Author Topic: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?  (Read 5649 times)

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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2016, 09:33:13 PM »
Lol is that also an insult? Pull your lips?
I said "pull my finger" in Eastern Assyrian lol

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2016, 10:46:06 PM »
I said "pull my finger" in Eastern Assyrian lol
Lol...you mean "supatee"

"Sipatee" is my lips.
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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 06:28:37 AM »
Lol...you mean "supatee"

"Sipatee" is my lips.

my parents pronounce it as "sipateh"

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 06:28:37 AM »

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 08:06:49 AM »
my parents pronounce it as "sipateh"
Yes, but that "I" in "sipateh" (finger) is a schwa. It's the same sound heard in the vowel of "supply".

"Sepateh" (lips) has a softer "I" sound, that can sound like an "eh".
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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2016, 09:26:52 AM »
Yes, but that "I" in "sipateh" (finger) is a schwa. It's the same sound heard in the vowel of "supply".

"Sepateh" (lips) has a softer "I" sound, that can sound like an "eh".

doesn't matter since eastern dialect is wrong on both

finger - ܨܒܥܐ pronounced "sˁɛvʕɑ"
lips - ܣܦܬܐ pronounced "sɛf(ə)θɑ(ʔ)"

You just demonstrated clearly why there needs to be a single, standardized dialect...

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2016, 06:15:53 PM »
doesn't matter since eastern dialect is wrong on both

finger - ܨܒܥܐ pronounced "sˁɛvʕɑ"
lips - ܣܦܬܐ pronounced "sɛf(ə)θɑ(ʔ)"

You just demonstrated clearly why there needs to be a single, standardized dialect...
My dad's a Saranaya and my mum's a Nochieta. They both pronounce it as 'sippa'

Oddly enough, Assyrians seem to be pronounce it fine and may be writing it wrong. The word sippa (finger) is likely derived from the akkadian word sippu (threshold, extremity, end point). It is one of the less common words that has not only likely come from Akkadian but where only the suffixing article has changed.

The only mystery then becomes, why does it have a beet in it? my guess is that it was borrowed into Aramaic with a 'b' sound and spelt that way despite many Aramaic speaking Assyrians living further East retaining the Akkadian influenced 'P' sound. Then over time, the P became more dominant in speech among all Assyrians (for whatever reason) but the B retained its spelling to maintain the written tradition of the word that might have birthed in the West (such as in Edessa itself). -Just a little theory but I really don't know if has another origin or not.
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Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2016, 09:22:17 PM »
doesn't matter since eastern dialect is wrong on both

finger - ܨܒܥܐ pronounced "sˁɛvʕɑ"
lips - ܣܦܬܐ pronounced "sɛf(ə)θɑ(ʔ)"

You just demonstrated clearly why there needs to be a single, standardized dialect...
No, I didn't. The usage of a schwa doesn't degrade our language. The "I" in sipateh (finger) and sipateh (lips) has two different phonetics. Nuanced features like this actually make our language more unique.

That single standardized dialect(s) is "Iraqi Koine" and "Urmian". They're going very well. Praising classical Syriac and teaching it to some extent is one thing, but trying so hard to have it become our official language is an unrealistic vision.

Speaking of which, should we go back to Middle English? And how come there aren't any purists out there who be like "teach Middle English to our kids!"...?


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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2016, 09:27:37 PM »
No, I didn't. The usage of a schwa doesn't degrade our language. The "I" in sipateh (finger) and sipateh (lips) has two different phonetics. Nuanced features like this actually make our language more unique.

That single standardized dialect(s) is "Iraqi Koine" and "Urmian". They're going very well. Praising classical Syriac and teaching it to some extent is one thing, but trying so hard to have it become our official language is an unrealistic vision.

Speaking of which, should we go back to Middle English? And how come there aren't any purists out there who be like "teach Middle English to our kids!"...?




No english purists because the majority of English speakers can understand each other pretty well while you complain how you can't understand Turoyo...

Case is settled, Modernized form of Classical Syriac as new Standard dialect.

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2016, 09:52:29 PM »
No english purists because the majority of English speakers can understand each other pretty well while you complain how you can't understand Turoyo...

Case is settled, Modernized form of Classical Syriac as new Standard dialect.
Actually, we don't. There are so many strong English dialects that are partially incomprehensible. Americans usually put subtitles and even dub films that have strong regional accents (namely from the UK and Australia). The Scottish accent is very hard to understand for many English speakers - And it's not like they use different words. They just pronounce them differently. Turoyo, on the other hand, mostly has words that we DON'T even use. They have their own set of words. So how the hell should we Easterners be blamed for not finding Turoyo intelligible when they have their own vocabulary? A false equivalent there.

We are speaking a "modernized form" of classical Syriac. Listen to your parents and other Assyrians - That is modern Syriac you're hearing. It just happened to be evolved that way. It cannot be undone. Nonetheless, Turoyo isn't Assyrian Neo-Aramaic. So it's understandable to not find *another* language mutually intelligible, no matter how closely related it is to us. Turoyo is just a very closely related language to ANA (be it a, "sister language"). Perhaps like Turkmen and Turkish, if not more or less closer.

Why is it so hard to accept that Turoyo, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Jewish Aramaic, Western Neo-Aramaic, etc, are all Syriac languages rather than mere "dialects"? You and I both know that they aren't all too mutually intelligible. There is a fine line between a dialect and language.
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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2016, 01:16:37 PM »
Actually, we don't. There are so many strong English dialects that are partially incomprehensible. Americans usually put subtitles and even dub films that have strong regional accents (namely from the UK and Australia). The Scottish accent is very hard to understand for many English speakers - And it's not like they use different words. They just pronounce them differently. Turoyo, on the other hand, mostly has words that we DON'T even use. They have their own set of words. So how the hell should we Easterners be blamed for not finding Turoyo intelligible when they have their own vocabulary? A false equivalent there.

We are speaking a "modernized form" of classical Syriac. Listen to your parents and other Assyrians - That is modern Syriac you're hearing. It just happened to be evolved that way. It cannot be undone. Nonetheless, Turoyo isn't Assyrian Neo-Aramaic. So it's understandable to not find *another* language mutually intelligible, no matter how closely related it is to us. Turoyo is just a very closely related language to ANA (be it a, "sister language"). Perhaps like Turkmen and Turkish, if not more or less closer.

Why is it so hard to accept that Turoyo, Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Jewish Aramaic, Western Neo-Aramaic, etc, are all Syriac languages rather than mere "dialects"? You and I both know that they aren't all too mutually intelligible. There is a fine line between a dialect and language.

Because you 're not an expert of anything linguistic. I'm not an expert either but I do know the differences between a dialect and language, have access to Syriac materials both old and modern, and I have some knowledge on Semitic languages as whole compared to you...


Plus, you're confusing vocabulary experience for incomprehensible...

Just because an American doesn't know what a "wog" or "fag" is in AUS/UK English doesn't mean languages are automatically incomprehensible to each other...

When my Australian cousin Will came over to the USA, I understood him 100% perfectly other than his Australian-born vocabulary that I had to ask him about and even then, Wiktionary has entries on Australian and UK English vocabulary terms.

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2016, 09:16:38 PM »
Because you 're not an expert of anything linguistic. I'm not an expert either but I do know the differences between a dialect and language, have access to Syriac materials both old and modern, and I have some knowledge on Semitic languages as whole compared to you...


Plus, you're confusing vocabulary experience for incomprehensible...

Just because an American doesn't know what a "wog" or "fag" is in AUS/UK English doesn't mean languages are automatically incomprehensible to each other...

When my Australian cousin Will came over to the USA, I understood him 100% perfectly other than his Australian-born vocabulary that I had to ask him about and even then, Wiktionary has entries on Australian and UK English vocabulary terms.
"Wog" and "fag" are slang words. Everyone knows what a "fag" is. Only Aussies and Brits know of "wog" though. But that's a feeble comparison there. Slang shouldn't be used as an example.

FYI, Turoyo has *real*, non-slang, day to day words that we don't even use (tablitho = mees, tlitho= brata, qanyo = qalama, halakh = jwaja, etc...need I go on?), and yet you see it as a dialect?

Nobody's saying who's an expert on linguistics and who isn't, but we have common sense. To my ears, Turoyo sounds like a different, but closely related, language.

On a side note - If you love Syriac so much, just "preserve" it and leave its name for the classical one, no? I mean, you're the one who thinks that modern Aramaic has "butchered" Syriac. So why call its variants "Syriac", let alone "SYRIAC DIALECTS"? Isn't that a contradiction on your part?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 09:28:28 PM by Neon »
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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 10:00:47 PM »
"Wog" and "fag" are slang words. Everyone knows what a "fag" is. Only Aussies and Brits know of "wog" though. But that's a feeble comparison there. Slang shouldn't be used as an example.

FYI, Turoyo has *real*, non-slang, day to day words that we don't even use (tablitho = mees, tlitho= brata, qanyo = qalama, halakh = jwaja, etc...need I go on?), and yet you see it as a dialect?

Nobody's saying who's an expert on linguistics and who isn't, but we have common sense. To my ears, Turoyo sounds like a different, but closely related, language.

On a side note - If you love Syriac so much, just "preserve" it and leave its name for the classical one, no? I mean, you're the one who thinks that modern Aramaic has "butchered" Syriac. So why call its variants "Syriac", let alone "SYRIAC DIALECTS"? Isn't that a contradiction on your part?


You still just proved my answer correctly saying that the major issue here is vocabulary...

The difference between a language and a dialect is how different are the changes in grammar.

Is Turoyo's grammar so different that it should be considered separated from Eastern Syriac dialects all together?


" (tablitho = mees, tlitho= brata, qanyo = qalama, halakh = jwaja, etc."

You should know that I had a Swedish-Assyrian friend who says that Suryoyeh speak in Turoyo but they write in Classical Syriac...

They do this so that ol' Syriac can never become lost.

Second, Tablitho for mees? Classical syriac definition is Looha (like Arabic LuH).

Tablitho/Tavleetha is a Greek borrowing.

Qanyo is also in Eastern Syriac (qanya)
Halakh is as well
Tlitho is also in Eastern Syriac, it's pronounced ṭalīṯā the T is ṭeth

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 11:32:47 PM »
You still just proved my answer correctly saying that the major issue here is vocabulary...

The difference between a language and a dialect is how different are the changes in grammar.

Is Turoyo's grammar so different that it should be considered separated from Eastern Syriac dialects all together?


" (tablitho = mees, tlitho= brata, qanyo = qalama, halakh = jwaja, etc."

You should know that I had a Swedish-Assyrian friend who says that Suryoyeh speak in Turoyo but they write in Classical Syriac...

They do this so that ol' Syriac can never become lost.

Second, Tablitho for mees? Classical syriac definition is Looha (like Arabic LuH).

Tablitho/Tavleetha is a Greek borrowing.

Qanyo is also in Eastern Syriac (qanya)
Halakh is as well
Tlitho is also in Eastern Syriac, it's pronounced ṭalīṯā the T is ṭeth
Are they now? Every Assyrian I know doesn't use these words.

*We use "talita" for a female who's asleep. We use "niqwa" for her gender.
*Every easterner I know says "qalama", never "qanya".
*Again, nobody says "halakh" for walking. We say "jwaja" (borrowed word or not, doesn't matter).

Yes, the major problem is vocabulary. But that's the crucial aspect in here - If a language's vocab is over 50-60% inharmonious to ours, it just cannot be part of ours. There is always a red line here.

People using classical Syriac in literature is not a problem. I've told you before that I'm fine with Syriac being taught or showcased. All I'm saying that it will just never be an official, single language in the future. I just don't see this happening. Okay, maybe it can be a church language (in which it is), but not a "common language".

Tell me, is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic "Syriac" to you? If so, why would a skewed, bastardized "ghetto" language like ANA be Syriac, let alone its dialect? That's what I can't fathom here.
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Online mrzurnaci

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2016, 12:47:20 AM »
Are they now? Every Assyrian I know doesn't use these words.

Isn't that the beauty of having multiple words with the same or slightly same meaning? It adds more expressivity

*We use "talita" for a female who's asleep. We use "niqwa" for her gender.
*Every easterner I know says "qalama", never "qanya".
*Again, nobody says "halakh" for walking. We say "jwaja" (borrowed word or not, doesn't matter).

So what if I taught a new generation that Tdalita means young girl? Tdalitha doesn't mean "girl", it means "young girl"

Yes, the major problem is vocabulary. But that's the crucial aspect in here - If a language's vocab is over 50-60% inharmonious to ours, it just cannot be part of ours. There is always a red line here.

Then the problem would be with Assyrian Neo-Aramaic since many words are of foreign origins. My personal objective is to have speakers use native Syriac words. If I achieve that, then there's no "inharmonious"-ness vocabulary with Turoyo...

People using classical Syriac in literature is not a problem. I've told you before that I'm fine with Syriac being taught or showcased. All I'm saying that it will just never be an official, single language in the future. I just don't see this happening. Okay, maybe it can be a church language (in which it is), but not a "common language".

Tell me, is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic "Syriac" to you? If so, why would a skewed, bastardized "ghetto" language like ANA be Syriac, let alone its dialect? That's what I can't fathom here.

after reading what you said, I thought up this question: Did Jews have this same conversation but with Hebrew and all the Hebrew dialects?

there's...
Ashkenazi Hebrew
Sephardi Hebrew
Mizrahi Hebrew
Yemenite Hebrew

So basically, I'm going to end this conversation by saying that the future of Syriac, whether classical or modern, will lie in who ever is the most active in its development :)

Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2016, 05:00:56 AM »
Isn't that the beauty of having multiple words with the same or slightly same meaning? It adds more expressivity
Well, I'm not against that. But you know it will be difficult and time-consuming trying to implement a new word. It will take time before it finally "adjusts" into our tongue.

Quote
So what if I taught a new generation that Tdalita means young girl? Tdalitha doesn't mean "girl", it means "young girl"
Again, it's gonna take time to achieve this. Let's first teach them the common tongue or the common saying for every word, rather than the Syriac equivalent. Look, I get your passion, and I told you this before, but other Assyrians wouldn't know what the hell these Syriac words (i.e. "talidtha") mean. So you teach that person "talidtha" and he goes "hey talitha" to an Assyrian girl, how would you expect her to react? You know she would be like "huh?".  :giggle:

Quote
Then the problem would be with Assyrian Neo-Aramaic since many words are of foreign origins. My personal objective is to have speakers use native Syriac words. If I achieve that, then there's no "inharmonious"-ness vocabulary with Turoyo...
There you go. You acknowledge that we are not in harmony with Turoyo. Therefore, we cannot be the "same" language due to this unfortunate circumstance. You can tell that we diverged.

I actually don't mind Kurdish and Farsi loanwords. Arabic ones kinda get to me, due to their annoying pharyngeals, and the fact that they act as "fillers" for words that we don't know of (or forgot). For instance, I hate saying "aadi" for "normal" - There is no Assyrian word for it. If there is a Syriac word for "normal" then I'll totally use it, and adamantly teach it to others. But you're somehow more bothered when people say "neqwa" and "jwaja" - At least we have ACTUAL words for those...Lol

Quote
after reading what you said, I thought up this question: Did Jews have this same conversation but with Hebrew and all the Hebrew dialects?

there's...
Ashkenazi Hebrew
Sephardi Hebrew
Mizrahi Hebrew
Yemenite Hebrew
I really can't say here. How mutually intelligible are they with each other?
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Offline Shahin

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2016, 07:05:46 PM »
Quote
after reading what you said, I thought up this question: Did Jews have this same conversation but with Hebrew and all the Hebrew dialects?

there's...
Ashkenazi Hebrew
Sephardi Hebrew
Mizrahi Hebrew
Yemenite Hebrew

From what I've read, these are just different pronunciation systems (with more or less different words from arabic/persan/whatever) for Biblical Hebrew and not dialects.
Compare it to Classical Syriac (Same language (vocabulary, grammar, etc.) just West & East pronunciation/vocalization).

On the topic, per intelligibility order:
Turoyo  > Chaldean from Turkey (very close to Turoyo) > whatever eastern dialects mixed with persian/kurdish/arabic > Western neo Aramaic...

Above all dialects: Classical Syriac, would be fun to listen to people using Western vocalization and others answering using Eastern or vice versa.
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Offline Cascade

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2016, 11:46:33 AM »
From what I've read, these are just different pronunciation systems (with more or less different words from arabic/persan/whatever) for Biblical Hebrew and not dialects.
Compare it to Classical Syriac (Same language (vocabulary, grammar, etc.) just West & East pronunciation/vocalization).

On the topic, per intelligibility order:
Turoyo  > Chaldean from Turkey (very close to Turoyo) > whatever eastern dialects mixed with persian/kurdish/arabic > Western neo Aramaic...

Above all dialects: Classical Syriac, would be fun to listen to people using Western vocalization and others answering using Eastern or vice versa.
Chaldean may pronounce some words the same way Turoyo does (i.e. the pharyngeal H), but it's still basically Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Shahin

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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2016, 05:16:19 PM »
Chaldean may pronounce some words the same way Turoyo does (i.e. the pharyngeal H), but it's still basically Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.

Yup, but still more understandable to me than Assyrian neo-Aramaic, especially dialects spoken in Iran...
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Re: What are your favourite and least favourite Assyrian dialects?
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2016, 08:54:12 PM »
Yup, but still more understandable to me than Assyrian neo-Aramaic, especially dialects spoken in Iran...
Yeah that's true. If I spoke Turoyo I would also probably understand Chaldean much more than ANA. :)
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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