Author Topic: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?  (Read 25596 times)

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Offline 7ayruta

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Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« on: June 14, 2011, 04:50:43 PM »
So I've been thinking for a while that we actually lack common knowledge in our very own language (or.. I atleast do). We use many foreign words for colors, animals, body-parts etc.

I wanted people to help me Build up a list of the names of the worlds countries because we mostly use Arabic names for countries. I have no clue for countries other than: Ator/Ashur, Yawaan (Greece), Surya (this is actually our own name lol) ... I hope you will make the list longer!

I might create a world map with Aramaic names for countries when we have enough :)

I question of mine would be: Do you think it is okay to translate the meanings of countries to Aramaic or should we simply just transcribe the names of countries such as "The Vatican?"

lookin' forward to this!  :)


ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2011, 05:36:54 PM »
Egypt = ܡܶܨܪܝܢ

Israel = Isroyel

Jordan = Yurdnon / ܝܽܘܪܕܢܳܢ

China = ܨܺܝܢ


I think for most of the countries, we just should write them in aramaic and keep the name but for example countries like south africa, united states should be translated.

But I'm surprised that a map in aramaic don't exist already  :blink: What a shame!!!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 05:45:34 PM by AlexSuryoyo »
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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 09:55:28 PM »
Egypt = ܡܶܨܪܝܢ

Israel = Isroyel

Jordan = Yurdnon / ܝܽܘܪܕܢܳܢ

China = ܨܺܝܢ


I think for most of the countries, we just should write them in aramaic and keep the name but for example countries like south africa, united states should be translated.

But I'm surprised that a map in aramaic don't exist already  :blink: What a shame!!!
Russia ܪܘܣ roos
Mexico ܡܟ݂ܝܟܐ mekheeka
Spain ܫܦ݁ܢ shafan
Germany ܐܫܟ݂ܢܙ ashkhenaz (Hebrew word for Germany)
Italy ܐܝܛܠܝܐ eeTalya
India ܗܢܕ hind
Greece ܝܘܢ yawan
Ethiopia ܟܢܥܢ kana'an
Libya ܠܘܒܐ loowe/loove
Persia ܦܪܣ fars
Cyprus ܩܘܦܪܘܣ qupros
Arabia ܒܝܬ ܥܪܒ beth 'arab
Macedonia ܡܩܕܘܢ maqethhwan
Bosnia and Herzegovina ܒܝܬ ܒܘܣܢܐ beth bosna
Afghanistan ܒܝܬ ܐܦ݁ܓ݂ܢ beth afghan
Australia ܒܝܬ ܬܝܡܢܐ beth temna
France ܢܘܚܪܝܢ nokhreen
Japan ܢܦ݁ܢ nafan
Philippines ܒܝܬ ܦ݁ܝܠܝܦܘܣ beth peeleepos
UK ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܚܘܝܕܐ malkoota d-khooyada
and Sweden ܣܘܝܕ swed
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 09:59:38 PM by mrzurnaci »

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2011, 09:55:28 PM »

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 07:17:59 AM »
Egypt = ܡܶܨܪܝܢ

Israel = Isroyel

Jordan = Yurdnon / ܝܽܘܪܕܢܳܢ

China = ܨܺܝܢ


I think for most of the countries, we just should write them in aramaic and keep the name but for example countries like south africa, united states should be translated.

But I'm surprised that a map in aramaic don't exist already  :blink: What a shame!!!

Why only names such as "South Africa" etc. ? Every land as a meaning even though it's not in English lol :) Take Israel (or Yisrael)... It litterally means "He is Saved by God." Now should we translate such a name into Aramaic or just transcribe it?

Also, you West-Assyrian speakers say "o/å" instead of the "aa" so it would be best if you could write it in both the original "aa" and in the West-Assyrian "o/å" :D



Russia ܪܘܣ roos
Mexico ܡܟ݂ܝܟܐ mekheeka
Spain ܫܦ݁ܢ shafan
Germany ܐܫܟ݂ܢܙ ashkhenaz (Hebrew word for Germany)
Italy ܐܝܛܠܝܐ eeTalya
India ܗܢܕ hind
Greece ܝܘܢ yawan
Ethiopia ܟܢܥܢ kana'an
Libya ܠܘܒܐ loowe/loove
Persia ܦܪܣ fars
Cyprus ܩܘܦܪܘܣ qupros
Arabia ܒܝܬ ܥܪܒ beth 'arab
Macedonia ܡܩܕܘܢ maqethhwan
Bosnia and Herzegovina ܒܝܬ ܒܘܣܢܐ beth bosna
Afghanistan ܒܝܬ ܐܦ݁ܓ݂ܢ beth afghan
Australia ܒܝܬ ܬܝܡܢܐ beth temna
France ܢܘܚܪܝܢ nokhreen
Japan ܢܦ݁ܢ nafan
Philippines ܒܝܬ ܦ݁ܝܠܝܦܘܣ beth peeleepos
UK ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܚܘܝܕܐ malkoota d-khooyada
and Sweden ܣܘܝܕ swed

I kinda doubt many of those names. Did you make some of them up by yourself? Because you translated "United Kingdom" into "Kingdom of Unity."
Also why is France "Nokhreen" and not "Beyt Frankaye?" Because the word "France" comes from the kingdom that there once was where the Franks lived (mainly Germany and France). The name "Sweed" is Arabic if I'm not mistaken :)  So what is your source for these names?
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 08:26:49 AM »
Why only names such as "South Africa" etc. ? Every land as a meaning even though it's not in English lol :) Take Israel (or Yisrael)... It litterally means "He is Saved by God." Now should we translate such a name into Aramaic or just transcribe it?

Also, you West-Assyrian speakers say "o/å" instead of the "aa" so it would be best if you could write it in both the original "aa" and in the West-Assyrian "o/å" :D


Finally I think that keep all the name and write them in aramaic is better (except for those who already exist originally like egypt, greece,...) because if you create them, all the names will be new and completely different from other languages, it will be more difficult to learn them and everybody will continue to use the names in other languages like fransa, allmagna, hollanda,... What do you think?

About the o/aa, if you don't create new names of countries, I think the problem of the o/aa is not anymore a problem, you just write them in aramaic  (we don't say allmagno, franso, hollando lool).
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 08:29:34 AM by AlexSuryoyo »
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Offline shekwanta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 10:20:43 AM »
THIS is a great topic!!!!  :clap:  :blush2:
unfortunately i dont know any of these cause we usually use the arabic words!   (seen, roosya...)

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 10:32:07 AM »
Russia ܪܘܣ roos
Mexico ܡܟ݂ܝܟܐ mekheeka
Spain ܫܦ݁ܢ shafan
Germany ܐܫܟ݂ܢܙ ashkhenaz (Hebrew word for Germany)
India ܗܢܕ hindGreece ܝܘܢ yawan
Ethiopia ܟܢܥܢ kana'an
Libya ܠܘܒܐ loowe/loove
Persia ܦܪܣ fars
Macedonia ܡܩܕܘܢ maqethhwan
Australia ܒܝܬ ܬܝܡܢܐ beth temna
France ܢܘܚܪܝܢ nokhreen
Japan ܢܦ݁ܢ nafan
Philippines ܒܝܬ ܦ݁ܝܠܝܦܘܣ beth peeleepos
UK ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܚܘܝܕܐ malkoota d-khooyada
omg this is AMAZING! .....had no idea these places had names!    (am gonna start saying i live in ashkenaz ;) )

only....india (hind) r u sure its hind!...... we call it hindestan!!  :confused:   

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 10:32:45 AM »
I kinda doubt many of those names. Did you make some of them up by yourself? Because you translated "United Kingdom" into "Kingdom of Unity."
Also why is France "Nokhreen" and not "Beyt Frankaye?" Because the word "France" comes from the kingdom that there once was where the Franks lived (mainly Germany and France). The name "Sweed" is Arabic if I'm not mistaken :)  So what is your source for these names?

France according to etymology means foreigner
but yea bet frankaye, I should translating not UK but Great Britain I guess to give a beter translation

ܒܝܬ ܦ݁ܪܢܟܝ̈ܐ for france and for britain would be ܒܝܬ ܦܪܬܢܐ bet pritana
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 10:34:23 AM by mrzurnaci »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 10:35:58 AM »
omg this is AMAZING! .....had no idea these places had names!    (am gonna start saying i live in ashkenaz ;) )

only....india (hind) r u sure its hind!...... we call it hindestan!!  :confused:   

bet hind, -stan is Iranic for "land of", and the -ia at the end is Latin/Greek I think for land

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 10:42:52 AM »
bet hind, -stan is Iranic for "land of", and the -ia at the end is Latin/Greek I think for land
OH!  :blink:   well, i dont know!     but i dont speak the language of urmia (oormejnaye)
and yes..we use hindestan to say 'for example'....  a person came from i dont know where    (like a curse word!  almost!)

and i also believe that the word fars is arabic!  :blink:

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 11:01:59 AM »
and i also believe that the word fars is arabic!  :blink:

how? we met the Persians before the Arabs

Akkadian Parsu, Akkadian didnt have F or 3yin, or Heth sound consonants, which is strikingly familiar to Eastern Aramaic Dialect in the fact that we don't use F sound, we lost 3ayin's sound, and merged Heth with Kaph Rakikhta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 11:06:34 AM »
Great thread, great job guys!

Everytime I see one of these threads, I feel so bad and mad for misplacing my 'Bahra" Assyrian - Arabic Dictionary' which I bought from AssyrianMarket.com some 7 years ago. But as of two years ago, it just disapparead and not sure if someone took it from my house and never returned it or what...

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Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2011, 02:27:18 PM »
how? we met the Persians before the Arabs

Akkadian Parsu, Akkadian didnt have F or 3yin, or Heth sound consonants, which is strikingly familiar to Eastern Aramaic Dialect in the fact that we don't use F sound, we lost 3ayin's sound, and merged Heth with Kaph Rakikhta

Uhm... what are you talking about? Eastern-Aramaic covers all dialects from about Syria to West-Iran to Kuwait. Meaning that the Suryoyo and Chaldean are Eastern too. What I guess you're trying to say is that the Eastern Syriac dialect is close to the Akkadian. We even have dialects such as the Mandean under the Eastern Aramaic dialect-group.

Again what is your source for the names of those countries because I believe that many of them are wrong, no offense :)
ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 02:58:02 AM »
Well for "America" we say emreeka (ܐܡܪܝܟܐ), American emreekan (ܐܡܪܝܟܢ) or emreekaya (ܐܡܪܝܟܝܐ). That's how my family says them. I don't know if there is any Arabic influence there, I think they just adopted the words from English. Some of the other country names they don't alter at all.

Most of my family members do not speak Arabic (we only understand Sureth and English) and any Arabic we used was borrowed long ago.

Some other ones:
Iraq - eeraq (ܥܐܪܩ)
Iran - eeran (ܥܐܪܢ) [sp?]
Canada - kanada (ܩܢܕܐ) [sp?]
Spaniard? Spanish speaking person - espanaya (ܐܣܦܢܝܐ) [I think this one is how I heard it, I don't know if it's relevant here though]
Britain breeTanya (ܒܪܝܛܢܝܐ) [Arb.]

The ones I've listed are how I have heard them said by family or members of the community.

7ayruta, do you want names that are common, used, and transliterated with Sureth influence or do you want to translate each countries name (based off the actually meaning) literally into Sureth?

I believe the former is better because that's how every other countries does it (at least the major ones). These are proper nouns not general nouns. If all proper nouns were translated, that would be like calling someone "Emmanuel" in Sureth then when speaking English calling that same person "God is with us" and no one does that, it would be odd to do that. Although I think there can be exceptions if they make more sense (like if every country had a different name for one of the countries).

So I believe transliterating country names is the best way to go, not translating.

I do agree with properly translating things like "-stan" with Sureth equivalents but countries without things like that I think should just be transliterated unless their is a good reason to translate. Otherwise, it can be confusing if the meanings are too general.

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 08:35:03 AM »
Quote
7ayruta, do you want names that are common, used, and transliterated with Sureth influence or do you want to translate each countries name (based off the actually meaning) literally into Sureth?

I believe the former is better because that's how every other countries does it (at least the major ones). These are proper nouns not general nouns. If all proper nouns were translated, that would be like calling someone "Emmanuel" in Sureth then when speaking English calling that same person "God is with us" and no one does that, it would be odd to do that. Although I think there can be exceptions if they make more sense (like if every country had a different name for one of the countries).

So I believe transliterating country names is the best way to go, not translating.

I do agree with properly translating things like "-stan" with Sureth equivalents but countries without things like that I think should just be transliterated unless their is a good reason to translate. Otherwise, it can be confusing if the meanings are too general.

I want the most correct names. That means that I want the names of countries that have already been named in early times and that would probably mean the ME.
Yes You're right. Not everything should be translated because it would get all messed up and weird + nobody does that. However, I believe that it should be a mix  translation and translitteration :) What do you think we should translate "United States of America" into? mxaydhe 'uxdane d-Amreeka?

So to sum it up: I want the already given Aramaic names of countries and for countries that were not known to our people back then, we transcribe AND translate names  :)
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 12:21:39 PM »
For Europe they say oruppa (ܐܘܪܘܦܐ). I know that's a continent and not a country and I don't know it's source.

I want the most correct names. That means that I want the names of countries that have already been named in early times and that would probably mean the ME.
Yes You're right. Not everything should be translated because it would get all messed up and weird + nobody does that. However, I believe that it should be a mix  translation and translitteration :) What do you think we should translate "United States of America" into? mxaydhe 'uxdane d-Amreeka?

So to sum it up: I want the already given Aramaic names of countries and for countries that were not known to our people back then, we transcribe AND translate names  :)

Well, to transcribe and translate new countries, we need to follow how Classical Syriac handled names of older countries (or create a new system) and decide on what other rules to follow.

For instance, if following the transliteration rules "America" should be amereqa (or something like that) and Canada should be qanada because the "k" sound is translitered as qop. Also I don't know if there is a "vowel-structure" to follow also.

I remember reading a discussion at the Aramaic Wiki on this exact subject. Most people say emreeka and kanada so they were trying to decide if they should spell the names phonetically or follow the Classical way of borrowing and transliterating "k" to qop, "t" to Teth, etc. I think they decided to spell according to Classical rules although maybe they still pronounce them with the original sounds.

For United States of America they have athrawatha mxaydhe d'emreeqa (ܐܬܪܘܬܐ ܡܚܝܕܐ ܕܐܡܪܝܩܐ):
http://arc.wikipedia.org/wiki/ܐܬܪܘܬܐ_ܡܚܝܕܐ_ܕܐܡܪܝܩܐ

Is ܡܚܝܕܐ a varation of makhdhadhe (ܡܚܕܕܐ) meaning "together?" And is it mxaydhe (like you wrote it) or maxyadhe?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 12:38:31 PM by dawidh »

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2011, 12:45:49 PM »
I want the most correct names. That means that I want the names of countries that have already been named in early times and that would probably mean the ME.
Yes You're right. Not everything should be translated because it would get all messed up and weird + nobody does that. However, I believe that it should be a mix  translation and translitteration :) What do you think we should translate "United States of America" into? mxaydhe 'uxdane d-Amreeka?

So to sum it up: I want the already given Aramaic names of countries and for countries that were not known to our people back then, we transcribe AND translate names  :)

I think it's a very good compromise  :)


For United States of America like david and wikipedia, I would say athrawatha/athrawotho mhaydhe d'emreeqa - ܐܬܪܘܬܐ ܡܚܝܕܐ ܕܐܡܪܝܩܐ.

For europe, I don't know if it's in aramaic but in west syriac, we also say urifi - ܐܘܪܝܦܝ
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 12:47:53 PM by AlexSuryoyo »
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Offline ashuraya007

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 01:15:12 PM »
how? we met the Persians before the Arabs

Akkadian Parsu, Akkadian didnt have F or 3yin, or Heth sound consonants, which is strikingly familiar to Eastern Aramaic Dialect in the fact that we don't use F sound, we lost 3ayin's sound, and merged Heth with Kaph Rakikhta


Like my Grandmother she doesnt say franca she says pransa. A true akkadian dialect.  :loool:

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 02:09:34 PM »
Quote
Well, to transcribe and translate new countries, we need to follow how Classical Syriac handled names of older countries (or create a new system) and decide on what other rules to follow.

We should follow the rules of the classical language, imo. My idea of this is to create something all dialects could enjoy and not only one tribe/dialect.

However we have a problem with spirantizaion because how do we transcribe countries such as Vietnam? Spirantized letters don't use to be at the beginning of a word and letters are also not spirantized when they are doubled (you know as in "love" (xuba) where the B is doubled and therefore is not "xuva"). Should then just do it anyways and spirantize the B so it becomes a V?
Another thing is ... how would we pronounce Vietnam? I'm excited to see your opinion :)

Quote
Is ܡܚܝܕܐ a varation of makhdhadhe (ܡܚܕܕܐ) meaning "together?" And is it mxaydhe (like you wrote it) or maxyadhe?

It is mxaydhe as I wrote it. Well, I don't think that it's a variation of it because both of the words are from the root X-D (one). I could be wrong though  :)


I think it's a very good compromise  :)


For United States of America like david and wikipedia, I would say athrawatha/athrawotho mhaydhe d'emreeqa - ܐܬܪܘܬܐ ܡܚܝܕܐ ܕܐܡܪܝܩܐ.

For europe, I don't know if it's in aramaic but in west syriac, we also say urifi - ܐܘܪܝܦܝ

Yea it's pretty fair :)

Well, I think that 2oropa/2eropa (europe) is the closest we get to the original :)
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Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 02:32:29 PM »
Here are the World's countries. Give a shot and translate what you can :) In the end I will sum it all up... I have a feeling that this will be a long thread and lots of work if people are willing to take it serious :)

   Afghanistan
   Akrotiri
   Albania
   Algeria
   American Samoa
   Andorra
   Angola
   Anguilla
   Antarctica
   Antigua and Barbuda
   Argentina
   Armenia
   Aruba
   Ashmore and Cartier Islands
   Assyria
   Australia
   Austria
   Azerbaijan
   Bahamas, The
   Bahrain
   Bangladesh
   Barbados
   Bassas da India
   Belarus
   Belgium
   Belize
   Benin
   Bermuda
   Bhutan
   Bolivia
   Bosnia and Herzegovina
   Botswana
   Bouvet Island
   Brazil
   British Indian Ocean Territory
   British Virgin Islands
   Brunei
   Bulgaria
   Burkina Faso
   Burma
   Burundi
   Cambodia
   Cameroon
   Canada
   Cape Verde
   Cayman Islands
   Central African Republic
   Chad
   Chechnya
   Chile
   China
   Christmas Island
   Clipperton Island
   Cocos (Keeling) Islands
   Colombia
   Comoros
   Congo, Democratic Republic of the
   Congo, Republic of the
   Cook Islands
   Coral Sea Islands
   Costa Rica
   Cote d'Ivoire
   Croatia
   Cuba
   Cyprus
   Czech Republic
   Denmark
   Dhekelia
   Djibouti
   Dominica
   Dominican Republic
   Ecuador
   Egypt
   El Salvador
   Equatorial Guinea
   Eritrea
   Estonia
   Ethiopia
   Europa Island
   Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)
   Faroe Islands
   Fiji
   Finland
   France
   French Guiana
   French Polynesia
   French Southern and Antarctic Lands
   Gabon
   Gambia
   Georgia
   Germany
   Ghana
   Gibraltar
   Glorioso Islands
   Greece
   Greenland
   Grenada
   Guadeloupe
   Guam
   Guatemala
   Guernsey
   Guinea
   Guinea-Bissau
   Guyana
   Haiti
   Heard Island and McDonald Islands
   Holy See (Vatican City)
   Honduras
   Hong Kong
   Hungary
   Iceland
   India
   Indonesia
   Iran
   Iraq
   Ireland
   Isle of Man
   Israel
   Italy
   Jamaica
   Jan Mayen
   Japan
   Jersey
   Jordan
   Juan de Nova Island
   Kazakhstan
   Kenya
   Kiribati
   Korea, North
   Korea, South
   Kuwait
   Kyrgyzstan
   Laos
   Latvia
   Lebanon
   Lesotho
   Liberia
   Libya
   Liechtenstein
   Lithuania
   Luxembourg
   Macau
   Macedonia
   Madagascar
   Malawi
   Malaysia
   Maldives
   Mali
   Malta
   Marshall Islands
   Martinique
   Mauritania
   Mauritius
   Mayotte
   Mexico
   Micronesia, Federated States of
   Moldova
   Monaco
   Mongolia
   Montserrat
   Morocco
   Mozambique
   Namibia
   Nauru
   Navassa Island
   Nepal
   Netherlands
   Netherlands Antilles
   New Caledonia
   New Zealand
   Nicaragua
   Niger
   Nigeria
   Niue
   Norfolk Island
   Northern Mariana Islands
   Norway
   Oman
   Pakistan
   Palau
   Palestine
   Panama
   Papua New Guinea
   Paracel Islands
   Paraguay
   Peru
   Philippines
   Pitcairn Islands
   Poland
   Portugal
   Puerto Rico
   Qatar
   Reunion
   Romania
   Russia
   Rwanda
   Saint Helena
   Saint Kitts and Nevis
   Saint Lucia
   Saint Pierre and Miquelon
   Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
   Samoa
   San Marino
   Sao Tome and Principe
   Saudi Arabia
   Senegal
   Serbia and Montenegro
   Seychelles
   Sierra Leone
   Singapore
   Slovakia
   Slovenia
   Solomon Islands
   Somalia
   South Africa
   South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
   Spain
   Spratly Islands
   Sri Lanka
   Sudan
   Suriname
   Svalbard
   Swaziland
   Sweden
   Switzerland
   Syria
   Taiwan
   Tajikistan
   Tanzania
   Thailand
   Timor-Leste
   Togo
   Tokelau
   Tonga
   Trinidad and Tobago
   Tromelin Island
   Tunisia
   Turkey
   Turkmenistan
   Turks and Caicos Islands
   Tuvalu
   Uganda
   Ukraine
   United Arab Emirates
   United Kingdom
   United States
   Uruguay
   Uzbekistan
   Vanuatu
   Venezuela
   Vietnam
   Virgin Islands
   Wake Island
   Wallis and Futuna
   Western Sahara
   Yemen
   Zambia
   Zimbabwe
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 04:16:45 PM by 7ayruta »
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Offline shekwanta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2011, 03:40:09 PM »

Like my Grandmother she doesnt say franca she says pransa. A true akkadian dialect.  :loool:
just like my mom!  :blink:  she also says 'pransa' is the right word for france!  :blink:

Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2011, 04:03:09 PM »
just like my mom!  :blink:  she also says 'pransa' is the right word for france!  :blink:

Originally, from what I have learned at the church, all the ܦ in the proper names were pronounced p and not f like nowadays: pawlos and not fawlos, petrus and not fetrus, ... so maybe it's why your grandmothers/mothers still say it that way. But I have to say it, I like this p pronounciation, so bad we dont pronounce the p anymore :p
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2011, 04:56:24 PM »
We should follow the rules of the classical language, imo. My idea of this is to create something all dialects could enjoy and not only one tribe/dialect.

However we have a problem with spirantizaion because how do we transcribe countries such as Vietnam? Spirantized letters don't use to be at the beginning of a word and letters are also not spirantized when they are doubled (you know as in "love" (xuba) where the B is doubled and therefore is not "xuva"). Should then just do it anyways and spirantize the B so it becomes a V?
Another thing is ... how would we pronounce Vietnam? I'm excited to see your opinion :)

I wouldn't worry about spirantization. It isn't used by most modern dialects, if any. In my dialect if you were to try and pronounce some of the words in a "classical" way you would be saying a different word. I know this is because of borrowing and outside influence but I actually prefer it to spirantization because it enriches the language.

I don't know how Classical Syriac treated all country names, you would have to find an example of a country name that was translated and you would expect spirantization in it. Now that I think of it, that's probably why (or one of the reasons) they translated "k" to qop, "t" to Teth, "g" to yodh, etc. It gets rid of the problem of worrying about spirantization by changing letters to one's without spirantization.

I think the best thing to do is find a example of another country that starts with "v" (and ones for "dh" and "f") and has a classical translation already. If there isn't one, then the other thing most do is place a tilde or a dot beneath foreign words.

It is mxaydhe as I wrote it. Well, I don't think that it's a variation of it because both of the words are from the root X-D (one). I could be wrong though  :)

Okay, thank you. I tried looking it up (in that construction) and didn't find anything. I haven't heard it said like that. Although, for the the verb (using "he will unite") I think may dialect says zee Hayid (not xayid like other dialects) yet we say xa for "one."

What construction is mxayde in? It looks like the modern perfect tense/classical passive participle (like kheela, peesha, mshudra) except there is no "u" like other verbs in that construction.

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2011, 06:29:48 PM »
Originally, from what I have learned at the church, all the ܦ in the proper names were pronounced p and not f like nowadays: pawlos and not fawlos, petrus and not fetrus, ... so maybe it's why your grandmothers/mothers still say it that way. But I have to say it, I like this p pronounciation, so bad we dont pronounce the p anymore :p
i dont get it!  :blink:       :mrgreen:




i didnt even know that these names had an F sound (originally) and not the P sound!

lol..no worries! u can always call it Pransa!..or Nokhreen! ;)    
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 06:31:30 PM by shekwanta »

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2011, 07:02:31 PM »
Quote
I wouldn't worry about spirantization. It isn't used by most modern dialects, if any. In my dialect if you were to try and pronounce some of the words in a "classical" way you would be saying a different word. I know this is because of borrowing and outside influence but I actually prefer it to spirantization because it enriches the language.


Well, if we're going to stick to the classical spellings then spirantization is a must.

Quote
I think the best thing to do is find a example of another country that starts with "v" (and ones for "dh" and "f") and has a classical translation already.


I don't think there is such thing. If there was we would've noticed it long ago like the changing of Qof, 6eth and Gammal. However, I did come up with a solution. The Hebrew language/alphabet has the exact same problem as we do. So i looked at their spelling of "Vietnam" and this is how they spell it: וייטנאם
If you are to spell that pronounciation in Syriac then it would be: ܘܝܝܛܢܡ ... Do you think that would be a solution?

Quote
Okay, thank you. I tried looking it up (in that construction) and didn't find anything. I haven't heard it said like that. Although, for the the verb (using "he will unite") I think may dialect says zee Hayid (not xayid like other dialects) yet we say xa for "one."

What construction is mxayde in? It looks like the modern perfect tense/classical passive participle (like kheela, peesha, mshudra) except there is no "u" like other verbs in that construction.


I must admit that I looked the meaning up in this lousy dictionary "Lishani" .... http://lishani.com/syriac.php?q=%DC%A1%DC%9A%DC%B2%DC%9D%DC%95%DC%BC%DC%B5%DC%90
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2011, 07:14:23 PM »
i dont get it!  :blink:       :mrgreen:




i didnt even know that these names had an F sound (originally) and not the P sound!

lol..no worries! u can always call it Pransa!..or Nokhreen! ;)    

What I meant is that in western syriac, we didnt pronounce the 'p' anymore, we pronouce them 'f' like the names fawlos (paul) or fetros (peter), we pronounced them pawlos and petros a long time ago if I'm not wrong but I dont know which form is used in madenkhaya... So it's normal to say pranca and not franca lool

I'm maybe wrong because my knowledge in leshana 'ateeqa is limited, so if someone has something to add or correct, it will be great  :)
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 07:19:16 PM »

I don't think there is such thing. If there was we would've noticed it long ago like the changing of Qof, 6eth and Gammal. However, I did come up with a solution. The Hebrew language/alphabet has the exact same problem as we do. So i looked at their spelling of "Vietnam" and this is how they spell it: וייטנאם
If you are to spell that pronounciation in Syriac then it would be: ܘܝܝܛܢܡ ... Do you think that would be a solution?


Very good idea, personally I would write vietnam like this ܘܝܬܢܡ with a taw and why not use the  ܒ for the sound v, ܒ can be b or v, no??
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 10:00:53 PM »
Very good idea, personally I would write vietnam like this ܘܝܬܢܡ with a taw and why not use the  ܒ for the sound v, ܒ can be b or v, no??

He wrote Teth because that's the old way of transliterating words into Classical Syriac. Any "t" becomes Teth in spelling. I believe it is a way to get around spirantization.

I believe 7ayruta wants to follow the old rules for the letters and ܒܓܕܟܦܬ can't be soft at the beginning of word if you are spelling classically. So beth will never be "v" at the beginning of a word, same problem with peh as "f." Then there is the problem of hard letters in the middle of words. Which makes transliterating purely into Classical Syriac difficult.

I don't think there is such thing. If there was we would've noticed it long ago like the changing of Qof, 6eth and Gammal. However, I did come up with a solution. The Hebrew language/alphabet has the exact same problem as we do. So i looked at their spelling of "Vietnam" and this is how they spell it: וייטנאם
If you are to spell that pronounciation in Syriac then it would be: ܘܝܝܛܢܡ ... Do you think that would be a solution?

How does Arabic handle "v?" Don't they use "p"? I think classically speaking, waw works for "v." If you write it in a modern sense, peh with a dot below (or half circle too I think) can be "v" for English words or they use beth with a tilda or hamza beneath for "v."

Lets make list of them:
"p" becomes beth (ܒܝܬ) and remains as peh at the beginning of a word?
"t" becomes Teth (ܛܝܬ)
"g" becomes yodh (ܝܘܕ)
"k" becomes qop (ܩܘܦ)
"d" becomes ???
"v" becomes ???
"f" remains peh (ܦܐ)?
"b" remains beth (ܒܝܬ) at the beginning and becomes/remains ??? when in spirantization spot?
"ch" becomes Sade (ܨܕܐ)?
"kh" becomes ???
"dh" becomes ???

I just remembered that "p" becomes beth, although I don't know if that is Arabic influence. You can see it in the word for "Japan" (ܝܒܢ) but I think that's modern so I don't how you would spell it classically because wouldn't the beth become "v" there? Also doesn't "ch" become Sade like for China, ܨܝܢ?

I understand some of the sounds in the list might not be encountered, I listed them just to be thorough.

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2011, 07:40:45 AM »
Quote
How does Arabic handle "v?" Don't they use "p"?

The Arabic language has actually lost the proto-semitic P-sound. The F-sound has made a complete substitution with the P-sound in Arabic. Arabs, therefore, use the letter F to write the letter V.

Quote
Lets make list of them:
"p" becomes beth (ܒܝܬ) and remains as peh at the beginning of a word? This is of Arabic influence because they lack the letter P. Haven't you heard Arabs say "Bibzi" instead of "Pepsi"  :lol:

"t" becomes Teth (ܛܝܬ)

"g" becomes yodh (ܝܘܕ)

"k" becomes qop (ܩܘܦ)

"d" becomes ???

"v" becomes ??? I think it, just, becomes a Waw

"f" remains peh (ܦܐ)? We don't have this letter in ur alphabet, so yes it becomes P.

"b" remains beth (ܒܝܬ) at the beginning and becomes/remains ??? when in spirantization spot? The ancient Babylon is actually pronounced Bavel in Aramaic. Maybe this is a help, no?

"ch" becomes Sade (ܨܕܐ)? I believe that it can become Sheen, aswell. Or maybe that is only in Arabic?

"kh" becomes ??? KH becomes xeth.

"dh" becomes ??? I am not sure. However, Arabic in many ways is more archaic than Sureth is and when they have a word with the letter DH we turn it into Dallath fx. dhahab (DH-H-B) vs. Dahva (D-H-B) 


Quote
I just remembered that "p" becomes beth, although I don't know if that is Arabic influence. You can see it in the word for "Japan" (ܝܒܢ) but I think that's modern so I don't how you would spell it classically because wouldn't the beth become "v" there? Also doesn't "ch" become Sade like for China, ܨܝܢ?

Japan, in Hebrew, is יפן (Yapan) and since our cases are pretty identical I believe it is fair to "copy" some of their spellings making ours ܝܦܢ. Now I know that the P should be spirantized into F. However, I think we should make exceptions. I know that Arabic makes exceptions for city names. Take for example the Morrocan city Agadir. The Arabs lack the letter G and therefore right the city as Akadir, however, they put a dash above the K which turns it into G (this is not an official Arabic letter, you see).

EDIT: Hebrew also makes exceptions because if not they would be saying "Yafan" and not "Yapan" because they have spirantization to.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:50:06 AM by 7ayruta »
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2011, 03:45:22 PM »
The Arabic language has actually lost the proto-semitic P-sound. The F-sound has made a complete substitution with the P-sound in Arabic. Arabs, therefore, use the letter F to write the letter V.

My mistake, I meant "f" faa.

Lets make list of them:
"p" becomes beth (ܒܝܬ) and remains as peh at the beginning of a word? This is of Arabic influence because they lack the letter P. Haven't you heard Arabs say "Bibzi" instead of "Pepsi"  

"t" becomes Teth (ܛܝܬ)

"g" becomes yodh (ܝܘܕ)

"k" becomes qop (ܩܘܦ)

"d" becomes ???

"v" becomes ??? I think it, just, becomes a Waw

"f" remains peh (ܦܐ)? We don't have this letter in ur alphabet, so yes it becomes P.

"b" remains beth (ܒܝܬ) at the beginning and becomes/remains ??? when in spirantization spot? The ancient Babylon is actually pronounced Bavel in Aramaic. Maybe this is a help, no?

"ch" becomes Sade (ܨܕܐ)? I believe that it can become Sheen, aswell. Or maybe that is only in Arabic?

"kh" becomes ??? KH becomes xeth.

"dh" becomes ??? I am not sure. However, Arabic in many ways is more archaic than Sureth is and when they have a word with the letter DH we turn it into Dallath fx. dhahab (DH-H-B) vs. Dahva (D-H-B)

Japan, in Hebrew, is יפן (Yapan) and since our cases are pretty identical I believe it is fair to "copy" some of their spellings making ours ܝܦܢ. Now I know that the P should be spirantized into F. However, I think we should make exceptions. I know that Arabic makes exceptions for city names. Take for example the Morrocan city Agadir. The Arabs lack the letter G and therefore right the city as Akadir, however, they put a dash above the K which turns it into G (this is not an official Arabic letter, you see).

EDIT: Hebrew also makes exceptions because if not they would be saying "Yafan" and not "Yapan" because they have spirantization to.

For "p," I kind of figured that was Arabic influence and we do have "f," it's peh. You can't think of peh as strictly a "f" or strictly a "p," it shares two sounds. You have to think of it as peh and know when it sounds like "p" or "f." This is the problem with transliterating into Classical Syriac, there will probably be quite a few exceptions because we don't have the specific sound we want for each letter if that sound isn't in the proper position.

Also, why does it matter if it is Yafan instead of Yapan? How come Bavel doesn't get that same exception? The only way to retain the originally sound is to write using the modern methods. Writing classically will result in some names being pronounced differently because of spirantization, unless we throw around a bunch of exceptions, in which case it's better to write in a modern sense ignoring the spirantization rules because you wouldn't be writing classically any more. Also isn't Yapan a modern Hebrew example? When we start making exceptions, it turns into memorizing and bunch of irregular words (in a classical setting).

So overall, what I was trying to do was start a list as a guideline (based off accepted methods) for transliterating.
Classical:
"b" and "v" we should use beth (ܒ), unless "v" is at the beginning, in which case it should be w (ܘ)?
"p" and "f" we should use peh (ܦ)?
"d" and "dh" we should use daleth (ܕ)?
"g" and "j" we should use yodh (ܝ)? What about "g" at the beginning of a word?
"gh" we should use gamel (ܓ)?
"t" we should use Teth (ܛ)? What about "t" at the beginning of a word?
"th" we should use taw (ܬ)?
"k" and "q"we should use qop (ܩ)? What about "k" at the beginning of a word?
"kh" we should use Heth (ܚ)?
"ch" we should use Sade (ܨ) or also sheen (ܫ)?
"r" we should use resh (ܪ)?
"s" or "z" we should use simkath (ܣ), Sade (ܨ), or zain (ܙ)?
"w" we should use waw (ܘ)?
"h" we should use heh (ܗ)?
"sh" we should use sheen (ܫ)?
"l" we should use lamadh (ܠ)?
"m" we should use meem (ܡ)?
"n" we should use noon (ܢ)?

Modern methods:
"v" uses veth (ܒ+tilda/hamza-below), veh (ܦ+dot/half circle-below [restricted to English words], Arb. method uses feh (ܦ) [as "f"]. Some just replace it with waw (ܘ). The original dot-below is also used (ܒ+dot-below).
"f" (ܦ+dot/half circle-below), already built in but modern peh has three sounds now ("p," "f," and "w." Four if you include "v").
"j" uses jamel (ܔ) or (ܓ+tilda/hamza-below)
"ch" uses chap (ܟ̃). Arb. method use sheen (ܫ)?
The rest of the letters can be marked to denote which sound because spirantization isn't used in the classically way in modern dialects. Although, "k," "t," and "g" are sometimes transliterated the classically way.

As far as Arabic letters Zaa, Daad and jim, there are garshuni Syriac Zeth (ܜ), Dade (ܨ+dot-above), and jamel (ܔ). Or I guess you could use the normal Teth (ܛ), Sade (ܨ) and gamel (ܓ) if you want to limit the exceptions as the garshuni letters aren't Classical.

What do you think? Also, whats wrong with saying ܒܝܛܡ (using the "b" sound) for "Vietnam? I just think were going out of our way to make exceptions when it sounds like your goal is to purely translate everything into Classical Syriac. Why are you trying to make Classical Syriac fit these words, instead of making the words fit Classical Syriac?

Also what about the letter "c" when it pronounced as "k" like in "Croatia?" Should that be qop or kap? Also what about English "x?" Most use kap+simkath (ܟ+ܣ).

The Arabic city example you gave, isn't that modern usage? I'm confused as to what you want to do. Writing and pronouncing modernly is much easier than classically regardless if you don't like the newer methods. Pure classical versions should not bend there sounds or give out exceptions. I prefer modern if the closest pronunciation is what's important or classical if there is no exceptions. Exceptions in classical is basically modern, it's breaking the system all over again.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 04:29:26 PM by dawidh »

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2011, 05:05:32 PM »
@ Dawidh

I got another idea. I think that we shouldn't follow the spirantization rules. It will get all messed up. Imo, We should be able to add dots whereever, it's necessary.

I won't use the Modern language to write in because that would mean that we would have to chose a dialect. What should it be? ... Urmia, Tyar, Asheeta, Tel keppe, Alqush? To choose between these dialects (and few others) would be discrimination against the Western Syriac dialects. We are all connected to the Classical.

Also, I don't think that you/we should stick to the written letters. We have to listen how words are pronounced. There is no difference between C/K/Q, X/KS etc. We therefore have to stick to pronounciation :)
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Offline dawidh

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2011, 05:07:25 AM »
@ Dawidh

I got another idea. I think that we shouldn't follow the spirantization rules. It will get all messed up. Imo, We should be able to add dots whereever, it's necessary.

I won't use the Modern language to write in because that would mean that we would have to chose a dialect. What should it be? ... Urmia, Tyar, Asheeta, Tel keppe, Alqush? To choose between these dialects (and few others) would be discrimination against the Western Syriac dialects. We are all connected to the Classical.

Also, I don't think that you/we should stick to the written letters. We have to listen how words are pronounced. There is no difference between C/K/Q, X/KS etc. We therefore have to stick to pronounciation :)

It's not discrimination against Western or other Eastern dialects. You can't translate words into every dialect the same way, if you translate Japan and retain the "p" then the word is still foreign to Western speakers because they would maybe want to change it to "f" because thats how they make it a native word, otherwise they are still borrowing, only from Eastern Syriac instead of English. What is needed is a standard dialect (new modern dialect or Classic Syriac are options) in addition to all the dialects that everyone can speak as a common language.

For classical, you have to not worry about making exceptions for sounds unless there are bunch words that overlap or it causes some other issue. This is why the spellings are more important that the original pronunciations of adopted words. You just need to know what sound the letter represents depending on the language and then use the Syriac letter designated for that sound, regardless if the sound matches exactly.

If you have a set rule for which Syriac letters represent which English letters (or Arabic letters, or sounds to be more general) then transliterating is not an issue and the words are to be pronounced according to Syriac rules. If peh is for both "p" and "f" then you use peh and pronounce "Japan" as Yafan (if the spirantization applies there). That's why Arabic says Yaban or whatever because they set rules for transliterating and translating. I don't see why it's so important to retain the "p" sound. Plus, then any person can read the word in their own dialect if they want also. Dialects that stictly use only "f" for peh can pronounce peh as "f" and other dialects that use "p" can pronounce it as "p." If a dialect use both sounds for a letter then that dialect would use the sound where it borrowed it from.

Like my dialect, we have many sounds foreign to Classical Syriac but I wouldn't consider foreign to my dialect anymore, they are accepted and used. If we borrow it from Classical Syriac and it's Yafan, we would say Yafan. If we borrow from Arabic, like we already do, we can say Yaban, or from English and say Yapan or Japan. There is no way we can perfectly satisfy each modern dialect.

I still think we should retain some of the practices of translating/transliterating regardless if it's modern or classical. Like the practice of "j" to yodh, which gives a word that Sureth touch. If you aren't going to use those practices then you are just borrowing and conjugating the word as necessary. You won't have to translate "Japan" it will still be pronounced Japan (because, my dialect at least, uses more sounds than Classical Syriac). You would only see it as native Sureth word when saying it in another form like "Japanese," which would be Japanaya.

Keeping those old practices are a good thing I believe. Modern would be Yapan (Eastern dialects, most likely), Classical Yafan (unless the spirantization rule doesn't apply here, in which it would also be Yapan).

I know it's a lot to read but deciding on a system will make translating much easier. This isn't even worrying about what language to borrow the words from, which it sounds will most likely be from the English pronunciations.

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2011, 06:22:58 PM »
@Dawidh

Well, the exception of spirantization of letters in transcribtions was to make it easier for people to use/remember. However, I belive that we should keep it too. So, here is what I think are some fair rules for the transcribtions of names (Remember to focus on pronounciation and not spelling before transcribing):

For letters that our language has
  • K/C/Q --> Qof
  • T --> Teth
  • M --> Meem
  • G --> Yudh or Gammal ?
  • H --> Heh
  • L --> Lammadh
  • S/C --> Simkath
  • W --> Waw
  • X --> Depends on pronounciation but would mostly be Kaf+Simkath
  • Z --> Zayn
  • R --> Resh
  • J (As in the name "Jamie") --> Gammal
  • D --> Dallath
  • N --> Noon
  • Q (As in Qof) --> Qof
  • Y/I/J --> Yudh
  • B --> Beyt
  • P --> Peh
  • Heth --> Heth
  • `Ayin --> `Ayin
  • Teth --> Teth
  • SH --> Sheen
  • ṣ --> ṣadheh

I'm a bit unsure about this one and would like to here your opinions. Here's the list with non-Aramaic sounds:
  • CH (As in Chechnya) --> Sheen
  • KH --> Heth
  • GH --> Gammal
  • TH --> Taw
  • DH --> Dallath
  • GH --> Gammal
  • KH --> Heth
  • F --> Peh
  • V --> Waw

There are more sounds from close languages as Hebrew and Arabic that we don't have. Even tons of more sounds that we do not have, from foreign languages. I think that we should just mark the Countries that we are unsure of and ask one another :) 

Now for the Spirantization. I am not an expert on this either, however, in another topic I spoke with Carlo about it. He said that the BGDHKPT-letters, generally, are spirantized when they come after a vowel and aren't doubbled (As when you add a Shaddah in Arabic).
That means that Words CAN'T be spirantized when they are at the beginning of a word. However, those are only the general rulees but that will also be the only thing we'll need for transcribing woreign words  :) This should be a great help for you who want to help but are a little unsure.

Do you think these rules sound fair without contradicting the Classical rules? If Yes then lets start on the names  :clap:
ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
ܚܪܘܬܐ ܠܐܬܘܪ ܟܒܝܫܬܐ  

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2011, 10:47:03 PM »
I'm a bit unsure about this one and would like to here your opinions. Here's the list with non-Aramaic sounds:
  • CH (As in Chechnya) --> Sheen
  • KH --> Heth
  • GH --> Gammal
  • TH --> Taw
  • DH --> Dallath
  • GH --> Gammal
  • KH --> Heth
  • F --> Peh
  • V --> Waw

  • TH
  • DH
  • GH
  • KH
  • F
  • V
are all Aramaic sounds.......[/list]

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Names of the worlds countries in Aramaic?
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2011, 08:00:51 AM »
    • TH
    • DH
    • GH
    • KH
    • F
    • V
    are all Aramaic sounds.......[/list]

    You have to understand me right. They do excist in our language but they do not excist as letters. They are SPIRANTIZED versions of letters and that means that you can't use them as you wish. You can only use them if the circumstances are right. Let's take Gaza as an example. It is pronounced "GHaza" but we can't really write a Gammal with a dot beneat because that would mean that we broke the spirantization rules. It would therefore be Gaza and not Ghaza. Another example would be Abu Dhabi. Same thing here... DH can't be at the beginning and is therefore a Dallath. Do you get the point, bro?  :)
    ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
    ܚܪܘܬܐ ܠܐܬܘܪ ܟܒܝܫܬܐ  

     

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