Author Topic: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?  (Read 21914 times)

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Offline tyrusthomas

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Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« on: July 21, 2009, 10:39:32 AM »
I came across an interesting video, and wanted to see what your take on it is.   fascinating stuff! 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bMv7u-8EZYI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bMv7u-8EZYI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>





Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 12:07:52 AM »
I came across an interesting video, and wanted to see what your take on it is.   fascinating stuff! 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bMv7u-8EZYI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bMv7u-8EZYI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMv7u-8EZYI




I've seen this video before and it proves absolutely nothing, also, the author of the video has succeeded in Arabizing a great national song of Assyria.  The term "Semitic" is totally useless because it's based on a fictional character in the Old Testament, whom if we took seriously, he still couldn't be the father of Ashurians, Babylonians and Akkadians because he (Shem) was born During an Existing Ashurian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Sumerian civilization and full fledged Kingdoms.  If you believe in this fictional character being the "supposed" father of Ashurians/Assyrians, then you should also believe that the earth is just 6000 years old.  Our year, as Ashurians/Assyrians is older than that (6759).

Cheers!
Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 12:58:14 PM »

I've seen this video before and it proves absolutely nothing, also, the author of the video has succeeded in Arabizing a great national song of Assyria.  The term "Semitic" is totally useless because it's based on a fictional character in the Old Testament, whom if we took seriously, he still couldn't be the father of Ashurians, Babylonians and Akkadians because he (Shem) was born During an Existing Ashurian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Sumerian civilization and full fledged Kingdoms.  If you believe in this fictional character being the "supposed" father of Ashurians/Assyrians, then you should also believe that the earth is just 6000 years old.  Our year, as Ashurians/Assyrians is older than that (6759).

Cheers!

To be honest brother I wasn't focusing on the word Semite at all, more about the distinct racial difference.   nikhraye love to lump as together like all middle easterns the same. But as far as the misnomer Semites I totally agree.  Especially when they *ahem* conveniently want to use the word "antisemite" strictly for themselves (why not antiJewish?).  Adding to that, in the Bible it talks about Abraham's origins being from "Ur of Chaldees" but we know there was no "Chaldea" at the time of Abraham's existence. their Torah was written in about 400 BC, when Chaldea was known.  Obvoiusly teh Bible doesn't make for a good historical source.

I agree with the southward  migratory flow of our language and people, not upward from Saudi like most theorize.  So my belief is that as far as genetics goes, the AssyrioBabylonians aka Akkadians, Amorites, Cananite Phoenicians,  and then a bit further Israelite-Hebrew-Arameans, were closely related while Bedouin Arabs were totally different people. 

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2009, 12:58:14 PM »

Offline jacob

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2009, 04:15:17 PM »
We've had the Semitic term argument in another thread so I won't rehash any of it here.

Like Alen said this video really proves nothing.  It puts up theory as fact and simply uses vague statements without sourcing or citation of scientific research.  There is a suggested readings at the end but it's not the same as sourced info.  I don't see this theory as any different from the opposite ones saying we all migrated from the Arabian Peninsula.

I think the more that DNA testing advances the more we're going to find out how closely related we are to Arabs.  Humans didn't just pop up on the Earth independent of each other, we all migrated from somewhere.  So we will all be related in some basic way and then the diversions will appear as people moved great distances.  Some will be more closely related than others.  It only makes sense that people that live in one part of the world over millennia will show similar characteristics.  It's basic tribal politics that makes us all think we're different or better.

As for the anti-Semite term.  This has been discussed before too.  The term is not used by *ahem* them at the exclusion of all other Semites.  The term has a definition and that definition is prejudice against Jews.  Why is it wrong?  All words have a definition and so does this one.  Semite and anti-Semite are not direct opposites, they each have their own meaning.  This using of the anti- prefix may be an exception to the general rule, but we have plenty of those in English.  Why fixate on this one?  Instead of blaming them *ahem*, why not blame the Germans for this since they are the ones that used the word Semite (Semitisch) to mean Jew in their racial supremacy writings claiming Aryan superiority over the Semite.  So naturally, as a response to these writings, antisemitisch (anti-Semite) was used to mean anti-Jew.

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 11:00:16 PM »
To be honest brother I wasn't focusing on the word Semite at all, more about the distinct racial difference.   nikhraye love to lump as together like all middle easterns the same. But as far as the misnomer Semites I totally agree.  Especially when they *ahem* conveniently want to use the word "antisemite" strictly for themselves (why not antiJewish?).  Adding to that, in the Bible it talks about Abraham's origins being from "Ur of Chaldees" but we know there was no "Chaldea" at the time of Abraham's existence. their Torah was written in about 400 BC, when Chaldea was known.  Obvoiusly teh Bible doesn't make for a good historical source.

I agree with the southward  migratory flow of our language and people, not upward from Saudi like most theorize.  So my belief is that as far as genetics goes, the AssyrioBabylonians aka Akkadians, Amorites, Cananite Phoenicians,  and then a bit further Israelite-Hebrew-Arameans, were closely related while Bedouin Arabs were totally different people. 


Well put!, and this was always my point, that the "Assumption" that the Akkadians, our ancestors and the same people as the Ashurians, Babylonians and very possibly the Sumerians, came from the Arabian Peninsula is based on nothing more than some historian's speculation.  If the historian/s' simply looked closely at how the Akkadians, Babylonians and Ashurians dressed, they would immediately see that these were a highly advanced and modern people when compared to their neighbors anywhere outside of mesopotamia, Especially Arabia.

If you've seen the Stone Steles of Ashurians chasing off Arab Tribes on Horse back while the Arabs were on Camel Back, you'll notice that still by 700 BC (Nearly 2000 years after King Sargon of Akkad) the Arabs dress code was no where near as fashionistic/modern as the Ashurians who were chasing them, now go google king NaramSin, grandson of king Sargon of Akkad, and look how well he's dressed in 2400 BC.  He looks even more modern than the Arab tribes of 700 BC.  Clearly these people (The Akkadians) have known modernity and Fashion long before any arab treaded on Mesopotamian soil.

We can look and study through the art our ancestors left behind how it's such a silly and stupid thing to say that the Akkadians came from the Arabian Peninsula, and changed their entire look overnight?!

I will say this regrettably, today, our people are arabized, kurdified, Persianized, and turkified, not to their/our blame though, but to the oppression they've lived through back home in Occupied Assyria.  This is why I'm always trying to get my people to think and feel Ashurian, and to realize that we are our own unique culture and ethnicity with one of the richest histories in the world.  We must always protect our name and identity.  This is all we have left today!


Cheers!
Alen Barsin

Offline jacob

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 11:20:13 PM »
I don't think that fashion disproves the migration theory.  Nobody migrated overnight and changed their clothes the next day.  If the people of the middle east originated in Africa and came up through the Arabian peninsula, you may have had some groups that stayed in the south and others that continued north.  That they progressed onwards to civilization at different rates is not out of the ordinary.  You may have had a group that came up and settled in the north and who called themselves Akkadian, Babylonian, and Assyrian while another group settled in the south, called themselves Arab and were nomadic for much longer.  This rate of progress, even as outlined in their clothing, art, math, science, or military conquest doesn't prove or disprove their origin.  It just means they developed an advanced civilization in the area they settled.

I don't know how, precisely, people came to inhabit the middle east but we do know that humanity's oldest ancestors come from Africa.  It's not too far fetched to say they may have migrated up from what is now called Arabia during some prehistoric migrations.  Admitting this doesn't take anything away from our accomplishments or from our ethnicity.  Categorically denying that we have any relation to Arabs or Jews only makes us look foolish.  Like we no longer believe in science or something.

Offline Damail

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 01:36:04 AM »
Excellent video, thanks for sharing.


Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 05:16:41 AM »
Assyrians and Arabs both speak languages derived from the semitic language family. When it comes to their genetic origins, that's a bit trickier. Genetic studies on Arabs from the Arabian peninsula have revealed some diversity in their ancestry. Most of them have the J1 haplotype, an Arabian genetic marker...no surprise there...Assyrians have this haplotype too, but less so than Arabians. The interesting thing about people from the Arabian peninsula is that they also have genes that are of south asian and east african origins, indicating gene flow between these regions. The one study I've read about Assyrians pairs them up with Jordanians. Native Jordanians are predominantly of Bedouin origin, but the majority of the population is of Palestinian extraction. The study doesn't indicate which group we're related to, but most likely it's the Palestinians...it makes more sense.

Offline Tambur

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 10:36:16 AM »
Assyrians and Arabs both speak languages derived from the semitic language family. When it comes to their genetic origins, that's a bit trickier. Genetic studies on Arabs from the Arabian peninsula have revealed some diversity in their ancestry. Most of them have the J1 haplotype, an Arabian genetic marker...no surprise there...Assyrians have this haplotype too, but less so than Arabians. The interesting thing about people from the Arabian peninsula is that they also have genes that are of south asian and east african origins, indicating gene flow between these regions. The one study I've read about Assyrians pairs them up with Jordanians. Native Jordanians are predominantly of Bedouin origin, but the majority of the population is of Palestinian extraction. The study doesn't indicate which group we're related to, but most likely it's the Palestinians...it makes more sense.


They would probably be even closer to Syrians had they been included in the study, but I don't think I remember seeing Syrians in the chart, looking at this chart:



This tells me that Assyrians are closer in blood to some of those Levant populations such as the Syrians and Palestinians (Which are the majority in Jordon), then we see that they are close to Caucasian populations which include Kurds, Georgians, Caspian groups, and the one that surprised me the most, Iraqi Arabs, I always thought Iraqi Arabs would be closer to those Gulf or Bedouin populations in blood, but I have a feeling the sample they got from Iraqi Arabs was from the ordinary Baghdadi families, had it been a little more south you would see different results.


Offline Had

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 12:20:48 AM »
Northern Arabs are mixed even according to Arab traditions, only Southern Arabs are the real kind, so it doesn't surprise me that Iraqis in general would have little in common genetically with 'pure Arabs'. 

The most interesting thing about this genetic tree is how far removed we are from Armenians, even though we lived side by side and had the same religion.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 02:30:16 AM »
The primary Y-Chromosomal element in the Armenian population is Haplogroup R1, which is a Eurasid marker found throughout Western Europe, Eurasia, and certain parts of Africa. It peaks at over 40% in the Armenian population, and around 20% in the Georgian population. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA), particularly J2 is also found in moderate frequencies in Armenia (Around 30%).

Total Y-DNA Distribution in Armenian

R1b: 40%

J2: 30%

G: 11%

E1b1b: 5%

I: 5%

NOP: 4%

L: 4%

T: 1%

Distribution of various Y-Chromosomal DNA Haplogroups

« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 02:31:29 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 02:43:53 AM »
They would probably be even closer to Syrians had they been included in the study, but I don't think I remember seeing Syrians in the chart, looking at this chart:



This tells me that Assyrians are closer in blood to some of those Levant populations such as the Syrians and Palestinians (Which are the majority in Jordon), then we see that they are close to Caucasian populations which include Kurds, Georgians, Caspian groups, and the one that surprised me the most, Iraqi Arabs, I always thought Iraqi Arabs would be closer to those Gulf or Bedouin populations in blood, but I have a feeling the sample they got from Iraqi Arabs was from the ordinary Baghdadi families, had it been a little more south you would see different results.



Our connection with the people of the Levant is probably due to ancient movements and migrations, mainly the Amorite and later Aramean migrations from the Levant (the Syria-Palestine region) into northern Mesopotamia. Some of the other findings in this chart are unexpected...the close connection between Iraqi Arabs and Kurds, though the Arabs of central and northern Iraq (from Baghdad to Mosul) are predominantly the descendants of the pre-Muslim population. But that doesn't explain the close connection with Kurds, who historically have been largely restricted to the mountains of northern Iraq and along the Zagros mountains. I would've expected a closer connection between Assyrians and Armenians, considering the close geographic proximity and relatively high levels of intermarriage. And why are the Kuwaitis an isolate? Shouldn't they be grouped with the Bedouin/Saudi/Yemeni populations?

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 05:17:31 AM »
Our connection with the people of the Levant is probably due to ancient movements and migrations, mainly the Amorite and later Aramean migrations from the Levant (the Syria-Palestine region) into northern Mesopotamia. Some of the other findings in this chart are unexpected...the close connection between Iraqi Arabs and Kurds, though the Arabs of central and northern Iraq (from Baghdad to Mosul) are predominantly the descendants of the pre-Muslim population. But that doesn't explain the close connection with Kurds, who historically have been largely restricted to the mountains of northern Iraq and along the Zagros mountains. I would've expected a closer connection between Assyrians and Armenians, considering the close geographic proximity and relatively high levels of intermarriage. And why are the Kuwaitis an isolate? Shouldn't they be grouped with the Bedouin/Saudi/Yemeni populations?

Have you ever thought that perhaps some of those "Kurds" are actually Kurdified Assyrians?
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2009, 05:48:41 AM »
Have you ever thought that perhaps some of those "Kurds" are actually Kurdified Assyrians?
I have no doubt that many Kurds are descendants of kurdified Assyrians. But what I'm saying is that throughout history, the Kurds and their ancestors have been largely restricted to the mountainous areas of northern Iraq and along the Zagros mountains (along the Iraq-Iran border). I'm assuming that many of the "Arabs" of Iraq, particularly the ones in central and northern Iraq (from Baghdad to Mosul) are descendants of the original Aramaic speaking population of this region. Historical records indicate that the countryside of what is today central and northern Iraq (the Mosul region) was populated by people speaking the Aramaic language. This is why the chart is confusing...Iraqi Arabs and Kurds are very closely related...this would imply that these Aramaic speaking people were kurds (ethnically) who later switched to Arabic and assumed an Arab identity....I find that hard to believe. The other explanation would be that this islamized/Arabized population+Arab settlers that merged with it must have intermarried heavily with the Kurdish population up north over the centuries to explain this level of genetic closeness...or its possible that there is something flawed about this study.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2009, 06:16:40 AM »
I have no doubt that many Kurds are descendants of kurdified Assyrians. But what I'm saying is that throughout history, the Kurds and their ancestors have been largely restricted to the mountainous areas of northern Iraq and along the Zagros mountains (along the Iraq-Iran border). I'm assuming that many of the "Arabs" of Iraq, particularly the ones in central and northern Iraq (from Baghdad to Mosul) are descendants of the original Aramaic speaking population of this region. Historical records indicate that the countryside of what is today central and northern Iraq (the Mosul region) was populated by people speaking the Aramaic language. This is why the chart is confusing...Iraqi Arabs and Kurds are very closely related...this would imply that these Aramaic speaking people were kurds (ethnically) who later switched to Arabic and assumed an Arab identity....I find that hard to believe. The other explanation would be that this islamized/Arabized population+Arab settlers that merged with it must have intermarried heavily with the Kurdish population up north over the centuries to explain this level of genetic closeness...or its possible that there is something flawed about this study.

Can you be more specific as to what the above statement in bold pertains to? I assumed that after the Fall of Nineveh, the Aramaeans, being a Semi-Nomadic people became largely displaced and assimilated within whatever region they settled in. I'd also like to point out that the Ancient Assyrians adopted Aramaic in the 8th Century, initially after the Aramaeans were assimilated into the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Even after the Fall of Nineveh, the Aramaic language proceeded to spread and inevitably became the lingua franca of the Middle East. This may also explain our genetic closeness with Levantine Arabs and Kurds, denoting a possibility of Aramaean admixture shared among us and these other ethnic groups.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 06:27:27 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Hanuni

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2009, 09:04:19 AM »
How about the racial connection between west (Maronite and Syriac) and east Assyrians, has there been any DNA researches on the Assyrian nation including the different fractions?
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Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2009, 09:25:21 AM »
How about the racial connection between west (Maronite and Syriac) and east Assyrians, has there been any DNA researches on the Assyrian nation including the different fractions?


The only DNA study performed on the Assyrian population that I could conjure up is this one. The samples collected were 78 Assyrian men and 69 Iraqi Muslims from Al-Qadisyah, Iraq for comparison. According to the analysis, the samples were collected from Assyrians residing in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and by diaspora, I assume that they're either referring to other countries in the Middle East and/or outside of it.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 09:27:32 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2009, 06:26:16 PM »
Can you be more specific as to what the above statement in bold pertains to? I assumed that after the Fall of Nineveh, the Aramaeans, being a Semi-Nomadic people became largely displaced and assimilated within whatever region they settled in. I'd also like to point out that the Ancient Assyrians adopted Aramaic in the 8th Century, initially after the Aramaeans were assimilated into the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Even after the Fall of Nineveh, the Aramaic language proceeded to spread and inevitably became the lingua franca of the Middle East. This may also explain our genetic closeness with Levantine Arabs and Kurds, denoting a possibility of Aramaean admixture shared among us and these other ethnic groups.
The population in the countryside had in all likelihood originally been Akkadian speaking, then sometime during the last Assyrian Empire switching to Aramaic and finally switching to Arabic (and the Islamic religion) after the Arab conquest. The chart shows that Iraqi Arabs and Kurds are closely related, which leads to two possible conclusions:1). that the above mentioned population, though Aramaic speaking before the Arab conquest, was genetically Kurdish...hard to believe considering that the Kurds, though having a presence in the cities, have never been the majority in those regions (central and northern iraq..from Baghdad to Mosul) or the more plausible conclusion 2). that this islamized/Arabized Aramean population plus the settlers from Arabia must have mixed heavily with Kurdish tribes up north to result in such genetic closeness.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2009, 12:13:33 AM »
The population in the countryside had in all likelihood originally been Akkadian speaking, then sometime during the last Assyrian Empire switching to Aramaic and finally switching to Arabic (and the Islamic religion) after the Arab conquest. The chart shows that Iraqi Arabs and Kurds are closely related, which leads to two possible conclusions:1). that the above mentioned population, though Aramaic speaking before the Arab conquest, was genetically Kurdish...hard to believe considering that the Kurds, though having a presence in the cities, have never been the majority in those regions (central and northern iraq..from Baghdad to Mosul) or the more plausible conclusion 2). that this islamized/Arabized Aramean population plus the settlers from Arabia must have mixed heavily with Kurdish tribes up north to result in such genetic closeness.

Precisely, which was why I think this may also be due to Aramaean admixture shared among various ethnic groups throughout the Middle East, including Iraqi Arabs and Kurds. Most people in the Middle East are completely oblivious of their Aramaean ancestry, I'm not insinuating that I completely distrust your theory when you mention that some of the Aramaean tribes were Islamized and/or Arabized. However, this genetic relationship between these groups doesn't necessarily imply that it's solely due to Arab admixture. After all, the origin of the Aramaeans remains unknown, the first written records of the Aramaeans arriving in Mesopotamia were between the 12th and 14th Centuries.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:15:31 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2009, 07:08:56 AM »
Precisely, which was why I think this may also be due to Aramaean admixture shared among various ethnic groups throughout the Middle East, including Iraqi Arabs and Kurds. Most people in the Middle East are completely oblivious of their Aramaean ancestry, I'm not insinuating that I completely distrust your theory when you mention that some of the Aramaean tribes were Islamized and/or Arabized. However, this genetic relationship between these groups doesn't necessarily imply that it's solely due to Arab admixture. After all, the origin of the Aramaeans remains unknown, the first written records of the Aramaeans arriving in Mesopotamia were between the 12th and 14th Centuries.
I agree. The Arameans were a far-flung group. When they did show up in the written records, they inhabited the Mount Bishri region in Syria. They subsequently spread in all directions, settling in the rest of Syria, modern day Israel/Palestine, southeastern Anatolia, and all of Mesopotamia. There are indications that they settled as far afield as modern day Qatar. The Arameans are definitely the "connecting" population among many different groups in the modern middle east. By the way, the link that you have on the genetic makeup of Assyrians is very interesting. I always expected the Assyrians to have a more equal mix of the J1 and J2 haplotypes. But we seem to have a lot more of the J1 than J2. J1 is widely known to be an "Arabian" haplotype and finds its highest frequency among the Arabs of Yemen, and to a lesser extent the other Arab populations of the peninsula, the Dagestanis of Russia being the sole exception. J2 has its origins in the fertile crescent. The Iraqi Arabs (from a southern province) have more of the J2 haplotype than we do...I'm not implying that they are more "native" than we are...they're also about 1/3 J1. I'm just saying that the finding is a little surprising. The other surprising discovery is the high frequency of R1b1b2 haplotype in Assyrians (23%). This haplotype is usually to be found among the populations of Atlantic Europe, particularly in the British isles. We might have cooperated with the English during their time in Iraq, but I don't think we inter-****** with them on such a massive (pardon the term) scale.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2009, 09:40:45 AM »
I agree. The Arameans were a far-flung group. When they did show up in the written records, they inhabited the Mount Bishri region in Syria. They subsequently spread in all directions, settling in the rest of Syria, modern day Israel/Palestine, southeastern Anatolia, and all of Mesopotamia. There are indications that they settled as far afield as modern day Qatar. The Arameans are definitely the "connecting" population among many different groups in the modern middle east. By the way, the link that you have on the genetic makeup of Assyrians is very interesting. I always expected the Assyrians to have a more equal mix of the J1 and J2 haplotypes. But we seem to have a lot more of the J1 than J2. J1 is widely known to be an "Arabian" haplotype and finds its highest frequency among the Arabs of Yemen, and to a lesser extent the other Arab populations of the peninsula, the Dagestanis of Russia being the sole exception. J2 has its origins in the fertile crescent. The Iraqi Arabs (from a southern province) have more of the J2 haplotype than we do...I'm not implying that they are more "native" than we are...they're also about 1/3 J1. I'm just saying that the finding is a little surprising. The other surprising discovery is the high frequency of R1b1b2 haplotype in Assyrians (23%). This haplotype is usually to be found among the populations of Atlantic Europe, particularly in the British isles. We might have cooperated with the English during their time in Iraq, but I don't think we inter-****** with them on such a massive (pardon the term) scale.

Indeed, this high frequency of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) had also overwhelmed me with astonishment, I also expected both J1 and J2 to have comparative ratios. Incidentally, I also belong to Haplogroup J1. Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) is also known as the "Semitic" marker. Because it's almost exclusively found in Semitic Middle Eastern ethnic groups including Assyrians.

Yes, R1b is a Eurasid genetic signature with high frequencies found throughout Western Europe and moderate to high frequencies in Eurasia, where it originated. I think you might also find it interesting that this exact same mutation of Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) is found in Armenian men. My friend has contrived a theory as to why this is, he thinks it that during a period in the Ancient Assyrian Empire, troops were recruited from a province in Southern Armenia who were Assyrianized and were eventually imbibed into the Assyrian Empire, whom remained loyal to the them even after the Fall of Nineveh.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 09:44:29 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2009, 07:00:11 PM »
Indeed, this high frequency of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) had also overwhelmed me with astonishment, I also expected both J1 and J2 to have comparative ratios. Incidentally, I also belong to Haplogroup J1. Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) is also known as the "Semitic" marker. Because it's almost exclusively found in Semitic Middle Eastern ethnic groups including Assyrians.

Yes, R1b is a Eurasid genetic signature with high frequencies found throughout Western Europe and moderate to high frequencies in Eurasia, where it originated. I think you might also find it interesting that this exact same mutation of Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) is found in Armenian men. My friend has contrived a theory as to why this is, he thinks it that during a period in the Ancient Assyrian Empire, troops were recruited from a province in Southern Armenia who were Assyrianized and were eventually imbibed into the Assyrian Empire, whom remained loyal to the them even after the Fall of Nineveh.

Well if there's one thing you can conclude from this study is that the Arab conquerors had a very limited genetic impact on the population of Iraq, even on those people who would one day adopt their religion and language. As for the Assyrianized Armenian soldiers theory it's certainly a possibility. There's been quite a bit of intermarriage between Assyrians and Armenians throughout the centuries.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2009, 10:04:34 PM »
Well if there's one thing you can conclude from this study is that the Arab conquerors had a very limited genetic impact on the population of Iraq, even on those people who would one day adopt their religion and language. As for the Assyrianized Armenian soldiers theory it's certainly a possibility. There's been quite a bit of intermarriage between Assyrians and Armenians throughout the centuries.

I think the bulk of Assyrian people might be descended from Akkadians, hence the high percentages of J1 (Y-DNA). I think this adds credibility to the Akkadians as well as some other groups during the time of Ancient Mesopotamia originating in Arabia. J1's highest frequency is detected in high degrees throughout Saudi Arabia (50% to 70%) and especially Yemen (over 70%).

I find the subject of population genetics interesting, as human beings we all like to think that we're all somehow different from one another whether it be in terms of language, culture, religion, political affiliations, ethnicity etc. I find it funny that some people insist on focusing and acknowledging our differences as oppose to our similarities. Irregardless of what ethnic group these people choose to designate themselves as in the Middle East, virtually everyone in that region is genetically related to one another, some are more closely related, some are more distantly related, but they are, strictly speaking, related nonetheless, we all share a common origin. Of course, this doesn't necessarily suggest that any of us are more or less "Assyrian", "Arab", "Kurdish", "Jewish", etc.

We have to realize that when it comes to Genetics, our genes predate such entitlements. 30,000 years ago in the Middle East, there were no Assyrians, Arabs, Kurds, Jews, Persians, Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Amorites etc. There were only human beings who just happened to migrate from Africa to the Middle East, eventually settling there, and later becoming the well known peoples who inhabit the Middle East today. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate our differences and admire the accomplishments, inventions, culture, and language of our ancestors. But some of us need learn to embrace our similarities, because in the end our genes is what brings us together and no amount of culture, language, religious, political or any other social disparities will diverge us.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 01:45:03 PM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 12:28:57 AM »
I think the bulk of Assyrian people might be descended from Akkadians, hence the high percentages of J1 (Y-DNA). I think this adds credibility to the Akkadians as well as some other groups during the time of Ancient Mesopotamia originating in Arabia. J1's highest frequency is detected in high degrees throughout Saudi Arabia (50% to 70%) and especially Yemen (over 70%).

I find the subject of population genetics interesting, as human beings we all like to think that we're all somehow different from one another whether it be in terms of language, culture, religion, political affiliations, ethnicity etc. I find it funny that some people insist on focusing and acknowledging our differences as oppose to our similarities. Irregardless of what ethnic group these people choose to designate themselves as in the Middle East, virtually everyone in that region is genetically related to one another, some are more closely related, some are more distantly related, but they are, strictly speaking, related nonetheless, we all share a common origin with another. Of course, this doesn't necessarily suggest that any of us are more of less "Assyrian", "Arab", "Kurdish", "Jewish", etc.

We have to realize that when it comes to Genetics, our genes predate such entitlements. 30,000 years ago in the Middle East, there were no Assyrians, Arabs, Kurds, Jews, Persians, Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Amorites etc. There were only human beings who just happened to migrate from Africa to the Middle East, eventually settling there, and later becoming the well known peoples who inhabit the Middle East today. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate our differences and admire the accomplishments, inventions, culture, and language of our ancestors. But some of us need learn to embrace our similarities, because in the end our genes is what brings us together and no amount of culture, language, religious, political or any other social disparities will diverge us.



I really didn't want to respond to you anymore, because your brain is fixed on Ashurians/Akkadians being originally "Arabs", based on your above statement:

"I think this adds credibility to the Akkadians as well as some other groups during the time of Ancient Mesopotamia originating in Arabia"

This statement is as flawed as your untiring and unsuccessful constant attempts at trying to get Ashurians to believe that they're arabs.  No one, not scientists,  anthropologists, archaeologists and nor historians have proved so far that the Akkadians came from the "Arabian peninsula", and until this is proved, you're just wasting yours and other people's time trying to convince us of your theory.  Some of these experts only "assume" that the Akkadians "Probably" came from the Arabian Peninsula.

Sure, the highest degrees of the J1 Subclade exists in Arabia, but you're only seeing it one sided.  You think, "since 50-80% of this J1 subclade exists in Arabia that the only explanation is that the Akkadians must have originated there.  What you fail to see is the other side of the coin, that maybe that large number of the J1 people of Arabia themselves are descendants of the Ashurians of the north, who simply migrated downward at some point in history, rather the other way around (I.E. The Akkadians originating in Arabia).  The glass can be half full or half empty, either way, this J1 haplo group is a SUBCLADE of it's ancestor, J and I, which appeared 30,000 years ago.

The only reason it's named "Arabid" is because of it's high percentage existing in Arabia.  This does not mean ALL peoples with this Gene are Arabs, not by any means.  The point is, the J AND it's off shoots, J1 and J2 exist all over the Middle East and many parts of Europe.  Are we to Assume that the Greeks, Italians, Albanians and Spanish are also originally Arabs just because the Subclades J1 and J2 exist there, and therefore the Arabs are now nearly everyone's ancestors?

This is a preposterous idea!  What you're claiming is ridiculous nonsense and nobody buys it!  Go tell the Greeks, Italians, Albanians that they're really Arabs.
Clearly you're an Arab, if not, then my next guess would be a "Chaldean" because this Church Sect would rather believe that they're Arabs than Ashurians.

You will never Arabize us, not you, not anyone!  I urge ALL Ashurians to study this pointless Haplogroup Crap for themselves and let them explain what it means to them, because none of it says what you're claiming, and in the end, we all have a common ancestor anyway, so I don't know what your infatuation with Arab Identity is, unless like I said, you're an Arab Nationalist or a "Chaldean Wannabe Arab"!

Please people, click on the link below and see what this is all about and if it makes you feel "Arab", because that's all this guy here is doing, repeating nonsense and trying to distort our name and identity as Ashurians, nothing new!  Good Luck to all!  Here's the link to all the jibberish this guy's talking about:
       
www.answers.com/topic/haplogroup-j-y-dna

Let's see if anyone feels any less Ashurian after they study this!
Alen Barsin

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2009, 01:27:39 PM »

I really didn't want to respond to you anymore, because your brain is fixed on Ashurians/Akkadians being originally "Arabs", based on your above statement:

"I think this adds credibility to the Akkadians as well as some other groups during the time of Ancient Mesopotamia originating in Arabia"

This statement is as flawed as your untiring and unsuccessful constant attempts at trying to get Ashurians to believe that they're arabs.  No one, not scientists,  anthropologists, archaeologists and nor historians have proved so far that the Akkadians came from the "Arabian peninsula", and until this is proved, you're just wasting yours and other people's time trying to convince us of your theory.  Some of these experts only "assume" that the Akkadians "Probably" came from the Arabian Peninsula.


I never purported that the Assyrian people were Arabs, you imbecile. How many more times must I reiterate this to you before it gets through that thick, adamant skull of yours. An ARABID is a person who belongs to either the J1 or J2 Haplotypes, it's used in reference to a person's Genotype and/or Phenotype. The reason why carriers of these subclades are referred to as Arabids is largely due to the fact that they originated in the Arabian Peninsula, it doesn't necessarily proclaim that the members of this Haplogroup are of Arab ancestry and/or have any discernible Arab admixture what's so ever.

In case you haven't realized this, the Arabian Peninsula isn't limited to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Yemen, it extends as far North as IRAQ, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon among other countries near the region, you should concentrate on the overall geographic area and ignore the political boundries. I've already proven this to you time and again, but all you've done was denounce the evidence I presented to you with as being "false" or an "assumption". Scientists, specifically geneticists, have already proved to us that J1-M267 is ancestral to the Arabian Peninsula and thus the origins of our earliest ancestors can be pinpointed to the Arabian Plate, the genetic data is consistent with the historical documents that allude to the origin of the Akkadians. I assure you that DNA evidence is a genuine attestation of our pedigree and is significantly far from being a mere "assumption", much less in the same league as one. Your frequent and persistent declarations are nothing more than absurd, delusional, unrealistic empty words. All you've done from the time you joined this forum up until now is convolute and proliferate misinformation about Ancient Mesopotamian history and how we're not Semitic.

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Sure, the highest degrees of the J1 Subclade exists in Arabia, but you're only seeing it one sided.  You think, "since 50-80% of this J1 subclade exists in Arabia that the only explanation is that the Akkadians must have originated there.  What you fail to see is the other side of the coin, that maybe that large number of the J1 people of Arabia themselves are descendants of the Ashurians of the north, who simply migrated downward at some point in history, rather the other way around (I.E. The Akkadians originating in Arabia).  The glass can be half full or half empty, either way, this J1 haplo group is a SUBCLADE of it's ancestor, J and I, which appeared 30,000 years ago.


J1's highest frequencies are indeed observed in Arabia. It's occurrence is ubiquitous throughout the region. In Northern Arabia, it's percentages range from anywhere between 55% to 60%, which imperceptibly escalates the further South you move. In Southern Arabia (including Yemen, Qatar, and Oman) it's prevalence reaches it's highest peak (70% to 80%). This is what leads us to believe that J1-M267 originated there, as it's presence gradually decreases the further you move away from the proximity of the Arabian Peninsula. If what you proposed was true, and that the people inhabiting Arabia today are actually the descendants of the Assyrians and/or Akkadians who migrated South, then obviously, it's highest frequencies would be detected within or near the Fertile Crescent which it is not. Therefore, it's quite clear where it's place of origin is from it's migratory routes and it's rate of dispersal throughout the Middle East.

Correction, J1-M267 is the ancestor of J, which in turn is the ancestor of IJ. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) split from IJ 30,000 years ago, while J1 arose in the Arabian Plate 8,000 to 24,000 years ago.
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The only reason it's named "Arabid" is because of it's high percentage existing in Arabia.  This does not mean ALL peoples with this Gene are Arabs, not by any means. The point is, the J AND it's off shoots, J1 and J2 exist all over the Middle East and many parts of Europe.  Are we to Assume that the Greeks, Italians, Albanians and Spanish are also originally Arabs just because the Subclades J1 and J2 exist there, and therefore the Arabs are now nearly everyone's ancestors?


Exactly my point, but you insist on purposely misconstruing and twisting my words to suit your utterly pitiable and rueful arguments. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's derivatives J1 and J2 are Middle Eastern haplotypes. Some Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Georgians, Armenians, and to a much lesser extent Spaniards belong to the J2-M172 Haplogroup. However, J1's subsistence in Europe is sparse in comparison with it's sister subclade J2, it has a general distribution of around 10% scattered entirely throughout Southern Europe and with the exception of a single isolated pocket in the Dagestan province of Russia. Generally speaking, J1's diffusion in Europe is tenuous and nothing worth writing to home about.

Again, I was never implying that these people are descended from Arabs, the ones who carry J1 may be descended from Arabs and/or North African Moors depending on what portion of Southern Europe you're referring to. J2's existence in Southeastern Europe and parts of the Iberian Peninsula, with the exception of certain mutations of J2 such as J2b are most likely attributed to Phoenician colonial activities. As some mutations of J2 are the same ones found scattered throughout countries in the Middle East, particularly Iraq, Iran, and, the Levant. J2-M172 spread to Europe during the agricultural revolution in the Neolithic Era 3,500 to 18,500 years ago from Mesopotamia (Northern Iraq).

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This is a preposterous idea!  What you're claiming is ridiculous nonsense and nobody buys it!  Go tell the Greeks, Italians, Albanians that they're really Arabs.
Clearly you're an Arab, if not, then my next guess would be a "Chaldean" because this Church Sect would rather believe that they're Arabs than Ashurians.


It's not an idea, it's a fact backed up by empirical evidence and a staggering amount of studies performed by population geneticists. Furthermore, who granted you of being the spokesperson of this community? Who are you to dictate what's nonsense and what isn't, when that's all what you've been disseminating since you arrived here? Are you so indoctrinated into your nationalistic dogma that you've resorted to making remarks about my ethnicity? You truly are pathetic Mr. NimROD, as I mentioned before in another thread, I can care less what you think of me, be it an Arab Nationalist or a "wanna-be Chaldean", whatever that is, it is of no consequence to me and you continue to put more words in my mouth, I said it once and I'll say it again, I NEVER said Assyrians were Arabs nor has the thought ever crossed my mind that the Assyrians were Arabs.

For the record, I'm opposed to any form of nationalism, I'm sorry, I'm an individual and I don't abide by any form of group think mentality.


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You will never Arabize us, not you, not anyone!  I urge ALL Ashurians to study this pointless Haplogroup Crap for themselves and let them explain what it means to them, because none of it says what you're claiming, and in the end, we all have a common ancestor anyway, so I don't know what your infatuation with Arab Identity is, unless like I said, you're an Arab Nationalist or a "Chaldean Wannabe Arab"!


I was never attempting to Arabize you or any other Assyrian person. I also encourage anyone and everyone to study the sources for themselves, as a matter of fact, at the end of this post, I will provide as many links that contain information regarding  Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's subclades as I can possibly obtain in order for everyone who is interested to more lucidly understand what I've been talking about. In addition, I will also furnish maps of the diffusion of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's derivatives J1 and J2. You are correct to say that we all share a common ancestor, each and every human being is part of an extended family. Some people are more Genotypically and/or Phenotypically related to each other than others, we, as Assyrians are more genetically related to various ethnic groups in the Middle East, especially Levantine Arabs. I am not infatuated nor interested in the Arab identity. I am not an Arab and I am not a Chaldean. I am a Nestorian Assyrian, who is willing to learn from and inform anyone pertaining to any subject matter of interest.

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Please people, click on the link below and see what this is all about and if it makes you feel "Arab", because that's all this guy here is doing, repeating nonsense and trying to distort our name and identity as Ashurians, nothing new!  Good Luck to all!  Here's the link to all the jibberish this guy's talking about:


I implore everyone to click on this link, inform yourself, and learn that the statements this fool is propagating is complete balderdash. I am not distorting our name or our identity, many of our earliest ancestors originated from the Arabian Plate, but rest assured this does not in any way, shape, and/or form defame or disgrace our identity. We are an exceptionally unique group of people, who share a distinct culture, tradition, and ethnic status. We should recognize and applaud our differences, but we should also embrace our similarities, because in the end we're all human beings and we're all essentially branches of the same tree.
        
www.answers.com/topic/haplogroup-j-y-dna

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Let's see if anyone feels any less Ashurian after they study this!


I very much doubt anyone will feel more or less "Ashurian" as that's not what I intend to do.


http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ09.html
http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=8
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/J.html
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#J
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html (Click below where it says "Genetic Markers", upon doing this, notice near the top where it states "Show", make sure to check Y chromosome and uncheck mtDNA, now scroll down the options to where it says "Y chromosome Haplogroup J, J1, and/or J2").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.reference.com/browse/Haplogroup+J1+%28Y-DNA%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.reference.com/browse/Haplogroup+J2+%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf



Distribution of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)



Distribution of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA)



Distribution of Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 01:58:32 PM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 04:11:00 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to you anymore, because your brain is fixed on Ashurians/Akkadians being originally "Arabs", based on your above statement:

"I think this adds credibility to the Akkadians as well as some other groups during the time of Ancient Mesopotamia originating in Arabia"

This statement is as flawed as your untiring and unsuccessful constant attempts at trying to get Ashurians to believe that they're arabs.  No one, not scientists,  anthropologists, archaeologists and nor historians have proved so far that the Akkadians came from the "Arabian peninsula", and until this is proved, you're just wasting yours and other people's time trying to convince us of your theory.  Some of these experts only "assume" that the Akkadians "Probably" came from the Arabian Peninsula.

Sure, the highest degrees of the J1 Subclade exists in Arabia, but you're only seeing it one sided.  You think, "since 50-80% of this J1 subclade exists in Arabia that the only explanation is that the Akkadians must have originated there.  What you fail to see is the other side of the coin, that maybe that large number of the J1 people of Arabia themselves are descendants of the Ashurians of the north, who simply migrated downward at some point in history, rather the other way around (I.E. The Akkadians originating in Arabia).  The glass can be half full or half empty, either way, this J1 haplo group is a SUBCLADE of it's ancestor, J and I, which appeared 30,000 years ago.

The only reason it's named "Arabid" is because of it's high percentage existing in Arabia.  This does not mean ALL peoples with this Gene are Arabs, not by any means.  The point is, the J AND it's off shoots, J1 and J2 exist all over the Middle East and many parts of Europe.  Are we to Assume that the Greeks, Italians, Albanians and Spanish are also originally Arabs just because the Subclades J1 and J2 exist there, and therefore the Arabs are now nearly everyone's ancestors?

This is a preposterous idea!  What you're claiming is ridiculous nonsense and nobody buys it!  Go tell the Greeks, Italians, Albanians that they're really Arabs.
Clearly you're an Arab, if not, then my next guess would be a "Chaldean" because this Church Sect would rather believe that they're Arabs than Ashurians.

You will never Arabize us, not you, not anyone!  I urge ALL Ashurians to study this pointless Haplogroup Crap for themselves and let them explain what it means to them, because none of it says what you're claiming, and in the end, we all have a common ancestor anyway, so I don't know what your infatuation with Arab Identity is, unless like I said, you're an Arab Nationalist or a "Chaldean Wannabe Arab"!

Please people, click on the link below and see what this is all about and if it makes you feel "Arab", because that's all this guy here is doing, repeating nonsense and trying to distort our name and identity as Ashurians, nothing new!  Good Luck to all!  Here's the link to all the jibberish this guy's talking about:
       
www.answers.com/topic/haplogroup-j-y-dna

Let's see if anyone feels any less Ashurian after they study this!
Due to our not so amicable history with Arab Muslims, we Assyrians tend to react with anger whenever someone suggests any sort of connection between us. But we should not project present prejudices to things that happened in the past. Remember we're talking about population movements and genes that arose thousands of years before the appearance of Islam and the Arabic language. In addition to the genetic evidence, there's also some linguistic evidence that points to a southern origin for the Akkadians. But remember, when the Akkadians migrated out of the Arabian peninsula over 5000 years ago, there were no Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula to speak of nor an Arabic language that any Arab today or even in Muhammad's day would recognize. In fact, it's possible that the languages spoken in the region at that time might have more closely resembled Akkadian or Amorite than the Arabic spoken in Muhammad's time. The emergence of these haplotypes predates the formation of any ethnic groups in the middle east by several millennia.

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 04:06:51 PM »
LOL @ "Unknown_User" = 'Assyrian' from the stormfront forums   :loool:  excuse my surit but sellllllllllllaaaaaaaawa bro why do you seemingly hate yourself and pander to those Euro-pee-on purists the way you do?  Accept who you are, the man from the middle.  No not Euro white, no not "sand nigga", but a Caucasoid, non-pasty nasty white, mediterranean Assyrian mack  :mrgreen:

J1 = Bedouin Arabs
J2 = Indigenous people from Mesopotamia, Levant (Akkadian AssyrioBabylonians, Phoenicians....Hebrews and Arameans I suspect are 50/50)

Assyrians are definitely and obviously more J2

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 08:29:57 AM »
LOL @ "Unknown_User" = 'Assyrian' from the stormfront forums   :loool:  excuse my surit but sellllllllllllaaaaaaaawa bro why do you seemingly hate yourself and pander to those Euro-pee-on purists the way you do? 


While I am a member of the Stormfront Community, I do not adhere to any of their asinine philosophies and have rarely contributed to their threads on the topics they discuss. I simply read them for entertainment and occasionally, educational purposes. Secondly, I am not the user known as "Assyrian". Although I am acquainted with him, I don't comport myself the way he does, I merely adopted his persona for comedic value. I admit, some of his posts on Stormfront do seem maniacal at times, although he does make some valid points from time to time.

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Accept who you are, the man from the middle.  No not Euro white, no not "sand nigga", but a Caucasoid, non-pasty nasty white, mediterranean Assyrian mack  :mrgreen:


Oh but I do, I am a J1 Arabid Semitid Assyrian, just as my Akkadian forefathers were. I am more than gratified not be a member of the Europid or Eurasid Naked Babarian racial groups (Kurds, Afghans etc.). Also, we are not "Caucasoids". I prefer not to use obsolete 19th Century racial classifications as they are no longer in anthropological much less scientific use. They have been deemed inaccurate by the scientific community due to several inconsistencies from differing physical characteristics within racial groups, which is one of the reasons why scientists are more apt to favor Genetic genealogy as opposed to Anthropology when it comes to punctiliously determining what racial and/or ethnic group(s) a person belongs to.

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J1 = Bedouin Arabs
J2 = Indigenous people from Mesopotamia, Levant (Akkadian AssyrioBabylonians, Phoenicians....Hebrews and Arameans I suspect are 50/50)

Assyrians are definitely and obviously more J2


Uh, no.

J1= Arabid Semitid

J2 = Arabid Syrid

First of all, the J1 Haplogroup is not limited nor exclusive to Arabs, it is found in high frequencies among Semitic ethnic groups in general, including Assyrians and ethnic groups descended from the Hebrews in the Middle East.

Moreover, the Babylonians, who were essentially descended from the Amorites and the Assyrians being predominantly descended from Akkadians in all likelihood belonged to Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA), the native population in Mesopotamia (Sumerians) preceding the besiegement and advent of the arrival of the Akkadians and Amorites were J2 Arabid Syrids, we know this because the populations that demonstrate high percentages of J2 (Y-DNA) are found in and around the area that was previously known as the Fertile Crescent. The archeological evidence coincides with the genetic evidence as it transcribes the agricultural practices in Ancient Sumer. The expansion and magnification of the agricultural revolution during the Neolithic Period is what led to the propagation of this haplotype in North, Northeast Africa, Southern Europe, and across the Near East.

The accession of the Akkadians and Amorites subjugation, incorporation, and imposition of their culture and language among other influencing factors upon the preexisting populations of Ancient Sumer would be succeeded by the debut of the Assyrian and Babylonian Empires. The Assyrians and Babylonians were bidder rivals and contrary to popular belief, they did not always communicate in the same language. The Assyrians spoke an Eastern dialect of Akkadian and the Babylonians during the Old Babylonian Empire spoke a dialect of the Amorite language indicating that they were subsequently succeeded by the Amorite Kingdoms in Mesopotamia.


Also, the conclusions of this study performed by Dr. Elias and Mary Yonan, who also executed the analysis of Assyrian Heritage DNA Project on Family Tree DNA.com indicates that the main haplotype Assyrian males belong to, including myself is J1-M267.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm
"Trust those searching for the truth, not those who've found it."

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2009, 02:31:27 PM »
While I am a member of the Stormfront Community, I do not adhere to any of their asinine philosophies and have rarely contributed to their threads on the topics they discuss. I simply read them for entertainment and occasionally, educational purposes. Secondly, I am not the user known as "Assyrian". Although I am acquainted with him, I don't comport myself the way he does, I merely adopted his persona for comedic value. I admit, some of his posts on Stormfront do seem maniacal at times, although he does make some valid points from time to time.


I wasn't born yesterday bruh, he is you, you are him ("slim with the tilted brim, whats my mf'n name...snoop dogggy dogggggg"  :mrgreen:).  Your explanation of "adopting his persona" is hillarious.   You use the same font coloring in reference to the different haplo types.  Too funny.  At first I didnt think that guy was Assyrian, because he was in some strange war with the Greeks insisting they were "Somalid" (Somalian basically)  :loool: a super troll extraordinaire. But whatever, I aint mad at ya.

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Oh but I do, I am a J1 Arabid Semitid Assyrian, just as my Akkadian forefathers were. I am more than gratified not be a member of the Europid or Eurasid Naked Babarian racial groups (Kurds, Afghans etc.). Also, we are not "Caucasoids". I prefer not to use obsolete 19th Century racial classifications as they are no longer in anthropological much less scientific use. They have been deemed inaccurate by the scientific community due to several inconsistencies from differing physical characteristics within racial groups, which is one of the reasons why scientists are more apt to favor Genetic genealogy as opposed to Anthropology when it comes to punctiliously determining what racial and/or ethnic group(s) a person belongs to.


I don't necessarily have a dispute with this, since I'm just learning myself and can't really argue these points.  Just have my opinions and very little research done. Will get back to you I suppose...

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Uh, no.

J1= Arabid Semitid

J2 = Arabid Syrid

First of all, the J1 Haplogroup is not limited nor exclusive to Arabs, it is found in high frequencies among Semitic ethnic groups in general, including Assyrians and ethnic groups descended from the Hebrews in the Middle East.

Moreover, the Babylonians, who were essentially descended from the Amorites and the Assyrians being predominantly descended from Akkadians in all likelihood belonged to Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA), the native population in Mesopotamia (Sumerians) preceding the besiegement and advent of the arrival of the Akkadians and Amorites were J2 Arabid Syrids, we know this because the populations that demonstrate high percentages of J2 (Y-DNA) are found in and around the area that was previously known as the Fertile Crescent. The archeological evidence coincides with the genetic evidence as it transcribes the agricultural practices in Ancient Sumer. The expansion and magnification of the agricultural revolution during the Neolithic Period is what led to the propagation of this haplotype in North, Northeast Africa, Southern Europe, and across the Near East.

The accession of the Akkadians and Amorites subjugation, incorporation, and imposition of their culture and language among other influencing factors upon the preexisting populations of Ancient Sumer would be succeeded by the debut of the Assyrian and Babylonian Empires. The Assyrians and Babylonians were bidder rivals and contrary to popular belief, they did not always communicate in the same language. The Assyrians spoke an Eastern dialect of Akkadian and the Babylonians during the Old Babylonian Empire spoke a dialect of the Amorite language indicating that they were subsequently succeeded by the Amorite Kingdoms in Mesopotamia.


Also, the conclusions of this study performed by Dr. Elias and Mary Yonan, who also executed the analysis of Assyrian Heritage DNA Project on Family Tree DNA.com indicates that the main haplotype Assyrian males belong to, including myself is J1-M267.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm


147 individuals tested...don't know how reliable that is, and judging from what that reported, Assyrians from Turkey were left out.  I myself am a A-COE with a background from Turkey.   I don't think much J-1 reached there.

But anyhow, my ass-umption  :lol: was based on how most Assyrians look NOTHING like Bedouins (dark, little body hair, skinny/smallish frame).  Majority Assyrians are more light skin, stocky upper body, thick lower body and thick hair...the type that you can say is made to survive in the northern mesopotamian mountains.  I assumed we are naturally J-2, while the foreigners J-1.  NOW, whats intriguing is the 30% of European genes (?) R1a1 and R1b1b2.  What I take from that report is we are 41% J1 Arabs + 30% Europeans = resembling the Mediterranean J2= we are mutts?  Remember, Im fairly new to this so please refrain from flame  :)

« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 02:34:01 PM by tyrusthomas »

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2009, 08:27:52 PM »
I wasn't born yesterday bruh, he is you, you are him ("slim with the tilted brim, whats my mf'n name...snoop dogggy dogggggg"  :mrgreen:).  Your explanation of "adopting his persona" is hillarious.   You use the same font coloring in reference to the different haplo types.  Too funny.  At first I didnt think that guy was Assyrian, because he was in some strange war with the Greeks insisting they were "Somalid" (Somalian basically)  :loool: a super troll extraordinaire. But whatever, I aint mad at ya.


Apparently, it seems that you wish to compromise my identity by coordinating my posts to Assyrian's. The only thing I find amusing is your insipid judgment of my demeanor by formulating a correlation between me color-coding terms for describing Genetic racial types and an Assyrian purist from Stormfront, my, my aren't you observant. For your information, the reason I color code those terms is because they befit with the populations that exhibit the Genotype and/or Phenotype of the haplogroups that represent them and simplifies the categorization between them. Interrogating and proposing false accusations towards me solely based on how I change the color of my font when typing certain words is a testament to your vapidity. While I do go under different moniker, I assure you that "Assyrian" is not one of them, whether you wish to accredit as to what I state is true about my ipseity or not is completely trivial to me.

Likewise, if you had paid more attention to Assyrian's posts, you'd noticed that he coined the term Somalid as a substitute for the Meditid racial type commonly found in it's highest frequencies in Somalia with a frequency of over 80%. It is also observed throughout North and Northeast Africa as well as Southern Europe, especially in Southern Greece and Crete where it is observed at 40% or more. It is also present in very low frequencies in the Arabian Plate, roughly around 10%. The Meditid race is characterized by high percentages of Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA).





Quote
I don't necessarily have a dispute with this, since I'm just learning myself and can't really argue these points.  Just have my opinions and very little research done. Will get back to you I suppose...


Very well.

Quote
147 individuals tested...don't know how reliable that is, and judging from what that reported, Assyrians from Turkey were left out.  I myself am a A-COE with a background from Turkey.   I don't think much J-1 reached there.

But anyhow, my ass-umption  :lol: was based on how most Assyrians look NOTHING like Bedouins (dark, little body hair, skinny/smallish frame).  Majority Assyrians are more light skin, stocky upper body, thick lower body and thick hair...the type that you can say is made to survive in the northern mesopotamian mountains.  I assumed we are naturally J-2, while the foreigners J-1.  NOW, whats intriguing is the 30% of European genes (?) R1a1 and R1b1b2.  What I take from that report is we are 41% J1 Arabs + 30% Europeans = resembling the Mediterranean J2= we are mutts?  Remember, Im fairly new to this so please refrain from flame  :)


I wouldn't completely rule out that samples from Turkey might have been retrieved, the study does mention that they collected samples from Assyrians living in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and "diaspora". By "diaspora" they're probably referring to other surrounding nations in the Levant, which would include parts of Turkey, of course, unless you're Turkish in which case it wouldn't matter because the genetic integrity of the Turks is completely blemished. J1 (Y-DNA) only accounts for a meager 12.5% of the total population of Turkey, so you are correct in your implication that J1's presence in Turkey is nearly absent.

As for the basis of your extrapolation on the general appearance of Assyrian people, I'm sure you're already aware of the fact that there are noticeable physical distinctions found amongst Assyrians that differentiate them between other Middle Eastern ethnic groups, including some Bedouins. However, the same can be said for the ethnic groups inhabiting the Levant, whom also vary similarly to how the Assyrians do in their guise. Although, what you need to realize is, a person's Phenotype can be influenced by environmental factors, sometimes exorbitantly, but is usually minor unless they reside in a specific area for a long period of time. But be that as it may, it should not be used as a justification for determining what racial group(s) a person belongs to. As I mentioned before, Phenotypes are subject to variational changes that occur due to adaptation within a given environment over a prolonged period of time, in addition this can also have an effect on their physical development. So the question of whether our physical traits are distinguishable from related ethnic groups or not is irrelevant as a person's appearance is often deceiving. A person's Genotype however, is the utmost sophisticated method on truly deducing one's race, as a person's genes remain unchanged for millennia. Furthermore, the occurrence of R1 in the Assyrian population is mediocre, constituting only 30.7% of the Assyrian population according to that study. The presence could be attributed to the soldiers who were recruited from Southern Armenia who were subdued and assimilated into the Assyrian Empire, or it could be due to recent intermarriage between Armenian men and Assyrian women as Sgh10 mentioned in his previous post. Although, I am not sure how long this practice has been endeavored. Also, the mutation of R1a found in the Assyrian population is analogous with the ones found in Kurds, Afghans, and some Persians. Keep in mind that a person's Genotype won't necessarily correspond to their Phenotype, so the propinquity of R1 doesn't necessarily imply that they'll resemble Europeans as a result.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 07:23:38 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2009, 09:08:13 PM »
Unknown_User...I agree that the Sumerians were probably J2, but I don't know if the Amorites had more of a demographic impact on Sumeria than they did on Assyria. Looking at the historical record, they seem to have infiltrated both areas quite extensively. They established a dynasty around Assur during the 1900's b.c. as well as founding a dynasty in Babylonia (Hammurabi was an Amorite). The Akkadians, when they did appear on the historical scene, were based somewhat to the north of the Sumerians but had an extensive presence in the Sumerian heartland which only became stronger as they came to dominate the region. Though they did have colonies in Assyria, I would expect a much stronger genetic impact on the Sumerian region. As for language, both of them spoke Akkadian, albeit different dialects of the language. Both of them switched to Aramaic at around the same time. There is another explanation for why the Assyrians have more J1. Several centuries prior to the birth of Muhammad, Arab tribes (mainly from modern day Yemen) had been moving into Syria and Iraq. One of these tribes was the Banu Lakhm, who established an Arab christian kingdom in modern day southern Iraq. They were nestorian Christians. It's possible that with the coming of Islam, some of these Arab Christians assimilated into the Assyrian community, adding more J1 to our gene pool.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 09:11:44 PM by sgh10 »

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2009, 06:07:11 PM »
Unknown_User...I agree that the Sumerians were probably J2, but I don't know if the Amorites had more of a demographic impact on Sumeria than they did on Assyria. Looking at the historical record, they seem to have infiltrated both areas quite extensively. They established a dynasty around Assur during the 1900's b.c. as well as founding a dynasty in Babylonia (Hammurabi was an Amorite). The Akkadians, when they did appear on the historical scene, were based somewhat to the north of the Sumerians but had an extensive presence in the Sumerian heartland which only became stronger as they came to dominate the region. Though they did have colonies in Assyria, I would expect a much stronger genetic impact on the Sumerian region. As for language, both of them spoke Akkadian, albeit different dialects of the language. Both of them switched to Aramaic at around the same time. There is another explanation for why the Assyrians have more J1. Several centuries prior to the birth of Muhammad, Arab tribes (mainly from modern day Yemen) had been moving into Syria and Iraq. One of these tribes was the Banu Lakhm, who established an Arab christian kingdom in modern day southern Iraq. They were nestorian Christians. It's possible that with the coming of Islam, some of these Arab Christians assimilated into the Assyrian community, adding more J1 to our gene pool.

I agree, of course, you have to admit, the Amorites did leave an ardent imprint on the Babylonians. I like to think of Babylonia as more of an Amorite faction as opposed to Assyria, which had a manifested Akkadian influence, although each of these factions were established by the Akkadians, the Amorites were essentially the ones to lay the foundation of the Babylonian Empire upon seizing control of it in 1900 B.C. There's no doubt in my mind that the Sumerians aided in the development of the Akkadian, Amorite, Assyrian and Babylonian Empires, it was from them, that they learned agriculture, written language, science, mathematics, and law. Speaking of law, scholars believe that Sumerian law was adopted and appropriated into the Babylonian Empire which led to the creation of the Code of Hammurabi. As for the genetic impact, seeing as how J2 is decumbent and constitutes only a fraction of the Modern Assyrian population, it's difficult to definitively explain why that is, although it does indeed demonstrate high frequencies in Northern Iraq in Iraqi Arabs, Kurds, among other ethnic groups. It may be on the grounds of experiencing feelings of relegation from their positions within these newly developed Empires. As for your theory of why we exhibit high percentages of J1 as opposed to J2, while it is an interesting theory, I find that the high degrees of J1 are more attributable to Akkadian ancestry, the reason why I find this explanation more feasible is because of the vivid linguistic similarities between the Akkadian language and the 'Adid language spoken by the A'ad tribes in what is now eastern Yemen, western Oman, and parts of the Dhofar Mountains over the Arabian Sea. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility of outside influence on our genetic integrity, which resulted in higher instances of Haplogroup J1.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 06:15:34 PM by Unknown_User »
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Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2009, 07:58:46 PM »
I agree, of course, you have to admit, the Amorites did leave an ardent imprint on the Babylonians. I like to think of Babylonia as more of an Amorite faction as opposed to Assyria, which had a manifested Akkadian influence, although each of these factions were established by the Akkadians, the Amorites were essentially the ones to lay the foundation of the Babylonian Empire upon seizing control of it in 1900 B.C. There's no doubt in my mind that the Sumerians aided in the development of the Akkadian, Amorite, Assyrian and Babylonian Empires, it was from them, that they learned agriculture, written language, science, mathematics, and law. Speaking of law, scholars believe that Sumerian law was adopted and appropriated into the Babylonian Empire which led to the creation of the Code of Hammurabi. As for the genetic impact, seeing as how J2 is decumbent and constitutes only a fraction of the Modern Assyrian population, it's difficult to definitively explain why that is, although it does indeed demonstrate high frequencies in Northern Iraq in Iraqi Arabs, Kurds, among other ethnic groups. It may be on the grounds of experiencing feelings of relegation from their positions within these newly developed Empires. As for your theory of why we exhibit high percentages of J1 as opposed to J2, while it is an interesting theory, I find that the high degrees of J1 are more attributable to Akkadian ancestry, the reason why I find this explanation more feasible is because of the vivid linguistic similarities between the Akkadian language and the 'Adid language spoken by the A'ad tribes in what is now eastern Yemen, western Oman, and parts of the Dhofar Mountains over the Arabian Sea. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility of outside influence on our genetic integrity, which resulted in higher instances of Haplogroup J1.
As I understand it, the Sumerians, with the exception of the Ur III state, never established a large empire. The semitic groups that supplanted them did a better job at that. I think the Amorites, under different dynasties, had a region wide impact. The history of Assyria really comes into 'sharp-focus' with the establishment of an Amorite kingdom centered around Assur by Shamshi-Adad I (1800's b.c.). And of Course the Amorite dynasty in Babylonia was no less important to the history of that region of Mesopotamia. Again, I have to stress that, if the history books are correct, the Akkadians had more of a demographic presence in Babylonia than they did in Assyria. I absolutely agree that much of that J1 comes from the Akkadians but I'm just saying that these Arab Christian tribes whose origins were in Yemen probably did contribute a bit to our gene pool. In any case, if the Akkadians were originally from modern day Yemen/Oman, how would we be able to distinguish their J1 from that of later migrants who hailed from the same region.

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2009, 11:32:54 PM »
I never purported that the Assyrian people were Arabs, you imbecile. How many more times must I reiterate this to you before it gets through that thick, adamant skull of yours. An ARABID is a person who belongs to either the J1 or J2 Haplotypes, it's used in reference to a person's Genotype and/or Phenotype. The reason why carriers of these subclades are referred to as Arabids is largely due to the fact that they originated in the Arabian Peninsula, it doesn't necessarily proclaim that the members of this Haplogroup are of Arab ancestry and/or have any discernible Arab admixture what's so ever.

Thanks for clearing that up so sweetly, Arshloch!

In case you haven't realized this, the Arabian Peninsula isn't limited to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Yemen, it extends as far North as IRAQ, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon among other countries near the region, you should concentrate on the overall geographic area and ignore the political boundries. I've already proven this to you time and again, but all you've done was denounce the evidence I presented to you with as being "false" or an "assumption". Scientists, specifically geneticists, have already proved to us that J1-M267 is ancestral to the Arabian Peninsula and thus the origins of our earliest ancestors can be pinpointed to the Arabian Plate, the genetic data is consistent with the historical documents that allude to the origin of the Akkadians. I assure you that DNA evidence is a genuine attestation of our pedigree and is significantly far from being a mere "assumption", much less in the same league as one. Your frequent and persistent declarations are nothing more than absurd, delusional, unrealistic empty words. All you've done from the time you joined this forum up until now is convolute and proliferate misinformation about Ancient Mesopotamian history and how we're not Semitic.

And again I tell you, "semitic" is a useless and flawed term, especially for us because the source of it exists no where else outside the Old testament, which is not a Scientific book at all.

Correction, J1-M267 is the ancestor of J, which in turn is the ancestor of IJ. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) split from IJ 30,000 years ago, while J1 arose in the Arabian Plate 8,000 to 24,000 years ago.
Exactly my point, but you insist on purposely misconstruing and twisting my words to suit your utterly pitiable and rueful arguments. Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's derivatives J1 and J2 are Middle Eastern haplotypes. Some Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Georgians, Armenians, and to a much lesser extent Spaniards belong to the J2-M172 Haplogroup. However, J1's subsistence in Europe is sparse in comparison with it's sister subclade J2, it has a general distribution of around 10% scattered entirely throughout Southern Europe and with the exception of a single isolated pocket in the Dagestan province of Russia. Generally speaking, J1's diffusion in Europe is tenuous and nothing worth writing to home about.

Blah Blah Blah.....  What is your point man?!  If you already agree that we all have a common origin, then what's the point of your constant blabbering about this Genetic crap?  You said it yourself, we all have a common ancestor, and our genes exist not just in the Middle East and Asia minor, but in Europe as well.
Who Cares?  You are who you believe you are, regardless of these stupid MAN-MADE terms!  You are your name, your culture, your land, your language and your history, that's it!  You're constant dissecting of genes and talks of who migrated where is frickin pointless!  Our history begins in Ashur, if you believe to be an Ashurian/Assyrian, and their cities are as old as 5000 BC, and there's NO WAY to prove where they came from.  This is all based on assumption.  Everyone and Anyone else also came from somewhere else, other than the place they occupy today, who cares?!  Migrations have been going on since man came down from the tree and took his 1st step on land.


Again, I was never implying that these people are descended from Arabs, the ones who carry J1 may be descended from Arabs and/or North African Moors depending on what portion of Southern Europe you're referring to. J2's existence in Southeastern Europe and parts of the Iberian Peninsula, with the exception of certain mutations of J2 such as J2b are most likely attributed to Phoenician colonial activities. As some mutations of J2 are the same ones found scattered throughout countries in the Middle East, particularly Iraq, Iran, and, the Levant. J2-M172 spread to Europe during the agricultural revolution in the Neolithic Era 3,500 to 18,500 years ago from Mesopotamia (Northern Iraq).
 
:sleep1:


It's not an idea, it's a fact backed up by empirical evidence and a staggering amount of studies performed by population geneticists. Furthermore, who granted you of being the spokesperson of this community?

The same people who granted you :giggle:


Who are you to dictate what's nonsense and what isn't, when that's all what you've been disseminating since you arrived here? Are you so indoctrinated into your nationalistic dogma that you've resorted to making remarks about my ethnicity?

You act like an Arabist, maybe I'm wrong?

You truly are pathetic Mr. NimROD,

That's right, use the derogatory term that was made up by the Ancient jews to portray us as evil!  You're doing a great job for them!


as I mentioned before in another thread, I can care less what you think of me, be it an Arab Nationalist or a "wanna-be Chaldean", whatever that is, it is of no consequence to me and you continue to put more words in my mouth, I said it once and I'll say it again, I NEVER said Assyrians were Arabs nor has the thought ever crossed my mind that the Assyrians were Arabs.

And why can't we leave it at that?

For the record, I'm opposed to any form of nationalism, I'm sorry, I'm an individual and I don't abide by any form of group think mentality.

Not even when your entire people's future depends on it?  Suite yourself.

 
I was never attempting to Arabize you or any other Assyrian person. I also encourage anyone and everyone to study the sources for themselves, as a matter of fact, at the end of this post, I will provide as many links that contain information regarding  Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's subclades as I can possibly obtain in order for everyone who is interested to more lucidly understand what I've been talking about. In addition, I will also furnish maps of the diffusion of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA) and it's derivatives J1 and J2. You are correct to say that we all share a common ancestor, each and every human being is part of an extended family. Some people are more Genotypically and/or Phenotypically related to each other than others, we, as Assyrians are more genetically related to various ethnic groups in the Middle East, especially Levantine Arabs. I am not infatuated nor interested in the Arab identity. I am not an Arab and I am not a Chaldean. I am a Nestorian Assyrian, who is willing to learn from and inform anyone pertaining to any subject matter of interest.

HalleLuya!

I implore everyone to click on this link, inform yourself, and learn that the statements this fool is propagating is complete balderdash.

Again with the insults, have I managed to anger you in some way?  C'mon, loosen up a bit will ya?


I am not distorting our name or our identity, many of our earliest ancestors originated from the Arabian Plate, but rest assured this does not in any way, shape, and/or form defame or disgrace our identity. We are an exceptionally unique group of people, who share a distinct culture, tradition, and ethnic status. We should recognize and applaud our differences, but we should also embrace our similarities, because in the end we're all human beings and we're all essentially branches of the same tree.

Well said, although it depends which ancestors you're talking about.
        
www.answers.com/topic/haplogroup-j-y-dna

I very much doubt anyone will feel more or less "Ashurian" as that's not what I intend to do.


http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ09.html
http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.genebase.com/tutorial/item.php?tuId=8
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/J.html
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#J
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html (Click below where it says "Genetic Markers", upon doing this, notice near the top where it states "Show", make sure to check Y chromosome and uncheck mtDNA, now scroll down the options to where it says "Y chromosome Haplogroup J, J1, and/or J2").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_%28Y-DNA%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.reference.com/browse/Haplogroup+J1+%28Y-DNA%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.reference.com/browse/Haplogroup+J2+%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf



Distribution of Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)



Distribution of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA)



Distribution of Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)
Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2009, 11:44:19 PM »
Apparently, it seems that you wish to compromise my identity by coordinating my posts to Assyrian's. The only thing I find amusing is your insipid judgment of my demeanor by formulating a correlation between me color-coding terms for describing Genetic racial types and an Assyrian purist from Stormfront, my, my aren't you observant. For your information, the reason I color code those terms is because they befit with the populations that exhibit the Genotype and/or Phenotype of the haplogroups that represent them and simplifies the categorization between them. Interrogating and proposing false accusations towards me solely based on how I change the color of my font when typing certain words is a testament to your vapidity. While I do go under different moniker, I assure you that "Assyrian" is not one of them, whether you wish to accredit as to what I state is true about my ipseity or not is completely trivial to me.

Likewise, if you had paid more attention to Assyrian's posts, you'd noticed that he coined the term Somalid as a substitute for the Meditid racial type commonly found in it's highest frequencies in Somalia with a frequency of over 80%. It is also observed throughout North and Northeast Africa as well as Southern Europe, especially in Southern Greece and Crete where it is observed at 40% or more. It is also present in very low frequencies in the Arabian Plate, roughly around 10%. The Meditid race is characterized by high percentages of Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA).



hehe...if you  are Assyrian and not that guy on stormfront, then I truly apologize.  You are spreading some good knowledge here and I appreciate it. basima  :)




Quote
I wouldn't completely rule out that samples from Turkey might have been retrieved, the study does mention that they collected samples from Assyrians living in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and "diaspora". By "diaspora" they're probably referring to other surrounding nations in the Levant, which would include parts of Turkey, of course, unless you're Turkish in which case it wouldn't matter because the genetic integrity of the Turks is completely blemished. J1 (Y-DNA) only accounts for a meager 12.5% of the total population of Turkey, so you are correct in your implication that J1's presence in Turkey is nearly absent.

As for the basis of your extrapolation on the general appearance of Assyrian people, I'm sure you're already aware of the fact that there are noticeable physical distinctions found amongst Assyrians that differentiate them between other Middle Eastern ethnic groups, including some Bedouins. However, the same can be said for the ethnic groups inhabiting the Levant, whom also vary similarly to how the Assyrians do in their guise. Although, what you need to realize is, a person's Phenotype can be influenced by environmental factors, sometimes exorbitantly, but is usually minor unless they reside in a specific area for a long period of time. But be that as it may, it should not be used as a justification for determining what racial group(s) a person belongs to. As I mentioned before, Phenotypes are subject to variational changes that occur due to adaptation within a given environment over a prolonged period of time, in addition this can also have an effect on their physical development. So the question of whether our physical traits are distinguishable from related ethnic groups or not is irrelevant as a person's appearance is often deceiving. A person's Genotype however, is the utmost sophisticated method on truly deducing one's race, as a person's genes remain unchanged for millennia. Furthermore, the occurrence of R1 in the Assyrian population is mediocre, constituting only 30.7% of the Assyrian population according to that study. The presence could be attributed to the soldiers who were recruited from Southern Armenia who were subdued and assimilated into the Assyrian Empire, or it could be due to recent intermarriage between Armenian men and Assyrian women as Sgh10 mentioned in his previous post. Although, I am not sure how long this practice has been endeavored. Also, the mutation of R1a found in the Assyrian population is analogous with the ones found in Kurds, Afghans, and some Persians. Keep in mind that a person's Genotype won't necessarily correspond to their Phenotype, so the propinquity of R1 doesn't necessarily imply that they'll resemble Europeans as a result.


gottttcchaaa....I'm really learning a lot.  As far as the R1 gene, before I even got into genetics, I've known through research that the "Cimmerians" lived on the borders of the Assyrian empire, and they were known for having red hair.  (many assyrians with red hair!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Also mentions how Assyrians recruited them to fight AGAINST Armenians (Urartu).

couple more ?s here

- have you heard of "Leuco-Syrians"? They are supposedly "White Syrians". Would these be the J2 the Akkadians mingled with (some Sumerians depicted with Blue eyes), or a foreign group? 

- as far as j1 and j2, how closely related are they?  I understand they are of the same color coding.  And, if J2 is in fact YOUNGER than J1 by 20,000 years, is it possible that J1 was in Mesopotamia first (again Sumerians, known as "black heads" FWIW), and then Syrids moved southward, i.e. from Anatolia?

So far, my only dispute is over the term "Arabid". While I realize its in reference to the Arab plate, yet and still, Akkadians/Assyrians etc, preceded the Arab term by thousands of years.  So basically, we are not "like Arabs", they would be "like us" if anything.  Akkadid maybe a better term (now im sounding lke the stormfront guy  :wavetowel:)

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2009, 11:51:12 PM »
Unknown_User...I agree that the Sumerians were probably J2, but I don't know if the Amorites had more of a demographic impact on Sumeria than they did on Assyria. Looking at the historical record, they seem to have infiltrated both areas quite extensively. They established a dynasty around Assur during the 1900's b.c. as well as founding a dynasty in Babylonia (Hammurabi was an Amorite). The Akkadians, when they did appear on the historical scene, were based somewhat to the north of the Sumerians but had an extensive presence in the Sumerian heartland which only became stronger as they came to dominate the region. Though they did have colonies in Assyria, I would expect a much stronger genetic impact on the Sumerian region. As for language, both of them spoke Akkadian, albeit different dialects of the language. Both of them switched to Aramaic at around the same time. There is another explanation for why the Assyrians have more J1. Several centuries prior to the birth of Muhammad, Arab tribes (mainly from modern day Yemen) had been moving into Syria and Iraq. One of these tribes was the Banu Lakhm, who established an Arab christian kingdom in modern day southern Iraq. They were nestorian Christians. It's possible that with the coming of Islam, some of these Arab Christians assimilated into the Assyrian community, adding more J1 to our gene pool.

"unknown" simply prefers the Northern migration and thinks Ashurians & Babylonians spoke a "dialect' of Akkadian, as if Akkadians were in Mesopotamia BEFORE any Ashurians.  The point is, I simply choose to see it the other way.  If Ninweh, Ashur, Calah/Nimrud and Arbil existed as full fledged cities since 5000 BC or earlier, then why can't we say that the Akkadians and Babylonians spoke a dialect of Ashurian?

My point is always this:  1.  We are Not "Semites" because it is a term based on a hebrew fairy tale.  Why listen to what Hebrews think of us when our own ancestors have already told and shown us who we were/are?! 

2.  Our Akkadian ancestors did NOT "probably", as they put it, come from the Arabian Penninsula and became builders of Empires over night.  This advancement of a people takes time.  I think there is so much more we don't yet know about our Ashurian ancestors and it is hastefull and misleading to assume anything yet.  We should simply accept the dates of the 1st cities that were built by our ancestors and take it from there.  Nitpicking about genes and migrations is stupid, pointless, and a waste of time.

3.  Our language is Not "Aramaic", Not "Akkadian", Not "Sumerian" but a mixture of all of these languages or dialects.  What did the Ashurians speak before any Sumerian or Akkadian conquered their lands?  Who knows, right?  However related or unrelated our ancestors' languages were, they eventually merged.  I choose to call our language Ashurian.  Sure, it has it's Sumerian, Akkadian, and Aramean influence, but what language is not influenced by others'?

In the end, we are who we FEEL we are, who we BELIEVE we are, and that's what's important.  My name, my culture, my language, my heritage, and my belief is Ashurian, and I don't have to justify that to anybody!

Cheers!
Alen Barsin

Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 12:09:19 AM »
hehe...if you  are Assyrian and not that guy on stormfront, then I truly apologize.  You are spreading some good knowledge here and I appreciate it. basima  :)




gottttcchaaa....I'm really learning a lot.  As far as the R1 gene, before I even got into genetics, I've known through research that the "Cimmerians" lived on the borders of the Assyrian empire, and they were known for having red hair. 

Red hair is extremely common in Ashurians, and my theory is that since these Cimmerians occupied the same lands as Ashurians, who's to say that they weren't the same people.  Different tribes maybe?, but we still have tribes today, unfortunately!


(many assyrians with red hair!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Also mentions how Assyrians recruited them to fight AGAINST Armenians (Urartu).

Yes, and we called them Gamri/Gamru.  We still use this word today, and it means hardened/tough.  Gmeera also means perfect and complete.  Maybe they were another Ashurian tribe who were specialized in certain types of warfare?.

couple more ?s here

- have you heard of "Leuco-Syrians"? They are supposedly "White Syrians". Would these be the J2 the Akkadians mingled with (some Sumerians depicted with Blue eyes), or a foreign group? 

- as far as j1 and j2, how closely related are they?  I understand they are of the same color coding.  And, if J2 is in fact YOUNGER than J1 by 20,000 years, is it possible that J1 was in Mesopotamia first (again Sumerians, known as "black heads" FWIW), and then Syrids moved southward, i.e. from Anatolia?

So far, my only dispute is over the term "Arabid". While I realize its in reference to the Arab plate, yet and still, Akkadians/Assyrians etc, preceded the Arab term by thousands of years.  So basically, we are not "like Arabs", they would be "like us" if anything.  Akkadid maybe a better term (now im sounding lke the stormfront guy  :wavetowel:)


This is my argument too, since we/our ancestors predate any Arabic speaking peoples by thousands of years, shouldn't the term for J1 be Ashurid/Assyrid/Sumerid or something?  The whiteness in so many Ashurians is not so much because we're mixed, but it's due to the climate of northern Assyria/Syria/Anatolia.....  It is the kind of weather that affects our features to form a lighter skinned/eyed/haired appearance.  I don't know why is it that when people see white Ashurians they say "Oh they're mixed".  Can't the same be said about some Indian looking Ashurians, and if we are mixed, then what the hell is left with the original Ashurian look?  It's all stupid.  In Reality, we are all mixed with each other, but at one point, we developed common features, mixed or not, and THAT became the Ashurian feature of today, or anyone else's for that matter.

The Ashurian feature is that of a Caucasoid, regardless of the color of their skin.  We have Whites, Tanned, Olive Skinned people, but we still maintain something of the original Ashurian look from the past.


Cheers!


Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »
Alen, do you agree with this vid esp @ 0:22



Again, I too disagree with the "Semite" term, as well as "Arabid" for our genetic classification.  Our people seriously get no respect.  We are before the hudaye and arabaye yet they receive damn near all the precedence and get their own special terms  :(

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2009, 05:56:45 AM »
Alen, do you agree with this vid esp @ 0:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do2ajUup0AM

Again, I too disagree with the "Semite" term, as well as "Arabid" for our genetic classification.  Our people seriously get no respect.  We are before the hudaye and arabaye yet they receive damn near all the precedence and get their own special terms  :(



I honestly don't know what the agenda is with the "semitic" term, but some people are hellbent on making it the law!  Unbelievable!  Even when the author of this video KNOWS that there is nothing "Semitic" about the Ashurians/Assyrians, he continues to pimp this name.

The term "Semitic" comes from the son of Noah, "Shem" which outside the old testament, does NOT EXIST anywhere else!

This is a Bull**** term imposed on our people for the benefit of the same people who wrote the old testament, the ancient jews!

If anyone here believes in biblical writings, then they should also believe the world is 6000 yrs old!

PERIOD!
Alen Barsin

Offline tyrusthomas

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2009, 09:57:25 AM »
They would probably be even closer to Syrians had they been included in the study, but I don't think I remember seeing Syrians in the chart, looking at this chart:



This tells me that Assyrians are closer in blood to some of those Levant populations such as the Syrians and Palestinians (Which are the majority in Jordon), then we see that they are close to Caucasian populations which include Kurds, Georgians, Caspian groups, and the one that surprised me the most, Iraqi Arabs, I always thought Iraqi Arabs would be closer to those Gulf or Bedouin populations in blood, but I have a feeling the sample they got from Iraqi Arabs was from the ordinary Baghdadi families, had it been a little more south you would see different results.





So Unknown_user, what are your thoughts on this different genetic project/chart, and does it not conflict with the J1-Arabid claim?  If J1 is so prevalent among our population, and is an indicator of orginating from the "Arab plate", shouldn't we then be genetically closer to the Yeminite/Saudi/Bedouin group?   Hmmmmm  :hmmm:

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2009, 12:55:08 PM »

So Unknown_user, what are your thoughts on this different genetic project/chart, and does it not conflict with the J1-Arabid claim?  If J1 is so prevalent among our population, and is an indicator of orginating from the "Arab plate", shouldn't we then be genetically closer to the Yeminite/Saudi/Bedouin group?   Hmmmmm  :hmmm:

The populations in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Oman have remained relatively isolated from foreign admixture for the most part, J1's highest frequencies are detected in Yemen, but are generally found in very high frequencies throughout the Southern most portions of the Arabian Plate, which noticeably dissipates the further away you move North, West, and East. This does not greatly contrast with the genetic chart, as all of those groups are genetically related to each other, all the chart evinces is that the genetic distance between certain ethnic groups are more intimately related to the Assyrian population as opposed to the ones who are abroad from them.

Let me illustrate what I mean by giving you an analogy.

Basket #1 has 3 red apples & 2 lemons
Basket #2 has 3 green apples & 2 oranges
Basket #3 has 11 red apples & one strawberry
Basket #4 has 23 green apples & one banana

From this, we understand that Basket #1 and Basket #2 are equally proportionate and thus are quite agnate to one another, while the exact same fruit exist in Basket #3 and Basket #4 but in different amounts which makes it seem like Basket #3 and #4 are indubitably dissimilar to the other two baskets, which isn't the case at all.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:34:23 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2009, 06:43:54 PM »
hehe...if you  are Assyrian and not that guy on stormfront, then I truly apologize.  You are spreading some good knowledge here and I appreciate it. basima  :)

gottttcchaaa....I'm really learning a lot.  As far as the R1 gene, before I even got into genetics, I've known through research that the "Cimmerians" lived on the borders of the Assyrian empire, and they were known for having red hair.  (many assyrians with red hair!)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Also mentions how Assyrians recruited them to fight AGAINST Armenians (Urartu).


It's all right, you'll have to excuse me for my astringent belligerence, it's just that having to constantly restate what I've already explained here coupled with false allegations about who I am as a user is what abraded me. I apologize. The Cimmerians are said to have originated in the Russian Steppes, north of the Black Sea, near the Caucasus Mountains or Mannae which is around Asia Minor. They're believed to have settled in Cappadocia after being defeated by the Lydian army, other than that their fate remains largely unknown. I am not very familiar with Cimmerian history or whether or not they settled in Assyria, if they did, I imagine that the genetic effect was insignificant. Assyria was once a Roman province, the occupation could be responsible for the genetic contribution of R1 in the Assyrian gene pool. Although, despite all of this, J is still undoubtly the primary component in the overall Assyrian gene pool.

J: 55.1%

G: 9.0%

L: 1.3%

T: 3.8%

R1: 30.8%




Quote
- have you heard of "Leuco-Syrians"? They are supposedly "White Syrians". Would these be the J2 the Akkadians mingled with (some Sumerians depicted with Blue eyes), or a foreign group?


They sound familiar, weren't they the ones who inhabited Cappadocia? As for your question, I doubt it I'm confident that J2 was initially carried by Sumerians who subsequently spread it, and are ultimately responsible for it's distribution, of course if these Leuco-Syrians did in fact carry it, I'd have to know who the Modern Day descendants of these so-called Leuco-Syrians are, that is if there are any Modern Day descendants.

Quote
- as far as j1 and j2, how closely related are they?  I understand they are of the same color coding.  And, if J2 is in fact YOUNGER than J1 by 20,000 years, is it possible that J1 was in Mesopotamia first (again Sumerians, known as "black heads" FWIW), and then Syrids moved southward, i.e. from Anatolia?


The differences in relation between these subclades depends entirely on what the mutations of J1 and J2 are, for example, the J2b mutation is commonly found in the Balkans, Greece, Italy, South Asia, and in some Ashkenazi Jews. J2b is often associated with the Ancient Greeks. Likewise, some mutations of J1 may be more closely related to certain mutations of J1 or J2 than others. Such as the case with J1*. Some J1* is akin to some J2 varieties and other mutations of J1* have a closer connection to J1e. As for why the Sumerians referred to themselves as the "Black-headed people" has been speculated, there have been theories that they were originally Dravidian Indic peoples from the Indus Valley, but I doubt it, since J2 is only limited to the high-castes in India, mainly the Brahmins.

Also, the emergence of these subclades arose in separate regions, J2 originated in the Northern reaches of the Arabian Plate (Northern Iraq) and is linked to the development and expansion of agriculture in Mesopotamia. While J1 had more of a dry, humid evolution and is associated with the spread of Semitic speaking peoples and from this we can conclude that J1 had an ostensible causation in Southern Arabia, particularly around the area of Modern Day Yemen. J1 did not arrive in Mesopotamia until the Semitic invasion by the Akkadians in 2340 B.C. The historical and linguistic evidence goes in accordance with genetic evidence that the Akkadians migrated Northwards from the Arabian Peninsula to the Fertile Crescent.

Quote
So far, my only dispute is over the term "Arabid". While I realize its in reference to the Arab plate, yet and still, Akkadians/Assyrians etc, preceded the Arab term by thousands of years.  So basically, we are not "like Arabs", they would be "like us" if anything.  Akkadid maybe a better term (now im sounding lke the stormfront guy  :wavetowel:)


Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 11:33:32 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2009, 09:48:52 PM »
...
Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding of the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.


[/quote]

Ok, so take a look at this Ashurian DNA site.  It shows the DNA results of today's Ashurians.  I think you're in for a surprise ; )

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Let me know what your take is on this.
Alen Barsin

Offline sgh10

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2009, 04:23:56 AM »
Pretty interesting chart. The only surprising thing is the E1b1, which is an east African, mainly Ethiopian lineage.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2009, 07:26:24 AM »
...
Neither the Assyrians nor the Arabs are descendants of one another, there were several other tribes living in the Arabian Peninsula during and after the time the Akkadians decided to branch out from the area. To name a few were the A'ad, Amorite, and Ahhlamu tribes. Akkadid wouldn't be a very scrupulous method on denoting members of the J1 haplogroup as it implies lineage to a specific ethnic group of people rather than a broad range of people and seeing as how Akkad no longer exists, it would just add even more bewilderment. Arabid can also be used in a geographical context, referring to the overall territory surrounding of the Arabian Plate, in fact I emphasize on using it in a geographic connotation rather than an ethnological one. But if you find the term distasteful, you may address as Akkadid if you wish.




Ok, so take a look at this Ashurian DNA site.  It shows the DNA results of today's Ashurians.  I think you're in for a surprise ; )

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Let me know what your take is on this.

I've viewed these results before, I actually wanted to contribute my DNA results to the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do so due to the fact that I was required to purchase a Y-DNA Test Kit from Family Tree DNA.com but I plan on doing so in the near future. Honestly, the strong presence of R1b does not confound me at all, much of the R1b found in the Assyrian gene pool is accredited to an Armenian lineage, whether or not this lineage is a recent or ancient one is what I'm curious about. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the mutations of R1b is identical to the ones found in Armenians, which is R1b1b2. All in all this does not defile J1's dominance in the Assyrian gene pool, if more samples were collected, I guarantee that J1 would surpass R1b and R1 in general for that matter. The study also fails to mention where these samples were obtained which is why I am reticent to trust the results as much as I trust the ones found on The Genetic Atlas study, if they were collected in the United States and/or Canada, where intermarriage is more common and liable to occur, that could also explain why R1b has such a vigor presence in the Assyrian gene pool.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:32:40 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2009, 08:03:46 PM »
"
I've viewed these results before, I actually wanted to contribute my DNA results to the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do so due to the fact that I was required to purchase a Y-DNA Test Kit from Family Tree DNA.com but I plan on doing so in the near future. Honestly, the strong presence of R1b does not confound me at all, much of the R1b found in the Assyrian gene pool is accredited to an Armenian lineage, whether or not this lineage is a recent or ancient one is what I'm curious about. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the mutations of R1b is identical to the ones found in Armenians, which is R1b1b2. All in all this does not defile J1's dominance in the Assyrian gene pool, if more samples were collected, I guarantee that J1 would surpass R1b and R1 in general for that matter. The study also fails to mention where these samples were obtained which is why I am reticent to trust the results as much as I trust the ones found on The Genetic Atlas study, if they were collected in the United States and/or Canada, where intermarriage is more common and liable to occur, that could also explain why R1b has such a vigor presence in the Assyrian gene pool."


I expected this response from you, and this is the problem I have with your thinking.  You attribute certain elements and facts of Ashurian people and their migrations always to OTHER people and OTHER gerographic orgins.  You don't try to see it as the other way around.  How do you know that it wasn't Ashurians themselves who gave the Armenians this gene.  Why must we always accept just one explanation when it comes to our history or DNA. or our origins?

Try to keep your lid on, but according to you, and some historians of course, it's always us who've been "Influenced", us who've been mixed, us who're probably from somewhere other than their established homeland.  I just have a serious problem with us being the "Newcomers" or "Mixed", when it's very possible and most likely that it was us who've been the indigenous ones of our lands, us who've been passing down genes and so on.

I've seen your charts, and I know you trust in these things, which we normally should, but just because the majority of a certain gene exists more in one place than the other, does not neccesarily mean that's where the origin of it is/was.  Let's say out of 90,000 Ashurians, 55,0000 left Chicago and moved to Scottsdale AZ, without knowing about the move, and by taking a current census, should we assume that most American Ashurians originate from Scottsdale because there are more Ashurians there instead of Chicago?

I know this isn't a great example, but I'm simply saying that maybe we passed on our genes around to other populations.  I just don't subcribe to the theory that we did all the "Barrowing" from others.  As much as we all should trust in Science, I know you'll at least agree that sometimes scientists themselves make mistakes and end up speculating when the answers are not always there.



 
 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 08:09:19 PM by Alen Sin »
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Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2009, 12:56:28 PM »
I expected this response from you, and this is the problem I have with your thinking.  You attribute certain elements and facts of Ashurian people and their migrations always to OTHER people and OTHER gerographic orgins.  You don't try to see it as the other way around.  How do you know that it wasn't Ashurians themselves who gave the Armenians this gene.  Why must we always accept just one explanation when it comes to our history or DNA. or our origins?


That's because R1b IS attributed to "OTHER people and OTHER geographic origins", R1b is by far the most common Haplogroup found in Western European populations, R1 arose from Central or South Asia around 30,000 years ago and is associated with the re-colonization of Eurasia after the Last Glacial Maximum during the Ice Age. R1b is the ancestor of R1 which dawned in Eurasia, somewhere between Central Asia or the Northern most reaches of Southwest Asia (Within the Caucasus) around 18,000 years ago and is imputed with the mass migration and settlement of Europe in the post-Ice Age Era. Considering the fact that Assyrians didn't exist around 18,000 years ago, it would be erroneous and counterfactual to even suggest that a single nonexistent ethnic group are exclusively responsible for it's diffusion. Furthermore, there is absolutely no shred of empirical evidence to infer that a single ethnic group are responsible for it's dispersion.

Finally, the reason why I find this explanation as being the more plausible is due to the fact that R1b's presence in Armenia is the highest in Southwest Asia, it's percentages in Armenia are roughly around 30%, as oppose to it's very low frequencies as one continues to move south, perpending that this gene flow is likely due to Armenian amalgamation.

Quote

Try to keep your lid on, but according to you, and some historians of course, it's always us who've been "Influenced", us who've been mixed, us who're probably from somewhere other than their established homeland.  I just have a serious problem with us being the "Newcomers" or "Mixed", when it's very possible and most likely that it was us who've been the indigenous ones of our lands, us who've been passing down genes and so on.


The only one who's keeping their "lid" on is you, archaeological and historical evidence is at odds with your baseless assertions and sophistry, the Sumerians were the first ones to inaugurate Mesopotamia as their homeland before our predecessors the Akkadians sacked Sumer in 2340 B.C., this was thousands of years prior to the inception of the Old Assyrian Period around 1900 to 1200 B.C. It was the Sumerians that the postliminary civilizations had an impact on, and this is apparent in the writing system the Akkadians appropriated into their language, the system of law which led to the development of the Code of Hammurabi, and the religion that the Babylonians incorporated as their belief system. If you have a problem with us being "newcomers" then you should make an effort disprove the historical, archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence in opposition to your absurdities, rather than abhorrently and obnoxiously predicating your beliefs on wishful thinking. Secondly, genetic purity is extremely rare and the Modern Assyrians are no exception.



Quote
I've seen your charts, and I know you trust in these things, which we normally should, but just because the majority of a certain gene exists more in one place than the other, does not neccesarily mean that's where the origin of it is/was.  Let's say out of 90,000 Ashurians, 55,0000 left Chicago and moved to Scottsdale AZ, without knowing about the move, and by taking a current census, should we assume that most American Ashurians originate from Scottsdale because there are more Ashurians there instead of Chicago?


I agree that one must not rely on the amount of people that constitutes a population as a marker's geographical origin. However, this the reason why we map the migratory routes of the peoples who do carry certain gene(s) into other parts of the world, if a group of people carried a specific marker into another region and settled there, we would already be appraised of such a migration because we could trace the direction they took from their place of origin to the area(s) they're settling in the present day.

Quote
I know this isn't a great example, but I'm simply saying that maybe we passed on our genes around to other populations.  I just don't subcribe to the theory that we did all the "Barrowing" from others.  As much as we all should trust in Science, I know you'll at least agree that sometimes scientists themselves make mistakes and end up speculating when the answers are not always there.


An important thing to note is, when it comes to genes, they aren't contingent upon nor do they necessarily appertain to the advancement of an intrinsic group of people, it would be incorrect to proclaim that a specific group of people is responsible for the diffusion of a particular genetic marker. The evidence fulcrums that we were in fact influenced by previous civilizations in Mesopotamia, this is evident in the language the Assyrians spoke before becoming Aramized between 8th and 9th Centuries and the art depicted on the walls, pottery, and statues. Of course, I'm not connoting that our civilization didn't inspire and/or influence the advent of other civilizations, I just don't concede to the idea that we were the only ones to conceive all of this, and everyone else is just a plagiarist. Depending on what field of Science you're referring to, the mistakes aren't necessarily as drastic as you may think they are and just because scientists haven't found all of the answers yet doesn't mean we'll never find them.
 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:54:06 AM by Unknown_User »
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Offline Alen Sin

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2009, 07:39:08 PM »
 "Considering the fact that Assyrians didn't exist around 18,000 years ago, it would be erroneous and counterfactual to even suggest that a single nonexistent ethnic group are exclusively responsible for it's diffusion. Furthermore, there is absolutely no shred of empirical evidence to infer that a single ethnic group are responsible for it's dispersion."

Says who, you?  There you go again assuming that "Assyrians did not exist around 18,000 years ago".  You have absolutely no evidence of this, not you, not any scientists either.  Maybe they simply didn't call themselves "Assyrians" in that time, but that does not mean they didn't exist.  "Non Existing ethnic group"?  Please!  That's an absurd idea!  They existed but who knows as what?  Who knows what anybody called themselves 18,000 years ago?  You're admitting that there were a people in that time, so how do we know for sure if they were or weren't Ashurians?  The answer is we don't.

"Finally, the reason why I find this explanation as being the more plausible is due to the fact that R1b's presence in Armenia is the highest in Southwest Asia, it's percentages in Armenia are roughly around 30%, as oppose to it's very low frequencies as one continues to move south, perpending that this gene flow is likely due to Armenian amalgamation."

You're repeating yourself.  I simply believe it's a possibility that it could've been the other way around, referring to the migrations.  This is not an impossibility.

"The only one who's keeping their "lid" on is you"

You didn't even understand what I meant.  I meant to keep your cool, which obviously you can't.  Just curious, how old are you?


"archaeological and historical evidence is at odds with your baseless assertions and sophistry"

Can you refer to me any books to prove your statement?  Really, I'm very interested to know the truth.
 

"The Sumerians were the first ones to inaugurate Mesopotamia as their homeland before our predecessors the Akkadians sacked Sumer in 2340 B.C."

This is your belief and NOT scientific or archaeological fact.  Ashurians existed there just as long or possibly longer than the Sumerians.  The Sumerians, also very possibly our ancestors, did invent writing and the wheel, and that led to the 1st real civilzation, but that doesn't mean there was no one else in mesopotamia at that time.  All the books on mesopotamian history say this.

"this was thousands of years prior to the inception of the Old Assyrian Period around 1900 to 1200 B.C."

Again, you're only counting the Ashurians' time during their empires, not prior.  When Assyria wasn't an empire, they were farmers and traders as early as 6000 BC, and that's how old Ninweh and Arbil are dated. Here's an excerpt from this report:  "The first settlements at Nineveh began in 6,000 B.C. During the 2nd and 3rd millenium Nineveh was dedicated to the worship of gods like Ishtar."  Read more here:  www.associatedcontent.com/article/447190/history_of_the_ancient_city_of_nineveh.html

This is just one source, but there are plenty more if you search.


 
"It was the Sumerians that the postliminary civilizations had an impact on, and this is apparent in the writing system the Akkadians appropriated into their language, the system of law which led to the development of the Code of Hammurabi, and the religion that the Babylonians incorporated as their belief system."

Still, you're only stating the fact that other people adopted writing from the Sumerians.  This doesn't mean they weren't natives there.  Writing simply was invented in Sumer and not Akkad or Ashur.  This doesn't mean the Sumerians "Predated" other Mesopotamians.

 "If you have a problem with us being "newcomers" then you should make an effort disprove the historical, archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence in opposition to your absurdities, rather than abhorrently and obnoxiously predicating your beliefs on wishful thinking. Secondly, genetic purity is extremely rare and the Modern Assyrians are no exception."

Man, it is YOU who's the absurd one.  Blind to possibilities and biased in your take on Mesopotamian History and her people.  There's nothing I need to disprove because contrary to your statement and beliefs, science has already admitted the presence of Ashurians as long as that of the Sumerians, and possibly older.
I'm a fan of Archaeology and Assyriology and it's founder/father, Sir Austen Henry layard, who spoke of Ashurian presence in Ninweh, Calah, Ashur and Arbil since 6000 BC.  You're the absurd and obnoxious one if you don't know these facts.



"I agree that one must not rely on the amount of people that constitutes a population as a marker's geographical origin."

This is my point.

"An important thing to note is, when it comes to genes, they aren't contingent upon nor do they necessarily appertain to the advancement of an intrinsic group of people, it would be incorrect to proclaim that a specific group of people is responsible for the diffusion of a particular genetic marker."

But that's exactly what you've been doing by saying "the R1 Genes were spread to us by Armenians, the J2 by Sumerians.....".  All this haplogroup stuff you're talking about means nothing.  You've already admitted that no one people are Genetically pure, and all are mixed, so what's the point of all this stuff you've posted here regarding genetics?  All you've proven is that EVERYONE is mixed with OTHER genes from other people.  We all know this already.  Wherever we Ashurians, Armenians, Greeks, Russians got our genes from doesn't really matter.  All that matters is which culture we belong to, are loyal to and what our name and identity is.  Regardless of all this genetic stuff, we're Ashurayeh, and we have an extremely ancient history and share the same features and blood as our ancient ancestors did, regardless of whatever they called themselves in their time.

The evidence fulcrums that we were in fact influenced by previous civilizations in Mesopotamia, this is evident in the language the Assyrians spoke before becoming Aramized between 8th and 9th Centuries and the art depicted on the walls, pottery, and statues.

And I say the "Arameans" were Ashurianized/Akkadianized way before they "Aramized" anybody, and this is based on the fact that King Sargon of Akkad created the first empire and influenced all in the Akkadian way, language and art.  Aram was nothing more than a small kingdom that became part of the empire.  All the Ashurians, Babylonians did was borrow the Aramaic script, but that's pretty much it.  It was easier to use than cuneiform, but it did not replace the Ashurian language.  Influenced maybe, but again I remind you that the Arameans were influenced 1st by the Ashurians/Akkadians.

"Of course, I'm not connoting that our civilization didn't inspire and/or influence the advent of other civilizations, I just don't concede to the idea that we were the only ones to conceive all of this, and everyone else is just a plagiarist."

Why, you think plagiarism didn't exist in those days?  The entire old testament is plagiarized material.

"Depending on what field of Science you're referring to, the mistakes aren't necessarily as drastic as you may think they are and just because scientists haven't found all of the answers yet doesn't mean we'll never find them."

Doesn't matter which specific scientific field I'm talking about.  The fact is, Scientist have been DRASTICALLY wrong in Different fields, take astronomy for example;  I grew up believing our solar system had nine planets.  Should I continue?
 
Alen Barsin

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2009, 11:56:34 AM »
Below is the latest study on J1e and most of the Assyrians cases in the study are  J1* DYS=388 , so I think in my modest opinion' the so called  Semite/Assyrians belong to  J1*DYS=388 + J1e haplotypes( J1 DYS388=13 is ancestral to J1e).


Abstract:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2009166a.html


Data files:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x1.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x2.xls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assyrian DNA project By Mary Yonan & Joel Elias

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults


Thank you
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:01:29 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2009, 06:28:44 PM »
Below is the latest study on J1e and most of the Assyrians cases in the study are  J1* DYS=388 , so I think in my modest opinion' the so called  Semite/Assyrians belong to  J1*DYS=388 + J1e haplotypes( J1 DYS388=13 is ancestral to J1e).


Abstract:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2009166a.html


Data files:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x1.xls

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2009166x2.xls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assyrian DNA project By Mary Yonan & Joel Elias

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults


Thank you



The reason I referenced the J1* DYS388=13 is not to point out it is point of origin but to point out that it is the most common haplotype among Assyrians (Me Myself still think Assyrians came originally  with akkadians from the Arabian Peninsula).

Thank you
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:53:17 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2009, 06:51:24 PM »
Some Refrences about Akkadians and Assyrians:

" The Akkadians were a Semitic people living on the Arabic peninsula . "

http://history-world.org/akkadians.htm

"Portions of this work contributed by Robert A. Guisepi and F. Roy Williams, University of California "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The northern division of Babylon was called Accad, comprehending Babylon, the southern Sumer, including Erech and Ur. North of Accad were the Semitic tribes which so largely made up the blood of Assyria in later days"


CHAPTER XI.
THE STRANGE RACES OF CHALDEA
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/we/we14.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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" The Assyrians also had a civilization that flourished to the west of Lake Urmia(Azerbaijan) in the centuries prior to creation of Media and Albania. Most of the ancient documents and inscriptions used for historical analysis of the area come from the Assyrians and from the kingdom of Urartu. In dealing with the history of Azerbaijan, most western scholars refer to Greek, Arab, Roman, and Persian sources."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Anatolia, the first millennium B.C. begins in a period of disruption and decentralization: new states form and regroup. Greek colonies are established in southern and western Anatolia and, later, on the Black Sea coasts. By the late eighth century B.C., the Neo-Assyrian empire, with its capital cities in Mesopotamia, confronts small kingdoms in both Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, including Urartu, Phrygia, and (later) Lydia

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/04/waa/ht04waa.htm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nakh/Dagestani Lingo are also linked to Akkadian"
The Chechens: a handbook By M. Jaimoukha


http://books.google.com/books?id=PnjAlei9fe0C&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=Akkadian+language+in+Chechnya&source=bl&ots=cBbBADk6tF&sig=fRyUFzAEbmh8QqAGerjM7Rap8yo&hl=en&ei=ZwevSpDeBIyJtgeHyODVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Akkadian%20language%20in%20Chechnya&f=false
regards
----------------------------------------------------

BRIEF CHECHEN HISTORY

"Ethnic Identity

We, the Chechens, are not slavs. We are not Turks, despite the fact that Turkey unites all North Caucasus Muslim into a category which is related to them. We are not even "Chechen." This was coined by the Russians after the name of a village (Chechen-aul) where the Russians first encountered our people in the early 16th century. The first written mention of our people was in the 7th century, where we were known as the "Noxche" (pronounced "No-h-chee" with the "h" pronounced as if one was gargling from the back of the mouth: very similar to one of the ancient Aramaic letters)."

Language

The Noxche language is considered one of the most difficult and oldest languages in the Caucasus. Its roots can be traced most closely to the ancient Mesopotamians. A cuneiform-style of writing is evident on some of the stone inscriptions, dating at least to 2,800 BC. The Noxche language, as we know it today, is most linked to some of the words used by the ancient Akkhadians, and can be traced at least to 1200 BC.. It is not related to Russian, Slavic, Indo-European or Turkish languages

1,850 BC: bronze working evident as the northern most point. Contemporary to bronze working among the Hurrians, Kassites, Amorites and others to the south. "

http://russia.rin.ru/guides_e/3214.html

http://amina.com/article/br_hist.html


Most J1 Chechens are J1* DYS388=13


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Dr Golda H. Kaplan is a linguist. She researches Akkadian, especially its system of verb tenses. Her principal ideas can be found in the monograph Use of aspect-tense verbal forms in Akkadian texts of the Hammurapi period (1792-1750 B.C.) published in English in 2002. She wrote also The Sketches On Akkadian Grammar, the most detailed study guide on Akkadian in Russia."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Great German Nation (They say some Germans Tribes originally Assyrians)

http://books.google.com/books?id=kXPz0dzGjf0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=assyrians+are+descents+of+the+akkadians&source=bl&ots=sd3yhBOpMA&sig=A20TpO7X8dDQHm4P4l9HKxmjKfU&hl=en&ei=fy3dStH3A4riswOYvtnVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

------------------------------------------------



http://books.google.com/books?id=kB_Z_zdfxqsC&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=The+Assyrians+are+the+descendants+of+the+Akkadians&source=bl&ots=PUnYlFR_DK&sig=Ot9KqrcKMAeg3vLlTeEtShiV8XA&hl=en&ei=ER_dStH4K5aB8QbQirRr&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CB4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=The%20Assyrians%20are%20the%20descendants%20of%20the%20Akkadians&f=false

Regards



« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 07:09:20 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2009, 01:49:14 PM »
groups. It may be on the grounds of experiencing feelings of relegation from their positions within these newly developed Empires. As for your theory of why we exhibit high percentages of J1 as opposed to J2, while it is an interesting theory, I find that the high degrees of J1 are more attributable to Akkadian ancestry, the reason why I find this explanation more feasible is because of the vivid linguistic similarities between the Akkadian language and the 'Adid language spoken by the A'ad tribes in what is now eastern Yemen, western Oman, and parts of the Dhofar Mountains over the Arabian Sea. Of course, I'm not ruling out the possibility of outside influence on our genetic integrity, which resulted in higher instances of Haplogroup J1.


 
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
A'ad - Page 4
Relation to Semitic languages
The Eastern South Semitic languages are known for their extremely archaic nature, especially in their system of phonology -- for example, they preserve the lateral fricatives of Proto-Semitic, which were lost in all other Semitic languages thousands of years ago.

South Arabia in general remains as the only region in the world to remain exlusively Semitic through history. However, its unknown if the Western South Semitic family (which includes many Western Semitic and Eastern Semitic elements), but then most of the Wetsern Semitic languages can be related to the Aramiac Christians and Hebrew speakers presence in ancient Yemen. Also the Western Southern Semitic family spread/evolved in the direction North to South and East to West sequence which indicates a more Eastern/Northern origin perhaps in the Rub' Al Khali just to the North of the 'Ad.

The 'Adid language shares many Eastern Semitic elements (which predates any recorded Semitic influence in Western Yemen or Africa) and until this day the Mahra and Shahra languages are considered the purest of the Semitic tongues, mainly due to the long isolation in the 'Ad region which might not favor it in this case as the origin of all Semitic tongue, instead a common origin or close relation to the Akkadians who lived with them directly in the Empty Quarter of the Arabian peninsula before they split to Akkadians who headed to Akkad[1] and 'Adids who headed to the 'Ad. The Magan (Oman) connection with Ancient Sumer (which will be conquered by the Akkadians) adds another dimension to this theory.


References
^ Akkadians
The ancient Arab tribe of 'Ad
'Ad the people of East Yemen and Oman
Timeline of Oman
South Semitic - Akkadian connection
Arabian origins of the Akkadians

   http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/A'ad/4#

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2009, 03:14:56 PM »
South Semitic - Akkadian connection

http://www.jstor.org/pss/594727
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 03:17:37 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2009, 03:34:55 PM »
I came across an interesting video, and wanted to see what your take on it is.   fascinating stuff!  





Below is another Great video!


Who are  the Assyrians ?


« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 04:00:36 PM by Shammor »

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »
"According to this, Arabia was originally a land of great fertility and the first home of the Semitic peoples. Through the millennia it has been undergoing a process of steady desiccation, a drying up of wealth and waterways and a spread of the desert at the expense of the cultivable land. The declining productivity of the peninsula, together with the increase in the number of the inhabitants, led to a series of crises of overpopulation and consequently to a recurring cycle of invasions of the neighbouring countries by the Semitic peoples of the peninsula. It was these crises that carried the Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews), and finally the Arabs themselves into the Fertile Crescent."

Bernard Lewis (2002), The Arabs in History, Oxford University Press, USA; 6New Ed edition, page 17

Offline Alucard

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2009, 06:02:08 AM »
Also, the conclusions of this study performed by Dr. Elias and Mary Yonan, who also executed the analysis of Assyrian Heritage DNA Project on Family Tree DNA.com indicates that the main haplotype Assyrian males belong to, including myself is J1-M267.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_yonan2009.htm

This is not an authentic population genetics study. Someone please ban this troll, he's making things up. Don't come here with fake genetic studies.

Offline Zephanosuke Sama

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2009, 12:04:20 AM »
This is not an authentic population genetics study. Someone please ban this troll, he's making things up. Don't come here with fake genetic studies.

I assure you that the study I provided above is indeed an attested, peer-reviewed study executed by Dr. Yonan from the Assyrian DNA Heritage Project. If you don't believe me, you may e-mail her for yourself. If anything this analysis corroborates the one performed by Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in 2000. The Modern Assyrians do in fact share a common ancestry with the Modern Jordanian population in Amman, as indicated by their genetic affinity of their Y-DNA Haplogroup assignment. That alone should substantiate that fact. Oh but wait, you prefer to classify us under antiquated racial terms like "Caucasoid" as if it were a synonym for "White", which by the way, have long been considered obsolete by the anthropological community since the 19th Century. Sorry, but I don't abide by outdated racial classifications, my Y-Chromosome, along with the Y-Chromosome of the rest of the 41% of Assyrian males originated in the Arabian Peninsula, not in the Caucasus Mountains.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 12:09:17 AM by Unknown_User »
"Trust those searching for the truth, not those who've found it."

Offline Shammor

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2009, 12:55:16 AM »
I assure you that the study I provided above is indeed an attested, peer-reviewed study executed by Dr. Yonan from the Assyrian DNA Heritage Project. If you don't believe me, you may e-mail her for yourself. If anything this analysis corroborates the one performed by Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza in 2000. The Modern Assyrians do in fact share a common ancestry with the Modern Jordanian population in Amman, as indicated by their genetic affinity of their Y-DNA Haplogroup assignment. That alone should substantiate that fact. Oh but wait, you prefer to classify us under antiquated racial terms like "Caucasoid" as if it were a synonym for "White", which by the way, have long been considered obsolete by the anthropological community since the 19th Century. Sorry, but I don't abide by outdated racial classifications, my Y-Chromosome, along with the Y-Chromosome of the rest of the 41% of Assyrian males originated in the Arabian Peninsula, not in the Caucasus Mountains.

Unknown_User :

Thank you very much for your clarification of the above study ,

FYI

I contacted Dr . YONAN so many times by email Requesting more info about the above study and the Jordanian one but for some reason she never acknowledged  my emails !!!!!

Thank you


Offline Micho

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2009, 07:00:39 PM »
They should also take DNA test on assyrians from Tur Abdin, most of the test I see they do from Assyrians are from syria or Iraq. The ones from Tur Abdin are generally brighter than assyrians from other places, probably because of climate.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Assyrians and Ay-rabs racially unrelated?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2017, 11:17:03 PM »
My point is always this:  1.  We are Not "Semites" because it is a term based on a hebrew fairy tale.  Why listen to what Hebrews think of us when our own ancestors have already told and shown us who we were/are?! 
Omg, finally somebody else in this forum actually had the intelligence and heed to say this fact.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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