Author Topic: Crusade against the Assyrian name  (Read 42266 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Crusade against the Assyrian name
« on: August 13, 2008, 10:22:15 PM »
Wow Wow And Wow best article i have read for a while finally i now understand how and who started Arameanism amazing just amazing.



source: http://www.christiansofiraq.com/joseph/reply2.html



Assyrian Heritage of the Syrian Orthodox Church


Syriac and other historical documents attest to the Assyrian heritage of the Syrian Orthodox Church as well.


The Chaldean Bishop Addai Scher writes according to the Syrian Orthodox Church Patriarch Michael the Great (1126-99) the Greeks were offending the Jacobites in the first half of the 9th century by saying:


    'Your Syrian sect has no importance neither honor, and you did never have a kingdom, neither an honorable king'. The Jacobites answered by saying that even if their name is "Syrian", but they are originally 'Assyrians' "and they have had many honorable kings." This is in line with the contemporary Assyrian claim that the terms Syrian, Suryoye applied to them mean Assyrian.      He furthere wrote: "..Syria is in the west of Euphrates, and its inhabitants who are talking our Aramaic language, and who are so-called 'Syrians', are only a part of the 'all', while the other part which was in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay. (39)  The Greeks evidently directed their comments to the Jacobites of Syria therefore Michael difrentiates between them and those who lived east of Euphrates, he adds:
    " Assyrians, who were called 'Syrians' by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean 'Assyrians' from 'Assure' who built the city of Nineveh". (40) This concurs with his contemporary Gewargis Arbilaya's [from Arbil] and others before and after him who have identified their people as Assyrians and Babylonians.


      During Mor Michael's life time, between 1160 and 1170 John of Wurzburg who visited Jerusalem refers to the Syriac speaking christians of the city as Assyrians. There were both Nestorians and Jacobite communities among others in that city. He writes:


 "For the Assyrians [ local Syrian Christians] whose fathers were the settlers of that country from the first persecution, say that after Our Lord's Passion the city was seven time captured and destroyed, together with all the churches, but not wholly leveled to the ground." (41)

 

      Later documents continue to identify the Syrian Orthodox Church and its members as Assyrian before the 19th century. When Mehemt II organized the Millet system he appointed the Patriarch of the Armenian as the head of Millet. He was also given authority over other Christian communities such "as the Gypsies ...the Assyrians, the Monophysites of Syria and Egypt, and the Bogomils of Bosnia, ....". Later each of these communities were recognized as Millet independently of the Armenians. (42)
 

      When Horatio Southgate visited the Syrian Orthodox communities of Turkey in 1843 he reported that its followers were calling themselves Assyrians in the form of "Suryoye Othoroye". He writes: 
" I began to make inquiries for the Syrians. The people informed me that there were about one hundred families of them in the town of Kharpout, and a village inhabited by them on the plain. I observed that the Armenians did not know them under the name which I used, SYRIANI; but called them ASSOURI, which struck me the more at the moment from its resemblance to our English name ASSYRIANS, from whom they claim their origin, being sons, as they say, of Assour, (Asshur,) who 'out of the land of Shinar went forth, and build Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, and Resin between Nineveh and Calah; the same is a great city..(43)
 

      Anglican Bishop Oswald H. Perry who visited the Syrian Orthodox community at the invitation of Patriarch Mar Ignatius Peter III in a book published in 1895 titled, "six Months in a Syrian Monastery writes the term Syrian is being used interchangeably with the 'Assyrian' by the members of the Jacobite church. After the massacres of 1895-6 large number of the Assyrians of Turkey migrated to the United State where they established churches and institutions such as. The "Assyrian Benefit Association" founded in 1897 by Dr. Dr. Abraham K. Yoosuf in Worcester. and "the Assyrian National School Association of America" later called "The Assyrian Orphanage and School Association of America." (44)

"According to the French consul, the notorious sheikh of Zeilan, responsible for mass incitement at Sassun in 1894, had taken part in the plans for the massacre. During the onslaughts, about 500-700 Armenians and Assyrians took refuge in the French consulate which was 'practically besieged'." (45)


      When Metropolitan Mutran Aprim Barsum went to the Paris peace conference in 1920 to plead the case of the Syrian Orthodox his petition identified members of his church as Assyrians.



The Assryian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference from Left to right: Captain A.K. Yousuf, Secratary of Mor Barsum, Joel Warda. Mar Barsum Siting at the center

The text of Mor Barsum's petition dated Feb. 1920 reads:


 "We have the honor of bringing before the Peace Conference the information that H.B. the Syrian Patriarch of Antioch has entrusted me with the task of laying before the Conference the suffering and the wishes of our ancient Assyrian nation who reside mostly in the upper valleys of Tigris and Euphrates in Mesopotamia..." (46)



Some Members of the Orthodox Church on the main street of the city of Worcester in 1922. Captain A.K. Yousuf M.D. in front . The sign behind them reads "Sons of Assyria."

According to a 1927 issue of the Worcester Telegram and Gazette Mor Aprim Barsum who had become the Patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church continued proudly to identify his people as Assyrians.


 "His Eminence has given lectures on the psychology of the Assyrian people in the United States. His mission has been to create an understanding of the Assyrian people by Americans, because most of them, although well-educated in Assyria have been forced by a changed atmosphere into menial occupations." (47)



      The article also mentions the participation of Aprim Barsum in the 1919 conference held in Paris:


 "During the peace conference he appeared to demand indemnity for the Assyrian churches sacked during the World War, and on this occasion was presented with a gold-headed cane by President Doumergue of France. He is also a familiar figure in the educational centers of Europe such as Oxford, Paris and Vienna." (48)



The Syriac text on this church in turabedin reads it was restored "on the days of
Pariarch Afrem I (Barsoum) the Assyrian and the Bishop Afrem of Turabdin...."




Changing Ethnicity for the sake of religious politics

      After identifying himself and his people as Assyrians for most of his life Mor Aprim Barsum issued a decree in to revise the ethnicity of his followers to Arameans. The sealed document of the Patriarch is dated December 2, 1952. It was written in Syriac and Arabic and later published together with an English translation by Archdiocese of the Syrian Church of Antioch under the title: "The Syrian Church of Antioch, in Name and History." His decision was perhaps influenced by the fact that the seat of the Patriarch along with most of his followers were driven out of Turkey in 1924 and resided in Syria where the native Christians who made up a majority of his church members did not want to be known as Assyrians.
       Aprim's book was clearly intended to give a new identity to his followers. If as he and others have suggested Suryoyo meant Aramean it would have been a common knowledge, therefore there would not have been a need to write a book about it.



The Syrian Church of Antioch in Name and History

      Aprim Barsum justified his drastic change of mind by stating that church in India and homeland [Middle East] is known as "Syrian Orthodox" therefore the use of the Assyrian in the diaspora creates ambiguity about the church and its unity." He further claimed that "The name Assyrian came to be used in English for the Church of the East during the nineteenth century" through the efforts of Anglican Missionaries. (49) This argument was intended to appeal to the religious prejudices of his followers who were willing to reject their Assyrian identity lest they be confused with the hated Nestorians. In reality as shown previously the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Church of the East long before the arrival of the Anglican missionaries had identified themselves as Assyrians. 
 
  Barsum further maintained historically it would be incorrect to use the title Assyrian for the Church since it has been known as "Syrian". However since this title was used by the Rum Orthodox (Antiochian) Church in North America to avoid confusion he recommended the name Aramaic to be used instead of the Syriac language and the term Aramaean to refer to the Church.(50) Ironically on the cover of his book the name of its language was identified as suryoyo or Syriac. The use of Aramaic and Aramean instead of Assyrian dictated by Aprim was not based on historical truth but was intended to stop his followers from identifying themselves as they had done before-the name change was simply motivated by religious politics.

      Since 1952 all references to the church and its members as Assyrians have been expunged but some evidences of its former use have survived. In a letter to the editor of the Syrian Orthodox magazine Beth-Nahreen dated 6th of June 1947 Athanasius Yeshue Samuel, Basum's Metropolitan of Jerusalem at Saint Mark's Convent, wrote: "May the Almighty confer upon you, your staff, the readers of the issue and the Assyrian community all over the world his blessings and benedictions and crown your efforts with success." A picture taken from the Saint Mark's Convent in Jerusalem shows that its name plate in English originally was 'Assyrian convent' later the first A and the s were painted over to make it read 'Syrian Convent' but the Jewish script above it still reads Ashurim or Assyrian. When Mor Athanasius Yeshue Samuel arrived in the United States his title on his letterhead was 'Assyrian Orthodox Archbishop to the United States and Canada'. In a letter dated August 12, 1952  to the Parishioners he wrote: "I shall need the cooperation of every Assyrian who has the love of his church and nation at heart."








Saint Mark Convent In Jerusalem  before the name change



Same place after the name change

Since then the clergies of that church have carried out a cruel crusade of ethnic cleansing toward their members who dare to identify themselves as Assyrians. The late Frank Chavor up to his death vividly remembered how members of his church fought attempts to remove the name Assyrian from their church in Harport Connecticut but were locked out by the court order obtained by the Archdiocese to drive them out.


      Reasons which led Aprim Barsum to adopt his anti Assyrian policy included the close relationships evolving between Assyrians of the Syrian Orthodox Church and members of the Church of the East. In 1933 in response to the Semail massacres of the Assyrians in Iraq the Assyrian National Federation in the United States was jointly established by members of both denominations. It must have come as a shock to Aprim Barsum when David Perley an influential member of his church defined Assyrian nationalism as follows: 
"Such is the revolt of the new generation that has united us all, against the narrow provincialism of the past regardless of creed, under the banner of our Ethnarch, Mar Eshai Shimun XXI, [the Patriarch of the Church of the East] our hero, both spiritual and secular, in our struggle for survival. Over a period of about a decade, the spirit of the political activities of this youth of seven-and-twenty who commenced his career in the field of battle has been characterized by a sane desire to establish a homeland where liberty might reign supreme." (51) 
This was published in Yosuf Malik's 'British Betrayal of the Assyrians' who was a member of the Chaldean church but considered himself and his people as Assyrians.



A 1964 book by Jibrail Iydin published in Turkey attests to the Assyrian Heritage of the Suryoye and Suryaye of Mesopotamia. the Title is: "History of the Suryoyto Kingdom." courtesy of www.bethsuryoyo.com

Directors of the Assyrian National Federation including members of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the United States arranged for the Patriarch Eishay Shimun to Present the "Assyrian National Petition" to the "World Security Conference" at San Francisco on May 7, 1945. Cooperation between members of the three denominations were unraveling centuries of segregationist practices by the Syriac speaking churches dedicated to keeping their flocks as far away from each other as possible therefore something had to be done to stop it. On May 12, 1952, His Holiness Patriarch Ephrem I Barsoum appointed Archbishop Mor Athanasius Yeshue Samuel as Patriarchal Vicar over the United States and Canada.Despite protest by the members of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the United States archbishop Mor Athanasius began the removal of the Assyrian name from all but two churches in the United States. Members who objected were locked out excommunicated and driven out.

      Parishioners of the Church of the Virgin Mary in Worcester, Massachusetts and the Paramus of New Jersey refused to comply with the identity change. They succeeded in keeping the Assyrian name 'by registering their parishes independent of the main church under a trustee group'. Archbishop Mor Cyril Aprim Karim later succeed in removing the term Assyrian from the Virgin Mary church in Worcester, but in Paramus the Assyrian identity of the church still prevails. This is a classical example of a house at war against itself divided into insignificance by its clergies.
 

      Aprim Basum's anti Assyrian policies succeeded in stopping a trend which would have united the Syriac speaking people under a common name but instead the term Aramean was introduced to promote divisiveness. Factions of the Syrian Orthodox Church in Europe, the United States and the Middle East still proudly proclaim their Assyrian heritage while the rest insist that they are Arameans because their patriarch Aprim Barsum told them.

      The change of name from "Assyrian Orthodox Church" to "Syrian Orthodox church" led to a dispute with the Rum Orthodox Church in North America. The matter was resolved by court litigation which awarded the right to use the name to Aprim Barsum's denomination. (52)

      During the United States census of 2000 to prevent the possibility of counting members of the Syrian Orthodox Church as Assyrians the US Archbishops Cyril Aprim Karim and Clemis Eugene Kaplan issued a declaration to change the name of the Church to "Syriac Orthodox Church" and refer to its members as Syriacs.(53) Since then the name Syriacs has been used sided by side with Aramean to drive members of the church further away from their Assyrian identity.




Syriac in this context means nothing more than a religious denomination and has nothing to do with national identity . This term previously pertained to the language spoken by the christians of Mesopotamia and Syria, and does not necessarily means Aramean. The fact that Syriac is often used side by side with Aramean by those wishing to distance themselves from their Assyrian heritage means the two names are not synonymous and neither one of them adequately explains the identity of the "Syrian Orthodox Church" or its members. Identifying our people by the language they speak rather than their national and historical heritage is akin to forcing the European people to identify themselves as Latin rather than their respective nationality.

      To justify their new Aramean identity members of the Syrian Orthodox Church who identify themselves as such contend that the terms 'Syrian, Suraya and Suryoyo mean Aramean because in the third century B.C. when the Greeks translated the Old Testament they substituted Syrian for any mention of the Arameans. The fallacy of this logic is that the term Syrian was in use before the 5th century B.C. and according to Herodotus, Strabo and Justinus and other Roman and Greek historians meant Assyrian. Furthermore the inhabitants of Mesopotamia did not speak the Greek language when they became Christians therefore it would not have mattered what the Greeks called the Arameans, and would not have influenced them in one way or another. By the third century B.C. the population of Abar-nahra west of Euphrates consisted of not only the Arameans also of Greeks, Romans, Canaanites, Arabs, and Assyrians. The 12 century patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox 'Michael the Great' acknowledges that both Arameans and Assyrians were known as Syrian Suryaye and Suryoye but he clearly distinguishes between the two by writing those who lived "in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay." In other words the homeland of the Arameans was considered West of Euphrates even at his time. He further wrote:  " Assyrians, who were called 'Syrians' by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean 'Assyrians' from 'Assure' who built the city of Nineveh". (See 40)


    John Joseph has also attempted to confuse the identity of the contemporary Assyrians by stating that Asore or Asuri used by the Armenians, Georgians and Russians for the Christian Assyrians long before the 19the century means Syrian, not Assyrian. According to him the correct Armenian name for Assyrians is "Asorestantji" and cites the 1884 Anorayre De Byzance Dictionary as evidence. We have already seen that Syrian was used historically as substitute for Assyrian. Armenian Asore or Persian Asuri are composed of 'Asor' or 'Asur' meaning Assyria plus an ending possessive pronoun to make them Assyrian. In fact if the Armenian Asore means Syrian it validates all the other assertions that Syrian is another form for Assyrian when applied to the christians of Mesopotamia. In the classical Armenian literature such as the fifteenth century version of the 'Wisdom of Khakar ' (Ahikar) ancient Assyrians are called "Asores" and Assyria is Asorestan. This is compatible with the Indo-European formula for nations and their country.  For example Afghani are the people of Afghanistan, Hindi are the people of Hidustan, Armani are the people of Armanistan and so-forth. One has also to wonder; if 'Asor' in "Asorestantji" means Assyria why it would not in "Asore".

Another derivative from Asuri is the Persian term Surian which is short for Asurian and means Assyrians. It was used by the Arabs after their 7th century invasion as "al-Suryaniyyun" which it means Assyrian as acknowledged by the tenth century translator of the "Latin history of Paulus Orosius" (cr. 961-976 AD), where it is equated with the Latin "Assyri" [Assyrian].(54)
 

      Despite all attempts by the Syrian Orthodox Church to distance itself from its Assyrian heritage, its Assyrian legacy is still alive in Turkey. Articles about Christians in that country written by Turks still refer to members of the church as Assyrians. On one internet site under the title: "Mardin and Surrounding Areas; Assyrian Monasteries." after praising the Assyrian stone masons for having built magnificent buildings in Mardin it continues:


"Perhaps even more striking than Mardin itself are the Assyrian
monasteries that dot the landscape around it. The Assyrians consider
themselves the real deal, the original Christians who still speak the
ancient Aramaic language Jesus spoke." (55)

      As if unaware of facts mentioned in this and other articles Joseph ends his commentary by writing:    "I seriously believe that the single most important problem facing our Assyrian community and the reasons for our disunity stem from the fact that nobody takes us seriously on the question of our identity--not our friends, not our enemies. Actually, they all seem to know our history better than we do, be they Kurds or Arabs, the Syrian Orthodox or the Chaldeans , the Iraqi [political] parties or the scholars at Oxford, Harvard, Yale or Chicago, or the U.S. Census Bureau in Washington D.C., let alone the Department of State there..."

      It is astonishing for Joseph to state that all the above "know our history better than we do". This is typical Joseph's lack of understanding of reality. The confusion of our identity has been invented by religious rivalries and not historical facts. The Chaldean church, the Syrian Orthodox church, the Church of the East and their followers have spent centuries attacking and disowning each other for theological reasons. Their clergies have found it advantageous to divide, separate, and segregate their followers from the other two. Any unity of our people based on ethnicity is considered as a threat to their denominational interest therefore they come up with artificial ethnic identities for their parishioners to keep them segregated.
 

      When a new church was established in 1553 it was called Chaldean by the Roman Church a name which is now being used as an ethnic identity by its clergies and members. Starting at 1952 Syrian Orthodox Church leaders for religious reasons decided to call their church and members Aramean. Joseph has further contributed to such confusions in his three book, various articles, and lectures to students and public by misrepresenting the historical facts. Given such reality his claim that "Kurds or Arabs, the Syrian Orthodox or the Chaldeans , the Iraqi [political] parties or the scholars at Oxford, Harvard, Yale or Chicago, or the U.S. Census Bureau in Washington D.C. know our history better than we do." sounds preposterous.
 

      The United States government and the new Iraqi government had recognized our people collectively as Assyrians until the Chaldean clergies bombarded them with letters claiming that members of their church are not Assyrians. The name change game played by the clergies of the Syriac Orthodox church have divided members of the same families between various ethnic identities. How is it possible for one brother to be Assyrian, the other Aramean and the third Syriac. These are the result of silly games our clergies have played with our identity.
 

      While the rest of the world fully understands the magical power of unity and working in harmony our religious leaders have spent centuries in conflict over theological controversies and have divided our people into hostile factions each claiming to belong to a different nationality. Each denomination still clings to its exclusive medieval religious domain complete with dynasties of priests, bishops and patriarchs ready to wage holy wars against others at a moment's notice.
 

      After reading a Syrian Orthodox Church bulletin in 1965 which blamed the Nestorians of the Persian empire for having delivered a severe blow to the ancient church in 480 AD David Perley wrote: 
"Imagine this statement is made by a presumptivly spiritual leader in the Age of Ecumenicity, when brotherhood of all men, of every faith, is the guiding star! Which do you think is more important now-the future of the Faith of our fathers, and our continued collective existence, or memories of the dastardly days of Ephesus or Chalcedon, when word-splitting definitions of obscure points of doctrine led men to do battle against their brothers as the 'enemies of God'? In my opinion the Assyrians are too enlightened to be led back to those days!"

      Centuries of religious conflicts have prevented our people from forming a none sectarian leadership to look after their common interest and guide them wisely during the crucial times. Today they are in danger of being driven out of their homeland in Iraq. Tens of thousands have already fled to Jordan, Syria and more to follow. Others are being kidnaped and killed. The Kurds are busy confiscating Christian villages and are happy to incite the Chaldeans against the Assyrians and help members of the Syrian Orthodox Church to reject their Assyrian heritage. There is no consultation or cooperation between our denominations to agree on how to help our unfortunate people. The only help they are willing and able to provide is to ask for prayers probably just for their own members.

**************



"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline GGBW

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Gender: Female
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 10:41:40 PM »
"Parishioners of the Church of the Virgin Mary in Worcester, Massachusetts and the Paramus of New Jersey refused to comply with the identity change. They succeeded in keeping the Assyrian name 'by registering their parishes independent of the main church under a trustee group'. Archbishop Mor Cyril Aprim Karim later succeed in removing the term Assyrian from the Virgin Mary church in Worcester, but in Paramus the Assyrian identity of the church still prevails. This is a classical example of a house at war against itself divided into insignificance by its clergies."


Ooooooooooooooh.....that's how they did it!  I always wondered how they kept the name Assyrian on that church. 

Excellent article.

Print it out and pass it around at Assyriska and "Oromoye" and "Chaldan" events.  But not to anyone over the age of 25.  :)

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 11:22:07 PM »
i love this article i finally see how they did it.
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Assyrian Voice Forum

Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 11:22:07 PM »

Offline shlamalokhoon

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Gender: Female
  • SHOOOOSHLA!
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 02:09:57 AM »
I love this!!! :wavetowel:

Me and my dad would always sit and discuss this, and he would say the exact same thing that was written here, but everytime i would try to explain it to someone else, i would mix it all up and sound like i didnt know what i was talking about :blushinggg:

Now i can just send this link :)


Many thanks
“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

- Jesus

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 02:12:42 AM »
yeah same here 1 year ago I came across this Aramean name I never knew anything about it and it was weird looking at someone speaking my language and saying they were not Assyrian. For a whole year I was looking for answers and finally this article in plain back and white explains how it happened.
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 02:18:01 AM »
I don't know if i missed it, but does it explain why "Aramean"?

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 02:19:59 AM »
I don't know if i missed it, but does it explain why "Aramean"?

yes its in there. but thats not really important. The how and why is much better.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 02:20:57 AM by Assyrianism »
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 02:21:56 AM »
yes its in there. but thats not really important. The how and why is much better.

eka?

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 02:36:41 AM »
That doesn't explain why the name 'Aramean' though?

Why did Suryoyo mean Aramean?

Offline GGBW

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7197
  • Gender: Female
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 02:37:31 AM »
Because of the language, Aramaic.  This is what they still say.

Offline Forever Assyrian

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 09:31:54 AM »
That doesn't explain why the name 'Aramean' though?

Why did Suryoyo mean Aramean?

"To justify their new Aramean identity members of the Syrian Orthodox Church who identify themselves as such contend that the terms 'Syrian, Suraya and Suryoyo mean Aramean because in the third century B.C. when the Greeks translated the Old Testament they substituted Syrian for any mention of the Arameans."
Imith dithe, o qadishto

Offline GodismyJudge

  • Super Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11851
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 07:42:24 PM »
Great article. Thank you for sharing!!
I am an Assyrian today, tomorrow, forever, and I am proud of it.

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 01:40:29 AM »
sure is, i can now understand why ACOE is so pro Assyrian. And why Mar dinkha put Assyrian on our church name. While the two other churches were engaged in Anti-Assyrianism our church was doing the exact opposite.In ACOE's defensive i know they get invovled in politics but why is it always nestorians that are criticizing their church leaders i have not yet seen memebers of the Chaldean and Syriac Churches criticize their church leaders for dragging them away from their true identity.


 
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline Had

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 232
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 03:31:28 AM »
sure is, i can now understand why ACOE is so pro Assyrian. And why Mar dinkha put Assyrian on our church name. While the two other churches were engaged in Anti-Assyrianism our church was doing the exact opposite.In ACOE's defensive i know they get invovled in politics but why is it always nestorians that are criticizing their church leaders i have not yet seen memebers of the Chaldean and Syriac Churches criticize their church leaders for dragging them away from their true identity.


 

For many (esp. former) ACOE members, identity comes before church alliance.  For the other two churches, I would say that for the great majority church allegiance is more important than identity.  Actually church defines identity (or lack of identity).  That's why you see a difference.

Sorry if you knew the answer and were just asking rhetorically!

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 08:29:05 AM »
For many (esp. former) ACOE members, identity comes before church alliance.  For the other two churches, I would say that for the great majority church allegiance is more important than identity.  Actually church defines identity (or lack of identity).  That's why you see a difference.

Sorry if you knew the answer and were just asking rhetorically!

Sorry Had i respectfully disagree that's if i misunderstood your post.
members of the Chaldean catholic church think their ethnicity is chaldean and members of the Syriac orthodox church think their ethnicity is Aramean (Syriac) yes there are some within these churches who know and say they are Assyrian but the majority of them don't because of their organizations that keep them from the truth. Also nestorians (ACOE) not all of their allegiance is to their identity 1st.
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 11:33:48 AM »
what does majority mean? beacue 6 of 10 persons say this, its not said that the 4 of this 10 dont have a voice. the syriac orthodox church members,which life the assyriansm, do a lot for they people. its in the chaldean church the same. but not at the ACOE. sorry if i say it, but there the assyrian name get into a bad word. i love every of my churches, but it was a big mistake that the ACOE take the name ASSYRIAN in their churchname. they disagree with this action, with the assyriansm pro arguments "the ASSYRIAN name is the only name in our people, which unite the people from every church".
from this time where they take assyrian in the church name, for the most people which dont understand assyriansm the name assyrian is like chalden or syriac. Assyrian = only the Members of the ACOE. And this is not good! its bad, very bad, because this point have more than 50% trueness. if every of our churches take the name assyrian in the church name, than it is good, but the ACOE take the assyrian name from his place, as the name for the people.

see today how hard it is to explain more than 50% of the ACOE members that their are more assyrians as only in the ACOE. and the S.O. and C.C. members that they can be Assyrian if they are still members in their churches.

its a big problem which the ACOE take with this in our people..

shlome
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 12:15:56 PM »
not assyrian..


it is true that before the ACOE take the name assyrian, another groups started.
but i give you another example from the aramean - assyrian problem in germany:

Here the bischop cicek said "we dont want the assyrian name, they only want to make us to their church!" do you understand the problem?

the aramean movement in europe started in 70-80's..
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 03:57:59 AM »
The Problem in the ACOE is as big as the one in the Syriac & Chaldean Churches, after all, we are the same people. :)

I would think 80% of ACOE Assyrians who were raised in Iraq don't consider Chaldean's and Syriac's as Assyrians, this is passed on to younger generations, hence "Chaldeanism & Arameanism"


Offline Had

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 232
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 06:16:31 AM »
Sorry Had i respectfully disagree that's if i misunderstood your post.
members of the Chaldean catholic church think their ethnicity is chaldean and members of the Syriac orthodox church think their ethnicity is Aramean (Syriac) yes there are some within these churches who know and say they are Assyrian but the majority of them don't because of their organizations that keep them from the truth. Also nestorians (ACOE) not all of their allegiance is to their identity 1st.

For the first point we actually agree.  You misunderstood me there.

For nestorians, had their allegiance been to their church not identity, you would have seen them try to convert other church goers to join the ACOE, which they didn't.  In fact many nestorians (even from well known large tribes like Baz and Tkhuma) joined the Catholic church for example in the Ottoman empire and Iraq, but kept their identity.  You almost never saw a Chaldean or Syriac convert to the ACOE.  They (ACOE) try to 'Assyrianize', but never to 'Nestorianize'.  That has to tell you which is the priority, church or nation.

What I'm saying sounds biased I realize that, but yes I do believe this is reality on the ground, Nestorians (majority) prioritize identity, while Chaldeans/Arameans (majority) prioritize religion=identity in contrast, and to them 'nationhood' is not as important, unlike Assyrians.  And this is part of the confusion, and why this 'unity' attempted by Assyrians for the past century has not been successful (different priorities). 


« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 06:25:48 AM by Had »

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2008, 07:27:30 AM »


I would think 80% of ACOE Assyrians who were raised in Iraq don't consider Chaldean's and Syriac's as Assyrians



And why do you think that is?
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2008, 07:53:08 AM »
I don't know, i'v never been to Iraq.

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2008, 12:03:31 PM »
and who were the 50 000 ASSYRIANs at the new year parade in nohadra? ACOE members?
And why does in europe only westassyrians work for assyrinsm, and eastassyrians dont accept the members of the other churches not as assyrians?

from this time where the COE take the name Assyrian, its nothing more than chaldeanism and syriacnsm. only the old thinking of assyrinsm still exicst, but its like you say syrian and syriac, you don't really now the difference if you didnt read thousands of books about this people...

yes, the ACOE had to take the assyrian name in the church name, but only together with the other churche. does this A make them more real assyrians? chaldean and aramean history is a part of us as assyrian history,what does it bring us to deny this? yes, 3 or more people, east, west, chaldean, syriac, aramean, assyrian...  :blink:
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 07:41:57 AM »
aramean, chaldean, babylonian, assyrian, akkadian, sumerian history is our history! every part is a part of us! the nationality is assyrian, as the assyriansm said. and dont forget, the ASSYRIANSM didnt start in the COE!

and if you think the COE members are holy and have the best thinking, than go to the khabour places in syria and tell me what the majority of them thinking. im curious what you will see.

some parts deny the other parts, some parts deny the other nationality-history, and some party didnt accept us as one people.

But at this time where the ACOE put the name in their church name, they didnt nothing good for our nation and unity. they gave this people who split our people in syriac/aramean, chaldean and assyrian/nestorian right, because it didnt show anything more!

they take the assyrian name from his high place as nationality to a confession name, like chaldean and jakobite/syriac and nestorian are. and think about, syriac is nothing more than assyrian, the same word. but with syriac you can only assosiate the western part of our people.

im behind the assyriansm and for me the name is still on the high place. but the ACOE gave the others arguments to see it that it isnt so!

think about.

shlome
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 07:53:54 AM »
aramean, chaldean, babylonian, assyrian, akkadian, sumerian history is our history! every part is a part of us! the nationality is assyrian, as the assyriansm said. and dont forget, the ASSYRIANSM didnt start in the COE!

and if you think the COE members are holy and have the best thinking, than go to the khabour places in syria and tell me what the majority of them thinking. im curious what you will see.

some parts deny the other parts, some parts deny the other nationality-history, and some party didnt accept us as one people.

But at this time where the ACOE put the name in their church name, they didnt nothing good for our nation and unity. they gave this people who split our people in syriac/aramean, chaldean and assyrian/nestorian right, because it didnt show anything more!

they take the assyrian name from his high place as nationality to a confession name, like chaldean and jakobite/syriac and nestorian are. and think about, syriac is nothing more than assyrian, the same word. but with syriac you can only assosiate the western part of our people.

im behind the assyriansm and for me the name is still on the high place. but the ACOE gave the others arguments to see it that it isnt so!

think about.

shlome

So now we have to acknowledge every little part of our history?

Syriac is not the same as Assyrian, Syriac is an artificial name created by the Greeks, and nowadays only a religious designation for the Jacobite Orthodox, while Assyrian is our ethnic name, an ancient name that dates back 3000+ years. 

What is this? Aramean/Syriac propaganda

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 10:15:06 AM »
http://aina.org/jsp/articles/assyrianidentity.pdf


so 6000 years our people speak english and say to our people Assyrian?  :blink:
Syrian/-c and Assyrian are the same words!
Our history, and the fathers of the assyriansm teached it too, included aramean history too!
and if a part of our people see it very important to say they are aramean, why the part of the assyriansm deny the aramean history part?  :blink:

if a big part of our people want to identify themselve with subartu, why we would deny it than? or why we dont show i more that its our too?

i dont  understand why you see it as aramean propaganda..
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline AssyrianKing19

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 322
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 12:00:10 PM »
Look the simple thing to do is to unite under one church. The main point is to unite into one church who cares what sect it is because none are different its all the same rubbish. We needed to pick one and stick to it. This was the really problem to our race not Muslims or Turks it was unity. As that one douche bag said untied we stand divided we fall.

Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 06:39:23 PM »
xxSanhoxx

did you read the article in this thread?
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2008, 07:05:20 PM »
@Assyrianism, yes i read it. and this before you posted it here..

Another questions: Who do you (all) see as the fathers of the Assyrianism? (I dont mean the User here in AVN  :mrgreen:)

And i dont said that the anti-assyrianism started as the ACOE put the assyrian in the church name, i said only that this was an argument against the assyrianism for the anti-assyrians! this is one reason why they have these power!

today you can ask stupid arameans or western church members for "assyrians", they only associate with this assyrians from iraq which are member of the ACOE. think about!

and again: The Aramean and Chaldean history isnt any invention of the churches! if it is so, why the first assyrian party which still exist, the Assyrian Democratic Organisation, established in 1958, said from her first day: "We Assyrians today are the sons of the Aramean, Chaldean, Assyrian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Sumerian people of Mesopotamia"? And why this Organisation was a product of the Assyrianism? (Im not a member of the ADO, on the contrary...).

did you read simo parpola's "assyrian identity"?
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2008, 09:13:09 PM »
Name this great People please, who "established" the assyrianism?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 09:15:07 PM by xxSanhoxx »
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 01:56:05 AM »
http://aina.org/jsp/articles/assyrianidentity.pdf


so 6000 years our people speak english and say to our people Assyrian?  :blink:
Syrian/-c and Assyrian are the same words!
Our history, and the fathers of the assyriansm teached it too, included aramean history too!
and if a part of our people see it very important to say they are aramean, why the part of the assyriansm deny the aramean history part?  :blink:

if a big part of our people want to identify themselve with subartu, why we would deny it than? or why we dont show i more that its our too?

i dont  understand why you see it as aramean propaganda..


Assyrian is english translation of Assuraye, obviously what i meant.

Syriac is not same word as Assyrian, the ancient Assyrians never called themselves Syriac(never Suraye/Suroye), and definitely Syriac & Assyrian don't mean the same thing in modern times.

Fact is, we would never even think about acknowledging our Aramean history if no Assyrian identified themselves as an Aramean today, i think you'll agree with me there.


Offline Free_Assyria

  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
  • Free Occupied-Assyria
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2008, 02:06:45 AM »
so your comparing Mar dinkha putting Assyrian on COE to what the other churches have done, you cant turn a blind eye to how much damage the Syriac and Chaldean catholic churches have done to our national movement.
"The World has no glory without the Assyrians"

Offline Aturaya

  • Mid-Level Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1078
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2008, 03:43:51 AM »
Man i dont see why everyone cant just call them selfs Assyrian, people have told me that Chaldean means Catholic Assyrian why cant they just call the church Assyrian Catholic church? and the syriac orthodox church to Assyrian Orthodox church? who does everyone have to split up for?

I think Assyrians in general can't agree on one thing, we can't even agree uppon a name imagine we had like a country within a couple of years we would probally have civil war.

Heh by the way things are going in a few years you never know someone might split and start a 'Akkadian ancient church' & Sumerian Catholic church LOL

Offline xxSanhoxx

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 678
  • Gender: Male
    • Assyrian Youth Federation of Middle Europe
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2008, 11:01:00 AM »
What did Naum Faiq wrote?

Here a poem by Malfono Naum Faiq:

http://www.bethnahrin.de/Bilder/060205Naum_Faik/assyrisch/5.JPG

I cant read assyrian (i will learn!), but i have read the translation in german..
.."Sons of Aram"..

He didnt deny any part of our history. Mor Yohanun Dolabani didnt too.
A lot of them didnt!

Why we deny it? If a part of our people think they are real arameans, okay, lets show them that we are real arameans too, but not only!

Read Parpola's "Aramization of Assyria"... And for the special people: Read about Subartu, Arameans, Assyrians, Assyria, and the words in Assyrian -> What does they mean?

The todays "Aramean flag" is an assyrian symbol, why we deny it?

Yes, it would be much easier if everyone call themselve Assyrian.
And that our people get split in 3-4-5 parts its a big mistake of the Churches.
Maybe the one church have more debt than the other, but thats not important.
Dont forget that in our people from the three "big" churches the ACOE the smallest one is.

And dont forget that 100 years ago the Syriac Orthodox Church was only called in this versions"(Old) Assyrian (Orthodox) Church". But the important thing: Dont forget that these people who call themselves aramean or chaldean are still our people, and that aramean and chaldean is included in the Assyrianism, and if for these parts this ethnicy is important, than lets use these names for the Unity, not for the Splitting, like the Arameanism or Chaldeanism are using this holy names of our people!

Lets show them, Assyrian, Assyrinsm does mean: To bet the Son of the great people of the Arameans, Chaldean, Babylonians, Sumerian, Akkadians, Assyrian. To bet from their great Places, Babylonia, Assyria, Akkad, Sumer, Chaldäa, and the city-kingdoms of the Arameans. and so on..
And you can see it from eevry sight: as to be aramean, as to be from the places, as the aramean were a part of the assyrian empire, as that assyrian and aramean get one people, as that the word "aramean" means nothing more "the people from the high places", and so on - aramean is compare with assyrian..


And about Syriac/Syrian and Assyrian. Yes, im with you that the word Assyrian is the only one right Nationality for us. BUT, if the second big church of our people identify themselve with SYRIAC, why we deny that syriac is coming from Assur? Use our national, historical, ethnicy names for the Unity, without to deny anything!

shlome
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 12:15:12 PM by xxSanhoxx »
"..To be an Assyrian is to feel: The past is my heritage I shall forget it not; the present, my responsibility; the future, my challenge." - Dr. David Barsum Perley

Offline davidb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2008, 06:18:00 PM »
What did Naum Faiq wrote?

Here a poem by Malfono Naum Faiq:

http://www.bethnahrin.de/Bilder/060205Naum_Faik/assyrisch/5.JPG

I cant read assyrian (i will learn!), but i have read the translation in german..
.."Sons of Aram"..

He didnt deny any part of our history. Mor Yohanun Dolabani didnt too.
A lot of them didnt!

Why we deny it? If a part of our people think they are real arameans, okay, lets show them that we are real arameans too, but not only!

Read Parpola's "Aramization of Assyria"... And for the special people: Read about Subartu, Arameans, Assyrians, Assyria, and the words in Assyrian -> What does they mean?

The todays "Aramean flag" is an assyrian symbol, why we deny it?

Yes, it would be much easier if everyone call themselve Assyrian.
And that our people get split in 3-4-5 parts its a big mistake of the Churches.
Maybe the one church have more debt than the other, but thats not important.
Dont forget that in our people from the three "big" churches the ACOE the smallest one is.

And dont forget that 100 years ago the Syriac Orthodox Church was only called in this versions"(Old) Assyrian (Orthodox) Church". But the important thing: Dont forget that these people who call themselves aramean or chaldean are still our people, and that aramean and chaldean is included in the Assyrianism, and if for these parts this ethnicy is important, than lets use these names for the Unity, not for the Splitting, like the Arameanism or Chaldeanism are using this holy names of our people!

Lets show them, Assyrian, Assyrinsm does mean: To bet the Son of the great people of the Arameans, Chaldean, Babylonians, Sumerian, Akkadians, Assyrian. To bet from their great Places, Babylonia, Assyria, Akkad, Sumer, Chaldäa, and the city-kingdoms of the Arameans. and so on..
And you can see it from eevry sight: as to be aramean, as to be from the places, as the aramean were a part of the assyrian empire, as that assyrian and aramean get one people, as that the word "aramean" means nothing more "the people from the high places", and so on - aramean is compare with assyrian..


And about Syriac/Syrian and Assyrian. Yes, im with you that the word Assyrian is the only one right Nationality for us. BUT, if the second big church of our people identify themselve with SYRIAC, why we deny that syriac is coming from Assur? Use our national, historical, ethnicy names for the Unity, without to deny anything!

shlome


So we have to start recognizing our Aramean history just because certain Syriac Assyrians believe in the Kurdish propaganda that is "Aramean". Why we deny Aramean? Because the people who identify themselves as Arameans say they have nothing to do with modern Assyrians, then they say modern Assyrians are Aramean.


Offline Aturaya

  • Mid-Level Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1078
  • Gender: Male
Re: Crusade against the Assyrian name
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2008, 06:27:59 PM »
So we have to start recognizing our Aramean history just because certain Syriac Assyrians believe in the Kurdish propaganda that is "Aramean". Why we deny Aramean? Because the people who identify themselves as Arameans say they have nothing to do with modern Assyrians, then they say modern Assyrians are Aramean.



Exactly, and im pretty sure it was the Assyrians who invaded the aramean tribes (they never had an empire right?) and assimilated them into the Assyrian empire?

 

Assyrian: East meets West

Started by PhiruelBoard Assyrian Language Center

Replies: 528
Views: 54725
Last post February 26, 2011, 06:33:56 AM
by Zawoyo
****Interesting Old Assyrian Pictures****

Started by rumrumBoard Chit Chat

Replies: 26
Views: 791
Last post February 26, 2006, 09:11:24 PM
by miranda
Assyrian Voice Yearbook 2005!

Started by ASHOORBoard Classic Threads

Replies: 213
Views: 25433
Last post November 20, 2006, 08:54:14 AM
by atourina
Kurdish Minister Has No Objection to Assyrian Christian Administrative Area

Started by AudaciousBoard Culture & History

Replies: 5
Views: 855
Last post February 27, 2006, 11:45:05 PM
by Enki
best ASsYriAN singeR

Started by KrayZBoard Music & Arts

Replies: 28
Views: 3404
Last post March 20, 2006, 05:14:48 AM
by mishtutho