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Offline sydneydude

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who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« on: March 08, 2006, 11:35:23 PM »
Philip Pham, Suleman's former lawyer, told a court hearing recently that it was Bishop Joseph Mar Meelis Zaia, head of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, who suggested "Froggy" as a catchy name to Suleman. Many people say the bishop strongly supported the businessman, reportedly even saying in church what a good person he was.

The Collapse of an Assyrian Empire



His company name was splashed across the sky as he hobnobbed with former US presidents and the social set. But by the time the liquidators moved in on Karl Suleman, $65 million had disappeared and a community was devastated. Nikki Barrowclough looks at the bizarre rise and fall of an unlikely entrepreneur.

His company name was splashed across the sky as he hobnobbed with former US presidents and the social set. But by the time the liquidators moved in on Karl Suleman, $65 million had disappeared and a community was devastated. Nikki Barrowclough looks at the bizarre rise and fall of an unlikely entrepreneur.

Karl Suleman slips into the car and we drive off into Sydney's traffic. There's a lot to ask him in a very short space of time. Looking sleek in the same grey suit he has worn for his court appearances, Suleman is strangely relaxed, unguarded, even apparently guileless. He wants to say one thing immediately: he would like to be able to question one or two people in court. He wants to tell "those thugs" and "thieves" to pay back the money lost by the people who invested in the failed scheme over which he presided.

"One day I will write a book, which will simply be about telling people to be more cautious when you go to see experts," he adds. "I will tell people, 'Don't believe everything you are told.' And always ask the question: 'Why do you want to make me rich?'"

It's good advice, though it comes a little late for the many investors who thought Karl Suleman was going to make them rich. The 41-year-old boss of the ill-fated Froggy group of companies and of Karl Suleman Enterprises (KSE) led his followers to believe they could earn an astonishing 190 per cent annual interest on money invested with KSE.

But the bubble burst last November when the corporate cops from the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC) swooped on the flamboyant, bleached-blond, chainsmoking Assyrian, raiding his home in Sydney's western suburbs, as well as the offices of KSE. Once ASIC had established that Suleman didn't have an investment adviser's licence, and that the scheme wasn't registered, it froze his assets and those of his wife, Vivian, and launched a major inquiry into the operation.

Liquidators Paul Weston and Neil Cussen, of Horwath Chartered Accountants, were appointed administrators of KSE and another company, Suleman Investments. After a preliminary review of the paperwork or, rather, of the profound lack of it, Weston and Cussen recommended that ASIC widen its investigation.

In all, 2062 investors poured $130.7 million into KSE between late 1999 and November 2001, many of them mortgaging their homes and going into heavy debt to do so. The scheme, which mainly targeted Sydney's Assyrian community, saw family members and friends grouping together in a mad race to raise the cash.

Many investors did, indeed, get handsome returns, which were paid like clockwork into their bank accounts. In the early stages, it was estimated that KSE paid at least $45 million back to investors - but the generous dividends were funded largely by the contributions of those who joined the scheme later. When ASIC pounced, money was still pouring into the scheme from eager investors.

Now $65 million of investors' money is missing, and ASIC wants to know where it has gone. So do Weston and Cussen, who have taken away all Suleman's toys, including a Lamborghini, four Ferraris, a $3.3 million luxury boat, a number of Sydney properties, several racehorses and two planes. (A third plane is currently sitting in a cow paddock in outback Victoria. In an undocumented deal, the plane was allegedly sold to a person who was later flying it when the engine failed. He crash-landed in the paddock, and there the plane will remain until the liquidators decide its fate.)

Why did Suleman need so many status symbols? He tells Good Weekend that they weren't for his own use - that he had planned to set up a luxury fly, drive and sail operation for wealthy people. But he adds that he always had nice cars, and was driving a Mercedes as far back as 1988. He says his family was never poor: his mother had brought money with her from Iraq when she and Suleman, then aged 15, came to Australia to live. His father, a pilot with the Iraqi Air Force, had died when his plane crashed during an air show in his homeland in 1963.

The Karl Suleman affair isn't just labyrinthine, it's crowded. There are cash transactions, unexplained cheques, visits to casinos, and a variety of intriguing rumours, including one that Suleman was somehow involved in sales of Iraqi oil. (Suleman tells Good Weekend that he was approached by someone who asked if he'd be interested in selling oil, but that the deal never eventuated.) There's also a wildly diverse cast of characters drawn willingly or accidentally into the businessman's orbit: two former American presidents, a wealthy Sydney property dealer, a former television game-show hostess, rabbis and Assyrian religious leaders.

Then there's Suleman's inner circle, a group of cronies known as the "Men in Black" because of the way they dressed. Some of the Men in Black were also Suleman's so-called "agents", Assyrians who collected the funds from investors. Two of those agents in particular, who vanished overseas after ASIC closed in, are among those Suleman says he would like to question in court.

And at the bottom of the pile are the 2062 people who threw caution to the wind and all their money at a man who had no previous experience as an investor. Suleman had some business experience - he ran a shopping trolley collection business, and had previously owned a couple of 7-Eleven stores - but was chiefly known in the Assyrian community as a drummer who played in folk music bands.

The Fairfield area of Sydney's south-west is home to about 20,000 members of the city's close-knit Assyrian community. (Assyrians are a Christian minority scattered across Iran, Iraq and Syria.) In the wake of ASIC's closure of the investment scheme, lives and marriages have been shattered and anger is rife. Copies of an anonymous document making a raft of detailed, eye-opening claims about where some of the missing $65 million went, have been circulating in the community for months.

Who is the author? No-one knows. But he or she certainly has a memorable turn of phrase. Suleman is referred to several times as "the Devil-Pig" in the document, which ends with the statement, "Our belief in God will bring a justice."

The document may be no more than a scandalous piece of gossip, but it reflects the kind of emotions boiling over in Fairfield. "People in our community always trusted each other. That's the kind of people we are. So everyone trusted Karl. Now, no-one trusts anyone," says one resident.

In the suburb's shopping plazas, no-one will speak on the record about Suleman, though they make no attempt to conceal the extent of their animosity towards the man they were once so quick to embrace as a business demigod.

"Karl was no-one," says an Assyrian man in his early twenties. "There was nothing out of the ordinary about him. He was a drummer. One of the best. But that's it. If he'd been Jamie Packer, maybe we'd have said, 'His father must be behind him, so everything should be okay.' But he wasn't like Jamie Packer. He wasn't anyone. And now we all want to kill him."

"Karl only dyed his hair blond after he became a superstar," someone else butts in. "You've seen us - we all look the same. But Karl had to go and dye his hair blond."

"How could anyone believe in Karl?" mocks a shrewd Assyrian businessman in his forties, who didn't invest, and warned others not to. "If you said to him, 'What's the capital of Australia?' he'd say, 'Brother, it's Fairfield.'"

Isn't this a bit harsh?

The speaker makes an expressive gesture with his hand. Suleman, he says, could barely spell. "He once asked someone how to spell 'nil'. Everyone knew Karl was uneducated. Some of the people around him were uneducated. For heaven's sake, why give your money to people like that?"

Karl Suleman maintains he was perfectly happy being a small businessman. But at some stage he obviously came to have other ideas. While flying a group of associates to Hamilton Island last year, he told one guest that he wanted to help run the country. At the very least it seemed he harboured visions of becoming a leader of the Assyrian community.

In an interview he gave to an American journal, The Progressive Assyrian, in early 2001, he spoke of his pride in being Assyrian, and of the responsibility of Assyrian entrepreneurs such as himself to advance his nation's case for greater recognition in world affairs. How should they do this? "Self-denial, sacrifice, simplicity and forgiveness are the qualities that our businessmen or politicians, when dealing with our community, should have," he replied.

Suleman's name first began appearing in social columns and newspaper reports a year ago. He soon became the most enigmatic member of Sydney's eastern suburbs social set, where in some circles the all-that-glitters-is-all-that-matters law of acceptance works like a charm.

The only thing people knew about him at that stage was that he was head of the new Froggy Group, a set of companies based in suburban Liverpool, and the man behind the numerous skywriting advertisements for Froggy (the skywriting is currently back - Froggy.com's new owners appreciate the value of continuity).

Skywriting isn't what gets blood racing in the eastern suburbs, though. Money does. And the mysterious newcomer had lots of it. He was fond of giving his cash away, too - to the Assyrian church and community charities. When he reportedly spent more than some of Australia's richest men, including Westfield boss Frank Lowy, at a Jewish House crisis centre fundraiser at the Westin Hotel in February 2001, it made news in the social pages of a Sunday paper.

Suleman's early days as a businessman had been undistinguished. After leaving school at 19, he had worked as a storeman and packer, among other jobs, until he was injured in a work-related incident and received a $90,000 compensation payout, which he used to buy a house. In 1989 he bought a 7-Eleven store, and a second one in the early 1990s. It was also about that time that he saw there was money to be made in the retrieval of shopping trolleys from the vast malls of suburbia.

By the time ASIC intervened in his affairs, Suleman was operating shopping trolley contracts in South Australia, NSW and Queensland. Horwath's Paul Weston says it was KSE's only real business - and it was this business that people thought they were putting their money into with the investment scheme. But it's still not explained why they believed they'd get such good returns on their money. As Weston says, while the contracts Suleman operated might have been profitable in the past, there was no evidence to suggest they could result in the kind of astronomical returns he promised.

But to outsiders, Suleman seemed to have a head for business. He was moving up in the world. One source claims the businessman tossed him the keys to a Ferrari one day and invited him to take it for a spin. As he was driving, he opened the compartment beside the driver's seat and was amazed by the amount of cash he says was there - about $50,000.

In 1999, Suleman bought an unpretentious two-storey townhouse in Hinchinbrook, a new housing estate close to Fairfield (up until then, he and his wife and two children had been living in a little house in nearby Greenfield Park). In late 1999 KSE attracted its first investors, reportedly Suleman's relatives and friends. None of the investors Good Weekend spoke to can pinpoint when they first heard about the scheme, but word spread fast through the community. Early the next year, Suleman bought an Internet service provider called A1 Superlink, as well as another, smaller, Melbourne ISP. With these two, the Froggy empire - including a music company and a mobile phone reseller business - was born. About this time the Men in Black also appeared, along with the stable of cars, the skywriting and Suleman's newly blonded hair.

Many observers took it for granted that the Froggy group of companies was behind the businessman's sudden wealth. Ramena Kako, an Assyrian law graduate who's on the KSE creditors' committee of inspection, says a lot of people questioned where Suleman was getting his money from, but that by then the momentum around him had built to a high, aided by effusive word of mouth: "My Dad told me he had one of the priests from the Assyrian church telling him how he had invested and how good it was, and he said, 'You'll make more money than you've ever dreamed of making.' A lot of key figures in the community promoted Karl, including from the church and other organisations. That alone encouraged a lot of people to invest."

Philip Pham, Suleman's former lawyer, told a court hearing recently that it was Bishop Joseph Mar Meelis Zaia, head of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, who suggested "Froggy" as a catchy name to Suleman. Many people say the bishop strongly supported the businessman, reportedly even saying in church what a good person he was.

Kako also recalls that "Froggy.com was constantly in our faces, floating in the sky, and we just assumed he'd been very successful. Things that he told people - 'We're going to float Froggy, we're going to make so much money out of it' - were pretty convincing as well."

Behind the scenes, though, Froggy was struggling. About $13 million of the money invested with KSE was siphoned off to the Froggy group of companies to pay its debts.

Suleman maintains to Good Weekend that he, too, was taken for a ride - by bad advisers. "From the beginning I didn't know what I was getting into," he says, adding that early on, "I had no idea what an ISP even was." He insists that "other people" told him he would make millions out of Froggy.

Comments Paul Weston: "Mr Suleman has been saying to us a couple of things: that he trusted in others and they let him down, and that [advisers] were telling him that his ISPs and his Froggy businesses were going to be worth two or three hundred million dollars. How those figures were ever arrived at, I do not know. They were fanciful in the extreme."

One thing Karl Suleman knew about was the value of being seen with the right people. The fact that the Froggy boss seemed to be making important friends among Sydney's Jewish business community impressed his fellow Assyrians back in Fairfield. "The only reason we as a community went blindly into the investment scheme is that we heard Karl was in with the Jewish community," one investor says bluntly.

At an official Assyrian dinner function in 2000, one of two rabbis who turned up with Suleman reportedly made a speech praising the businessman. Nati Stoliar, a wealthy Sydney property developer, was another of Suleman's new acquaintances. In court, Suleman explained that he was trying to work with Stoliar, that they wanted to become "a good property dealer ... to make good profits".

The two men were first linked in the media late last year as potential partners in a (now-abandoned) $80 million plan to make the fourth film of the Godfather series, although Stoliar was also reportedly in a party of people Suleman flew to Hamilton Island last April.

"I know the guy," Stoliar tells Good Weekend. "He is a very humble guy. He was always talking about his community. He wanted to put his community on the map."

If having rabbis, priests and businessmen speak well of him did wonders for Suleman's image, partying with former US presidents had his community open-mouthed with admiration. When Bill Clinton visited Australia last year, Suleman forked out more than $150,000 for the honour of having the ex-president sit next to him at a fundraising dinner for the Children's Hospital at Westmead. He also flew Clinton around the country, and entertained him on board his luxury cruiser. A few weeks later, he outlaid more money to fete another former president, George Bush Snr, at a Froggy-sponsored Melbourne Cup lunch. ("Do you know," Suleman tells me wonderingly, "George Bush did not even know Assyrians were Christians, not Muslims?")

Back in Fairfield, members of the Assyrian community were agog, and eager to be part of it all. "There was a period of time for about three months out here when everyone was trying to get loans, doing anything to get loans, faking names - anything to invest with Karl," says one investor.

But one of Suleman's former flying instructors remains mystified by his reputation as a business genius. Describing his affable former pupil - "the kind of character who always greeted you by putting his arms around you and kissing you on the cheek" - the instructor says Suleman was simply incapable of dealing with paperwork. A simple, written rules-of-the-air exam, which Suleman needed to pass before he could fly solo (though only in air space close to the aerodrome), was obviously an ordeal for the businessman. "The first thing I noticed was his inability to concentrate ... I went through the exam with him, and it took hours. He could only [concentrate] for 15 minutes at a time," the instructor says.

Suleman never did get his pilot's licence.

As the court hearings continue, KSE seems like nothing so much as a giant jigsaw puzzle whose pieces don't always fit. Suleman, prefacing all his answers with the word "privilege" to protect the evidence from being used in any criminal proceedings (as do many of his associates), hasn't been able to clearly explain how his own investment scheme actually worked. KSE operated without cash books, and with scarcely any records of investors' names. It wasn't unusual for six-figure cash sums to arrive at his Liverpool office in plastic shopping bags.

Contracts bearing Suleman's signature and promising investors fortnightly payments of $8000 were produced in court. Suleman said he had not drawn up the contracts, only signed them. He claimed that some of the agents who collected the funds weren't working for him at all, though liquidator Paul Weston says, "We believe there is evidence to suggest that some of them at least were acting in accordance with his instructions, and certainly with his knowledge. We believe others just took it upon themselves because of the fact that commissions [of 10 per cent] were being paid to people to introduce investors."




Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 11:36:59 PM »
continued....

Two of the agents, Sargon Oshana and Jessie George, once close friends of Suleman, fled overseas after ASIC closed in and have had their assets frozen by Horwath's. Oshana, who was one of the Men in Black, is rumoured to be in Dubai. George was tracked down recently in the US. Despite the fact that Horwath's understood he was returning to Australia to give evidence, at the time of writing he seemed to have gone to ground once again. (Cash and properties in the US in the names of some of George's relatives have been frozen.)

Among Suleman's associates grilled by Horwath's counsel Jim Thomson, a Liverpool accountant, Roger Hyde, looked particularly uncomfortable in the spotlight. In a memorable court session, Hyde pleaded documented short-term memory loss - which has afflicted others as well.

Another agent, former truck driver Sam Babanour, also "couldn't recall" what he'd done with $100,000 that had arrived at the office one day, although he had no trouble remembering that he had asked Suleman if he would give him his Mercedes 280SL. "As a friend, he give it to me. Gave the keys the same day I asked for it," he told the court.

Suleman has had memory problems, too. Thomson asked him about one cheque for $261,000 which was made out to the businessman. Did he receive it? "I believe so." Thomson: "For what purpose?" Suleman: "I don't know."

Appearing occasionally among the spectators in court has been Henrick Isaac, a partner with Sydney legal firm Barclay Benson. Isaac has filed a statement of claim in the NSW District Court on behalf of more than 100 investors who are now suing KSE's advisers.

Adriana Xenides, the glamorous former hostess on Channel 7's game show Wheel of Fortune, who became the public face of Froggy, still has kind words to say about Suleman. "I've seen him give thousands of dollars to people who came up to him in the street, who were unemployed, or people he knew who were actively looking for work," she says. "He'd say to me, 'You know, Adri, that man has been looking for work for eight months.' He was very kind-hearted. I think he wanted to help his community - to give back to his community. He's a very humble person. He said to me he learned a lot about spelling from the Wheel of Fortune program, as so many migrant people did. I think people glorified him because of the charitable deeds he did."

She believes Suleman's sense of loyalty worked against him. "I remember once we were outside a coffee shop in Liverpool, and several people gave him cheques to sign, and I couldn't help seeing that they were completely blank cheques," she says.

"I said, 'Karl, do you know what you're doing, signing cheques when you don't know what they're for?' He looked at me in a very bemused way and said, 'These people [the agents] are my brothers', which is how he always referred to people who were close to him."

Where will it all end? Who else will be caught in ASIC's net? And what does Suleman's future hold?

"I know I was a fool," he says, "but let's wait and see who comes out clean at the end. If I had wanted to rip people off, I could have taken off with the money. Unlike some others, I have not run away or tried to leave the country. I have stayed to try to help the liquidators and to face whatever might happen to me as a result of the court proceedings. I think the liquidators are doing a hell of a good job. I'm very pleased with them. They are tracking things down. And Jim Thomson is doing a damn good job."

We part on the footpath outside Horwath's, where Suleman is due at a meeting. As he turns to go, a passer-by, who looks as if he might be Assyrian, appears startled when he recognises the businessman. "Hey, brother!" he says, in a tone of unmistakable admiration. Suleman looks delighted, claps him on the arm, then disappears inside the building.

Offline WhosYourBaghdaddy?

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2006, 12:33:11 AM »

Assyrian Voice Forum

Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2006, 12:33:11 AM »

Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2006, 01:07:04 AM »
a lot of ppl here especially those overseas dont know the story, thats why i pasted it here! i 

Offline WhosYourBaghdaddy?

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2006, 07:54:36 AM »
You perfectly fit category 1 of Mar Bawai supporters (besides the 3rd).
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=10721.msg210796#msg210796

Offline TheDoctor

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2006, 10:20:55 AM »
Just one question....what do you gain out of posts like this?

I thought we were going to try and get along in this forum? :)  Stuff like this just fuels arguments.

Come on Pete.....

If people overseas want to know they can search the internet.

Offline asdf

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2006, 02:57:15 PM »
Thanks for the info Sydneydue. You know how to do your research, and REPEAT IT AND SWAMP THE FORUM WITH THE SAME STORIES. KEEP IT UNDER ONE THREAD.

KEEP SPREADING THE GOOD WORD. LOL. YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL ALWAYS BE A JOKE TO THE ASSYRIAN COMMUNITY.

Offline sargonthedon

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2006, 04:19:37 PM »
Thanks for the info Sydneydue. You know how to do your research, and REPEAT IT AND SWAMP THE FORUM WITH THE SAME STORIES. KEEP IT UNDER ONE THREAD.

KEEP SPREADING THE GOOD WORD. LOL. YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL ALWAYS BE A JOKE TO THE ASSYRIAN COMMUNITY.


Doesnt this quote come under personal insults?

Offline aka_Atour

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2006, 04:38:23 PM »
Thanks for the info Sydneydue. You know how to do your research, and REPEAT IT AND SWAMP THE FORUM WITH THE SAME STORIES. KEEP IT UNDER ONE THREAD.

KEEP SPREADING THE GOOD WORD. LOL. YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL ALWAYS BE A JOKE TO THE ASSYRIAN COMMUNITY.
You hide behind a computer with a name that looks like you didn't take the time to complete a simple and easy registration. Sydneydude hides behind nothing. He is out in the open, so it is easy for us to judge him.
This really gets to me.... His family is a joke???? Who the hell are you to be saying such a thing? You're a joke for your poor choice of words. I whole heartily suggest you never say this again and apologize.  I would just like to tell you Mar Bawai's supporters are in substantial numbers and heavily motivated, many of them educated and well to do. 

I’ll take this comment as a lack of your proper etiquette.  :ban:



Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2006, 05:08:50 PM »
2200 Assyrian families lost their life savings, houses, cars, businesses and most importantly trust within their own community.

They lost is because they had faith in Karl Suleman and the leaders of the community who guided them into the scheme.

They thought they were investing in a company called Froggy and i just wanted everybody to see one perspective of who named that company.

Maybe you dont care, but the 2,200 that lost over $160m do care!

If you dont find the thread interesting because it doesnt touch you to see your fellow brothers lose their wealth so easily then just ignor it and move on...its easy no need for personal insults.

Once again im only quoting what Karl Suleman's own accountant said from what he saw. The comments in the story are not my own words.

The purpose of this all...Restore accountability within our Church and Community.

Offline Blue

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2006, 11:45:07 PM »
LLLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO...I mean come one sydneydude, guy, or what the ever the heck your name is.  This is old news bro.  Go find other topics to try to divide our community just like Bawai is teaching you.  I guess this is what Bawai is teaching to divide our people by posting meaningless stuff like this.  This is no relevance what so freakin ever to what your Bawai is doing amongst our assyrian community.  Your Bawai has done more in dividing our assyrian community by preaching false unity.  So before you start finding some meaningless websites and to copy and past stuff that is of no relevance to what is going on here to claim that Mar Meelis is corrupted  you might want to look into your Bawai and see what kind of corruption he's accomplishing by dividing us.  Old news bro...old freakin new..but nice try though.....Long live MAR MEELIS and our WONDERFUL ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST  LED BY HIS GRACE  MAR DINKHA THE IV....Peace Brethrens....
Any man may be in good spirits and good temper when he’s well dressed. There ain’t much credit in that.

Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2006, 11:59:53 PM »
LLLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO...I mean come one sydneydude, guy, or what the ever the heck your name is.  This is old news bro.  Go find other topics to try to divide our community just like Bawai is teaching you.  I guess this is what Bawai is teaching to divide our people by posting meaningless stuff like this.  This is no relevance what so freakin ever to what your Bawai is doing amongst our assyrian community.  Your Bawai has done more in dividing our assyrian community by preaching false unity.  So before you start finding some meaningless websites and to copy and past stuff that is of no relevance to what is going on here to claim that Mar Meelis is corrupted  you might want to look into your Bawai and see what kind of corruption he's accomplishing by dividing us.  Old news bro...old freakin new..but nice try though.....Long live MAR MEELIS and our WONDERFUL ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST  LED BY HIS GRACE  MAR DINKHA THE IV....Peace Brethrens....

Old news to you maybe, reality for the thousands of Assyrians who are still working to pay off their mortgages, save their marriages and provide an education for their children. All broken dreams because they thought they were investing in an internet company called Froggy which was a pyramid scheme. Who named Froggy? Our Bishop here in Sydney. Philip Pham's words not mine.

Why dont you come visit us in Sydney and walk around saying your comments to those who are still bleeding from the scheme ?

Ill be your host.

Offline aka_Atour

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 12:06:58 AM »
LLLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO...I mean come one sydneydude, guy, or what the ever the heck your name is.  This is old news bro.  Go find other topics to try to divide our community just like Bawai is teaching you.  I guess this is what Bawai is teaching to divide our people by posting meaningless stuff like this.  This is no relevance what so freakin ever to what your Bawai is doing amongst our assyrian community.  Your Bawai has done more in dividing our assyrian community by preaching false unity.  So before you start finding some meaningless websites and to copy and past stuff that is of no relevance to what is going on here to claim that Mar Meelis is corrupted  you might want to look into your Bawai and see what kind of corruption he's accomplishing by dividing us.  Old news bro...old freakin new..but nice try though.....Long live MAR MEELIS and our WONDERFUL ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST  LED BY HIS GRACE  MAR DINKHA THE IV....Peace Brethrens....
I can see the reason to why sydneydude is posting this.... ^^^^^^^ You think we can push this behind. It seems everyone wants to push everything behind. But you know what budy??? The past catches up with you. I know you don't care about those 2,200 Assyrian families, you probably think they were "suckers," so we should just forget about them right? WRONG! These people lost their life saving since Mar Meelis went out and supported FROGGY. My cousin’s uncle trusted Mar Meelis; he lost most of his life saving $80,000. Go tell him to forget about it. It’s still affecting him till this day.
Anyways I'm Tired. I don't have time for this today....

God Bless
Aka Atour

Offline JooJee

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 12:56:23 AM »
LLLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO...I mean come one sydneydude, guy, or what the ever the heck your name is.  This is old news bro.  Go find other topics to try to divide our community just like Bawai is teaching you.  I guess this is what Bawai is teaching to divide our people by posting meaningless stuff like this.  This is no relevance what so freakin ever to what your Bawai is doing amongst our assyrian community.  Your Bawai has done more in dividing our assyrian community by preaching false unity.  So before you start finding some meaningless websites and to copy and past stuff that is of no relevance to what is going on here to claim that Mar Meelis is corrupted  you might want to look into your Bawai and see what kind of corruption he's accomplishing by dividing us.  Old news bro...old freakin new..but nice try though.....Long live MAR MEELIS and our WONDERFUL ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST  LED BY HIS GRACE  MAR DINKHA THE IV....Peace Brethrens....

Old news to you maybe, reality for the thousands of Assyrians who are still working to pay off their mortgages, save their marriages and provide an education for their children. All broken dreams because they thought they were investing in an internet company called Froggy which was a pyramid scheme. Who named Froggy? Our Bishop here in Sydney. Philip Pham's words not mine.

Why dont you come visit us in Sydney and walk around saying your comments to those who are still bleeding from the scheme ?

Ill be your host.

i agree...its broken up so many families its not even funny!

When the world seems to shine, like you've had too much wine...that's Amore... <3

Offline Salem

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 04:38:07 AM »
KEEP SPREADING THE GOOD WORD. LOL. YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL ALWAYS BE A JOKE TO THE ASSYRIAN COMMUNITY.

LLLLLMMMMMMAAAAAAOOOOOOOOO...I mean come one sydneydude, guy, or what the ever the heck your name is.  This is old news bro.  Go find other topics to try to divide our community just like Bawai is teaching you.  I guess this is what Bawai is teaching to divide our people by posting meaningless stuff like this.  This is no relevance what so freakin ever to what your Bawai is doing amongst our assyrian community.  Your Bawai has done more in dividing our assyrian community by preaching false unity.  So before you start finding some meaningless websites and to copy and past stuff that is of no relevance to what is going on here to claim that Mar Meelis is corrupted  you might want to look into your Bawai and see what kind of corruption he's accomplishing by dividing us.  Old news bro...old freakin new..but nice try though.....Long live MAR MEELIS and our WONDERFUL ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST  LED BY HIS GRACE  MAR DINKHA THE IV....Peace Brethrens....


Both members have been suspended for 1 week.


Offline Ankido

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 07:41:24 AM »
Salem,

You need to be fair to all parties.  If you can't see anything wrong with Sydney Dude's post, there's got to be something wrong here.  I mean what is the purpose of it? it is old news, it is divisive, its fueling more anger and hatred among everyone, where is the Christian spirit behind it as he claims to be a true Christian?  If you allow stupid and thoughtless posts like this one go on, this destructive hatred between both parties will never cease.  You should have seen this coming and should have taken the post off or at least told SD to be a bit more mature and constructive. 
To him who is afflicted, kindness should be shown by his friend, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.  Job 6:14

Offline sargonthedon

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 08:07:19 AM »
This might be old news to you but i found it interesting! If you see a post you dont like or dont agree with why dont you just ignore it?

Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 08:45:56 AM »
Salem,

You need to be fair to all parties.  If you can't see anything wrong with Sydney Dude's post, there's got to be something wrong here.  I mean what is the purpose of it? it is old news, it is divisive, its fueling more anger and hatred among everyone, where is the Christian spirit behind it as he claims to be a true Christian?  If you allow stupid and thoughtless posts like this one go on, this destructive hatred between both parties will never cease.  You should have seen this coming and should have taken the post off or at least told SD to be a bit more mature and constructive. 

Brother this post isnt what i have written. It was something published in a Sydney Newspaper which thousands of people here have read, mostly non-assyrians. If you think its pointless then write an email to the Sydney Morning Herald. I have just expressed views that have been made public in Sydney and i think many more people overseas dont know the full story of the Karl Suleman collapse.

If you think being a Christian is about shutting up and putting up with things as mentioned in the article then i think you are extremely misguided. However that is your point of view and you have the right to express it. Maybe its stupid and thoughtless to you but to many others it is an important piece of information.

Ask yourself why it may seem offensive. Is it because it hurts to see such members of the Church embroiled in such scandals ? I hurt too when i read it, but it is a fact that we must face and correct. As Christians its ok to ask questions. I havent convicted anybody of anything, rather raising an important issue for discussion. If you can refute these claims then please go ahead and enlighten us all. I seriously want to hear the answers to the points raised.

Many historical events still get discussed in other societies. The Jews still discuss the Holocaust. The Americans continue to discuss and teach their children about their bloody civil war. So why do we as Assyrians always try to cover up the problems we have in the past ? Wont this lesson ring a bell in people's minds the next time we are confronted with such challenges ?


Offline Ankido

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2006, 08:48:48 AM »
Where have you been the last 4 years, on the moon?  you are missing the point completely.  Our nation and people need reconciling, not more division and hatred.  Should i be any more clearer? there are many slanderous and useless articles like this one that can be posted by both sides, my question is what is the point of all this? what good is doing to anyone?
To him who is afflicted, kindness should be shown by his friend, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.  Job 6:14

Offline Ankido

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2006, 08:56:22 AM »
Pete,

You are dodging the question and you know it.  It doesn't matter who wrote it, you brought it up and threw some more fuel on the fire.  So, people haven't read it? come on Pete, surely there's honesty in you? that's one of the lousiest excuses i have heard.  Just bout everyone on this planet knows about it.  Why are you fueling this already disastrous situation? what good is an article like this?.  I didn't say a Christian has to be silent, you are not walking in the spirit of Christ when your motives and intentions are to cause more damage and harm, that's excatly what you are doing.
To him who is afflicted, kindness should be shown by his friend, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.  Job 6:14

Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 09:00:19 AM »
i have been in sydney living within a community that has lost trust and been struggling to recover from the collapse of the scheme. i see many people working second jobs, people selling their houses, families being broken up and fights breaking out. our community is in a slow recovery process. even when i go to shopping centres i see middle aged assyrian men pushing trolleys to earn money because they lost big through the scheme. at the service station i go to i see dads working overtime because they must meet mortgage payments. through my work experience i have encountered assyrians filing for bankruptcies and seeking financial advice. that is where i have been buddy, here in my community trying to help. we can nolonger sweep the facts under the carpet. 2200 families isnt just a statistic, these are lives of our fellow brothers and sisters.  

we can only reconcile when we begin to trust eachother. in order to trust somebody and for them to trust me we must each be accountable for our actions. if i have lied or deceived you in the past how could you possibly trust me in the future? me and some fellow assyrian business partners had an idea recently to begin an assyrian community bank like other regional/community banks. the biggest problem we found is that assyrians wont trust anybody with their money anymore...where does that leave us? how do we expect to buy back our villiages and build infrastructure in any future homeland. how are we going to set up institutions like hospitals, roads, schools and government buildings when people dont even trust eachother with as little as $20 anymore. see the impact such scandals can cause ?

lets face and discuss the problems so that in the future we know exactly what happend and try to prevent it. when another karl suleman comes to me now there is no way i will invest any money. why? because i have learnt from my mistake. lets continue to learn and uncover what really happend.

i dont think this article is slanderous. it refers to eyewitness accounts and court proceedings. testamonies and advice from professionals. i think it expresses a very interesting piece of investagative journalism by probably the most read newspaper in Australia if not the southern hemispher.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 09:05:29 AM by sydneydude »

Offline Senator_Danavi

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 04:28:40 PM »
It also addresses a dire need for accountability within the leaders of our nation & church.

Something that due to the current scandal is being way overlooked.

Thanks Pete.

God Bless!!!

Offline Salem

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2006, 08:40:35 AM »
Salem,

You need to be fair to all parties.  If you can't see anything wrong with Sydney Dude's post, there's got to be something wrong here.  I mean what is the purpose of it? it is old news, it is divisive, its fueling more anger and hatred among everyone, where is the Christian spirit behind it as he claims to be a true Christian?  If you allow stupid and thoughtless posts like this one go on, this destructive hatred between both parties will never cease.  You should have seen this coming and should have taken the post off or at least told SD to be a bit more mature and constructive. 

Ankido,

I am trying to be fair to all parties, but I dont believe that in order to be fair, I need to stop people from discussing such matters.

I do not have a problem with someone disagreeing with a bishop or the church as long as they don't use that opportunity to disrespect others. I haven't stopped members of the opposing side from starting threads that are against Mar Bawai, "RebelRebel" has 2-3 threads about such matters already and I'm fine with them as long as they remain to be respecful of everyone.


Thanks
Salem

Offline KhleeTa56

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2006, 07:12:10 PM »
This might be old news to you but i found it interesting! If you see a post you dont like or dont agree with why dont you just ignore it?
WOW  give me a break...as if u guys don't go crying to the admins about something u don't like.  i don't see anybody ignoring anything on these forums!  so just save it

and salem
u banned 2 ppl who said something disrespectful without a warning la? u posted a warning to sydneydude in "mar bawai bible study", but not to others? and those 2 u banned were both supporters of the Church Of the East, but u let sydneydude slide and he's supporter of mar bawai....

i know u say ur not on either side, but then why does it look like u do?  :blink:
life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


Offline sydneydude

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2006, 07:32:24 PM »
 :hmmm:

Offline KhleeTa56

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2006, 07:48:26 PM »
life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2006, 10:02:52 PM »
Why did everyone else see the warnings but not you? 
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline aka_Atour

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2006, 11:04:44 PM »
Why did everyone else see the warnings but not you? 
:hmmm:

Offline KhleeTa56

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2006, 12:14:38 AM »
Why did everyone else see the warnings but not you? 
link please

(edit: and i highly doubt that's what sydneydude was thinking b/c if it was he would have said that  :mrgreen: )
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 12:23:29 AM by KhleeTa56 »
life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2006, 12:29:48 AM »
Check every thread that is related to this and you will clearly see Salem's warnings.  La Basakh? 

Anyway, I was not speaking for SydneyDude but myself.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline KhleeTa56

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2006, 12:34:26 AM »
Check every thread that is related to this and you will clearly see Salem's warnings.  La Basakh? 

Anyway, I was not speaking for SydneyDude but myself.
that doesn't mean anything! i want RECENT links of this new rule being broken.  b/c sydneydude broke it and got a warning and i assume it's only fair to either give everyone a warning or not.  and la basee? what does it look like i'm doing? making a POINT that u can no longer argue?  :giggle:

and it's funny how u tell me to stop when u're the one who continues to butt in?   
life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


Offline RadRides

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2006, 12:39:39 AM »
 :bigarmhug: group hug!!

Offline KhleeTa56

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life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


Offline RadRides

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2006, 12:50:22 AM »
thanks.  bani, im waiting on u bro.  its gettin a lil cold.  im gonna ask khleeta for more hugs haha

Offline KhleeTa56

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Re: who named Froggy? the collapse of an Assyrian "empire"
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2006, 12:51:24 AM »
thanks.  bani, im waiting on u bro.  its gettin a lil cold.  im gonna ask khleeta for more hugs haha
:lmao:

gooooooooodnight
life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it


 

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