Author Topic: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?  (Read 20608 times)

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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2009, 11:51:12 PM »
Unknown_User...I agree that the Sumerians were probably J2, but I don't know if the Amorites had more of a demographic impact on Sumeria than they did on Assyria. Looking at the historical record, they seem to have infiltrated both areas quite extensively. They established a dynasty around Assur during the 1900's b.c. as well as founding a dynasty in Babylonia (Hammurabi was an Amorite). The Akkadians, when they did appear on the historical scene, were based somewhat to the north of the Sumerians but had an extensive presence in the Sumerian heartland which only became stronger as they came to dominate the region. Though they did have colonies in Assyria, I would expect a much stronger genetic impact on the Sumerian region. As for language, both of them spoke Akkadian, albeit different dialects of the language. Both of them switched to Aramaic at around the same time. There is another explanation for why the Assyrians have more J1. Several centuries prior to the birth of Muhammad, Arab tribes (mainly from modern day Yemen) had been moving into Syria and Iraq. One of these tribes was the Banu Lakhm, who established an Arab christian kingdom in modern day southern Iraq. They were nestorian Christians. It's possible that with the coming of Islam, some of these Arab Christians assimilated into the Assyrian community, adding more J1 to our gene pool.

"unknown" simply prefers the Northern migration and thinks Ashurians & Babylonians spoke a "dialect' of Akkadian, as if Akkadians were in Mesopotamia BEFORE any Ashurians.  The point is, I simply choose to see it the other way.  If Ninweh, Ashur, Calah/Nimrud and Arbil existed as full fledged cities since 5000 BC or earlier, then why can't we say that the Akkadians and Babylonians spoke a dialect of Ashurian?

My point is always this:  1.  We are Not "Semites" because it is a term based on a hebrew fairy tale.  Why listen to what Hebrews think of us when our own ancestors have already told and shown us who we were/are?! 

2.  Our Akkadian ancestors did NOT "probably", as they put it, come from the Arabian Penninsula and became builders of Empires over night.  This advancement of a people takes time.  I think there is so much more we don't yet know about our Ashurian ancestors and it is hastefull and misleading to assume anything yet.  We should simply accept the dates of the 1st cities that were built by our ancestors and take it from there.  Nitpicking about genes and migrations is stupid, pointless, and a waste of time.

3.  Our language is Not "Aramaic", Not "Akkadian", Not "Sumerian" but a mixture of all of these languages or dialects.  What did the Ashurians speak before any Sumerian or Akkadian conquered their lands?  Who knows, right?  However related or unrelated our ancestors' languages were, they eventually merged.  I choose to call our language Ashurian.  Sure, it has it's Sumerian, Akkadian, and Aramean influence, but what language is not influenced by others'?

In the end, we are who we FEEL we are, who we BELIEVE we are, and that's what's important.  My name, my culture, my language, my heritage, and my belief is Ashurian, and I don't have to justify that to anybody!

Cheers!
Alen Barsin

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 12:09:19 AM »
hehe...if you  are Assyrian and not that guy on stormfront, then I truly apologize.  You are spreading some good knowledge here and I appreciate it. basima  :)




gottttcchaaa....I'm really learning a lot.  As far as the R1 gene, before I even got into genetics, I've known through research that the "Cimmerians" lived on the borders of the Assyrian empire, and they were known for having red hair. 

Red hair is extremely common in Ashurians, and my theory is that since these Cimmerians occupied the same lands as Ashurians, who's to say that they weren't the same people.  Different tribes maybe?, but we still have tribes today, unfortunately!


(many assyrians with red hair!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Also mentions how Assyrians recruited them to fight AGAINST Armenians (Urartu).

Yes, and we called them Gamri/Gamru.  We still use this word today, and it means hardened/tough.  Gmeera also means perfect and complete.  Maybe they were another Ashurian tribe who were specialized in certain types of warfare?.

couple more ?s here

- have you heard of "Leuco-Syrians"? They are supposedly "White Syrians". Would these be the J2 the Akkadians mingled with (some Sumerians depicted with Blue eyes), or a foreign group? 

- as far as j1 and j2, how closely related are they?  I understand they are of the same color coding.  And, if J2 is in fact YOUNGER than J1 by 20,000 years, is it possible that J1 was in Mesopotamia first (again Sumerians, known as "black heads" FWIW), and then Syrids moved southward, i.e. from Anatolia?

So far, my only dispute is over the term "Arabid". While I realize its in reference to the Arab plate, yet and still, Akkadians/Assyrians etc, preceded the Arab term by thousands of years.  So basically, we are not "like Arabs", they would be "like us" if anything.  Akkadid maybe a better term (now im sounding lke the stormfront guy  :wavetowel:)


This is my argument too, since we/our ancestors predate any Arabic speaking peoples by thousands of years, shouldn't the term for J1 be Ashurid/Assyrid/Sumerid or something?  The whiteness in so many Ashurians is not so much because we're mixed, but it's due to the climate of northern Assyria/Syria/Anatolia.....  It is the kind of weather that affects our features to form a lighter skinned/eyed/haired appearance.  I don't know why is it that when people see white Ashurians they say "Oh they're mixed".  Can't the same be said about some Indian looking Ashurians, and if we are mixed, then what the hell is left with the original Ashurian look?  It's all stupid.  In Reality, we are all mixed with each other, but at one point, we developed common features, mixed or not, and THAT became the Ashurian feature of today, or anyone else's for that matter.

The Ashurian feature is that of a Caucasoid, regardless of the color of their skin.  We have Whites, Tanned, Olive Skinned people, but we still maintain something of the original Ashurian look from the past.


Cheers!


Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »
Alen, do you agree with this vid esp @ 0:22



Again, I too disagree with the "Semite" term, as well as "Arabid" for our genetic classification.  Our people seriously get no respect.  We are before the hudaye and arabaye yet they receive damn near all the precedence and get their own special terms  :(

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2009, 05:56:45 AM »
Alen, do you agree with this vid esp @ 0:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do2ajUup0AM

Again, I too disagree with the "Semite" term, as well as "Arabid" for our genetic classification.  Our people seriously get no respect.  We are before the hudaye and arabaye yet they receive damn near all the precedence and get their own special terms  :(



I honestly don't know what the agenda is with the "semitic" term, but some people are hellbent on making it the law!  Unbelievable!  Even when the author of this video KNOWS that there is nothing "Semitic" about the Ashurians/Assyrians, he continues to pimp this name.

The term "Semitic" comes from the son of Noah, "Shem" which outside the old testament, does NOT EXIST anywhere else!

This is a Bull**** term imposed on our people for the benefit of the same people who wrote the old testament, the ancient jews!

If anyone here believes in biblical writings, then they should also believe the world is 6000 yrs old!

PERIOD!
Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2009, 09:57:25 AM »
They would probably be even closer to Syrians had they been included in the study, but I don't think I remember seeing Syrians in the chart, looking at this chart:



This tells me that Assyrians are closer in blood to some of those Levant populations such as the Syrians and Palestinians (Which are the majority in Jordon), then we see that they are close to Caucasian populations which include Kurds, Georgians, Caspian groups, and the one that surprised me the most, Iraqi Arabs, I always thought Iraqi Arabs would be closer to those Gulf or Bedouin populations in blood, but I have a feeling the sample they got from Iraqi Arabs was from the ordinary Baghdadi families, had it been a little more south you would see different results.





So Unknown_user, what are your thoughts on this different genetic project/chart, and does it not conflict with the J1-Arabid claim?  If J1 is so prevalent among our population, and is an indicator of orginating from the "Arab plate", shouldn't we then be genetically closer to the Yeminite/Saudi/Bedouin group?   Hmmmmm  :hmmm:

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2009, 12:55:08 PM »

So Unknown_user, what are your thoughts on this different genetic project/chart, and does it not conflict with the J1-Arabid claim?  If J1 is so prevalent among our population, and is an indicator of orginating from the "Arab plate", shouldn't we then be genetically closer to the Yeminite/Saudi/Bedouin group?   Hmmmmm  :hmmm:

The populations in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman have remained relatively isolated from foreign admixture for the most part, J1's highest frequencies are detected in Yemen, but are generally found in very high frequencies throughout the Southern most portions of the Arabian Plate, which noticeably dissipates the further away you move North, West, and East. This does not greatly contrast with the genetic chart, as all of those groups are genetically related to each other, all the chart evinces is that the genetic distance between certain ethnic groups are more intimately related to the Assyrian population as opposed to the ones who are abroad from them.

Let me illustrate what I mean by giving you an analogy.

Basket #1 has 3 red apples & 2 lemons
Basket #2 has 3 green apples & 2 oranges
Basket #3 has 11 red apples & one strawberry
Basket #4 has 23 green apples & one banana

From this, we understand that Basket #1 and Basket #2 are equally proportionate and thus are quite agnate to one another, while the exact same fruit exist in Basket #3 and Basket #4 but in different amounts which makes it seem like Basket #3 and #4 are indubitably dissimilar to the other two baskets, which isn't the case at all.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:34:23 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2009, 06:43:54 PM »
hehe...if you  are Assyrian and not that guy on stormfront, then I truly apologize.  You are spreading some good knowledge here and I appreciate it. basima  :)

gottttcchaaa....I'm really learning a lot.  As far as the R1 gene, before I even got into genetics, I've known through research that the "Cimmerians" lived on the borders of the Assyrian empire, and they were known for having red hair.  (many assyrians with red hair!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Also mentions how Assyrians recruited them to fight AGAINST Armenians (Urartu).


It's all right, you'll have to excuse me for my astringent belligerence, it's just that having to constantly restate what I've already explained here coupled with false allegations about who I am as a user is what abraded me. I apologize. The Cimmerians are said to have originated in the Russian Steppes, north of the Black Sea, near the Caucasus Mountains or Mannae which is around Asia Minor. They're believed to have settled in Cappadocia after being defeated by the Lydian army, other than that their fate remains largely unknown. I am not very familiar with Cimmerian history or whether or not they settled in Assyria, if they did, I imagine that the genetic effect was insignificant. Assyria was once a Roman province, the occupation could be responsible for the genetic contribution of R1 in the Assyrian gene pool. Although, despite all of this, J is still undoubtly the primary component in the overall Assyrian gene pool.

J: 55.1%

G: 9.0%

L: 1.3%

T: 3.8%

R1: 30.8%




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- have you heard of "Leuco-Syrians"? They are supposedly "White Syrians". Would these be the J2 the Akkadians mingled with (some Sumerians depicted with Blue eyes), or a foreign group?


They sound familiar, weren't they the ones who inhabited Cappadocia? As for your question, I doubt it I'm confident that J2 was initially carried by Sumerians who subsequently spread it, and are ultimately responsible for it's distribution, of course if these Leuco-Syrians did in fact carry it, I'd have to know who the Modern Day descendants of these so-called Leuco-Syrians are, that is if there are any Modern Day descendants.

Quote
- as far as j1 and j2, how closely related are they?  I understand they are of the same color coding.  And, if J2 is in fact YOUNGER than J1 by 20,000 years, is it possible that J1 was in Mesopotamia first (again Sumerians, known as "black heads" FWIW), and then Syrids moved southward, i.e. from Anatolia?


The differences in relation between these subclades depends entirely on what the mutations of J1 and J2 are, for example, the J2b mutation is commonly found in the Balkans, Greece, Italy, South Asia, and in some Ashkenazi Jews. J2b is often associated with the Ancient Greeks. Likewise, some mutations of J1 may be more closely related to certain mutations of J1 or J2 than others. Such as the case with J1*. Some J1* is akin to some J2 varieties and other mutations of J1* have a closer connection to J1e. As for why the Sumerians referred to themselves as the "Black-headed people" has been speculated, there have been theories that they were originally Dravidian Indic peoples from the Indus Valley, but I doubt it, since J2 is only limited to the high-castes in India, mainly the Brahmins.

Also, the emergence of these subclades arose in separate regions, J2 originated in the Northern reaches of the Arabian Plate (Northern Iraq) and is linked to the development and expansion of agriculture in Mesopotamia. While J1 had more of a dry, humid evolution and is associated with the spread of Semitic speaking peoples and from this we can conclude that J1 had an ostensible causation in Southern Arabia, particularly around the area of Modern Day Yemen. J1 did not arrive in Mesopotamia until the Semitic invasion by the Akkadians in 2340 B.C. The historical and linguistic evidence goes in accordance with genetic evidence that the Akkadians migrated Northwards from the Arabian Peninsula to the Fertile Crescent.

Quote
So far, my only dispute is over the term "Arabid". While I realize its in reference to the Arab plate, yet and still, Akkadians/Assyrians etc, preceded the Arab term by thousands of years.  So basically, we are not "like Arabs", they would be "like us" if anything.  Akkadid maybe a better term (now im sounding lke the stormfront guy  :wavetowel:)


Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 11:33:32 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2009, 09:48:52 PM »
...
Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding of the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.


[/quote]

Ok, so take a look at this Ashurian DNA site.  It shows the DNA results of today's Ashurians.  I think you're in for a surprise ; )

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Let me know what your take is on this.
Alen Barsin

Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2009, 04:23:56 AM »
Pretty interesting chart. The only surprising thing is the E1b1, which is an east African, mainly Ethiopian lineage.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2009, 07:26:24 AM »
...
Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding of the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.




Ok, so take a look at this Ashurian DNA site.  It shows the DNA results of today's Ashurians.  I think you're in for a surprise ; )

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Let me know what your take is on this.

I've viewed these results before, I actually wanted to contribute my DNA results to the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do so due to the fact that I was required to purchase a Y-DNA Test Kit from Family Tree DNA.com but I plan on doing so in the near future. Honestly, the strong presence of R1b does not confound me at all, much of the R1b found in the Assyrian gene pool is accredited to an Armenian lineage, whether or not this lineage is a recent or ancient one is what I'm curious about. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the mutations of R1b is identical to the ones found in Armenians, which is R1b1b2. All in all this does not defile J1's dominance in the Assyrian gene pool, if more samples were collected, I guarantee that J1 would surpass R1b and R1 in general for that matter. The study also fails to mention where these samples were obtained which is why I am reticent to trust the results as much as I trust the ones found on The Genetic Atlas study, if they were collected in the United States and/or Canada, where intermarriage is more common and liable to occur, that could also explain why R1b has such a vigor presence in the Assyrian gene pool.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:32:40 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2009, 08:03:46 PM »
"
I've viewed these results before, I actually wanted to contribute my DNA results to the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do so due to the fact that I was required to purchase a Y-DNA Test Kit from Family Tree DNA.com but I plan on doing so in the near future. Honestly, the strong presence of R1b does not confound me at all, much of the R1b found in the Assyrian gene pool is accredited to an Armenian lineage, whether or not this lineage is a recent or ancient one is what I'm curious about. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the mutations of R1b is identical to the ones found in Armenians, which is R1b1b2. All in all this does not defile J1's dominance in the Assyrian gene pool, if more samples were collected, I guarantee that J1 would surpass R1b and R1 in general for that matter. The study also fails to mention where these samples were obtained which is why I am reticent to trust the results as much as I trust the ones found on The Genetic Atlas study, if they were collected in the United States and/or Canada, where intermarriage is more common and liable to occur, that could also explain why R1b has such a vigor presence in the Assyrian gene pool."


I expected this response from you, and this is the problem I have with your thinking.  You attribute certain elements and facts of Ashurian people and their migrations always to OTHER people and OTHER gerographic orgins.  You don't try to see it as the other way around.  How do you know that it wasn't Ashurians themselves who gave the Armenians this gene.  Why must we always accept just one explanation when it comes to our history or DNA. or our origins?

Try to keep your lid on, but according to you, and some historians of course, it's always us who've been "Influenced", us who've been mixed, us who're probably from somewhere other than their established homeland.  I just have a serious problem with us being the "Newcomers" or "Mixed", when it's very possible and most likely that it was us who've been the indigenous ones of our lands, us who've been passing down genes and so on.

I've seen your charts, and I know you trust in these things, which we normally should, but just because the majority of a certain gene exists more in one place than the other, does not neccesarily mean that's where the origin of it is/was.  Let's say out of 90,000 Ashurians, 55,0000 left Chicago and moved to Scottsdale AZ, without knowing about the move, and by taking a current census, should we assume that most American Ashurians originate from Scottsdale because there are more Ashurians there instead of Chicago?

I know this isn't a great example, but I'm simply saying that maybe we passed on our genes around to other populations.  I just don't subcribe to the theory that we did all the "Barrowing" from others.  As much as we all should trust in Science, I know you'll at least agree that sometimes scientists themselves make mistakes and end up speculating when the answers are not always there.



 
 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 08:09:19 PM by Alen Sin »
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Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2009, 12:56:28 PM »
I expected this response from you, and this is the problem I have with your thinking.  You attribute certain elements and facts of Ashurian people and their migrations always to OTHER people and OTHER gerographic orgins.  You don't try to see it as the other way around.  How do you know that it wasn't Ashurians themselves who gave the Armenians this gene.  Why must we always accept just one explanation when it comes to our history or DNA. or our origins?


That's because R1b IS attributed to "OTHER people and OTHER geographic origins", R1b is by far the most common Haplogroup found in Western European populations, R1 arose from Central or South Asia around 30,000 years ago and is associated with the re-colonization of Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum during the Ice Age. R1b is the ancestor of R1 which dawned in Eurasia, somewhere between Central Asia or the Northern most reaches of Southwest Asia (Within the Caucasus) around 18,000 years ago and is imputed with the mass migration and settlement of Europe in the post-Ice Age Era. Considering the fact that Assyrians didn't exist around 18,000 years ago, it would be erroneous and counterfactual to even suggest that a single nonexistent ethnic group are exclusively responsible for it's diffusion. Furthermore, there is absolutely no shred of empirical evidence to infer that a single ethnic group are responsible for it's dispersion.

Finally, the reason why I find this explanation as being the more plausible is due to the fact that R1b's presence in Armenia is the highest in Southwest Asia, it's percentages in Armenia are roughly around 30%, as oppose to it's very low frequencies as one continues to move south, perpending that this gene flow is likely due to Armenian amalgamation.

Quote

Try to keep your lid on, but according to you, and some historians of course, it's always us who've been "Influenced", us who've been mixed, us who're probably from somewhere other than their established homeland.  I just have a serious problem with us being the "Newcomers" or "Mixed", when it's very possible and most likely that it was us who've been the indigenous ones of our lands, us who've been passing down genes and so on.


The only one who's keeping their "lid" on is you, archaeological and historical evidence is at odds with your baseless assertions and sophistry, the Sumerians were the first ones to inaugurate Mesopotamia as their homeland before our predecessors the Akkadians sacked Sumer in 2340 B.C., this was thousands of years prior to the inception of the Old Assyrian Period around 1900 to 1200 B.C. It was the Sumerians that the postliminary civilizations had an impact on, and this is apparent in the writing system the Akkadians appropriated into their language, the system of law which led to the development of the Code of Hammurabi, and the religion that the Babylonians incorporated as their belief system. If you have a problem with us being "newcomers" then you should make an effort disprove the historical, archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence in opposition to your absurdities, rather than abhorrently and obnoxiously predicating your beliefs on wishful thinking. Secondly, genetic purity is extremely rare and the Modern Assyrians are no exception.



Quote
I've seen your charts, and I know you trust in these things, which we normally should, but just because the majority of a certain gene exists more in one place than the other, does not neccesarily mean that's where the origin of it is/was.  Let's say out of 90,000 Ashurians, 55,0000 left Chicago and moved to Scottsdale AZ, without knowing about the move, and by taking a current census, should we assume that most American Ashurians originate from Scottsdale because there are more Ashurians there instead of Chicago?


I agree that one must not rely on the amount of people that constitutes a population as a marker's geographical origin. However, this the reason why we map the migratory routes of the peoples who do carry certain gene(s) into other parts of the world, if a group of people carried a specific marker into another region and settled there, we would already be appraised of such a migration because we could trace the direction they took from their place of origin to the area(s) they're settling in the present day.

Quote
I know this isn't a great example, but I'm simply saying that maybe we passed on our genes around to other populations.  I just don't subcribe to the theory that we did all the "Barrowing" from others.  As much as we all should trust in Science, I know you'll at least agree that sometimes scientists themselves make mistakes and end up speculating when the answers are not always there.


An important thing to note is, when it comes to genes, they aren't contingent upon nor do they necessarily appertain to the advancement of an intrinsic group of people, it would be incorrect to proclaim that a specific group of people is responsible for the diffusion of a particular genetic marker. The evidence fulcrums that we were in fact influenced by previous civilizations in Mesopotamia, this is evident in the language the Assyrians spoke before becoming Aramized between 8th and 9th Centuries and the art depicted on the walls, pottery, and statues. Of course, I'm not connoting that our civilization didn't inspire and/or influence the advent of other civilizations, I just don't concede to the idea that we were the only ones to conceive all of this, and everyone else is just a plagiarist. Depending on what field of Science you're referring to, the mistakes aren't necessarily as drastic as you may think they are and just because scientists haven't found all of the answers yet doesn't mean we'll never find them.
 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:54:06 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2009, 07:39:08 PM »
 "Considering the fact that Assyrians didn't exist around 18,000 years ago, it would be erroneous and counterfactual to even suggest that a single nonexistent ethnic group are exclusively responsible for it's diffusion. Furthermore, there is absolutely no shred of empirical evidence to infer that a single ethnic group are responsible for it's dispersion."

Says who, you?  There you go again assuming that "Assyrians did not exist around 18,000 years ago".  You have absolutely no evidence of this, not you, not any scientists either.  Maybe they simply didn't call themselves "Assyrians" in that time, but that does not mean they didn't exist.  "Non Existing ethnic group"?  Please!  That's an absurd idea!  They existed but who knows as what?  Who knows what anybody called themselves 18,000 years ago?  You're admitting that there were a people in that time, so how do we know for sure if they were or weren't Ashurians?  The answer is we don't.

"Finally, the reason why I find this explanation as being the more plausible is due to the fact that R1b's presence in Armenia is the highest in Southwest Asia, it's percentages in Armenia are roughly around 30%, as oppose to it's very low frequencies as one continues to move south, perpending that this gene flow is likely due to Armenian amalgamation."

You're repeating yourself.  I simply believe it's a possibility that it could've been the other way around, referring to the migrations.  This is not an impossibility.

"The only one who's keeping their "lid" on is you"

You didn't even understand what I meant.  I meant to keep your cool, which obviously you can't.  Just curious, how old are you?


"archaeological and historical evidence is at odds with your baseless assertions and sophistry"

Can you refer to me any books to prove your statement?  Really, I'm very interested to know the truth.
 

"The Sumerians were the first ones to inaugurate Mesopotamia as their homeland before our predecessors the Akkadians sacked Sumer in 2340 B.C."

This is your belief and NOT scientific or archaeological fact.  Ashurians existed there just as long or possibly longer than the Sumerians.  The Sumerians, also very possibly our ancestors, did invent writing and the wheel, and that led to the 1st real civilzation, but that doesn't mean there was no one else in mesopotamia at that time.  All the books on mesopotamian history say this.

"this was thousands of years prior to the inception of the Old Assyrian Period around 1900 to 1200 B.C."

Again, you're only counting the Ashurians' time during their empires, not prior.  When Assyria wasn't an empire, they were farmers and traders as early as 6000 BC, and that's how old Ninweh and Arbil are dated. Here's an excerpt from this report:  "The first settlements at Nineveh began in 6,000 B.C. During the 2nd and 3rd millenium Nineveh was dedicated to the worship of gods like Ishtar."  Read more here:  www.associatedcontent.com/article/447190/history_of_the_ancient_city_of_nineveh.html

This is just one source, but there are plenty more if you search.


 
"It was the Sumerians that the postliminary civilizations had an impact on, and this is apparent in the writing system the Akkadians appropriated into their language, the system of law which led to the development of the Code of Hammurabi, and the religion that the Babylonians incorporated as their belief system."

Still, you're only stating the fact that other people adopted writing from the Sumerians.  This doesn't mean they weren't natives there.  Writing simply was invented in Sumer and not Akkad or Ashur.  This doesn't mean the Sumerians "Predated" other Mesopotamians.

 "If you have a problem with us being "newcomers" then you should make an effort disprove the historical, archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence in opposition to your absurdities, rather than abhorrently and obnoxiously predicating your beliefs on wishful thinking. Secondly, genetic purity is extremely rare and the Modern Assyrians are no exception."

Man, it is YOU who's the absurd one.  Blind to possibilities and biased in your take on Mesopotamian History and her people.  There's nothing I need to disprove because contrary to your statement and beliefs, science has already admitted the presence of Ashurians as long as that of the Sumerians, and possibly older.
I'm a fan of Archaeology and Assyriology and it's founder/father, Sir Austen Henry layard, who spoke of Ashurian presence in Ninweh, Calah, Ashur and Arbil since 6000 BC.  You're the absurd and obnoxious one if you don't know these facts.



"I agree that one must not rely on the amount of people that constitutes a population as a marker's geographical origin."

This is my point.

"An important thing to note is, when it comes to genes, they aren't contingent upon nor do they necessarily appertain to the advancement of an intrinsic group of people, it would be incorrect to proclaim that a specific group of people is responsible for the diffusion of a particular genetic marker."

But that's exactly what you've been doing by saying "the R1 Genes were spread to us by Armenians, the J2 by Sumerians.....".  All this haplogroup stuff you're talking about means nothing.  You've already admitted that no one people are Genetically pure, and all are mixed, so what's the point of all this stuff you've posted here regarding genetics?  All you've proven is that EVERYONE is mixed with OTHER genes from other people.  We all know this already.  Wherever we Ashurians, Armenians, Greeks, Russians got our genes from doesn't really matter.  All that matters is which culture we belong to, are loyal to and what our name and identity is.  Regardless of all this genetic stuff, we're Ashurayeh, and we have an extremely ancient history and share the same features and blood as our ancient ancestors did, regardless of whatever they called themselves in their time.

The evidence fulcrums that we were in fact influenced by previous civilizations in Mesopotamia, this is evident in the language the Assyrians spoke before becoming Aramized between 8th and 9th Centuries and the art depicted on the walls, pottery, and statues.

And I say the "Arameans" were Ashurianized/Akkadianized way before they "Aramized" anybody, and this is based on the fact that King Sargon of Akkad created the first empire and influenced all in the Akkadian way, language and art.  Aram was nothing more than a small kingdom that became part of the empire.  All the Ashurians, Babylonians did was borrow the Aramaic script, but that's pretty much it.  It was easier to use than cuneiform, but it did not replace the Ashurian language.  Influenced maybe, but again I remind you that the Arameans were influenced 1st by the Ashurians/Akkadians.

"Of course, I'm not connoting that our civilization didn't inspire and/or influence the advent of other civilizations, I just don't concede to the idea that we were the only ones to conceive all of this, and everyone else is just a plagiarist."

Why, you think plagiarism didn't exist in those days?  The entire old testament is plagiarized material.

"Depending on what field of Science you're referring to, the mistakes aren't necessarily as drastic as you may think they are and just because scientists haven't found all of the answers yet doesn't mean we'll never find them."

Doesn't matter which specific scientific field I'm talking about.  The fact is, Scientist have been DRASTICALLY wrong in Different fields, take astronomy for example;  I grew up believing our solar system had nine planets.  Should I continue?
 
Alen Barsin

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2009, 11:56:34 AM »
Below is the latest study on J1e and most of the Assyrians cases in the study are  J1* DYS=388 , so I think in my modest opinion' the so called  Semite/Assyrians belong to  J1*DYS=388 + J1e haplotypes( J1 DYS388=13 is ancestral to J1e).


Abstract:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2009166a.html


Data files:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x1.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x2.xls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assyrian DNA project By Mary Yonan & Joel Elias

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults


Thank you
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:01:29 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2009, 06:28:44 PM »
Below is the latest study on J1e and most of the Assyrians cases in the study are  J1* DYS=388 , so I think in my modest opinion' the so called  Semite/Assyrians belong to  J1*DYS=388 + J1e haplotypes( J1 DYS388=13 is ancestral to J1e).


Abstract:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2009166a.html


Data files:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x1.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x2.xls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assyrian DNA project By Mary Yonan & Joel Elias

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults


Thank you



The reason I referenced the J1* DYS388=13 is not to point out it is point of origin but to point out that it is the most common haplotype among Assyrians (Me Myself still think Assyrians came originally  with akkadians from the Arabian Peninsula).

Thank you
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:53:17 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2009, 06:51:24 PM »
Some Refrences about Akkadians and Assyrians:

" The Akkadians were a Semitic people living on the Arabic peninsula . "

http://history-world.org/akkadians.htm

"Portions of this work contributed by Robert A. Guisepi and F. Roy Williams, University of California "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The northern division of Babylon was called Accad, comprehending Babylon, the southern Sumer, including Erech and Ur. North of Accad were the Semitic tribes which so largely made up the blood of Assyria in later days"


CHAPTER XI.
THE STRANGE RACES OF CHALDEA
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/we/we14.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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" The Assyrians also had a civilization that flourished to the west of Lake Urmia(Azerbaijan) in the centuries prior to creation of Media and Albania. Most of the ancient documents and inscriptions used for historical analysis of the area come from the Assyrians and from the kingdom of Urartu. In dealing with the history of Azerbaijan, most western scholars refer to Greek, Arab, Roman, and Persian sources."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Anatolia, the first millennium B.C. begins in a period of disruption and decentralization: new states form and regroup. Greek colonies are established in southern and western Anatolia and, later, on the Black Sea coasts. By the late eighth century B.C., the Neo-Assyrian empire, with its capital cities in Mesopotamia, confronts small kingdoms in both Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, including Urartu, Phrygia, and (later) Lydia

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/04/waa/ht04waa.htm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nakh/Dagestani Lingo are also linked to Akkadian"
The Chechens: a handbook By M. Jaimoukha


http://books.google.com/books?id=PnjAlei9fe0C&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=Akkadian+language+in+Chechnya&source=bl&ots=cBbBADk6tF&sig=fRyUFzAEbmh8QqAGerjM7Rap8yo&hl=en&ei=ZwevSpDeBIyJtgeHyODVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Akkadian%20language%20in%20Chechnya&f=false
regards
----------------------------------------------------

BRIEF CHECHEN HISTORY

"Ethnic Identity

We, the Chechens, are not slavs. We are not Turks, despite the fact that Turkey unites all North Caucasus Muslim into a category which is related to them. We are not even "Chechen." This was coined by the Russians after the name of a village (Chechen-aul) where the Russians first encountered our people in the early 16th century. The first written mention of our people was in the 7th century, where we were known as the "Noxche" (pronounced "No-h-chee" with the "h" pronounced as if one was gargling from the back of the mouth: very similar to one of the ancient Aramaic letters)."

Language

The Noxche language is considered one of the most difficult and oldest languages in the Caucasus. Its roots can be traced most closely to the ancient Mesopotamians. A cuneiform-style of writing is evident on some of the stone inscriptions, dating at least to 2,800 BC. The Noxche language, as we know it today, is most linked to some of the words used by the ancient Akkhadians, and can be traced at least to 1200 BC.. It is not related to Russian, Slavic, Indo-European or Turkish languages

1,850 BC: bronze working evident as the northern most point. Contemporary to bronze working among the Hurrians, Kassites, Amorites and others to the south. "

http://russia.rin.ru/guides_e/3214.html

http://amina.com/article/br_hist.html


Most J1 Chechens are J1* DYS388=13


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Dr Golda H. Kaplan is a linguist. She researches Akkadian, especially its system of verb tenses. Her principal ideas can be found in the monograph Use of aspect-tense verbal forms in Akkadian texts of the Hammurapi period (1792-1750 B.C.) published in English in 2002. She wrote also The Sketches On Akkadian Grammar, the most detailed study guide on Akkadian in Russia."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Great German Nation (They say some Germans Tribes originally Assyrians)

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXPz0dzGjf0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=assyrians+are+descents+of+the+akkadians&source=bl&ots=sd3yhBOpMA&sig=A20TpO7X8dDQHm4P4l9HKxmjKfU&hl=en&ei=fy3dStH3A4riswOYvtnVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

------------------------------------------------



http://books.google.com/books?id=kB_Z_zdfxqsC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=The+Assyrians+are+the+descendants+of+the+Akkadians&source=bl&ots=PUnYlFR_DK&sig=Ot9KqrcKMAeg3vLlTeEtShiV8XA&hl=en&ei=ER_dStH4K5aB8QbQirRr&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CB4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Assyrians%20are%20the%20descendants%20of%20the%20Akkadians&f=false

Regards



« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 07:09:20 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2009, 01:49:14 PM »
groups. It may be on the grounds of experiencing feelings of relegation from their positions within these newly developed Empires. As for your theory of why we exhibit high percentages of J1 as opposed to J2, while it is an interesting theory, I find that the high degrees of J1 are more attributable to Akkadian ancestry, the reason why I find this explanation more feasible is because of the vivid linguistic similarities between the Akkadian language and the 'Adid language spoken by the A'ad tribes in what is now eastern Yemen, western Oman, and parts of the Dhofar Mountains over the Arabian Sea. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility of outside influence on our genetic integrity, which resulted in higher instances of Haplogroup J1.


 
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
A'ad - Page 4
Relation to Semitic languages
The Eastern South Semitic languages are known for their extremely archaic nature, especially in their system of phonology -- for example, they preserve the lateral fricatives of Proto-Semitic, which were lost in all other Semitic languages thousands of years ago.

South Arabia in general remains as the only region in the world to remain exlusively Semitic through history. However, its unknown if the Western South Semitic family (which includes many Western Semitic and Eastern Semitic elements), but then most of the Wetsern Semitic languages can be related to the Aramiac Christians and Hebrew speakers presence in ancient Yemen. Also the Western Southern Semitic family spread/evolved in the direction North to South and East to West sequence which indicates a more Eastern/Northern origin perhaps in the Rub' Al Khali just to the North of the 'Ad.

The 'Adid language shares many Eastern Semitic elements (which predates any recorded Semitic influence in Western Yemen or Africa) and until this day the Mahra and Shahra languages are considered the purest of the Semitic tongues, mainly due to the long isolation in the 'Ad region which might not favor it in this case as the origin of all Semitic tongue, instead a common origin or close relation to the Akkadians who lived with them directly in the Empty Quarter of the Arabian peninsula before they split to Akkadians who headed to Akkad[1] and 'Adids who headed to the 'Ad. The Magan (Oman) connection with Ancient Sumer (which will be conquered by the Akkadians) adds another dimension to this theory.


References
^ Akkadians
The ancient Arab tribe of 'Ad
'Ad the people of East Yemen and Oman
Timeline of Oman
South Semitic - Akkadian connection
Arabian origins of the Akkadians

   http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/A'ad/4#

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2009, 03:14:56 PM »
South Semitic - Akkadian connection

http://www.jstor.org/pss/594727
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 03:17:37 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2009, 03:34:55 PM »
I came across an interesting video, and wanted to see what your take on it is.   fascinating stuff!  





Below is another Great video!


Who are  the Assyrians ?


« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 04:00:36 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »
"According to this, Arabia was originally a land of great fertility and the first home of the Semitic peoples. Through the millennia it has been undergoing a process of steady desiccation, a drying up of wealth and waterways and a spread of the desert at the expense of the cultivable land. The declining productivity of the peninsula, together with the increase in the number of the inhabitants, led to a series of crises of overpopulation and consequently to a recurring cycle of invasions of the neighbouring countries by the Semitic peoples of the peninsula. It was these crises that carried the Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews), and finally the Arabs themselves into the Fertile Crescent."

Bernard Lewis (2002), The Arabs in History, Oxford University Press, USA; 6New Ed edition, page 17

Offline Alucard

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2009, 06:02:08 AM »
Also, the conclusions of this study performed by Dr. Elias and Mary Yonan, who also executed the analysis of Assyrian Heritage DNA Project on Family Tree DNA.com indicates that the main haplotype Assyrian males belong to, including myself is J1-M267.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm

This is not an authentic population genetics study. Someone please ban this troll, he's making things up. Don't come here with fake genetic studies.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2009, 12:04:20 AM »
This is not an authentic population genetics study. Someone please ban this troll, he's making things up. Don't come here with fake genetic studies.

I assure you that the study I provided above is indeed an attested, peer-reviewed study executed by Dr. Yonan from the Assyrian DNA Heritage Project. If you don't believe me, you may e-mail her for yourself. If anything this analysis corroborates the one performed by Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in 2000. The Modern Assyrians do in fact share a common ancestry with the Modern Jordanian population in Amman, as indicated by their genetic affinity of their Y-DNA Haplogroup assignment. That alone should substantiate that fact. Oh but wait, you prefer to classify us under antiquated racial terms like "Caucasoid" as if it were a synonym for "White", which by the way, have long been considered obsolete by the anthropological community since the 19th Century. Sorry, but I don't abide by outdated racial classifications, my Y-Chromosome, along with the Y-Chromosome of the rest of the 41% of Assyrian males originated in the Arabian Peninsula, not in the Caucasus Mountains.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 12:09:17 AM by Unknown_User »
"Trust those searching for the truth, not those who've found it."

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2009, 12:55:16 AM »
I assure you that the study I provided above is indeed an attested, peer-reviewed study executed by Dr. Yonan from the Assyrian DNA Heritage Project. If you don't believe me, you may e-mail her for yourself. If anything this analysis corroborates the one performed by Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in 2000. The Modern Assyrians do in fact share a common ancestry with the Modern Jordanian population in Amman, as indicated by their genetic affinity of their Y-DNA Haplogroup assignment. That alone should substantiate that fact. Oh but wait, you prefer to classify us under antiquated racial terms like "Caucasoid" as if it were a synonym for "White", which by the way, have long been considered obsolete by the anthropological community since the 19th Century. Sorry, but I don't abide by outdated racial classifications, my Y-Chromosome, along with the Y-Chromosome of the rest of the 41% of Assyrian males originated in the Arabian Peninsula, not in the Caucasus Mountains.

Unknown_User :

Thank you very much for your clarification of the above study ,

FYI

I contacted Dr . YONAN so many times by email Requesting more info about the above study and the Jordanian one but for some reason she never acknowledged  my emails !!!!!

Thank you


Offline Micho

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2009, 07:00:39 PM »
They should also take DNA test on assyrians from Tur Abdin, most of the test I see they do from Assyrians are from syria or Iraq. The ones from Tur Abdin are generally brighter than assyrians from other places, probably because of climate.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2017, 11:17:03 PM »
My point is always this:  1.  We are Not "Semites" because it is a term based on a hebrew fairy tale.  Why listen to what Hebrews think of us when our own ancestors have already told and shown us who we were/are?! 
Omg, finally somebody else in this forum actually had the intelligence and heed to say this fact.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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