Author Topic: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline xnicksomox

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*Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« on: January 17, 2011, 12:40:11 AM »
ok so i was reading a book that teaches people who don't understand Aramaic, how to speak both East and West.

One of the lessons was a simple sentance such as: I am writing --  Ktawa win (East), Ko kothawno (West)

In the Chaldean dialect we *CAN* say Kthawa win (with a -th- sound unlike the normal East Aramaic), but we usually say eewin b'kthawa.

My question is do people who speak East Aramaic usually say ktawa win or eewin b'ktawa?


ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline Assyrian_Man

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 04:15:25 AM »
I say b'khtawen

Offline Freydun

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 06:47:07 AM »
Holi b'kthawa
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 09:28:59 AM by Freydun »

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 06:47:07 AM »

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 07:22:09 AM »
I say b'khtawen
Holi b'khtawa

Isn´t the using of the b in this case wrong? I think it´s wrong because as far as I know the b/bt in front of a verb signalizes futur tense.
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Offline Freydun

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 07:28:24 AM »
Isn´t the using of the b in this case wrong? I think it´s wrong because as far as I know the b/bt in front of a verb signalizes futur tense.
Both ways works fine with my dialect.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 07:29:32 AM by Freydun »

Offline Assyrian_Man

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2011, 09:10:14 AM »
Isn´t the using of the b in this case wrong? I think it´s wrong because as far as I know the b/bt in front of a verb signalizes futur tense.

Hehe, no. B'khatwen is future tense :)

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 03:05:10 PM »
Hehe, no. B'khatwen is future tense :)

Really? Ah comeon, I don´t belive that :) I am sure that the b/bt in front of an verb signalizes futur tense in all eastern dialects.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 03:12:50 PM by Zawoyo »
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline Tambur

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 06:10:21 PM »
For the record, people who are from the Syriac Orthodox Church do NOT speak Western Aramaic, they speak Eastern Aramaic just like those of the Assyrian/Chaldean side, what you're referring to is Western and Eastern Syriac which is an Eastern Aramaic language that developed in North Mesopotamia.

The other thing is you have to separate proper language from slang, many villages and regions have local dialects that are slang, most of these dialects did not come from Syriac (Syriac was only the language of Urhay), through the adoption of Christianity however Syriac became the official proper language of our people and to this date, we consider it our classical language just like how the Arabs consider the Quranic Arabic as their classical language, but in reality what we speak today is just simply Northeastern Aramaic dialects that developed in ancient Assyria when the language was adopted.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 07:37:10 PM »
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 07:37:33 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Tambur

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 08:04:41 PM »



There are plenty of errors on that map, don't take it too seriously.

Offline Nahroyo

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 12:08:04 AM »
Yeah, like the fact that Western Syriac is also spoken in Lebanon, and the Western Aramaic Spot should be moved into Syria over the village of Malula

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 01:37:59 AM »
Ok well I meant how do people who speak East Syriac say it. I realize there is slang but I'm pretty sure even my priest and bishop use both versions. I think that Kthawawin and eewin b'kthawa are pretty much the same.
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 10:38:12 PM »
There are plenty of errors on that map, don't take it too seriously.

how about you tell me the errors rather then just saying?
because I could fixing it at the moment......

Offline Neon

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2016, 06:21:44 AM »
I say B'ktawen or eewen ktawa. They're both present tenses (I believe).

That's a good map up there, Mrzurnaci. I saved it. Btw, you forgot to include the Jewish Aramaic dialects. They sound more intelligible to the eastern ones than the other western dialects (including Turoyo).
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Offline Sharukinu

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2016, 07:45:26 PM »
I say B'ktawen or eewen ktawa. They're both present tenses (I believe).

That's a good map up there, Mrzurnaci. I saved it. Btw, you forgot to include the Jewish Aramaic dialects. They sound more intelligible to the eastern ones than the other western dialects (including Turoyo).

It's all the same thing for East Assyrian speakers.

b- = [prefix] -ing [this prefix is not necessary but reduces ambiguity]
ktwava = [verb] writing
bi'ktaava = writing [more formal]
eewin/eewen/eewan/dun/haun = I'm
ktaw'en = I'm'writing

note that "eewen" is often used to mark a question, especially when it appears at the beginning of a sentence. Therefore, "eewen" often means "am I?
so: eewen ktaava = am I writing?
eewen bi'ktaaava = am I writing? [formal]

examples:
ktaava eewen= writing, I'm = I'm writing
bi'ktava eewen= writing, I'm = I'm writing [formal]
eewen ktaava = Am I writing?
eewen bi'ktaava = Am I writing? [formal]
dun bi'ktaava = I'm writing [formal]
ktaav'ewen = I'm'writing = I'm writing
ktaav''en= I''writing = I'm writing
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 08:02:10 PM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Neon

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2016, 07:55:57 PM »
It's all the same thing for East Assyrian speakers.

b- = [prefix] -ing [this prefix is not necessary but reduces ambiguity]
ktwava = [verb] writing
bi'ktaava = writing [more formal]
eewin/eewen/eewan/dun/haun = I'm
ktaw'en = I'm'writing

note that "eewen" is often used to mark a question, especially when it appears at the beginning of a sentence. Therefore, "eewen" often means "am I?
so: eewen ktaava = am I writing?
eewen bi'ktaaava = am I writing? [formal]

examples:
ktaava eewen= writing, I'm = I'm writing
bi'ktava eewen= writing, I'm = I'm writing [formal]
eewen ktaava = Am I writing?
eewen bi'ktaava = Am I writing? [formal]
dun bi'ktaava = I'm writing [formal]
ktaav'ewen = I'm'writing = I'm writing
ktaav''en= I''writing = I'm writing
Oh, thanks. I knew that there had to be some sort of a grammatical difference between "eewin" and "bik-".

Which is the correct consonant for Ktawa though, V or W? You used both. Or is it just a dialect thing (Iranian Assyrians use the V for instance)?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2016, 08:01:03 PM »
Oh, thanks. I knew that there had to be some sort of a grammatical difference between "eewin" and "bik-".

Which is the correct consonant for Ktawa though, V or W? You used both. Or is it just a dialect thing (Iranian Assyrians use the V for instance)?

It should be a V since it's spelt with our equivalent of the letter B with a dot beneath it (which was used to represent the V sound).

So basically, we had many B's that became V's and over time they became W's.
Sleeva -> sleewa (cross)
Ktaava -> ktaawa (book)
gnuv -> gnuw (steal)
'tuv -> 'tuw (sit)



I would personally always use the "eew-" stem to mark questions whenever it appears in it's non contracted forms.
So this is how I would apply these words to differentiate questions from statements:
Ktaava eewen = writing, am I? = Am I writing?
Eewen Ktaava = am I writing?
Ktaav'ewen = I am writing
Ktaav''en = I am writing
Dun ktaava = I am writing
Haun ktaava = I am writing
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 08:01:59 PM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2016, 01:11:58 AM »
It should be a V since it's spelt with our equivalent of the letter B with a dot beneath it (which was used to represent the V sound).

So basically, we had many B's that became V's and over time they became W's.
Sleeva -> sleewa (cross)
Ktaava -> ktaawa (book)
gnuv -> gnuw (steal)
'tuv -> 'tuw (sit)



I would personally always use the "eew-" stem to mark questions whenever it appears in it's non contracted forms.
So this is how I would apply these words to differentiate questions from statements:
Ktaava eewen = writing, am I? = Am I writing?
Eewen Ktaava = am I writing?
Ktaav'ewen = I am writing
Ktaav''en = I am writing
Dun ktaava = I am writing
Haun ktaava = I am writing

personally, I think we should revive the Veth thing even though it disappeared very fast but still.

Every letter should be its own sound, at least for the sake of consistency.

Semitic languages already have some form of consistency using the same prefixes as verbs, and using a set amount of consonants as roots for various meanings.

I think we should apply the consistency with the letters and their sounds as well.

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: *Dialects of Aramaic Question*
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2016, 11:20:21 PM »
^I agree about reviving the Veth.

Strength of the language comes first, tradition/authenticity comes immediately afterwards. Based on that, I would not be so rigid about how we use our language. For example, I think we should make extensive use of affixes and, perhaps even complex grammatical cases.
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

 

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