Author Topic: "Assyriod" Race  (Read 7157 times)

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Offline mrzurnaci

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"Assyriod" Race
« on: April 12, 2010, 11:00:10 PM »
pretty informative article on the 'Armenoid' and 'Assyriod' race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid

I can see the exact reason why alot of Assyrians mix with Armenians.



Offline GreenTea

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 07:39:03 PM »
I always find it stupid. :blink:

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 08:14:28 PM »
First: wikipedia is not a credible source.
Second: there is no real scientific ability to determine race from the DNA.
Third: if people sincerely believe in the existence of race in the DNA, then I'm led to believe that they generally are truly the epitome of racism.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 08:14:28 PM »

Offline Damail

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 10:33:40 PM »
Race, by definition, are the physical characteristics that set certain groups apart from others.

So yes, it does very much have to do with our DNA and biology which obviously determines the physical traits people will inherit.

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2010, 06:55:09 AM »
Universally accepted by all scientists, scientific data shows that race cannot be found in DNA.

It's a social concept. Are you trying to argue with science and scientists? Go for it. Do you have credibility? Not likely. Therefore, you have no valid justification for your statements.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Hanuni

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2010, 07:48:34 AM »
Universally accepted by all scientists, scientific data shows that race cannot be found in DNA.

It's a social concept. Are you trying to argue with science and scientists? Go for it. Do you have credibility? Not likely. Therefore, you have no valid justification for your statements.

Actually you're wrong. Race can be found in DNA.

Could you please post all of the scientists you are claiming being against this?

Haplogroups do not affect your phenotype, but your Autosomal DNA is the source of your phenotype and race.
“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2010, 08:54:34 AM »
Actually, you're wrong. Every scientist in their right mind has agreed upon this universally-accepted knowledge. You can find out where the general region your ancestors may have come from, but you cannot track your race. Race is a social concept.

Let me ask you something: Are you a scientist? If your answer is "no" (which it likely is) then you have zero credibility on this subject matter. Please consult a book written by a credible scientist about DNA and race and come back and talk to me. The concept of race in the DNA was fabricated because it helped push a sick and despicable agenda during racial times.

You want to believe in scientific racism? Go ahead. But don't act surprised when you come across a credible scientist that'll piss all over that bullsh*t theory that desperately attempts to perpetuate racism. I choose to believe factual information written by scholars because I have zero tolerance for nonsense and stupidity. I like to deal with logic and facts.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline GreenTea

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2010, 09:45:59 AM »
Actually, you're wrong. Every scientist in their right mind has agreed upon this universally-accepted knowledge. You can find out where the general region your ancestors may have come from, but you cannot track your race. Race is a social concept.

Let me ask you something: Are you a scientist? If your answer is "no" (which it likely is) then you have zero credibility on this subject matter. Please consult a book written by a credible scientist about DNA and race and come back and talk to me. The concept of race in the DNA was fabricated because it helped push a sick and despicable agenda during racial times.

You want to believe in scientific racism? Go ahead. But don't act surprised when you come across a credible scientist that'll piss all over that bullsh*t theory that desperately attempts to perpetuate racism. I choose to believe factual information written by scholars because I have zero tolerance for nonsense and stupidity. I like to deal with logic and facts.

That is what it is. It's part of this whole racism in the scientific community.

Offline Hanuni

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 11:07:04 AM »
Actually, you're wrong. Every scientist in their right mind has agreed upon this universally-accepted knowledge. You can find out where the general region your ancestors may have come from, but you cannot track your race. Race is a social concept.

Let me ask you something: Are you a scientist? If your answer is "no" (which it likely is) then you have zero credibility on this subject matter. Please consult a book written by a credible scientist about DNA and race and come back and talk to me. The concept of race in the DNA was fabricated because it helped push a sick and despicable agenda during racial times.

You want to believe in scientific racism? Go ahead. But don't act surprised when you come across a credible scientist that'll piss all over that bullsh*t theory that desperately attempts to perpetuate racism. I choose to believe factual information written by scholars because I have zero tolerance for nonsense and stupidity. I like to deal with logic and facts.

You can classify people into different races whether you want it or not and it is in our DNA. Do you seriously believe that you and a Black Ethiopian belong to the same race?

I do not like your attitude and opininos where you try to mix the classification of races with racism. I am not talking about "White supremacy" and scientific racism in the sense you are talking about which evolved in the Uppsala University. I am solely talking about the classification of races only and it is a fact that we do have different races, as Negroids, Caucasoids etc.

And I am no scientist but I am interested in such matters. Are you a scientist?

Now I am not for differences among races but while we are at it. How do you explain the average IQ for white men being higher than the IQ of black men? It could be explained with the lack of education among the black population but then again we have never seen a black civilisation and the study was made in the US. There are differences among us we need to embrace both positive and negative ones.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:09:40 AM by Hanuni »
“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 11:27:01 AM »
negative ones.
maybe I should delete the topic, it's causing people to argue alot, I don't wanna be a troll.

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 11:34:31 AM »
pretty informative article on the 'Armenoid' and 'Assyriod' race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid

I can see the exact reason why alot of Assyrians mix with Armenians.


First of all, "Armenoid" is not a race. Armenoid (or more specifically, Armenid, since -oid means similar to rather than indicating a specific type) is a phenotypic subtype coined to describe an Anatolian physical type. The term "race" has been misused in various context. Armenids are part of the Caucasian race, as are Assyrians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

Armenoid was a popular term back in the days of physical anthropology and typology. It's not used that often nowadays.

Also, Assyrians and Armenians are more or less the same genetic group. Difference is mostly in language and separate churches. There's no such thing as an "Assyrian race" though, but Assyrians are a tightly knit genetic (ethnic) group.

First: wikipedia is not a credible source.
Second: there is no real scientific ability to determine race from the DNA.
Third: if people sincerely believe in the existence of race in the DNA, then I'm led to believe that they generally are truly the epitome of racism.


1) True, but the usage of "Armenoid" is well established regardless of Wikipedia.
2) Sure there is, you just don't know what you're talking about.
3) Who cares what you think. Race is a well established scientific fact regardless of how much you throw around the racist card.

Race, by definition, are the physical characteristics that set certain groups apart from others.

So yes, it does very much have to do with our DNA and biology which obviously determines the physical traits people will inherit.


Race is first and foremost a phylogenetic lineage, phenetic differences isn't a requirement although there are some animal races (among other, human races) that differ in phenotype, just as there are many animal races that don't differ much at all in phenotype.

Universally accepted by all scientists, scientific data shows that race cannot be found in DNA.

It's a social concept. Are you trying to argue with science and scientists? Go for it. Do you have credibility? Not likely. Therefore, you have no valid justification for your statements.


There are scientists who acknowledge the reality of race, case in point:

http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007

Those who don't usually have an agenda, like Richard Lewontin.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:36:28 AM by Alucard »

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2010, 11:35:06 AM »
maybe I should delete the topic, it's causing people to argue alot, I don't wanna be a troll.

No please don't delete it. But you could correct the title from Assyriod to Assyroid.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:35:39 AM by Alucard »

Offline GreenTea

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 05:10:06 PM »
I guess I can have an nose job and make my nose like a black dude... :loool: Yep then I guess I'm black when I do a nose job. :loool:

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 05:51:42 PM »
I guess I can have an nose job and make my nose like a black dude... :loool: Yep then I guess I'm black when I do a nose job. :loool:
'sup my nigga  :loool: (I gotta stop saying that...)

Offline Damail

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2010, 07:11:21 PM »
Universally accepted by all scientists, scientific data shows that race cannot be found in DNA.

It's a social concept. Are you trying to argue with science and scientists? Go for it. Do you have credibility? Not likely. Therefore, you have no valid justification for your statements.

Your right, it is a social concept.

However, strictly going on DNA and what can be seen under a microscope and then stating that the concept of race is none existent is arrogant. Race is manifested through people. The simple fact that we all look different, have different vulnerabilities, resiliencies, etc. is proof enough of a diversity among our species.

I have no idea why you see it as a racist term, it is by no means a way to perpetuate one group over another. I am by no means a scientist, and neither are you, but at least I'm actually giving points instead of repeatedly shouting "scientist this, and science that". Speaking of which, where is your proof that race doesn't exist? Should I just shut my eyes?  
« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 07:13:16 PM by Damail »

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2010, 08:19:54 PM »
Jareh, you guys are so staunch about your ignorance.

Yea, you guys that have ZERO credibility are arguing with thousands of scientists that have evidence against the existence of race in DNA? Yea, they're all wrong and you're right. Yea, that's it.

:no:

If race exists, draw a distinct line between them. Oh! Wait a minute! You can't! We all have similarities and differences, but there's no real concrete distinction between all of us.

You can classify people into different races whether you want it or not and it is in our DNA. Do you seriously believe that you and a Black Ethiopian belong to the same race?

I do not like your attitude and opininos where you try to mix the classification of races with racism. I am not talking about "White supremacy" and scientific racism in the sense you are talking about which evolved in the Uppsala University. I am solely talking about the classification of races only and it is a fact that we do have different races, as Negroids, Caucasoids etc.

And I am no scientist but I am interested in such matters. Are you a scientist?

Now I am not for differences among races but while we are at it. How do you explain the average IQ for white men being higher than the IQ of black men? It could be explained with the lack of education among the black population but then again we have never seen a black civilisation and the study was made in the US. There are differences among us we need to embrace both positive and negative ones.


Believing in the existence of race found in our DNA = scientific racism.

Perhaps you lack the ability to understand my statements. There is race; however, race is merely a social concept. PERIOD.

I am not a scientist; however, this was my minor. Therefore, I have a slight amount of credibility. But putting that aside, I don't need to be a scientist because I'm NOT trying to change reality.

You guys are attempting to go head to head with scientists and sociobiologists that have doctorate degrees in these fields and refute their knowledge of not finding race in DNA when they have done CREDIBLE scientific research on this subject matter.

Don't talk to me. Go argue with a scientist and sociobiologist. They'll tell you, for a fact, that race CANNOT be found in the DNA.

White men having higher IQ in America is not a surprise. Minorities, such as blacks and Latinos, largely live in urban arenas. These urban clusters have much lower educational standards because their low property taxes, which fund the educational system in their area, is low. White men live in middle to upper class arenas and therefore, have better access to education.

1) True, but the usage of "Armenoid" is well established regardless of Wikipedia.
2) Sure there is, you just don't know what you're talking about.
3) Who cares what you think. Race is a well established scientific fact regardless of how much you throw around the racist card.

There are scientists who acknowledge the reality of race, case in point:

http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007

Those who don't usually have an agenda, like Richard Lewontin.


http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

So, the government is wrong? The government that funds CREDIBLE scientists to research this matter?

Your right, it is a social concept.

However, strictly going on DNA and what can be seen under a microscope and then stating that the concept of race is none existent is arrogant. Race is manifested through people. The simple fact that we all look different, have different vulnerabilities, resiliencies, etc. is proof enough of a diversity among our species.

I have no idea why you see it as a racist term, it is by no means a way to perpetuate one group over another. I am by no means a scientist, and neither are you, but at least I'm actually giving points instead of repeatedly shouting "scientist this, and science that". Speaking of which, where is your proof that race doesn't exist? Should I just shut my eyes?   


http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010211&slug=race11m

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37407

http://wupa.wustl.edu/record_archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Race-by-Ben-Dench-090519-305.html
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2010, 03:04:51 AM »
Jareh, you guys are so staunch about your ignorance.

Yea, you guys that have ZERO credibility are arguing with thousands of scientists that have evidence against the existence of race in DNA? Yea, they're all wrong and you're right. Yea, that's it.


There aren't that many scientists who have any scientific proof against race. Most of them are reusing the Lewontin fallacy naive people like you buy into:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy

And before you say Wikipedia is not a reliable source, here's the actual study:

http://www.goodrumj.com/Edwards.pdf

If race exists, draw a distinct line between them. Oh! Wait a minute! You can't! We all have similarities and differences, but there's no real concrete distinction between all of us.


Here you go:



This image is from a Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) study:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genome_Diversity_Project
http://www.stanford.edu/group/morrinst/hgdp.html

And the study in question, with its supporting online material:

http://www.hagsc.org/myerslab/papers/LiAbsher-Science-HGDP.pdf
http://www.hagsc.com/myerslab/papers/LiAbsher-SOM-HGDP.pdf

Believing in the existence of race found in our DNA = scientific racism.


So? Is that a crime?

Perhaps you lack the ability to understand my statements. There is race; however, race is merely a social concept. PERIOD.


No, race is biological. The social concept of race is based on peoples' misconception since they don't understand race from a biological concept.

I am not a scientist; however, this was my minor. Therefore, I have a slight amount of credibility. But putting that aside, I don't need to be a scientist because I'm NOT trying to change reality.


1) You have no credibility whatsoever, nor do you understand anything about race.

2) You sound very emotional in your race denial.

You guys are attempting to go head to head with scientists and sociobiologists that have doctorate degrees in these fields and refute their knowledge of not finding race in DNA when they have done CREDIBLE scientific research on this subject matter.


Two logical fallacies for you to understand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_verecundiam

Don't talk to me. Go argue with a scientist and sociobiologist. They'll tell you, for a fact, that race CANNOT be found in the DNA.


If they do so it's because they're lying for political reasons. Fact of the matter is, race is encoded in the human genome, and this can be seen through modern genome-wide SNP (commercial, private or otherwise) tests.

White men having higher IQ in America is not a surprise. Minorities, such as blacks and Latinos, largely live in urban arenas. These urban clusters have much lower educational standards because their low property taxes, which fund the educational system in their area, is low. White men live in middle to upper class arenas and therefore, have better access to education.


IQ is 80% heritable.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

So, the government is wrong? The government that funds CREDIBLE scientists to research this matter?


You're so naive, the government doesn't fund credible scientists, these scientists are bribed to deny race because of the current state propaganda.

Also, that link is complete nonsense.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010211&slug=race11m

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37407

http://wupa.wustl.edu/record_archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Race-by-Ben-Dench-090519-305.html


Look, modern genome-wide SNP tests (very powerful technology, it's the next best thing to full genome sequencing) shows that racial groups cluster together according to the traditional race definitions (more or less). Not all genetic research is the same. Haplogroup tests are sex-specific and not as useful as autosomal DNA studies (which is what genome-wide SNP tests are). You deny race because you have an agenda.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 01:34:34 AM by Alucard »

Offline jacob

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2010, 04:31:12 AM »
There will always be those primitive holdouts that will latch onto and defend the elitists' terms and tools of oppression.  They defend these Eurocentric racist constructs to their deaths because they will always strive, in vain, to one day reach equal status with those that they look up to.

Scientific racism has been used for over a century to justify European imperialism and the ideologies behind racial superiority.  This has led to things like American slavery and the Nazi executed Holocaust.  But it's no wonder that people who believe in strict eugenics would jump on board with these theories.  It suits their political agenda.


Look, modern genome-wide SNP tests (very powerful technology, it's the next best thing to full genome sequencing) shows that racial groups cluster together according to the traditional race definitions (more or less). Not all genetic research is the same. Haplogroup tests are sex-specific and not as useful as autosomal DNA studies (which is what genome-wide SNP tests are). You deny race because you have an agenda.

How's that for authoritative scientific terminology?  Let's clarify what the more or less is in regards to this statement that shows our "racial" clusters.  Most major groups of humans have migrated too recently and have mixed too much for there to be any true clustering that is able to be sorted, that being polymorphisms in our DNA that would be present in one group and absent in another.  That would be definitive proof that there are distinct groups of people in various parts of the world.  But those do not exist because of what I said above, humans have migrated too recently and have mixed too much.  What happens with the more or less in terms of traditional race definitions is when you have highly isolated groups of people you get more cluster and there's way less cluster when you test people in densely populated areas where more mixing has taken place.  Thus you aren't truly testing for or isolating race at this point, only clusters of population based on geographical location.  Because those people in those locations generally have a self-identifying ethnicity, you can blend the two and say you can point an ethnicity to a geographical location, but you cannot say that you can determine any race of an individual.

And oftentimes what you see as racial classifications are merely visual observations that have been categorized using segregationist constructs that we've created.  We see a "black" person and say he is African or Negroid or whatever term you use, so that person should in theory be tested back to a part of Africa.  But what happens when you test an Australian Aborigine?  I mean they are black right?  Or what happens when you have two groups that you test and they are genetically similar but don't look anything alike?  This is where natural selection comes into play and ruins our definitions of race.  You could take a group, for example, of Scandinavians and move them to Sub-Saharan Africa and over time they will begin to darken in their skin pigmentation in a natural adaptation to their environmental exposure to the sun.  In the future you would look at these "Africans" and assume they were African or Negroid, but when you test them you would find they could be geographically traced to northern Europe.  This same thing always happens with Jews because of their variance in appearance between Ashkenazim and Sephardim or Mizrahim.  But when you test them you find common ancestors in all of them that geographically places their root population in the Middle East in what is now around the area of Israel.  So why do the Ashkenazi look so much whiter than their Mediterranean or Middle Eastern brothers?  A bit of natural selection combined with intermixing with local populations.  But because they look different to our eyes, Scientific Racists will use that against them to create division and spread myth about their origins because they know how important their origins are to them.  This is the continued danger of race classification in anthropological, sociological, and taxonomical terms in regards to humans.  It serves no purpose other than to divide us as humans and create false superiority for one groups' continued domination over others.

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2010, 07:01:43 AM »
Yea, Alucard. You're right and every credible scientist is wrong because they have an agenda and apparently you don't. Yea, that's it.

Just come out and call yourself a racist already.

You're just mad because your failure in actually attaining an education in the scientific field makes you feel inferior and you want to desperately find evidence supporting the existence of race in DNA so you can actually feel good about yourself and superior to those that are smarter than you. LOL!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 07:17:20 AM by Ashuriena »
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2010, 08:18:17 AM »
There will always be those primitive holdouts that will latch onto and defend the elitists' terms and tools of oppression.  They defend these Eurocentric racist constructs to their deaths because they will always strive, in vain, to one day reach equal status with those that they look up to.

That's a funny ad hominem, but I would say it's the other way around: you deny race because you want to be equal to Europeans. As someone who acknowledges the existence in race, I don't believe in racial equality. Evolution does not produce equality.

And the reason I acknowledge race is simply because it exists. It's an established scientific fact, empirically proven and biologically real. To me it's no different than defending evolution, which race is part of.

Scientific racism has been used for over a century to justify European imperialism and the ideologies behind racial superiority.  This has led to things like American slavery and the Nazi executed Holocaust.  But it's no wonder that people who believe in strict eugenics would jump on board with these theories.  It suits their political agenda.

And you don't have an agenda, of course :) Your Lewontinian agenda is no surprise to me; I expected that since you're half-Jewish and Richard Lewontin is a Jew as well who denies race because he's motivated by similar egalitarianism as you are.

Europeans were enslaving and oppressing sub-Saharan Africans and native Americans long before "scientific racism", ad did the Arabs in the case of African slavery. Your argument doesn't hold any water. Also, so called "scientific racism" as it was back in the 1930's, wasn't really scientific as they didn't use population genetics.

And the "Holocaust", has no say so in whether race exists or not. You can't say race doesn't exist just because you're worried about Shoah and slavery or whatever. It's beside the point. You can't wish race away just because you're worried about genocide. And that's your agenda really, that's what motivates you to deny race, not that you have any actual scientific logic in your race denial.

How's that for authoritative scientific terminology?  Let's clarify what the more or less is in regards to this statement that shows our "racial" clusters.  Most major groups of humans have migrated too recently and have mixed too much for there to be any true clustering that is able to be sorted, that being polymorphisms in our DNA that would be present in one group and absent in another.

This is not true. And once you get your 23andMe results and compare with other people on 23andMe, where they cluster, you will understand that you're just making up nonsense with this statement. You will also understand why you cannot be mistaken with sub-Saharan Africans and Chinese/Japanese populations on the PCA plot, with genome-wide SNP at 560,000 SNPs.

That would be definitive proof that there are distinct groups of people in various parts of the world.  But those do not exist because of what I said above, humans have migrated too recently and have mixed too much.

You're making up nonsense. Recently mixed groups (within the last 500 years) are not representative of unmixed populations. You're basically saying there are no distinct groups of people, this is denial of human diversity. You're not an honest person as far as the diversity of humanity is concerned. I'm sure you would consider Jews to be distinct, though.

What happens with the more or less in terms of traditional race definitions is when you have highly isolated groups of people you get more cluster and there's way less cluster when you test people in densely populated areas where more mixing has taken place.  Thus you aren't truly testing for or isolating race at this point, only clusters of population based on geographical location.  Because those people in those locations generally have a self-identifying ethnicity, you can blend the two and say you can point an ethnicity to a geographical location, but you cannot say that you can determine any race of an individual.

You're just talking about clusters you have no idea what the hell they are. You don't even understand how they differ in Fst-distance.

And oftentimes what you see as racial classifications are merely visual observations that have been categorized using segregationist constructs that we've created.  We see a "black" person and say he is African or Negroid or whatever term you use, so that person should in theory be tested back to a part of Africa.  But what happens when you test an Australian Aborigine?  I mean they are black right?  Or what happens when you have two groups that you test and they are genetically similar but don't look anything alike?  This is where natural selection comes into play and ruins our definitions of race.  You could take a group, for example, of Scandinavians and move them to Sub-Saharan Africa and over time they will begin to darken in their skin pigmentation in a natural adaptation to their environmental exposure to the sun.  In the future you would look at these "Africans" and assume they were African or Negroid, but when you test them you would find they could be geographically traced to northern Europe.  This same thing always happens with Jews because of their variance in appearance between Ashkenazim and Sephardim or Mizrahim.  But when you test them you find common ancestors in all of them that geographically places their root population in the Middle East in what is now around the area of Israel.  So why do the Ashkenazi look so much whiter than their Mediterranean or Middle Eastern brothers?  A bit of natural selection combined with intermixing with local populations.  But because they look different to our eyes, Scientific Racists will use that against them to create division and spread myth about their origins because they know how important their origins are to them.  This is the continued danger of race classification in anthropological, sociological, and taxonomical terms in regards to humans.  It serves no purpose other than to divide us as humans and create false superiority for one groups' continued domination over others.

Australian aboriginals may be "black" but they are not sub-Saharan Africans. They are an entirely different genetic/racial group, regardless of similar skin colour. And it's not a guarantee that Scandinavians would select for darker pigmentation in sub-Saharan Africa. It depends completely on if they're able to survive in the desert without being affected by skin cancer to the extent that it would alter their SLC45A2 frequencies.

I think the problem here—aside from your fear of reality—is that you don't understand race is not just skin deep. You also don't understand that races don't have to differ in phenotype much at all, much less so skin colour, in order to be separate races.

Also, you have no genetic evidence that Ashkenazi natural selection affected the skin pigmentation of Ashkenazi Jews during their time in Europe, you're just talking out of your ass on this one.

By the way, just because there are lots of misconceptions about race (e.g., the notion that race is a colour), that doesn't mean race doesn't exist.

Yea, Alucard. You're right and every credible scientist is wrong because they have an agenda and apparently you don't. Yea, that's it.

Just because they deny race, that doesn't make them credible simply because they're telling you what you want to hear.

Just come out and call yourself a racist already.

Listen to yourself, "come out", as if it was a crime to acknowledge the existence of race.

You're just mad because your failure in actually attaining an education in the scientific field makes you feel inferior and you want to desperately find evidence supporting the existence of race in DNA so you can actually feel good about yourself and superior to those that are smarter than you. LOL!

Genetics is more like a hobby to me, it's not something I've actually tried attaining an education for and somehow failed, as I'm simply not that interested in the topic. Also, you're not smarter than me, so don't even go there. I'm not desperate at all, because I don't even have to prove race exists as it's already been done, you just don't want to accept reality for political reasons (your opposition to "scientific racism").

Try actually reading the studies I posted and understanding what they're saying before you recycle the same nonsense argument "BUT CREDIBLE SCIENTISTS HAVE SAID RACE DOESN'T EXIST THEREFORE IT MUST BE SO!!!!!!!!!!!11one" you're running out of arguments. Try actually having your own opinion based on the evidence, that is, if you can understand the studies.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 10:48:58 AM by Alucard »

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2010, 08:34:18 AM »
I never said I was smarter than you. As you are not fortunate enough to be called illiterate, perhaps you may be mentally, hmmm...what's the word? Defective.

Go argue with scientists so they can piss all over your retarded theories because I don't have the patience to speak with feeble-minded individuals that deem they're omniscient when they can't even comprehend mere facts.

Yea, everyone has an agenda except for you. Yea, I'll believe that when my sh*t turns purple and tastes like rainbow sherbet. Racist shweekha.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Damail

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2010, 01:20:10 PM »
Honestly, its like talking to a brick wall.


Offline Tambur

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2010, 08:12:47 PM »
I never said I was smarter than you. As you are not fortunate enough to be called illiterate, perhaps you may be mentally, hmmm...what's the word? Defective.

Go argue with scientists so they can piss all over your retarded theories because I don't have the patience to speak with feeble-minded individuals that deem they're omniscient when they can't even comprehend mere facts.

Yea, everyone has an agenda except for you. Yea, I'll believe that when my sh*t turns purple and tastes like rainbow sherbet. Racist shweekha.

I'm not sure why you're getting all defensive about it but it's true, there are differences in humans and that can be determined by DNA, while determining your ethnicity is not possible, figuring out which global population you relate to the most is a reality and it exists.

Yes we are all humans and the difference between us is very little as a specie, but if you look at enough projects out there, you'll notice that there are differences among us as races, for instance a Chinese person and a Japanese are much closer to one another than they are to a person from Sweden, that's because they're both Asians and their DNA clusters them closer to one another, this is proven by scientific studies and projects, the picture that Alucard makes sense and as much as I don't agree with his overall views, I must admit that you're way wrong on this one Ashuriena.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2010, 09:07:31 PM »
I'm not sure why you're getting all defensive about it but it's true, there are differences in humans and that can be determined by DNA, while determining your ethnicity is not possible, figuring out which global population you relate to the most is a reality and it exists.

Yes we are all humans and the difference between us is very little as a specie, but if you look at enough projects out there, you'll notice that there are differences among us as races, for instance a Chinese person and a Japanese are much closer to one another than they are to a person from Sweden, that's because they're both Asians and their DNA clusters them closer to one another, this is proven by scientific studies and projects, the picture that Alucard makes sense and as much as I don't agree with his overall views, I must admit that you're way wrong on this one Ashuriena.

the differences in Humans are true, even though two different are still able to have kids with each other, there are mutations in DNA, that's why Arabs don't have black skin from the Arabian sun like African people do, cause of mutations, I mean I think the major cats like lions, tigers, and jaguars can have kittens with each other, but science counts them as a different species.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 09:10:01 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2010, 11:39:25 PM »
I'm not sure why you're getting all defensive about it but it's true, there are differences in humans and that can be determined by DNA, while determining your ethnicity is not possible, figuring out which global population you relate to the most is a reality and it exists.

Yes we are all humans and the difference between us is very little as a specie, but if you look at enough projects out there, you'll notice that there are differences among us as races, for instance a Chinese person and a Japanese are much closer to one another than they are to a person from Sweden, that's because they're both Asians and their DNA clusters them closer to one another, this is proven by scientific studies and projects, the picture that Alucard makes sense and as much as I don't agree with his overall views, I must admit that you're way wrong on this one Ashuriena.

Wrong.

Reading is a wonderful thing, so is educating yourself in this field and realizing you cannot determine race from DNA. There are as many differences as there are similarities. What little I may share with you, I may not share with others of the same race at all.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Tambur

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2010, 12:34:18 AM »
Wrong.

Reading is a wonderful thing, so is educating yourself in this field and realizing you cannot determine race from DNA. There are as many differences as there are similarities. What little I may share with you, I may not share with others of the same race at all.

As I said, DNA cannot determine an ethnicity or a nationality but race if you're talking about Asian, Native American, African, European, Middle Eastern, so on CAN be determined by DNA, they call it Autosomal DNA test, this only traces you back for a few generations but it can also tell you who you match in terms of global populations, this is common sense, if me and you do such test we will likely be more related to one another than to Asians or Africans, whether that's a race thing or not that depends on how you define race, but you simply cannot deny that different genetics exist among humans, and these differences show when you have different populations that live on different parts of the world.

I'll make it simple, you are closer to your mother than you are to your third cousin, you're also closer to your third cousin than you are closer to me, but you're closer to me than you are to a Korean person, these are facts unless you're half Korean ;)

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2010, 01:23:08 AM »
As I said, DNA cannot determine an ethnicity or a nationality but race if you're talking about Asian, Native American, African, European, Middle Eastern, so on CAN be determined by DNA, they call it Autosomal DNA test, this only traces you back for a few generations but it can also tell you who you match in terms of global populations, this is common sense, if me and you do such test we will likely be more related to one another than to Asians or Africans, whether that's a race thing or not that depends on how you define race, but you simply cannot deny that different genetics exist among humans, and these differences show when you have different populations that live on different parts of the world.

I'll make it simple, you are closer to your mother than you are to your third cousin, you're also closer to your third cousin than you are closer to me, but you're closer to me than you are to a Korean person, these are facts unless you're half Korean ;)


Arguing with science? Really?

Quote
DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another.


http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2010, 04:29:05 AM »
I never said I was smarter than you. As you are not fortunate enough to be called illiterate, perhaps you may be mentally, hmmm...what's the word? Defective.

Go argue with scientists so they can piss all over your retarded theories because I don't have the patience to speak with feeble-minded individuals that deem they're omniscient when they can't even comprehend mere facts.

Yea, everyone has an agenda except for you. Yea, I'll believe that when my sh*t turns purple and tastes like rainbow sherbet. Racist shweekha.


You sound very intolerant and ignorant. My agenda is to defend evolution and science, which race is very much part of. Your agenda however is logical fallacies and emotional outbursts of "credibility" and egalitarianism. You claim you have any credibility on the subject because this was allegedly your "minor" in school, but that's nonsense because you clearly haven't learned anything. You haven't done your homework nor have you understood why it's possible to determine race through DNA (for example, with the use of genome-wide SNP).

It's important to emphasise that you Ashuriena don't have any credibility whatsoever on this topic, nor do those con artists you call "scientists", have any credibility when they deny race, because they aren't giving any actual proof for race not being possible to trace through DNA. The only one who sort of gave any proof was that Jew, Richard Lewontin, and he didn't use enough high resolution polymorphism loci because back in 1972, genome-wide SNP wasn't possible to use in genome-studies since the human genome had not been sequenced.

Anyway Ashuriena, this is your religious creed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Race_Question (UNESCO:s political agenda on race; this is not science, it's politics, and you're buying into it because of your emotional thinking rather than objective rational thinking)

Also, don't make cheap excuses; it's not that you don't have any patience, it's that you're not knowledgeable enough on the topic and refuse to accept scientific conclusions that clash with your denial of human diversity.

Racist shweekha.


What does that mean, shweekha? I don't speak Aramaic.

I'm not sure why you're getting all defensive about it but it's true, there are differences in humans and that can be determined by DNA, while determining your ethnicity is not possible, figuring out which global population you relate to the most is a reality and it exists.


She's getting defensive about it because she's anti-intellectual and emotional and have this naive belief in egalitarianism that all humans are exactly the same and that there's no difference at all between humans. Never mind science (something Ashuriena hardly believes unless it's "credible scientists"; i.e., dishonest scientists who make up lies that race doesn't exist so that she can be happy about it).

Wrong.

Reading is a wonderful thing


Reading sure is a wonderful thing, how about you try doing some of it?

so is educating yourself in this field and realizing you cannot determine race from DNA.


You are hardly educated in this field ("minor" my ass, you've been inculcated with government propaganda, not objective science). Race can be determined by DNA; you underestimate DNA when you make such foolish statements.

There are as many differences as there are similarities. What little I may share with you, I may not share with others of the same race at all.


All humans are 99.9% genetically similar as a species, at 3 billion SNPs. 0.1% or 3 million SNPs, is where all humans differ. The more you scan out of those 3 million SNPs, the less likely the chances are you will ever mistake Caucasians (including Assyrians) with sub-Saharan Africans or Chinese/Japanese people, on genome-wide SNP based PCA plots:

“Humans are all 99.9% genetically alike, but this means that there is approximately 0.1% genetic difference between any two people. The human genome contains approximately three billion DNA building blocks, which means that, between any two people, there are at least three million points of difference in the DNA. That 0.1% difference translates into quite a lot of genetic variability for scientists to study.
Source: Race and Genetics: Controversies in Biomedical, Behavioral, and Forensic Sciences

“Thus the answer to the question "How often is a pair of individuals from one population genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?" It depends on the number of polymorphisms used to define that dissimilarity and the populations being compared. Given 10 loci, three distinct populations, and the full spectrum of polymorphisms (Figure 2E), the answer is 0.3, or nearly one-third of the time. With 100 loci, the answer is 20% of the time and even using 1000 loci, 10%. However, if genetic similarity is measured over many thousands of loci, the answer becomes "never" when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations.
Source: Genetic Similarities Within and Between Human Populations

So, what Ashuriena must understand (mission impossible as it is, since she's so emotional which is typical of women), is that two fully ethnic Assyrians will always be genetically more similar with each other than they will be with someone from sub-Saharan Africa or Japan. And Assyrians will always be genetically more similar with Europeans, Arabs and north Africans (i.e., MENA populations) than we will be with native Americans or Negroids. No exceptions, this is because race is real and race is a phylogenetic lineage.

As I said, DNA cannot determine an ethnicity or a nationality


Actually, DNA can do just that, and we're doing it on ForumBiodiversity with our raw data from 23andMe (a commercial genetic testing company), number 21, 22 and 25 are Assyrians:



But ethnic identities and nationalities are not exactly hardcoded in DNA yet. So Assyrians and Armenians, will cluster very close on PCA plots, whereas for example, Norwegians and Swedes will cluster very close with each other regardless of nationality, and Poles will cluster very close with Germans and Baltic nations, and so on. But all these groups are pretty much within the same West Eurasian cluster on the larger global PCA plot, as can be seen on 23andMe and deCODEme.

Arguing with science? Really?


You oppose science when you deny race.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7


That's hardly science. That's government propaganda.

And you can damn well get consistent racial patterns with autosomal DNA at genome-wide SNP using enough markers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogenetics

It's race denial and nonsense that human diversity can't be mapped cladistically using phylogenetics.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 01:44:57 AM by Alucard »

Offline Tambur

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2010, 11:21:30 AM »

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2010, 02:09:21 PM »
I'm arguing with science? I'm just curious, what do you make of this?

http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm


It should be mentioned that Cavalli-Sforza used classical markers (blood antigens and outdated technology) in his genetic research. Cavalli-Sforza has also said race doesn't exist for political reasons, although his work clearly supports the existence of race (He uses racial terminology like "Caucasoid", "Negroid", and so on). Today we have genome-wide SNP and in the future, full genome sequencing will be the norm.

Offline Ashuriena

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2010, 06:52:39 AM »
LOL @ wikipedia sources. Pathetic. I gave credible sources and you gave me wikipedia. Wow, I'm going to stop responding. That's just pathetic. Seriously. Pathetic.

Yes, everyone has an agenda except you. Yes, that's it. Keep telling yourself that.
I find out who sprayed it, and I'm puttin' you under the pavement. No Buddhist priest, Catholic or Baptist pastor can save him. I'm far from religious, but I got beliefs. So, I put canary yellow diamonds on my Jesus piece. - Game

Offline Tambur

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2010, 01:56:00 PM »
LOL @ wikipedia sources. Pathetic. I gave credible sources and you gave me wikipedia. Wow, I'm going to stop responding. That's just pathetic. Seriously. Pathetic.

Yes, everyone has an agenda except you. Yes, that's it. Keep telling yourself that.

I did not give a Wiki source, you still did not answer me, what do you make of the study that I linked?

Offline Hanuni

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2010, 04:34:19 PM »
LOL @ wikipedia sources. Pathetic. I gave credible sources and you gave me wikipedia. Wow, I'm going to stop responding. That's just pathetic. Seriously. Pathetic.

Yes, everyone has an agenda except you. Yes, that's it. Keep telling yourself that.

Alucard answered all of your claims with scientific resources. If you're going to stop responding it is not because the thread is pathetic, it is because you know you can't argue with science.



“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Alucard

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2010, 01:14:02 PM »
LOL @ wikipedia sources. Pathetic. I gave credible sources and you gave me wikipedia. Wow, I'm going to stop responding. That's just pathetic. Seriously. Pathetic.

Yes, everyone has an agenda except you. Yes, that's it. Keep telling yourself that.


Don't be anti-intellectual, you're running out of arguments. I gave you two scientific sources scientifically contradicting that bullsh1t government link you've been spamming in this thread:

“Humans are all 99.9% genetically alike, but this means that there is approximately 0.1% genetic difference between any two people. The human genome contains approximately three billion DNA building blocks, which means that, between any two people, there are at least three million points of difference in the DNA. That 0.1% difference translates into quite a lot of genetic variability for scientists to study.
Source: Race and Genetics: Controversies in Biomedical, Behavioral, and Forensic Sciences

“Thus the answer to the question "How often is a pair of individuals from one population genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?" It depends on the number of polymorphisms used to define that dissimilarity and the populations being compared. Given 10 loci, three distinct populations, and the full spectrum of polymorphisms (Figure 2E), the answer is 0.3, or nearly one-third of the time. With 100 loci, the answer is 20% of the time and even using 1000 loci, 10%. However, if genetic similarity is measured over many thousands of loci, the answer becomes "never" when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations.
Source: Genetic Similarities Within and Between Human Populations


These two excerpts are not from Wikipedia, and it's empirically proven and verified that you cannot mistake a European with a Nigerian or Mongolian, when using enough genome-wide SNP markers. You need to unlearn the nonsense you've been inculcated with from that race denial government site.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 01:16:23 PM by Alucard »

Offline GreenTea

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Re: "Assyriod" Race
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2010, 03:44:51 PM »
Don't be anti-intellectual, you're running out of arguments. I gave you two scientific sources scientifically contradicting that bullsh1t government link you've been spamming in this thread:

These two excerpts are not from Wikipedia, and it's empirically proven and verified that you cannot mistake a European with a Nigerian or Mongolian, when using enough genome-wide SNP markers. You need to unlearn the nonsense you've been inculcated with from that race denial government site.

How about I cast a spell on you... I don't like this energy that I'm feeling about you.


You know, everyone came from Africa... end of story

 

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