-theistic religious ö suggests sen direction. Thus were in Assyria, and later in the Assyrian empire, the roots of monotheism religion well ahead of the spread of the Jewish and later Christian subsequent belief in one God.

Then he showed the form of maps as developed by the city of Ashur an urban city, due to expansion in all four directions. From the 19 Century BC the Assyrian empire began to steadily develop and grow, ultimately to the Neo-Assyrian empire in the world stage. Especially in the period from 9 to 6 Century will affect the entire East by the Assyrians strong. Here the king Tiglath is particularly striking, embodying the idea of ​​the first nation-state idea, while in his Annals, states that he has all the inhabitants of his kingdom "assyrisiert", ie made to Assyrians. Here it is possible to impose the regents all residents with a common identity, culture, religion and language.

From 9 Century to refer to the Assyrian correspondence, instead of using the cumbersome cuneiform, with over 600 characters, a new simplified alphabet with only 22 characters, which will henceforth be modified for high-Assyrian language, adapted from the west of the empire. Aramaic became the "lingua franca" of the Assyrian realm. King Sennacherib has already spoken in the new variant of the Assyrian.

Prof. Rollinger later in the issue of the term Syria has responded. The response was recorded using the bilingual Tontafelfunde from Cineköy, southeast Turkey, which were written in Phoenician and Luwian and Syria show the origin of the word of Assyria. Both variants were each used interchangeably. The same applies for the designation of the Assyrians, who had a synonymous use of "asurai" and "Surai" on the tablets.

Mr. Rollinger, then went on to take one issue, in which he will award to the reputation of the Assyrians. The stigma attached to the Assyrians, who were considered particularly "warlike" or "cruel", was given to them by the western research, coupled with the additional focus on the Old Testament, but this was by Prof. Rollinger own perspective. But this has become known only because of the Assyrian war propaganda, in terms of some kind of special psychological warfare to stifle revolts in the empire from the outset in the bud. He pointed out that other peoples were no less cruel, but it is not documented, as did the Assyrians.

Robert Rollinger award came at the end on the symbolism of the Assyrians, who have found a new role in the Christian faith, such as the winged bull "Lamassu" has been transformed in its Christian meaning to the angels.

The Assyrian Youth Federation Central Europe - Gütersloh is very grateful to Prof. Robert Rollinger the historical scientific information and is pleased to welcome you again at the next event should be a full house.

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2011, 06:26:59 AM »
Thanks ... Does not help much to be in German .

But it does help much for Assyrians in Central Europe, because there isn´t much of this kind of literature in German. It´s mostly in English.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline the_dave

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2011, 06:48:31 AM »
Beth Nahren means the lands (home) between/of the rivers, aka Mesopotamia...

I never call our lands (state) anything else than Assyria, Ator, Assur, Ashor, (or occupied Assyria) because that was the last and true empire of our peoples.

However if someone who does not speak our language asks me where Assyria was, I reply; in Mesopotamia (beth nahren). Almost everybody knows where that is...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 06:55:44 AM by the_dave »
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Offline Nina

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2011, 11:24:46 PM »
But it does help much for Assyrians in Central Europe, because there isn´t much of this kind of literature in German. It´s mostly in English.

True, but there are many who read and write English very well, so they should put their skills into translating and spreading Assyrian Awareness and not just wait until there is an article or a lecture in German, Swedish, or any other language spoken in Europe.
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 07:36:58 AM »
True, but there are many who read and write English very well, so they should put their skills into translating and spreading Assyrian Awareness and not just wait until there is an article or a lecture in German, Swedish, or any other language spoken in Europe.

1. Mostly our youth can speak English, but most of them forget what they learnt in the English lessons when they finish the school.
2. And these who don´t forget how to speak English are often not interested in the case of our people, and this low interest does not bring them to translate such kind of literature.
3. Most of our people in Europe don´t call themselves Assyrians. Although most are not against our people who consider themselves as Assyrians, the fact that they don´t call themselves Assyrians is an other factor which hold them a little bit more back to translate such things.
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline Senharib

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »
Hi everybody!

All is in the title, we call ourselves suroye, some say it means in reality oromoye, others ossuroye and kaldoye. If we are oromoye why call our homeland beth nahrain and not aram for thousands of years, if we are othuroye, why don't call our homeland Athur, Ninwe or something assyrian, same thing with kaldoye.

I mean we are calling ourselves suroye (which means syrian => assyrian) but why beth nahrain? If we are assyrian, why calling our homeland something else than assyria (I mean in aramaic), it's something I cant understand about the aramean/assyrian/chaldean denominations, we call  our ethnicity something and our homeland something else, more general.

If you have an idea, informations, documentations about the subject, please I'm really interested.

Thanks

Dude, change your avatar ffs!

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean, ok but why Beth Nahrain?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2011, 12:33:42 PM »
Dude, change your avatar ffs!

Dude I don't see why...

I am very proud of this avatar and this team whether you like it or not just like I am proud of assyriska.

And it has nothing to do with the topic  :ban:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 12:34:46 PM by AlexSuryoyo »
I am Aramean

I am Assyrian

I am Chaldean

I am Mesopotamian

I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

 

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