Author Topic: Maloula ASSYRIANS?  (Read 1432 times)

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Offline Nemrud

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Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« on: February 27, 2018, 12:05:57 PM »
This is what they called Their language: Loghtha Siryanoytha[1] lushono suryoyo

I am Aramean and my language is Aramaic=   Ana suray w lišoni aromay.
We are Arameans and our language is Aramaic=   Anaḥ suroy w lišonah aromay.

I took this from Wikipedia, and l watched a Youtube video and they call themselves suroy.

Now l am Wondering IF suroyo mean assyrian then why do they callthemselves suroy which resembles suroyo? Are they Calling themselves assyrian?

If they are The real Arameans and Calling themselves suroy then we might be Arameans. And The Arameans suryoye might had right all The time.

Or suroy might be assyrian and The reason why they still call themselves that is because they are really assyrian Arameans?

I dont know, but do you?

What about maronites? They are syriacs, why are they not assyrians, idto suryeyto maroniyto, and they number 3 millions, and maron was syriac Who established The Church maronite Church.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 12:08:29 PM by Nemrud »



Offline Cascade

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 02:35:37 AM »
I used to think Maronites were closely related Levantine people who were descendants of Phoenicians. I wouldn't call them Arab. They're pure like us.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 04:29:18 AM »
Maronites are not Assyrians. Every Maronite I've met looks like a typical Lebanese person. Many of them don't even know what Assyrians are, and many of the ones I've met don't even know that Syriac is their liturgical language. Saying they are part of a Syriac Church is not a very strong argument as there are Indians in Kerala who are part of our churches. Does that make them Assyrian? Absolutely not.

Also, regarding the Aramean thing, it is a very complex subject. At one point in time "Syria" referred to Assyria, but eventually due to confusion it started referring to the area which was Aram, the Western part of the Assyrian empire. This is why we have "Syriac" to differentiate from "Syrian", but originally the Syriac Orthodox Church was called the Syrian Orthodox Church. Syria actually refers to either Assyria or Aram depending on the time period and the context. This confusion is due to a combination of things, including the Greeks and Romans, as well as our dropping of the initial "a" sound in "Ashuraya". I don't know too much about this at the moment to actually explain this properly, maybe someone else who is more knowledgable in this area can contribute, but this is essentially what the Aramean identity stems from. So called "Arameans" believe that "Suryoyo" refers to "Oromoyo", or "Aramean", instead of "Assyrian", even though "Suryoyo" comes from "Ashuraya", because as I said, "Syria" and "Assyria" no longer really refer to the same thing.
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 04:29:18 AM »

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 08:52:00 AM »
Maronites are not Assyrians. Every Maronite I've met looks like a typical Lebanese person. Many of them don't even know what Assyrians are, and many of the ones I've met don't even know that Syriac is their liturgical language. Saying they are part of a Syriac Church is not a very strong argument as there are Indians in Kerala who are part of our churches. Does that make them Assyrian? Absolutely not.

Also, regarding the Aramean thing, it is a very complex subject. At one point in time "Syria" referred to Assyria, but eventually due to confusion it started referring to the area which was Aram, the Western part of the Assyrian empire. This is why we have "Syriac" to differentiate from "Syrian", but originally the Syriac Orthodox Church was called the Syrian Orthodox Church. Syria actually refers to either Assyria or Aram depending on the time period and the context. This confusion is due to a combination of things, including the Greeks and Romans, as well as our dropping of the initial "a" sound in "Ashuraya". I don't know too much about this at the moment to actually explain this properly, maybe someone else who is more knowledgable in this area can contribute, but this is essentially what the Aramean identity stems from. So called "Arameans" believe that "Suryoyo" refers to "Oromoyo", or "Aramean", instead of "Assyrian", even though "Suryoyo" comes from "Ashuraya", because as I said, "Syria" and "Assyria" no longer really refer to the same thing.

So u think maloula Arameans adopted The name suroy? But why would they do that.... Maybe then we adopted The name suroyo, really If u think about it, it can be true.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 08:52:58 AM by Nemrud »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 09:40:43 PM »
Ma'loula are native Arameans, they're not Assyrians. 'suroy' is Western Aramaic but 'suroyo' is Western Syriac. 'Suroyo' means "Syrian". "Syrian" is a very old term but they're probably referring to the country of Syria. Don't forget that "Syria" was also a region named by the Greeks around the land of Darmsuq (Damascus).

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2018, 08:03:18 AM »
Ma'loula are native Arameans, they're not Assyrians. 'suroy' is Western Aramaic but 'suroyo' is Western Syriac. 'Suroyo' means "Syrian". "Syrian" is a very old term but they're probably referring to the country of Syria. Don't forget that "Syria" was also a region named by the Greeks around the land of Darmsuq (Damascus).

Thats The thing, maloula adopted The name suroy, according to suryoye we adopted The name suroyo, which means Oromoyo, of course i dont believe it but There May be a possibility....

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 09:57:42 AM »
Thats The thing, maloula adopted The name suroy, according to suryoye we adopted The name suroyo, which means Oromoyo, of course i dont believe it but There May be a possibility....

Syria was used to mean the Levant, Arameans are a Levantine people while Assyrians are a Mesopotamian people.

This is Syria during Ottoman times

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2018, 10:01:32 AM »
What are you saying?

Offline Cascade

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2018, 11:56:41 PM »
Ma'loula are native Arameans, they're not Assyrians. 'suroy' is Western Aramaic but 'suroyo' is Western Syriac. 'Suroyo' means "Syrian". "Syrian" is a very old term but they're probably referring to the country of Syria. Don't forget that "Syria" was also a region named by the Greeks around the land of Darmsuq (Damascus).
Who are the Phoenicians though?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 02:54:40 AM »
Who are the Phoenicians though?

The Phoenicians are the Lebanese.
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 09:38:55 AM »
The Phoenicians are the Lebanese.

The maronites in Israel is called Arameans and they speak Western Aramaic....

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2018, 02:11:39 PM »
Actually If suryoyo means Aramean like suroy mean Aramean then our Churchfathers would have been right after all. Remember ephrem the syrian and others called our people Arameans but Michael the Great called us both Arameans and assyrians, l dont know anyone that lived in the Middle age Calling us assyrians except Michael the Great, the others always called us Arameans. The Assyrians says they didnt know being religious, but IF its true that we are Arameans then that would make sence why maloula say suroy and are Arameans, suryoyo means Oromoyo.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:12:28 PM by Nemrud »

Offline Cascade

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2018, 05:52:53 AM »
The Phoenicians are the Lebanese.
I know. But would Maronites be Phoencian-descent as well?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2018, 06:37:23 AM »
I know. But would Maronites be Phoencian-descent as well?

I don't see why not. As far as I know Maronites are ethnically the same as other Lebanese Christians
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2018, 06:40:47 AM »
Actually If suryoyo means Aramean like suroy mean Aramean then our Churchfathers would have been right after all. Remember ephrem the syrian and others called our people Arameans but Michael the Great called us both Arameans and assyrians, l dont know anyone that lived in the Middle age Calling us assyrians except Michael the Great, the others always called us Arameans. The Assyrians says they didnt know being religious, but IF its true that we are Arameans then that would make sence why maloula say suroy and are Arameans, suryoyo means Oromoyo.

Even Mor Aphrem called us Assyrians. We really, really, really are Assyrians. Everything points to us being Assyrian.
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2018, 07:04:40 AM »
Even Mor Aphrem called us Assyrians. We really, really, really are Assyrians. Everything points to us being Assyrian.

Really? Source please because l have seen him say we are Arameans Only.....

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2018, 07:44:34 AM »
Really? Source please because l have seen him say we are Arameans Only.....

Sure.

"Even giants feared the great renown of Assyria.
We conquered many folks, and this Hebrew scared us
Our roaring scared Kings, and we feared his voice?
We smashed many countries, and he defeated us
Nineveh the mother of giants feared the afraid
The lioness in her dean scared by the afraid Hebrew
Ashur, who roared on the universe, today was roared by Jonah
This is how the descendants of the mighty Nimrud weakened"
~ St. Ephrem the Syrian (Assyrian), The "Khudra" book, P. 352
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:13:51 AM by SonOfAssyria »
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2018, 08:00:31 AM »
Sure.

"Even giants feared the great renown of Assyria.
We conquered many folks, and this Hebrew scared us
Our roaring scared Kings, and we feared his voice?
We smashed many countries, and he defeated us
Nineveh the mother of giants feared the afraid
The lioness in her dean scared by the afraid Hebrew
Ashur, who roared on the universe, today was roared by Jonah
This is how the descendants of the mighty Nimrud weakened"
~ St. Ephrem the Syrian (Assyrian), The "Khudraio" book, P. 352

Show me link please, i want to know Where u get this from

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2018, 08:23:24 AM »
Show me link please, i want to know Where u get this from

Dude I referenced the source
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2018, 08:59:03 AM »
Sure.

"Even giants feared the great renown of Assyria.
We conquered many folks, and this Hebrew scared us
Our roaring scared Kings, and we feared his voice?
We smashed many countries, and he defeated us
Nineveh the mother of giants feared the afraid
The lioness in her dean scared by the afraid Hebrew
Ashur, who roared on the universe, today was roared by Jonah
This is how the descendants of the mighty Nimrud weakened"
~ St. Ephrem the Syrian (Assyrian), The "Khudra" book, P. 352

Hmmm, interesting so this means we always knew we were assyrians, but why were they also Calling us Arameans?  ecpesially him?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:59:45 AM by Nemrud »

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2018, 10:33:12 PM »
Hmmm, interesting so this means we always knew we were assyrians, but why were they also Calling us Arameans?  ecpesially him?

Where did St. Ephrem even call us Arameans?
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2018, 12:32:45 AM »
Where did St. Ephrem even call us Arameans?


http://www.aramnahrin.org/English/Testimonies-Aramean-scholars.htm

According to them he did, its even written on Wikipedia.....

Offline SonOfAssyria

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2018, 06:04:25 AM »
http://www.aramnahrin.org/English/Testimonies-Aramean-scholars.htm

According to them he did, its even written on Wikipedia.....


Exactly, according to them. They considered him a crown of glory for all the Arameans. As far as I know he never even called himself Aramean. Heck, I'm fairly certain that most of these quotes from all these church leaders about us being Aramean are taken out of context.
"Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood." ~ Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2018, 07:57:05 AM »
Exactly, according to them. They considered him a crown of glory for all the Arameans. As far as I know he never even called himself Aramean. Heck, I'm fairly certain that most of these quotes from all these church leaders about us being Aramean are taken out of context.

I dont know and I dont care, the important is that he called us Assyrians, and we had then also an assyrian identity in our head.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2018, 03:00:36 AM »
Western Neo-Aramaic
Aromay, Loghtha Aramoytha, Malouli Syriac, Lishona Aromay, Siryon, Loghtha Siryanoytha[1]
ܐܪܘܡܝ - ארומי Aromay
آرامي‬ Ārāmī

They call their language syriac and aramaic, thats why they call themselves suroy and Aromay.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2018, 09:34:54 AM »
Suroy doesnt mean aramean, it means syriac, its an identity based on their language according to my research. Actually their language are similiar to ours because they say for example Hello / Peace Šloma=shlomo, and Water Mōya=maye. Actually suroy could mean aramean because they call their language Lishona Aromay=Loghtha Siryanoytha, so they clearly say suroy is synonym to aramean, but why? Sure our ancients called us assyrians and arameans but if suroy is synonym to aramean then they either are assyrians or arameans and so are we, because suroy=suroyo/suraya.

As l have been seen noone were able to explain this mystery, l hope now you can.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2018, 09:39:27 AM »
now when l think about it maybe for them suroy means aramean because syria refered to aram a long time ago and for us suroyo means assyrian, maybe just maybe. Maybe they adopted the name suroy... i dont know.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 09:41:59 AM by Nemrud »

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2018, 10:00:08 AM »
The terms Syrian or Syriac relate not to their ethnicity but to their historical, religious, and liturgical connection to Syriac Christianity. This is the st thomas christians who probably call their language similiar to us, now maybe the maloula think the same, suroy is not their etnicity.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2018, 02:35:06 PM »
but they're not "Syriac", they don't speak Syriac. They are what's left of the Arameans.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2018, 03:21:32 PM »
Western Neo-Aramaic
Aromay, Loghtha Aramoytha, Malouli Syriac, Lishona Aromay, Siryon, Loghtha Siryanoytha[1]
ܐܪܘܡܝ - ארומי Aromay
آرامي‬ Ārāmī

then why do they call  themselves suroy, explain that please....

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2018, 04:26:41 PM »
Western Neo-Aramaic
Aromay, Loghtha Aramoytha, Malouli Syriac, Lishona Aromay, Siryon, Loghtha Siryanoytha[1]
ܐܪܘܡܝ - ארומי Aromay
آرامي‬ Ārāmī

then why do they call  themselves suroy, explain that please....
Suroy is Syrian, What sense of Syrian? I don't know, it could mean that they're native people of Syria which Arameans are.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2018, 11:39:12 AM »
Suroy is Syrian, What sense of Syrian? I don't know, it could mean that they're native people of Syria which Arameans are.

How do you know its not syriac, in Wikipedia its syriac, maronites speak syriac in Church...  Suroy must be syriac, l cant believe u dont take this serious.... And yes, when l look at their words l understand them a bit so they must be syriac. They are not refering to their country or else they wouldnt say Loghtha Siryanoytha, lushono suryoyo
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 11:45:33 AM by Nemrud »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2018, 12:54:20 PM »
How do you know its not syriac, in Wikipedia its syriac, maronites speak syriac in Church...  Suroy must be syriac, l cant believe u dont take this serious.... And yes, when l look at their words l understand them a bit so they must be syriac. They are not refering to their country or else they wouldnt say Loghtha Siryanoytha, lushono suryoyo

Maronaya/Moronoyo aren't Assyrian/Syriac though. Suroy can't be Syriac though, Ma'loula people use Western Aramaic which is different from Syriac. Western Aramaic and Syriac have been separated for over 1000 years.

Offline Nemrud

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2018, 04:20:48 PM »
Maronaya/Moronoyo aren't Assyrian/Syriac though. Suroy can't be Syriac though, Ma'loula people use Western Aramaic which is different from Syriac. Western Aramaic and Syriac have been separated for over 1000 years.

But why do l then understand their words????

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Maloula ASSYRIANS?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2018, 08:08:52 PM »
But why do l then understand their words????
Because their words are in all Aramaic dialects.
Words are not what separates the dialects, grammar and pronounciation is.

Here's an example alongside Turoyo, Classical Syriac, and Hebrew:

Western Neo-Aramaic: Ōboḥ ti bi

 

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