Author Topic: Syriac language  (Read 10587 times)

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Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2015, 08:12:55 PM »
our dialects should just die out, classic syriac should be revived and used as standard or not, our people don't know words such as confront,divine,argument etc etc etc , we can't even speak our own language without lending words from disgusting languages.

I once asked my swedish friend which language sounds best, I spoke little classic syriac then our normal dialect, he replied saying that the first one sounded so cool like if it would be used for only nobles men, while he said that the other one souneded like just gibberish. The point is, why speak a disgusting ghetto dialect of an amazing rich language?

Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.

So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both. ;)

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2015, 08:58:49 PM »
Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.

So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both. ;)

How are they hideous to the ears? Our ancestors used both those sounds for thousands of years until Syriac deteriorated from the 1500s onward...

Classical Syriac sounds just like Western Syriac but with some more sounds like Peh and Veth.

Hideous to the ears but eastern dialects have no problem using J, Cheh, and ZH (s in Treasure) sounds? J and Cheh in Aramaic sound hideous to my ears.

Not just that but doesn't having J and ZH in Syriac actually make it closer to Arabic?

'ayn and "HH" are part of the heritage that are an integral part of the language. Those two sounds existed in Syriac before Arabic even existed.

so no, Classical Syriac isn't closer to Arabic as even Hebrew had Ayn and HH in their language before they butchered it with German...

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2015, 11:51:34 PM »
How are they hideous to the ears? Our ancestors used both those sounds for thousands of years until Syriac deteriorated from the 1500s onward...
That doesn't suddenly make them not hideous. Arabs and Dutchmen can say the same thing about speaking their languages being thousands of years old, but they both sound gross.

Quote from:
Classical Syriac sounds just like Western Syriac but with some more sounds like Peh and Veth.
A video would be nice. ;)

Quote from:
Hideous to the ears but eastern dialects have no problem using J, Cheh, and ZH (s in Treasure) sounds? J and Cheh in Aramaic sound hideous to my ears.
Zh sounds nice. It makes words flow better like treasure, de jure, and Urmignaye.
Ch can get annoying. Words can always go through the change of ch->sh, like in chandelier. However, it might make our language sound too feminine. I'm not one of those Assyrians that changes kelba/chelba(dog), kayka/chaycha(cake), keeki/cheechi(teeth), etc. Like chengel(fork) can become shengel, but not kengel in my opinion.
J isn't used that much, but can always shift to zh(which it basically sounds like anyway) or g if necessary. Panjara(window), Jilvaye/Jilwaye(Assyrians from Jilu), and junta(purse/suitcase) can easily switch to panzhara, Zhilvaye/Zhilwaye, and zhunta, respectively.

I also think any word can shift between ch, j, and zh without sounding weird. Panchara/Panjara/Panzhara all sound harmonious to me.

Quote from:
Not just that but doesn't having J and ZH in Syriac actually make it closer to Arabic?
They're not used in the same context most of the time.

Quote from:
'ayn and "HH" are part of the heritage that are an integral part of the language. Those two sounds existed in Syriac before Arabic even existed.
So? 'Ayn sounds like someone is punching/giving you a weird massage while you're speaking. "I'm in p'ayn and I've g'ayned some weight." <- Illustrating my point. It also sounds very Arabic, since it has practically went extinct in Eastern Assyrian. "HH" sounds like you are taking a breath mid-sentence. The only word I can think of that uses it is Kah'wy(brown), which by the way, sounds terrible.

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so no, Classical Syriac isn't closer to Arabic as even Hebrew had Ayn and HH in their language before they butchered it with German...
I haven't listened to Classical Syriac(which I'll do now), but if these two sounds are prevalent, it can't sound that nice.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:02:36 AM by elevated »

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2015, 11:51:34 PM »

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2015, 12:06:27 AM »
Well, I listened to this Western Assyrian song, and I liked it for the most part(flows better than Eastern Assyrian in some regards), but I also heard that dreaded "th" sound present in some Eastern Assyrian dialects.

That is another sound that makes our language sound like Arabic. One of the Eastern Assyrian words that do that in some dialects is telaja->thelaja(fridge), which basically sounds like Arabic thelaj.



Here is an Eastern Assyrian song that has a similar melody for an accurate comparison:(skip to 1:30)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 12:59:17 AM by elevated »

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2015, 12:53:57 AM »
Are you seriously telling me that Syriac would've still formed into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic whether or not the Muslims destroyed our education institutions? I highly doubt Syriac would've become like this and that's what I want to correct.
Never said that. There is no goal when it comes to evolution. It would've sounded different for sure from the past Syriac. I do agree that English is the most mixed language in the world. Most of our words are French, Latin, German and Greek.

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Actually, no one has it correct. Western dialect has it nearly perfect to Classical/Educational Syriac. The only part that ruins it is by replacing Zqapa "ah" with "oh"
There is no right or wrong man! We all speak the Syriac language. One language isn't less or more wrong. We evolved. And that's that. We will never sound full on Syriac.

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We don't have much use of Ayn or Guttural H because our lack of proper language education, thanks to "the religion of peace", deteriorated the language into an uneducated ghetto dialect...
How ironic, since it's the people of the "religion of peace" that speak a language with a guttural H and Eh. Our language 'deteriorated' for the better. It sounds more pristine and clearer. Go look at the friggin' polls of the worst sounding languages - Hebrew, Arabic, Dutch and German. Why? Because they're so annoyingly and unpleasantly guttural. Assyrian evolved for the better. Only our church priests and Assyrian purists tend to be guttural. I'm glad that we all don't sound that way. And really? Ghetto? For me guttural sounds are worse than ghetto. They are primitive.

J and ZH sound French, rather than Arabic. Bonjour. I love the Zh sound actually.

Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.
I couldn't have said it better!

If I have to choose between an ugly Syriac variant (the traditional "Assyrian" language) over a clean, pristine sounding modern dialect I'd choose the latter any day. I listen to the Turoyo language and I get cringed with their massive use of guttural sounds. Chaldeans also use those.

Tell me Mrzurnaci, if our language is so Arabicized why the hell did we drop the guttural H and Ayn? And as what Elevated said, even if Syriac came before Arabic (which I commend) the guttural sounds won't automatically sound pretty.

Quote
Well, I listened to this Western Assyrian song, and I liked it for the most part(flows better than Eastern Assyrian in some regards), but I also heard that dreaded "th" sound present in some Eastern Assyrian dialects.

"Th" isn't too Arabic in my ears. Not to mention, it's predominantly used all over the world anyway. Incidentally, even a fictional language like Elvish (in LOTR) has a lot of "th" sounds. Oh, English speakers use it too. It's not a biggie to me. And most importantly, it doesn't sound unattractive me.

Tyrahes and Barwarneys use 'th' a lot (betha, kthetha, leyathen) - We personally don't. It's just a dialect, doesn't mean they are more or less Assyrian than us.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:23:28 AM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2015, 03:07:10 AM »
Tyrahes and Barwarneys use 'th' a lot (betha, kthetha, leyathen) - We personally don't. It's just a dialect, doesn't mean they are more or less Assyrian than us.


I wasn't insinuating that they are less Assyrian. Whatever language or dialect an Assyrian speaks, has no bearing on their "Assyrianess" to me. If they only speak English, good for them. If they only speak Russian, that's okay too. I personally just don't like the sound when it's overdone. What those dialects do, is exactly what some Urmignaye(the dialect I speak) do with the "ch" sound. It's just an overkill sometimes. Neither of these sounds are anywhere close to the irritation level of 'ayn and breathy h though. I would also have no problem with them becoming the basis of a "Standard Assyrian", if that ever happens. Same with any of the other dialects(Eastern or Western), as long as they're not extremely influenced by neighboring languages.

Flora Simon sings with them:


All of the Assyrian dialects are pretty close together now, anyway. It doesn't matter if they were originally from Hakkari or Urmia, you can completely comprehend each other, even with the subtle differences. That's why I can completely understand Flora Simon.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 03:10:14 AM by elevated »

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2015, 09:52:31 PM »
I wasn't insinuating that they are less Assyrian. Whatever language or dialect an Assyrian speaks, has no bearing on their "Assyrianess" to me. If they only speak English, good for them. If they only speak Russian, that's okay too. I personally just don't like the sound when it's overdone. What those dialects do, is exactly what some Urmignaye(the dialect I speak) do with the "ch" sound. It's just an overkill sometimes. Neither of these sounds are anywhere close to the irritation level of 'ayn and breathy h though. I would also have no problem with them becoming the basis of a "Standard Assyrian", if that ever happens. Same with any of the other dialects(Eastern or Western), as long as they're not extremely influenced by neighboring languages.

Flora Simon sings with them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJvuSQ8rtg#ws

All of the Assyrian dialects are pretty close together now, anyway. It doesn't matter if they were originally from Hakkari or Urmia, you can completely comprehend each other, even with the subtle differences. That's why I can completely understand Flora Simon.


My post about what's more or less Assyrian was more towards Mrzurnaci (though I happened to have it under your quotes).

And yes, I actually agree that they can be an overkill - the "ch" and "th". At times it gets rather funny. Flora Simon overdoes it too. Ramsen Shino is an Iraqi Koine speaker but he uses them in some of his songs (Dushala, La Gkhook) - I guess to garner the Tyarayeh's attention. But then again, some people just naturally speak that way.

I speak the so-called "Iraqi Koine", as does my family and relatives. So we don't say the "ch" and "th" (some may use "ch", like my late grandma, due to her Urmi background). Incidentally, the Urmian's use of "v" does sound a little pesky (warda = varda).

For me anyway, what matters the most is that we dropped the guttural H and Eh. Though some of our traditional hymns retains them. For example, they are heard in this Linda George liturgical song (just the guttural 'eh', and "th"). For the untrained ear it sounds Arabic (yes, yes, we know that Syriac came before it, but we would be confused with Arabic either way since everyone knows how it sounds, unlike Syriac):


« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 10:09:05 PM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline GonzaE

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Syriac language
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2016, 11:59:29 AM »
"Your people are the product of multiple migrations, just like everyone else. Your language was bequeathed to you by one of those migrating groups."

Dear Angela
What abouth "your pople"?
Publicaron una buena entrada acerca de vardenafilo y sus contraindicaciones y algunos datos sobre Cialis y sus efectos.

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2016, 01:40:52 PM »
Bringing up old english? lmao, my MOM made the same excuse/argument.

English is a clusterf**k of other languages and roots...

Syriac is not. There's a specific reason why ALL Syriac letters have their own, distinct sounds...

Maybe we don't have to go back to Classical Syriac but the idea is to revive our old sounds.

ܚ - There's a good reason Kheth sounds like the "Arabic-style" as you put it, Guttural H.

In Sureth, we modify Kaph to become the Kha sound. We seriously do not need two "kha" sounds.

Same thing with ܒ going from Veth to Weth. Why do we need another W sound when we have Waw?

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? The idea is to revive aspects of the Syriac language that shouldn't have died out.

Are you seriously telling me that Syriac would've still formed into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic whether or not the Muslims destroyed our education institutions?

I highly doubt Syriac would've become like this and that's what I want to correct.



I've already passionately felt the same way ....we just need a means to reform and standardise the language.
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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2016, 06:41:11 PM »

I've already passionately felt the same way ....we just need a means to reform and standardise the language.

standardized with a standard dialect. A single dialect that is accepted by both West and Eastern dialect speaking Assyrians of all churches!

 

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