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Are you as an Assyrian FOR or AGAINST Kurdistan referendum

Author Topic: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .  (Read 1654 times)

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Offline nejepnerast

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What is your opinion as an Assyrian about the Kurdish referendum happening in September this year . See the poll above
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:02:26 PM by nejepnerast »



Offline mrzurnaci

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for it. I'd a bit of a sociology enthusiast and I'm interested to see where a new generation of Kurds who've grown up post-independence would get their newest inspiration and direction from.

Most if not all of modern Kurdish political drive comes from wanting sovereignty. What would post-sovereignty drive consist of? Islamism?

All other reasons why I'm for it is classified.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 04:56:09 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Cascade

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For it.

At least they can have a country of their own as Kurdistan is becoming rather stable and becoming developed (but this is NOT to say that Kurds are perfect people). What does it matter for us? I really hate how Assyrians living and prospering in the west are getting mad that Kurds all the way in the Middle East are having a country? I mean, who friggin' cares? You're in America! Many of us want to move out from there already. Our homeland is gone now and we should accept this brutal fact. We are already prospering in the west, and many of the so-called patriotic Assyrians in the homeland are dying just to get here (literally even).

The Romans, the Persians, the Mongols and, Iraqi Arabs have all took our land, and now it's left for Kurds? Come on.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

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Offline Nemrud

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I dont mind but l dont want them to take the nineveh plains from us, its our only land left. I also want them to have religious freedom, more like the west.

Offline Crocodile Bani

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I am against.

Reason 1.  It will complete the wiping out of Assyrian influence in the region.  Everybody other than Assyrians will be represented in the region.  As an Assyrian, it smells of official defeat.

Reason 2.  Having a Kurdistan will create more turmoil in the region as there are too many countries around "Kurdistan" who don't like the Kurds merely for being Kurds.  As if there isn't enough turmoil in the Middle East, this will create more problems.  And when there are problems in the Middle East, we all knows which countries always profit from it.  Being an anti-Imperialist/anti-Wahhabist/anti-Zionist, I am concerned about who really gains in the long term from a Kurdistan.  The Kurds are just pawns (just like Assyrians for many years) for imperialists.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (*1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline nejepnerast

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I certainly respect everyones opinion even if they are against the independent of Kurdistan and there are certainly valid concerns , but Iraq is radicalized completely and the conflict between shia and sunna will last another 100 years if not more . The minorities will continue being the victims of such conflict which creates a perfect ground for continued migration of Assyrian to the west . No one certainly would wants live in a region where there is explosions on daily basis .
Secondly what possible rights can Assyrian secure with Iraq ? would Assyrian secure any form of autonomy within iraq ? 

Offline Cascade

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If anything, Kurdistan can be its own nation with Assyrians having a small autonomous region (the Nineveh Plains).
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Mr. Tambourine Man

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If anything, Kurdistan can be its own nation with Assyrians having a small autonomous region (the Nineveh Plains).

My friend can be the CEO and I'll be his secretary.
''An anthropologist squeezed my arm, just for the satisfaction of having touched the flesh and blood of an Assyrian.'' - Ivan Kakovitch

Offline mrzurnaci

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If anything, Kurdistan can be its own nation with Assyrians having a small autonomous region (the Nineveh Plains).

exactly, why do Kurds need Nineveh Plains when KRG has enough land to house millions of Kurds in and of itself? If you build up the cities and put condos and apartment complexes (not even high apartments, think 3 story apartment complex) you can house maybe 70-100 million people.

Offline nejepnerast

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exactly, why do Kurds need Nineveh Plains when KRG has enough land to house millions of Kurds in and of itself? If you build up the cities and put condos and apartment complexes (not even high apartments, think 3 story apartment complex) you can house maybe 70-100 million people.
mrzurnaci . I think i did explain the social composition of Nineveh plain in a previous post , but the trend here seem to be that Nineveh plain is full of Assyrian and everyone believes that .

Assyrian are not majority in the plains and  they have the lowest number among the minorities in Nineveh plain . Assyrian vote is obvious as seen in this poll, but it is not up to them what happens in Nineveh plain .

I speak from a neutral positon , so i hope you do not get offended .

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2017, 11:43:47 AM »
If anything, Kurdistan can be its own nation with Assyrians having a small autonomous region (the Nineveh Plains).

Yes , but autonomous region within Kurdistan or Iraq ?

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 02:48:00 PM »
mrzurnaci . I think i did explain the social composition of Nineveh plain in a previous post , but the trend here seem to be that Nineveh plain is full of Assyrian and everyone believes that .

Assyrian are not majority in the plains and  they have the lowest number among the minorities in Nineveh plain . Assyrian vote is obvious as seen in this poll, but it is not up to them what happens in Nineveh plain .

I speak from a neutral positon , so i hope you do not get offended .

Assyrians make up 40% of the Nineveh Plains... why do you keep downplaying 40%? That's almost half the damn population.

Everybody else in the NP are Yezids, Turkmens, Shabaks, and then (Muslim) Kurds.

What percentage are Kurds in NP? Turkmens? Shabaks? Yezids?

Waht about Yezidis who want the NP to be autonomous? There's Turkmen and Shabaks who support this.

You make it sound like Kurds like yourself are intentionally being an obstacle to something Assyrians deserve for over 2600 years.

Whether you think it's wrong or not, we're gonna get autonomy eventually. we've been trying for 2600 years and we'll try for another 2600 years if necessary.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:50:29 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 03:55:33 PM »
What have we ever done to the kurds? The kurds have through history killed us millions of times and we didnt Do anything and when we want autonomy and accept a kurdish country still they wont allow it, they are so mean, at first l thought the Kurdish were nice muslims but how this is going l dont think they are. Everybody deserve their own country, it doesnt matter who you are, what religion you got, all. And they wont let us have a small place like the nineveh plains ffs! Probably they would kill us all if they had opportunity but they cant because other nations are watching, so they play good muslims to get a country of their own. Thats how l see it, even non muslim kurd like that guy nejer something wont allow a autonomy for assyrians, the first people in mesopotamia considering no ancient people from the past lives in todays world, we are the descendants of mesopotamias and we dammit deserve a country or autonomy!

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 08:04:55 PM »
What have we ever done to the kurds? The kurds have through history killed us millions of times and we didnt Do anything and when we want autonomy and accept a kurdish country still they wont allow it, they are so mean, at first l thought the Kurdish were nice muslims but how this is going l dont think they are. Everybody deserve their own country, it doesnt matter who you are, what religion you got, all. And they wont let us have a small place like the nineveh plains ffs! Probably they would kill us all if they had opportunity but they cant because other nations are watching, so they play good muslims to get a country of their own. Thats how l see it, even non muslim kurd like that guy nejer something wont allow a autonomy for assyrians, the first people in mesopotamia considering no ancient people from the past lives in todays world, we are the descendants of mesopotamias and we dammit deserve a country or autonomy!
Bro , Kurds is the least of your problem and kurdish politicians said over and over that they are FOR Assyrian and Chaldean autonomy and self administrations . In fact i believe that kurds wants nothing more than establishing an Assyrian state as a belt to separate them completely from arabs .

what I'm stating is just my personal opinion and I just do not see that happening considering the assyrian numbers in NP .

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 08:06:38 PM »
Assyrians make up 40% of the Nineveh Plains... why do you keep downplaying 40%? That's almost half the damn population.

Everybody else in the NP are Yezids, Turkmens, Shabaks, and then (Muslim) Kurds.

What percentage are Kurds in NP? Turkmens? Shabaks? Yezids?

Waht about Yezidis who want the NP to be autonomous? There's Turkmen and Shabaks who support this.

You make it sound like Kurds like yourself are intentionally being an obstacle to something Assyrians deserve for over 2600 years.

Whether you think it's wrong or not, we're gonna get autonomy eventually. we've been trying for 2600 years and we'll try for another 2600 years if necessary.

mrzurnaci , I stopped at 40%  . where did you get this number ? the entire Assyrian population in iraq ,I mean the whole iraq is by all estimate is 300-400 thousands , so how does that make 40% of NP ?
https://www.google.ca/#q=assyrian+population+in+iraq
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:10:59 PM by nejepnerast »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2017, 09:00:44 PM »
mrzurnaci , I stopped at 40%  . where did you get this number ? the entire Assyrian population in iraq ,I mean the whole iraq is by all estimate is 300-400 thousands , so how does that make 40% of NP ?
https://www.google.ca/#q=assyrian+population+in+iraq


where did I get 40% from your FELLOW KURDS -> http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/24012014
"The Nineveh Plain has the largest population of Christians in Iraq. They make up around 40 percent of the population of the planned new province. They now live in a so-called disputed area: Iraqi territory that Kurdistan claims for its autonomous region."

By Judit Neurink 24/1/2014

40% is not a small number, that's almost half the damn population. 40% of NP is one people.

Here's another comparison. Lebanon is 40% Christian and 60% Muslim but the Muslim population is divided into Shi'a and Sunni (both 30%).

Also, why is it that Kurds get autonomy with the KRG when Iraqi Kurds only make up 26% of the population? From the CIA factbook, Kurds make up 15%-20% of Iraq's total population. -> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2075.html#iz

you're showing clear bias here now.

Offline Mr. Tambourine Man

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2017, 11:34:46 PM »
Bro , Kurds is the least of your problem and kurdish politicians said over and over that they are FOR Assyrian and Chaldean autonomy and self administrations . In fact i believe that kurds wants nothing more than establishing an Assyrian state as a belt to separate them completely from arabs .

what I'm stating is just my personal opinion and I just do not see that happening considering the assyrian numbers in NP .

Kurds support Chaldean organisations because they know they are divisive and harmful to the overall Assyrian cause.

You are lying to yourself or just plain naive if you think Kurds will truly do anything for the betterment of us Assyrians.
''An anthropologist squeezed my arm, just for the satisfaction of having touched the flesh and blood of an Assyrian.'' - Ivan Kakovitch

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 12:37:39 AM »
where did I get 40% from your FELLOW KURDS -> http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/24012014
"The Nineveh Plain has the largest population of Christians in Iraq. They make up around 40 percent of the population of the planned new province. They now live in a so-called disputed area: Iraqi territory that Kurdistan claims for its autonomous region."

By Judit Neurink 24/1/2014

40% is not a small number, that's almost half the damn population. 40% of NP is one people.

Here's another comparison. Lebanon is 40% Christian and 60% Muslim but the Muslim population is divided into Shi'a and Sunni (both 30%).

Also, why is it that Kurds get autonomy with the KRG when Iraqi Kurds only make up 26% of the population? From the CIA factbook, Kurds make up 15%-20% of Iraq's total population. -> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2075.html#iz

you're showing clear bias here now.


Oh , Ok , so you English is bad .

It is 40% of the Planned (does not exist yet ) new province .  So this imaginary province will include the Assyrian villages and few other minorities and Assyrian population within this Planned ( does not exist yet) province will constitute 40 % .  It is not talking about assyrian being 40% of entire NP . I would be surprised if they are more than 3 % of NP . 

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 12:50:07 AM by nejepnerast »

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 12:43:49 AM »
Kurds support Chaldean organisations because they know they are divisive and harmful to the overall Assyrian cause.

You are lying to yourself or just plain naive if you think Kurds will truly do anything for the betterment of us Assyrians.

I do not believe Kurds will do anything if it is not in there interest . No one does anything if it is not in there interest and this is the reality . Look at the results of the poll and tell me why would a typical kurds care about the betterment of Assyrian ? It is naive to think that kurds will do all the work and simply hand the keys to Assyrian .

Offline Mr. Tambourine Man

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2017, 12:11:27 AM »
Yes, it must be tiring and exhausting for the Kurds to steal Assyrian lands, claim Assyrian history and disseminate lies about the Assyrians. You're right, the Kurdish workload is tiresome.

Look at the polls yourself, those for the Kurdish referendum are only one behind those against it - unless of course you find one vote, or any vote, against the Kurdish referendum enough reason not to help the indigenous people of those lands. I suppose you'd want all of us to vote, better yet, fund the establishment of a Kurdish state.

Additionally, your justification is stupid. You legitimise the Kurdish funding and proliferation of the Chaldean identity because 'there is an interest there'; what you're basically saying is that the Kurds realise how advantageous it is for them to lie about a Chaldean identity because it'll prohibit the unification of Assyrians.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:14:57 AM by Mr. Tambourine Man »
''An anthropologist squeezed my arm, just for the satisfaction of having touched the flesh and blood of an Assyrian.'' - Ivan Kakovitch

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 01:21:25 AM »
Yes, it must be tiring and exhausting for the Kurds to steal Assyrian lands, claim Assyrian history and disseminate lies about the Assyrians. You're right, the Kurdish workload is tiresome.

Sorry Mr.Tambourine , I'm actually recently left Kurdistan and I'm not aware of any land being confiscated by KRG , Can you shed some light on that by providing some evidence ?  or Are you talking about the Ancient history ?

claim Assyrian history ? Just to make it fun , I promise I will send you the biggest gift I could possibly afford if you can prove this :). Kurd have never ever made such claims and would never ever do for very obvious reasons   .

Look at the polls yourself, those for the Kurdish referendum are only one behind those against it - unless of course you find one vote, or any vote, against the Kurdish referendum enough reason not to help the indigenous people of those lands. I suppose you'd want all of us to vote, better yet, fund the establishment of a Kurdish state.

At the end of the day majority are either do not care or opposed it and I have ZERO issues with that as an individual . But let us be frank here , the animosity among our people is real and honestly i was not even aware of it when i was in Kurdistan . As I said I have no personal issue with Assyrian Vote and I understand it to a certain extend , but let me ask you this  . how would you feel if the result of the this vote was for the establishment of autonomous region for Assyrian in Kurdistan and majority of Kurds opposed it ?

I do not believe an independent Kurdistan will have any effect on the Assyrian identity and there is a real possibility that Assyrian could finally get their rights and establish a region on their own , Yet majority is voting No ! Do not you find that a bit strange ? Frankly I'm just curious and I want to understand .

Additionally, your justification is stupid. You legitimise the Kurdish funding and proliferation of the Chaldean identity because 'there is an interest there'; what you're basically saying is that the Kurds realise how advantageous it is for them to lie about a Chaldean identity because it'll prohibit the unification of Assyrians.
I never talked about Chaldean , so I have no clue what you are saying .Chaldean as far as I know have their own identity and wants nothing to do with Assyrian . Are you claiming that Chaldean are Assyrian are the same and some how the kurds are the reason for your separation  ? oh ok i get , you are upset because Kurds accepting the Chaldean identity and not telling them that they are Assyrian and that is causing the division among Assyrians including Chaldean who are Assyrian , but just not smart enough to know ?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 10:54:54 AM by nejepnerast »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 03:02:11 AM »
Sorry Mr.Tambourine , I'm actually recently left Kurdistan and I'm not aware of any land being confiscated by KRG , Can you shed some light on that by providing some evidence ?  or Are you talking about the Ancient history ?

At the end of the day majority are either do not care or opposed it and I have ZERO issues with that as an individual . But let us be frank here , the animosity among our people is real and honestly i was not even aware of it when i was in Kurdistan . As I said I have no personal issue with Assyrian Vote and I understand it to a certain extend , but let me ask you this  . how would you feel if the result of the this vote was for the establishment of autonomous region for Assyrian in Kurdistan and majority of Kurds opposed it ?

I do not believe an independent Kurdistan will have any effect on the Assyrian identity and there is a real possibility that Assyrian could finally get their rights and establish a region on their own , Yet majority is voting No ! Do not you find that a bit strange ? Frankly I'm just curious and I want to understand .
I never talked about Chaldean , so I have no clue what you are saying .Chaldean as far as I know have their own identity and wants nothing to do with Assyrian . Are you claiming that Chaldean are Assyrian are the same and some how the kurds are the reason for your separation  ? oh ok i get , you are upset because Kurds accepting the Chaldean identity and not telling them that they are Assyrian and that is causing the division among Assyrians including Chaldean who are Assyrian , but just not smart enough to know ?


Kurds accepting Chaldean identity would be no different to Assyrians accepting the Yazidi identity separate from Kurds.

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »
Kurds accepting Chaldean identity would be no different to Assyrians accepting the Yazidi identity separate from Kurds.

and I have no issue if they decided to call themselves Assyrian tommorrow  . I met many Chaldean in Dohuk and honestly if it is up to me I will nominate a Chaldean to be the first president of Kurdistan if it ever get established . Hell I will make half of the parliament Chaldean and sleep like a baby knowing Kurdistan is in Good hand because of kind of people Chaldean are .

Khili libokh Chaldanaya  :bigarmhug:

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2017, 04:46:24 PM »
and I have no issue if they decided to call themselves Assyrian tommorrow  . I met many Chaldean in Dohuk and honestly if it is up to me I will nominate a Chaldean to be the first president of Kurdistan if it ever get established . Hell I will make half of the parliament Chaldean and sleep like a baby knowing Kurdistan is in Good hand because of kind of people Chaldean are .

Khili libokh Chaldanaya  :bigarmhug:

Also, why would the KRG make it public that they have groups of people stealing land? Assyrians aren't the only victims either, we Assyrians have also found out that Armenians and non-political Kurdish tribes were victimized in having their land taken as well.

What land was taken? farming land.

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 06:00:22 PM »
Also, why would the KRG make it public that they have groups of people stealing land? Assyrians aren't the only victims either, we Assyrians have also found out that Armenians and non-political Kurdish tribes were victimized in having their land taken as well.

What land was taken? farming land.

Mrzurnaci , let us be realistic please and not rely on rumeurs or my cousin said , my uncle said . Fine KRG would not make it public ,but what about the owner of the land ?
Show me a farmer that KRG took their land from . I mean seriously sometimes I feel you guys live on another planet . There is law and order in Kurdistan and no one would dare to take someone else land .

The public land is another matter and KRG has the right to develop as it see it fit no matter where it is even in the assyrian areas  . The problem is the allergy assyrian have towards kurds , On one hand they want the right to buy land , homes everywhere in Kurdistan , but they want to keep kurds within 10 miles from the nearest village . Land in Kurdistan is expensive and developing public land will happen whether people like or not because it belongs to all people not just the Assyrian . 

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 06:10:14 PM by nejepnerast »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 09:40:49 PM »
Mrzurnaci , let us be realistic please and not rely on rumeurs or my cousin said , my uncle said . Fine KRG would not make it public ,but what about the owner of the land ?
Show me a farmer that KRG took their land from . I mean seriously sometimes I feel you guys live on another planet . There is law and order in Kurdistan and no one would dare to take someone else land .

The public land is another matter and KRG has the right to develop as it see it fit no matter where it is even in the assyrian areas  . The problem is the allergy assyrian have towards kurds , On one hand they want the right to buy land , homes everywhere in Kurdistan , but they want to keep kurds within 10 miles from the nearest village . Land in Kurdistan is expensive and developing public land will happen whether people like or not because it belongs to all people not just the Assyrian . 




we assyrians already did investigations into this. Despite the way Assyrians phrase this issue, it's not the average Kurd taking land. It's Kurds with power that have the connections to do so. Kurds that are either related or have connections to either Barzani, Zebari, or other political clans using such influence to take land from, not just Assyrians, but less influential Kurdish clans, and even Armenians.

Here's my source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Kurdistan.Report.pdf
Here's the condensed version of the source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/KurdistanReport_short_FINAL_lowres.pdf

For the condensed version, I got my info from page 5 called "Control of Disputed Territories and Allegations of Kurdification"
on page 8 condensed version -> "Appropriation of Christian Land"

"Christian citizens of the KRI have issued complaints and
held protests against Kurdish residents for attacking and
seizing their land and villages in the provinces of Dohuk
and Erbil. Some Assyrian Christians accuse Kurdish gov-
ernment and party officials of taking lands for personal
use or financial gain. These Christians believe they
are specifically targeted as part of a policy to Kurdify
historically Christian areas. Other Christian leaders do
not believe a policy exists, but do concede that individual
Kurds and Kurdish businesses have been known to build
on or take Christian land.

Effectively, two types of land appropriation exist.
Significant portions of the claims are long-standing land
ownership issues. Through the late 20th century, Assyri-
ans were caught up in various regional uprisings and sup-
pressions. As a result of these events, large portions of the
population fled their homes and land, for which they con-
tinued to hold the deeds. Over time, Kurds moved in to the
fallow land. Now Christians are returning with their deeds
and attempting to reclaim lands or be compensated
.
In addition to these long-standing claims are
alleged incidents where powerful local officials or
businesses seize land on which to build new properties.
Assyrian leaders alluded to various cases where Kurd-
ish officials, or individuals or developers with links
to officials, have built on land owned by Christians
.
Seizures in the Nahla Valley have received particular
attention; here, Christians allege 42 encroachments in
the villages in recent years."
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:43:37 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2017, 12:21:36 AM »
we assyrians already did investigations into this. Despite the way Assyrians phrase this issue, it's not the average Kurd taking land. It's Kurds with power that have the connections to do so. Kurds that are either related or have connections to either Barzani, Zebari, or other political clans using such influence to take land from, not just Assyrians, but less influential Kurdish clans, and even Armenians.

Here's my source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/Kurdistan.Report.pdf
Here's the condensed version of the source -> http://www.uscirf.gov/sites/default/files/KurdistanReport_short_FINAL_lowres.pdf

For the condensed version, I got my info from page 5 called "Control of Disputed Territories and Allegations of Kurdification"
on page 8 condensed version -> "Appropriation of Christian Land"

"Christian citizens of the KRI have issued complaints and
held protests against Kurdish residents for attacking and
seizing their land and villages in the provinces of Dohuk
and Erbil. Some Assyrian Christians accuse Kurdish gov-
ernment and party officials of taking lands for personal
use or financial gain. These Christians believe they
are specifically targeted as part of a policy to Kurdify
historically Christian areas. Other Christian leaders do
not believe a policy exists, but do concede that individual
Kurds and Kurdish businesses have been known to build
on or take Christian land.

Effectively, two types of land appropriation exist.
Significant portions of the claims are long-standing land
ownership issues. Through the late 20th century, Assyri-
ans were caught up in various regional uprisings and sup-
pressions. As a result of these events, large portions of the
population fled their homes and land, for which they con-
tinued to hold the deeds. Over time, Kurds moved in to the
fallow land. Now Christians are returning with their deeds
and attempting to reclaim lands or be compensated
.
In addition to these long-standing claims are
alleged incidents where powerful local officials or
businesses seize land on which to build new properties.
Assyrian leaders alluded to various cases where Kurd-
ish officials, or individuals or developers with links
to officials, have built on land owned by Christians
.
Seizures in the Nahla Valley have received particular
attention; here, Christians allege 42 encroachments in
the villages in recent years."



I will read the material you posted , but one thing I do not understand why is it only Assyrian complaining about their land being taken from them  ? . Frankly I am very skeptical and i see such complain politically and socially motivated . There is independent judicial system that deals with this kind of dispute and it is just to a certain extend just like anywhere in the world .


I can address some of the issues regarding land disputes with certainty . because my family lost all of our lands too and our deeds are meaningless now . During Saddam era there was a law called (قانون ألاصلاح الزراعي) I'm not sure what the English version will be . The law states that if a farmer leave the farm land and move to the city he will lose the deed to the land .The land then is divided and given to other farmers for use .  I know from my personal experience because our land was given to other farmers within a year from moving from our village and we still can not get it back because it has been divided and subdivided within too many people that you do not know who to take to court.


I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds , but that is the case everywhere in the world and Kurdistan is no exception . Justice always depend on how deep you pocket . Even here in Canada there is justice for the poor and justice for the rich and you know that very well .


Kurdify historically Christian areas ? I honestly do not understand this term and no Assyrian i talked to was able to explains how the kurdification of Assyrian is done . Assyrian areas are part of Kurdistan and sheltering it to prevent non Assyrian from moving to the area will never work . People including the Assyrian wants to make money and if a Kurd offer good money for a land owned by an Assyrian and the guy sold it why would the rest of Assyrian have a problem with that ? It is just business  . Many Assyrian buy properties or land from kurds too and you do not hear a beep from kurds .


I understand Assyrian history and I sympathize , but feeling you are being victimized at every corner  is not a good way to live or go forward .
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 12:25:28 AM by nejepnerast »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2017, 02:51:54 PM »

I will read the material you posted , but one thing I do not understand why is it only Assyrian complaining about their land being taken from them  ? . Frankly I am very skeptical and i see such complain politically and socially motivated . There is independent judicial system that deals with this kind of dispute and it is just to a certain extend just like anywhere in the world .


I can address some of the issues regarding land disputes with certainty . because my family lost all of our lands too and our deeds are meaningless now . During Saddam era there was a law called (قانون ألاصلاح الزراعي) I'm not sure what the English version will be . The law states that if a farmer leave the farm land and move to the city he will lose the deed to the land .The land then is divided and given to other farmers for use .  I know from my personal experience because our land was given to other farmers within a year from moving from our village and we still can not get it back because it has been divided and subdivided within too many people that you do not know who to take to court.


I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds , but that is the case everywhere in the world and Kurdistan is no exception . Justice always depend on how deep you pocket . Even here in Canada there is justice for the poor and justice for the rich and you know that very well .


Kurdify historically Christian areas ? I honestly do not understand this term and no Assyrian i talked to was able to explains how the kurdification of Assyrian is done . Assyrian areas are part of Kurdistan and sheltering it to prevent non Assyrian from moving to the area will never work . People including the Assyrian wants to make money and if a Kurd offer good money for a land owned by an Assyrian and the guy sold it why would the rest of Assyrian have a problem with that ? It is just business  . Many Assyrian buy properties or land from kurds too and you do not hear a beep from kurds .


I understand Assyrian history and I sympathize , but feeling you are being victimized at every corner  is not a good way to live or go forward .

it's not just Assyrians, Armenians and Yezidis have been saying this as well. It's also in the report. I posted only Assyrian stuff because that's the point of this thread?

Also, "I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds" - This is the kind of behavior that'll contribute to making Kurdistan a failed state. The last thing the Middle East and Assyrians need is another failed state. The fact that you're downplaying it as a trivial/minor issue is disturbing and shows you don't understand how behavior can affect the society as a whole. Now imagine all Assyrians left the KRG, what if the higher up Kurds did this to your family or relative?

If people in power believe they can do whatever they want with absolutely no consequences of such actions, then they'll do whatever with no regret at all, absolute power corrupts absolutely... It's this kind of behavior from leaders that leads to failed Muslim states of both past and present.

Personally, I'm still for a Kurds getting their own state regardless whether it's a failed one or not.

Secondly, you're talking about FARMLAND being automatically, by-law appropriated. What about non-farm land? Are we assuming all Assyrians that left from instability were living on farm land? Not all land in North is farm-able.

Also, it's clear that many Assyrians and even Kurds to an extent were leaving the North because of instability, it's extremely stupid that people can take their property considering that if they have the capability to leave, they certainly have the capability to come back when the area has become more stable.

Kurdification works similar to Arabization but, instead of Arabs, it's Kurds. Something likely learned from Saddam.

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2017, 01:20:38 AM »
it's not just Assyrians, Armenians and Yezidis have been saying this as well. It's also in the report. I posted only Assyrian stuff because that's the point of this thread?

You keep saying that without providing a single evidence that kurds are taking over Assyrian land and homes . Look you do not expect me just to take your word at face value do you ? I mean seriously just because you think it does not make it a fact and now you are throwing the Yezidis and Armenians to the mix ? you think that validate your original point or you are just doing it to adds emotional value ?


Also, "I certainly do not doubt that those with power use the power to make gains from Kurds and non kurds" - This is the kind of behavior that'll contribute to making Kurdistan a failed state. The last thing the Middle East and Assyrians need is another failed state. The fact that you're downplaying it as a trivial/minor issue is disturbing and shows you don't understand how behavior can affect the society as a whole. Now imagine all Assyrians left the KRG, what if the higher up Kurds did this to your family or relative?

If people in power believe they can do whatever they want with absolutely no consequences of such actions, then they'll do whatever with no regret at all, absolute power corrupts absolutely... It's this kind of behavior from leaders that leads to failed Muslim states of both past and present.

Personally, I'm still for a Kurds getting their own state regardless whether it's a failed one or not.

My dear Mr.Zurnaci you are an idealist and if you think the exploitation of poor by the rich will stop then I will strongly advice you to move to another planet . It is happening everywhere in the world including the west in the ugliest  form . I'm not trivializing the matter , but we should not exaggerate too .
You as an assyrian and Me as a Kurd we are just pawns in the game and at the end of the day I promise you we will get nothing . The rich Assyrian and those in the leadership will get richer and continue to fill the head of youth with non sense to empower themselves and no one else . On the surface they claim to care about assyrian , but behiend the close doors they are in bed with rich kurds and rich arabs . The same apply for kurds too  and that is why I despise leaders who claim to be nationalists .

The question I ask myself as a kurd is would I be better in Iraq or In Kurdistan ? and the answer is clear , because there is hope for change in Kurdistan  . Iraq is peddling backward and it is a dangerous place to live in  . So yes Kurdistan is not perfect with lots of problems , but it is heaven in compare to Iraq for those who are not holding another citizenship .

Secondly, you're talking about FARMLAND being automatically, by-law appropriated. What about non-farm land? Are we assuming all Assyrians that left from instability were living on farm land? Not all land in North is farm-able.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you talk about non farm land . Did a Kurd came to an Assyrian village and took over their house :) after they left ? . I'm sorry , but this sounds funny and it could not be further from truth and such thing does not exist in Kurdistan .
During Saddam era he confiscated Kurdish homes and expelled Kurds from Kirkuk and we still can not get our homes back . What are we suppose to do ? go and kill arabs and force them out of our homes ? You see Iraq is a mess and it is a mess for everyone not just assyrian , but the trend seems to be that Kurds are living like kings . There are problems in Kurdistan left by previous regime and the new regime in Baghdad refused to even deal with it and it will take another 100 years to sort things out . 

Also, it's clear that many Assyrians and even Kurds to an extent were leaving the North because of instability, it's extremely stupid that people can take their property considering that if they have the capability to leave, they certainly have the capability to come back when the area has become more stable.

People did not take their properties . Iraq was a socialist country and farm land was considered government property and you own it as long as you farm it  . The law did not apply to home ownership .

Kurdification works similar to Arabization but, instead of Arabs, it's Kurds. Something likely learned from Saddam.

No it does not and it is not even remotely apply to Assyrian case and i will explain why .

1-how many Assyrian have been deported from Kurdistan and thrown into a desert and their homes and land confiscated by kurds ? Zero
2-How many assyrian are forced to register as kurd and not Assyrian ? Zero
3-Did anyone ever knock on your door to tell you kurd and not Assyrian and if you ever speak Assyrian again they will cut your tongue ? no right ?
4 . How many Assyrian village were razed to the ground to built housing projects for kurds ? zero .
5-How many Assyrian schools are closed by Kurds ? zero

Do not compare Arabisation to so called Kurdification that does not exist . It is easy to throw big words here and there to make some political gains , but it is far away from the truth . Assyrian are stigmatized people and they do not seem to be able to go forward as long as kurds are around . It is time to bury the hatchets and move on with life , because kurds are not going anywhere .

I would still love if you can explain how kurds are kurdifiying assyrian . Still waiting for an answer on that one .



Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 04:48:49 AM »
You keep saying that without providing a single evidence that kurds are taking over Assyrian land and homes . Look you do not expect me just to take your word at face value do you ? I mean seriously just because you think it does not make it a fact and now you are throwing the Yezidis and Armenians to the mix ? you think that validate your original point or you are just doing it to adds emotional value ?


The only evidence is anecdotal. I've read and heard stories of Assyrians, Iraqi Armenians, and other Kurds mentioning how either their land or property was taken from them...

Don't believe them if you don't want but if this wasn't true, this wouldn't be a huge issue that's considered a major rift between Kurds and Assyrians now would it?

My dear Mr.Zurnaci you are an idealist and if you think the exploitation of poor by the rich will stop then I will strongly advice you to move to another planet . It is happening everywhere in the world including the west in the ugliest  form . I'm not trivializing the matter , but we should not exaggerate too .
You as an assyrian and Me as a Kurd we are just pawns in the game and at the end of the day I promise you we will get nothing . The rich Assyrian and those in the leadership will get richer and continue to fill the head of youth with non sense to empower themselves and no one else . On the surface they claim to care about assyrian , but behiend the close doors they are in bed with rich kurds and rich arabs . The same apply for kurds too  and that is why I despise leaders who claim to be nationalists.

Whatever you learned in Canada!

The question I ask myself as a kurd is would I be better in Iraq or In Kurdistan ? and the answer is clear , because there is hope for change in Kurdistan  . Iraq is peddling backward and it is a dangerous place to live in  . So yes Kurdistan is not perfect with lots of problems , but it is heaven in compare to Iraq for those who are not holding another citizenship .


Missing the point but whatever.

I'm not sure what you are referring too when you talk about non farm land . Did a Kurd came to an Assyrian village and took over their house :) after they left ? . I'm sorry , but this sounds funny and it could not be further from truth and such thing does not exist in Kurdistan .
During Saddam era he confiscated Kurdish homes and expelled Kurds from Kirkuk and we still can not get our homes back . What are we suppose to do ? go and kill arabs and force them out of our homes ? You see Iraq is a mess and it is a mess for everyone not just assyrian , but the trend seems to be that Kurds are living like kings . There are problems in Kurdistan left by previous regime and the new regime in Baghdad refused to even deal with it and it will take another 100 years to sort things out .


You just love using the false equivalence and putting words in people's mouths don't you? The article I linked clearly says Kurds are BUILDING ON LAND THAT'S OWNED BY ASSYRIANS WITHOUT PERMISSION. Maybe if you actually READ IT, you wouldn't look ignorant right now. I never said Kurds were taking over houses...
You argue like a Canadian liberal and most of them are dumb or ignorant on purpose.

No it does not and it is not even remotely apply to Assyrian case and i will explain why .

1-how many Assyrian have been deported from Kurdistan and thrown into a desert and their homes and land confiscated by kurds ? Zero
2-How many assyrian are forced to register as kurd and not Assyrian ? Zero
3-Did anyone ever knock on your door to tell you kurd and not Assyrian and if you ever speak Assyrian again they will cut your tongue ? no right ?
4 . How many Assyrian village were razed to the ground to built housing projects for kurds ? zero .
5-How many Assyrian schools are closed by Kurds ? zero

Do not compare Arabisation to so called Kurdification that does not exist . It is easy to throw big words here and there to make some political gains , but it is far away from the truth . Assyrian are stigmatized people and they do not seem to be able to go forward as long as kurds are around . It is time to bury the hatchets and move on with life , because kurds are not going anywhere .

I would still love if you can explain how kurds are kurdifiying assyrian . Still waiting for an answer on that one .


Very very dumb statement you wrote. Not only a false equivalence but Kurdification is the process of changing an areas demographics from non-Kurdish to Kurdish.. There's different tactics to achieve the desired effect. What you're doing here is comparing what Saddam did to what Kurds are doing and you're somehow (idiotically) equating them.


#1 How about Barzani and Zebari gangs using Peshmerga to threaten Assyrian villages?
#2 is that why Barzani and other Kurds insult me and other Assyrians by saying that we're "nothing but christian kurds?" when genetics and language clearly demonstrate falsity?
#3 Yes, the Peshmerga has been used in doing that. Peshmerga is a party militia, not a military that's controlled solely by government.
#4 is actually false, I even have video proof that you'll probably just brush off but here you go.
! No longer available

#5 schools being closed isn't part of the definition of arabization or kurdification.

Your Canadian Liberal argument tactics will not work here because I'm not just an Assyrian, I'm also an American conservative living in a liberal city. I argue and fight with liberals similar to you who use liberal arguments and debate tactics just like what you've done.

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 11:26:34 AM »
The only evidence is anecdotal. I've read and heard stories of Assyrians, Iraqi Armenians, and other Kurds mentioning how either their land or property was taken from them...

Don't believe them if you don't want but if this wasn't true, this wouldn't be a huge issue that's considered a major rift between Kurds and Assyrians now would it?
Whatever you learned in Canada!

You said it not me , the evidence is anecdotal .

anecdotal: (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.



You just love using the false equivalence and putting words in people's mouths don't you? The article I linked clearly says Kurds are BUILDING ON LAND THAT'S OWNED BY ASSYRIANS WITHOUT PERMISSION. Maybe if you actually READ IT, you wouldn't look ignorant right now. I never said Kurds were taking over houses...
You argue like a Canadian liberal and most of them are dumb or ignorant on purpose.

My dear Mrzurnaci ,  The lands are either farmland , public land or residential land and in all cases you could not provide a single evidence that what you claim is happening . I do not know what to tell you here . As you said yourself the long long article about religious freedom in Kurdistan was written by Assyrian for Assyrian and frankly it does not holds no factual evidence to anything .


Very very dumb statement you wrote. Not only a false equivalence but Kurdification is the process of changing an areas demographics from non-Kurdish to Kurdish.. There's different tactics to achieve the desired effect. What you're doing here is comparing what Saddam did to what Kurds are doing and you're somehow (idiotically) equating them.

I know what the definition mean and the above does not tell me anything . It is just another anecdotal statement .


#1 How about Barzani and Zebari gangs using Peshmerga to threaten Assyrian villages?
an·ec·do·tal statement . Show me .

#2 is that why Barzani and other Kurds insult me and other Assyrians by saying that we're "nothing but christian kurds?" when genetics and language clearly demonstrate falsity?

That is kurdification lol ? Your feeling is hurt now , Ok Call them gypsies and you are even .
 
#3 Yes, the Peshmerga has been used in doing that. Peshmerga is a party militia, not a military that's controlled solely by government.

Is that kurdiication too ? So you are not happy with military structure in Kurdistan . me too .

#4 is actually false, I even have video proof that you'll probably just brush off but here you go.


Ok , so the land that belong to ministry of tourism was sold to a private investor and some land that belong to Rabi ismail was sold to haji masud . Where is the problem ? I'm not brushing it off , but i do not see where the problem is .

#5 schools being closed isn't part of the definition of arabization or kurdification.

Kurdish schools being closed and all the curriculum changed from kurdish to arabic is not part of arabisation ?


Your Canadian Liberal argument tactics will not work here because I'm not just an Assyrian, I'm also an American conservative living in a liberal city. I argue and fight with liberals similar to you who use liberal arguments and debate tactics just like what you've done.
I honestly do not know the difference between liberal and conservitive lol . I simply state the facts .

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2017, 04:03:29 PM »
Kurdish schools being closed and all the curriculum changed from kurdish to arabic is not part of arabisation ?

Arabization...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arabize#English

To make Arab; to give Arab traits to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization

"Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب‎‎ taʻrīb) describes either the conquest of a non-Arab area and growing Arab influence on non-Arab populations, causing their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and/or their incorporation of Arab culture and Arab identity."

closing down Assyrian and Kurdish schools, deporting and forcefully migrating, and all the other fun dictator stuff is not Arabization, it's an implementation of it. The actions to achieve a desired effect.

cmon man. Did I really have to spell this all out?

Anyways, we're getting off topic so I'm going to restate that I'm in favor for Kurdish sovereignty but I'm still neutral. I don't get involved in what's not my business.

Offline nejepnerast

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2017, 07:55:21 PM »
Arabization...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Arabize#English

To make Arab; to give Arab traits to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization

"Arabization or Arabisation (Arabic: تعريب‎‎ taʻrīb) describes either the conquest of a non-Arab area and growing Arab influence on non-Arab populations, causing their gradual adoption of the Arabic language and/or their incorporation of Arab culture and Arab identity."

closing down Assyrian and Kurdish schools, deporting and forcefully migrating, and all the other fun dictator stuff is not Arabization, it's an implementation of it. The actions to achieve a desired effect.

cmon man. Did I really have to spell this all out?

lol , you raise multiple issues and failed to prove a single point and now you throw wiki definition and run ?is that how you defend the Assyrian cause ? I was hoping you would do a better job , but i was wrong. You are like the rest of Assyrian who are just through dirt at kurds and hoping something would stick .



Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2017, 12:37:18 AM »
lol , you raise multiple issues and failed to prove a single point and now you throw wiki definition and run ?is that how you defend the Assyrian cause ? I was hoping you would do a better job , but i was wrong. You are like the rest of Assyrian who are just through dirt at kurds and hoping something would stick .




I have better things to do than to needlessly argue with a Canadian Kurd. It's not as if convincing you would do anything for the Assyrian cause anyway

Offline Bronit Omta

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Re: Are you as an Assyrian for or against Kurdish referendum in Iraq .
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 01:23:08 AM »
Pretty blunt poll.

I support it in regions like Slemani, Erbil, Kirkuk but not in Nineveh Plain or Nohadra (Dohuk).