Author Topic: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?  (Read 797 times)

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Offline Cascade

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I have heard it's because women are loud and emotional mourners, and so they'll disturb the process? If that's the reason then it is a really superficial and ignorant one. I know a lot of men who wail loudly when they mourn over the dead, and many women who remain silent. We should make a progression in this regard and allow any person to visit the graveyard during burial, without restrictions based on gender and whatnot. What irks me is that they hypocritically allow people to bring in their children during burial (and I thought they're the loudest).

This is basic human rights and it's just silly that we hold on it when there is no mention of it in the bible anyway, and has no religious taboo whatsoever (like a woman being uncovered in the church, which is understandable). This tradition seems to be entirely cultural and really trivial, where it can always be changed or updated (unlike religious practices).

P.S. Is this practice universal among Assyrians in the globe anyway? I know we do it here in Australia, or at least in our Nestorian church. And I've seen it practiced among Assyrian Americans. Not sure about the rest or other churches.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 04:13:38 AM by Neon »


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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 12:41:55 PM »
what? I never heard of this. When some of my family members died, women were there at the funeral and burial...

Offline Kelba

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Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 03:50:25 PM »
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban

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Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 03:50:25 PM »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 07:00:39 PM »
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban

not only that, I've never heard of it in a cultural way either. When we buried my grandpa, my mom and other relatives like my aunts and my female cousins were there. The Qasha and clergy didn't say anything about it either.

Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2017, 08:14:48 PM »
I think it is more traditional than an actual rule that is held, for the above reasons that Neon said.  Most women nowadays know not to go because of traditional reasons but you will still find some women attending the burial, who either don't like the tradition (and can keep their dignity), or don't even know about it.  I myself am undecided.  On one hand, most women can keep their dignity and not cause a commotion and it is unfair to deny them because of the actions of other women.  On the other hand, I have seen Assyrian women going off like fireworks in a regular church service when the "Gazino" song comes up (it always amazed me how they come to church in a great mood and they lose their minds when "Gazino" comes up), yet women are not banned from attending the church.  For me, it is a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (*1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline Cascade

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2017, 04:10:59 AM »
what? I never heard of this. When some of my family members died, women were there at the funeral and burial...
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban
Women are allowed at the funeral service held at a church. However, afterwards, only men are allowed to go to the graveyard. Women are only permitted to go the cemetery AFTER the burial process is completed. That process involves a small mass where the priest prays over the deceased at the cemetery, before the coffin is laid down. It is during that procedure, women are not permitted to come. It is customary for only men to attend. Now maybe it is not a huge taboo for a woman to come (or there is no restriction), but it's just not recommended? I don't know, but I never see women there.

I think it is more traditional than an actual rule that is held, for the above reasons that Neon said.  Most women nowadays know not to go because of traditional reasons but you will still find some women attending the burial, who either don't like the tradition (and can keep their dignity), or don't even know about it.  I myself am undecided.  On one hand, most women can keep their dignity and not cause a commotion and it is unfair to deny them because of the actions of other women.  On the other hand, I have seen Assyrian women going off like fireworks in a regular church service when the "Gazino" song comes up (it always amazed me how they come to church in a great mood and they lose their minds when "Gazino" comes up), yet women are not banned from attending the church.  For me, it is a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Yeah. If the church allows woman's wails and loud laments, what would happen if they "perpetrate" that at the cemetery too? Either way, it's a natural reaction. This is a really unacceptable and inconsistent tradition that takes away basic rights. Are they afraid the women would turn violent and would snatch away the body from their grief and fight the funeral directors? Last time I checked, a man stricken by grief would always be more capable of committing such physical madness, as he's stronger and has testosterone. But I am generalizing. No different to their generalizations of a loud, emotional woman who never stops screaming.

What's "gazino? You mean that "Pushoon Beshlama" threnody that's played for the departed?
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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2017, 01:14:57 PM »
Women are allowed at the funeral service held at a church. However, afterwards, only men are allowed to go to the graveyard. Women are only permitted to go the cemetery AFTER the burial process is completed. That process involves a small mass where the priest prays over the deceased at the cemetery, before the coffin is laid down. It is during that procedure, women are not permitted to come. It is customary for only men to attend. Now maybe it is not a huge taboo for a woman to come (or there is no restriction), but it's just not recommended? I don't know, but I never see women there.

Never saw this or heard of this. Are you sure you're not mistaking it for "clergy only" ?
Also, my grandfather's burial had the ENTIRE family there with the qasha making the funerary prayers in front of us. I vividly remember it.
I also remember, did you forget about how it's good for Assyrians to have subcultures? :)
subcultures will have bad or good ideas.

Why you care whether women are allowed or not to go to a funeral process idk but it's not a big deal.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2017, 08:42:18 PM »
Never saw this or heard of this. Are you sure you're not mistaking it for "clergy only" ?
No. There are clergymen and male loved ones during the process.

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Also, my grandfather's burial had the ENTIRE family there with the qasha making the funerary prayers in front of us. I vividly remember it.
Like I said, perhaps there is no actual restriction for a woman to be at the burial; They're just not recommended to be there.

Or maybe you're having false memories, as they're common for childhood experiences? You probably remember a female figure AFTER the funerary prayers, when women are finally permitted to be there (in the afternoon or the next day). And now, since I brought up the subject, your mind copied and pasted a lady in the burial process? ;)

Quote
I also remember, did you forget about how it's good for Assyrians to have subcultures? :)
subcultures will have bad or good ideas.
I thought I said things like that. I used to be for the idea of millets and all that, but you used to be like "we should be united and not be tribal nomads". Lol.

Quote
Why you care whether women are allowed or not to go to a funeral process idk but it's not a big deal.
You said it yourself. It's not a big deal and it's really trivial. So why not let anyone come during the burial process? I'd also complain if men were not allowed.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Mr. Tambourine Man

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2017, 10:52:16 PM »
I've never heard of this practice.
''An anthropologist squeezed my arm, just for the satisfaction of having touched the flesh and blood of an Assyrian.'' - Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 12:47:30 PM »
I never heard of this either and doubt this ever happens.
β€œIt is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

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Offline Cascade

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2017, 10:42:54 AM »
I never heard of this either and doubt this ever happens.
It does (to a significant extent). I wouldn't make this thread for nothing.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2017, 11:03:16 PM »
Heck!  If Cascade and I can actually agree on something, there must be some substance to it.  I know there were zero females present at the burial of my father.  They waited at the church for the men to return.  This was in Sydney.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (*1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 01:54:09 AM »
Because I said so.

Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 05:42:28 AM »
According to the rules of the Church of the East, you can't marry the daughter of the best man and bridesmaid from your parent's wedding.  Most people have never been affected by this rule and so don't realise that it exists.  Some people have also gone "through the system undetected" and not even informed the church because they themselves did not know that this rule exists.  Some priests/bishops are pedantic about it and others deliberately ignore it.  Vast majority of people don't even know about it. 

Just like many of us will still cross the road at the traffic light when it is showing red if there are no cars around, simply because the authorities won't arrest you for breaking this rule, it is exactly the same for the women attending the burials.  The church leaders let it go nowadays but the rule still exists.  It is up to the priest/bishop if he will be pedantic about the rule or not.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (*1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline Cascade

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2017, 07:55:30 AM »
Heck!  If Cascade and I can actually agree on something, there must be some substance to it.  I know there were zero females present at the burial of my father.  They waited at the church for the men to return.  This was in Sydney.
As much as two people have opposing opinions, they will still have a common ground on one thing I guess.  :mrgreen:

Just like many of us will still cross the road at the traffic light when it is showing red if there are no cars around, simply because the authorities won't arrest you for breaking this rule, it is exactly the same for the women attending the burials.  The church leaders let it go nowadays but the rule still exists.  It is up to the priest/bishop if he will be pedantic about the rule or not.
Yeah, pretty much this.

Maybe it's a Sydney thing?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Crocodile Bani

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2017, 07:53:55 PM »

Maybe it's a Sydney thing?
It will be a Sydney church leadership thing more than anything else.  Then again, I don't know 100% if this rule is enforced 100% of the time.  In the case of my father's funeral, most of my female relatives are "churchies" so they did not even attempt to attend the burial, therefore nobody needed to enforce any rule, because nobody was attempting to break it.
Back in Darwin for the 2nd time in my life.  Originally from Sydney (Fairfield area), lived in Vanuatu, Japan (twice), Thailand and Darwin once previously.  Western Sydney Wanderers fan as well as Parramatta Eels.  Veteran of 3 World Cups (*1994, 2006 and 2010).

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 06:06:58 PM »
> reads title
Because cemeteries don't have kitchens. *badum tss*

Offline Cascade

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Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2017, 06:01:33 AM »
> reads title
Because cemeteries don't have kitchens. *badum tss*
Lol. Good one.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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