Author Topic: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?  (Read 12147 times)

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Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2011, 05:31:18 PM »
ASHOOR I'll answer you first cuz ur easy :)

Read the thread under this Suryoyo, then come back.

They tell they Syriac/Aramen guy that you can't trace your roots to Aramaens because at the end it's just too hard. But we do know the Aramens were assimilated into the Assyrian empire and are therefore Assyrian. Assyrian wasn't a race, just a nation, so Assyrian is like a nationality.

Everyone agrees with that because it's true you can't trace back that far.

Butttttttttt then the Assyrians got taken over by the Chaldeans of the Babylonian empire. The Babylonians colonized formerly ASSYRIAN land and assimilated the Assyrians (as the Assyians did with Aramaens). So then the Assyrian people belong to the Babylonian empire. So you are now all Babylonian using your own logic in the thread Suryoyo and using cold hard facts. :)

****************************************************************************************************

Rumtaya, Thanks for adding "as" onto everything. LOL you consider Sureth and Suraya to be Assyrian.

Then to make your information look EVEN MORE ridiculous you added the date 1939. Which was only 72 years ago. So thanks for prooving that Assyrianism only existed for about 80-90 years.

I don't know if you know this but there is no Assyrian language. This refers to the Akkadian spoken by the Assyrian Empire before the Lingua Franca switched to ARAMAIC, our recent language that we use to this day :D



Maybe you shouldn't really post on here till you actually read my previous posts (like I told you earlier). Your making yourself look bad :/
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2011, 06:40:41 PM »
ASHOOR I'll answer you first cuz ur easy :)

Read the thread under this Suryoyo, then come back.

They tell they Syriac/Aramen guy that you can't trace your roots to Aramaens because at the end it's just too hard. But we do know the Aramens were assimilated into the Assyrian empire and are therefore Assyrian. Assyrian wasn't a race, just a nation, so Assyrian is like a nationality.

Everyone agrees with that because it's true you can't trace back that far.

Butttttttttt then the Assyrians got taken over by the Chaldeans of the Babylonian empire. The Babylonians colonized formerly ASSYRIAN land and assimilated the Assyrians (as the Assyians did with Aramaens). So then the Assyrian people belong to the Babylonian empire. So you are now all Babylonian using your own logic in the thread Suryoyo and using cold hard facts. :)

****************************************************************************************************

Rumtaya, Thanks for adding "as" onto everything. LOL you consider Sureth and Suraya to be Assyrian.

Then to make your information look EVEN MORE ridiculous you added the date 1939. Which was only 72 years ago. So thanks for prooving that Assyrianism only existed for about 80-90 years.

I don't know if you know this but there is no Assyrian language. This refers to the Akkadian spoken by the Assyrian Empire before the Lingua Franca switched to ARAMAIC, our recent language that we use to this day :D



Maybe you shouldn't really post on here till you actually read my previous posts (like I told you earlier). Your making yourself look bad :/

Will it help if I told you that the Phoenicians transcribed Assyrian-Akkadian name Assurayu into  '-SH-R  with ' = 'Alaph, and then the name went on to Greek which has no "SH" sound so they used Sigma in which the shape and alphabetic order of Sigma in Greek would be Shin in the overall Semitic abjad alphabet.

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2011, 07:51:55 PM »
Nick, speaking of 'easy', can you make your last reply a little easier to understand. No offense brother, but I didn't get it. You are referencing things and persons am not even familiar with.

As for using logic, I don't know if you can use logic to events in history, can you? It is in the past and done with, with each situation happening differently. So can you say 'by this logic, this is supposed to happen...'?
Not always.

Ashoor

Ashoor
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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2011, 07:51:55 PM »

Offline Hanuni

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2011, 12:45:17 PM »
No Rumtaya obviously you haven't read too many posta on this thread. I'm 17 and have been doing real research for at least a year. If you read these messages you'd see there is no proof for belonging to the Assyrian nation, there is no Assyrian language, and before the 19 century there was no calling our people Assyrian. (in the middle east people referred to religion more than ethnicity. I don't know if you know that)

Maybe you should read the posts on here and even sims from the thread under this (Suryoyo). You will understand why Assyrianizing everything is not justified at all and is just stuff spoonfed to you from your "Assyrian" Church of the East that has not even existed before the 18th or 19th century, just like you think the Chaldean Church tries to spoonfeed me.

Funny thing a thread about Chaldean identity turned into a thread about religion, eh?

Anyways I will get back to your posts later on as they reflect a lack of knowledge within the area.
“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Hanuni

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2011, 07:32:31 PM »
No nation on this earth is a race or has ever been one. Assyrians were no race and neither were the Greeks of that time. To be an Assyrian was an identity that evolved in northern Mesopotamia. With time, after the empire fell, to be an Assyrian became a homogeneous ethnicity as isolation was needed in order to survive as a nation.

You mention that the term 'Assyrian' does not date back more than some decades, if i've gotten it right? The term Assyrians for our people has been recorded though out all of history. I post some few of many quotes of history:

"The Assyrians went to war with helmets upon their heads made of brass, and plaited in a strange fashion which is not easy to describe. They carried shields, lances, and daggers very like the Egyptian; but in addition they had wooden clubs knotted with iron, and linen corselets. This people, whom the Hellenes call Syrians, are called Assyrians by the barbarians. The Chaldeans served in their ranks, and they had for commander Otaspes, the son of Artachaeus."
-Herodotus: from The History of the Persian Wars, c. 430 BCE

"The fields of Assyria were devoted by Julian to the calamities of war, The trembling Assyrians summoned the rivers to their assistance; and completed, with their own hands, the ruin of their country … Two cities of Assyria presumed to resist the arms of a Roman emperor: and they both paid the severe penalty of their rashness…. The Assyrians maintained their loyalty by a skilful, as well as vigorous, defense; till the lucky stroke of a battering-ram, having opened a large breach, by shattering one of the angles of the wall, they hastily retired into the fortifications of the interior citadel ] (63) which means, that during the time of the Persian king Shah’bur Ardashir and Julian the Roman emperor who was killed at the entrances of Ctesephon during his attack on the city (64), the Assyrians were ready to face a great Empire and they were united even though they were overcome by the Persian Empire."
-Edward Gibbon (1737-1794); Libanius (314-394)

"The Jacobite case appears to be of a different character. As for Tur Abdin and its local vernacular turōyō,
14, Eugen Prym and Albert Socin state that ‘as [a] race they call themselves Surjôje [...], as Christians Surôje’. Prym and Socin had also heard from a befriended Armenian student at the University Tübingen that the Armenian-speaking Jacobites of Kharput on their part were calling themselves assorzi (Prym and Socin 1881). This observation had also been made by Horatio Southgate four decades earlier.15 In his Narratives from a Visit to the Syrian (Jacobite) Church, the Anglican missionary bishop reports that when he met with locals of Kharput in 1844, they not only called themselves assouri but ‘claim their origin, being sons, as they say, of Assour, (Asshur,)’ (Southgate c1856, 80).16 We read further that
‘Their common language is Turkish, in which language it is that the Athour of the Syriac and Arabic is converted into Asour, and the Athouri of the Arabic, (Syriac, Othoroyo) into Asouri, the common name of the Syrians. (Southgate c1856, 87)"
-Aryo Makko, The Historical Roots of Contemporary Controversies: National Revival and the Assyrian ‘Concept of Unity’, Stockholm University

Then let's also not forget Tatian the Assyrian with others who stated their Assyrian identity. The continuation of the Assyrian nation needs no more evidence. It's been proven in every field. So what is it you want?

Assyrian is our national identity. We live in Assyria and have maintained our Assyrian culture. Every sect is connected to Assyria, but Assyria seems to not be connected to every member in the various sects.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 07:34:56 PM by Hanuni »
“Their enemies had realized their national potential long before the Assyrians themselves. The enemy was not afraid of good farmers, good parents, good church-going parishioners...the enemy was afraid of Assyrians wrapped in nationhood.”

-Mount Semele, Ivan Kakovitch

Offline Tambur

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2011, 12:22:15 AM »
ASHOOR I'll answer you first cuz ur easy :)

Read the thread under this Suryoyo, then come back.

They tell they Syriac/Aramen guy that you can't trace your roots to Aramaens because at the end it's just too hard. But we do know the Aramens were assimilated into the Assyrian empire and are therefore Assyrian. Assyrian wasn't a race, just a nation, so Assyrian is like a nationality.

Everyone agrees with that because it's true you can't trace back that far.

Butttttttttt then the Assyrians got taken over by the Chaldeans of the Babylonian empire. The Babylonians colonized formerly ASSYRIAN land and assimilated the Assyrians (as the Assyians did with Aramaens). So then the Assyrian people belong to the Babylonian empire. So you are now all Babylonian using your own logic in the thread Suryoyo and using cold hard facts. :)

****************************************************************************************************

Rumtaya, Thanks for adding "as" onto everything. LOL you consider Sureth and Suraya to be Assyrian.

Then to make your information look EVEN MORE ridiculous you added the date 1939. Which was only 72 years ago. So thanks for prooving that Assyrianism only existed for about 80-90 years.

I don't know if you know this but there is no Assyrian language. This refers to the Akkadian spoken by the Assyrian Empire before the Lingua Franca switched to ARAMAIC, our recent language that we use to this day :D



Maybe you shouldn't really post on here till you actually read my previous posts (like I told you earlier). Your making yourself look bad :/

The desperation never ends with you does it? Anyways, no it's NOT the same thing for a couple of reasons:

- Historically speaking, it's even harder to trace to a Chaldean background since the term Chaldean was only used among certain tribes that lived in South Mesopotamia, at least with the Arameans you had diverse groups that lived in different areas.

- Chaldeans never really colonized the north, I'm not sure where you came up with this crap but colonization was not the plan, after all why would they? They just destroyed the north and Babylon was a flourishing capital at the time, I could understand the army being in the area to keep things under control, but this was the same case with the Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, etc.

- There never was a Chaldea as a region, it was known as Babylon and the people living in it were known as Babylonians.

- Assyria and Babylonia are old geographical identities that trace to 4000 years back, starting from 2000 BC North Mesopotamia became known as Assyria which was taken from the town of Assur as the first capital of the first Assyrian kingdom, and Babylonia in Central/South Mesopotamia which takes its name from the city of Babylon as the first capital, both of these names were used for the regions until the arrival of the Arabs, the names were still in use but they fully lost it when the Ottoman Turks took over, so you're talking about at least 3000 years of history here that the north was being called after the Assyrians and the south being called after the Babylonians, there was no Chaldean in these geographical definitions and surely, no one ever called the north Babylon nor called the south Assyria.

End of story.

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2011, 12:32:47 AM »
The desperation never ends with you does it? Anyways, no it's NOT the same thing for a couple of reasons:

- Historically speaking, it's even harder to trace to a Chaldean background since the term Chaldean was only used among certain tribes that lived in South Mesopotamia, at least with the Arameans you had diverse groups that lived in different areas.

- Chaldeans never really colonized the north, I'm not sure where you came up with this crap but colonization was not the plan, after all why would they? They just destroyed the north and Babylon was a flourishing capital at the time, I could understand the army being in the area to keep things under control, but this was the same case with the Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, etc.

- There never was a Chaldea as a region, it was known as Babylon and the people living in it were known as Babylonians.

- Assyria and Babylonia are old geographical identities that trace to 4000 years back, starting from 2000 BC North Mesopotamia became known as Assyria which was taken from the town of Assur as the first capital of the first Assyrian kingdom, and Babylonia in Central/South Mesopotamia which takes its name from the city of Babylon as the first capital, both of these names were used for the regions until the arrival of the Arabs, the names were still in use but they fully lost it when the Ottoman Turks took over, so you're talking about at least 3000 years of history here that the north was being called after the Assyrians and the south being called after the Babylonians, there was no Chaldean in these geographical definitions and surely, no one ever called the north Babylon nor called the south Assyria.

End of story.

honestly, with all due respect to Nick, he is free to debate, but I am surprised we all spent so much time replying to a historical topic that basically doesn't make sense.

Having said that and since he has time and interest to read into these things, I suggest that Nick becomes an Assyriologist! He will have the pleasure of coming back to this forum and laugh at his own threads (especially this one)

ASHOOR
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Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2011, 12:00:02 AM »
ineveh's greatness was short-lived. In around 627 BCE after the death of its last great king Ashurbanipal, the Neo-Assyrian empire began to unravel due to a series of bitter civil wars, and Assyria was attacked by its former vassals, the Babylonians and Medes who, in about 616 BCE, in a coalition with the Scythians and Cimmerians, sacked Nineveh in 612 BCE after a long siege, after which it was razed to the ground. Most of the people in the city who could not escape to the last Assyrian strongholds in the north and west, were either massacred or deported out of the city. Many unburied skeletons were found by the archaeologists at the site. The Assyrian empire then came to an end by 605 BCE, the Medes and Babylonians dividing its colonies between them.
******************

If you had any real knowledge of history in general you'd know that people colonize after they take over. :D
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2011, 09:46:54 AM »
ineveh's greatness was short-lived. In around 627 BCE after the death of its last great king Ashurbanipal, the Neo-Assyrian empire began to unravel due to a series of bitter civil wars, and Assyria was attacked by its former vassals, the Babylonians and Medes who, in about 616 BCE, in a coalition with the Scythians and Cimmerians, sacked Nineveh in 612 BCE after a long siege, after which it was razed to the ground. Most of the people in the city who could not escape to the last Assyrian strongholds in the north and west, were either massacred or deported out of the city. Many unburied skeletons were found by the archaeologists at the site. The Assyrian empire then came to an end by 605 BCE, the Medes and Babylonians dividing its colonies between them.
******************

If you had any real knowledge of history in general you'd know that people colonize after they take over. :D
nice wikipedia quote, that doesn't even have it's sources cited for me to check out
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:47:23 AM by mrzurnaci »

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2011, 02:24:37 PM »
It doesn't even need a source if you know history u know that everyone who conquers land colonizes it. What else would they do say ok u guys are now Babylonian see you later ? Lmfaooo
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2011, 07:13:18 PM »
It doesn't even need a source if you know history u know that everyone who conquers land colonizes it. What else would they do say ok u guys are now Babylonian see you later ? Lmfaooo
the fact that the last king of Babylon was Nabonidus who was an Assyrian from Harran, and after that we lose our independence forever, that's not something to LMFAO about........

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2011, 08:16:11 PM »
So what that area became BABYLONIAN territory not Assyrian. So either you gotta renounce the whole concept of "the empire is what matters because we can't really trace Aramaen blood" or you will have to say that we are Babylonian.

It's easy enough :D
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2011, 08:17:48 PM »
And btw having an Assyrian ruling a Babylonian empire means that there is a way to track pure Assyrian blood. You can't say that Aramaens have to call themselves Assyrians because their in the Assyrian empire.
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2011, 09:32:06 PM »
And btw having an Assyrian ruling a Babylonian empire means that there is a way to track pure Assyrian blood. You can't say that Aramaens have to call themselves Assyrians because their in the Assyrian empire.
we can because Arameans became mixed with Akkadians after forced deportations by Assyrian government thus effectively creating the predecessor to Modern Assyro-Chaldeans

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2011, 10:52:09 AM »
Ok so if the Aramaens became Assyrian because they assimilated into the Assyrian empire then the Assyrians should be called Babylonian because they assimilated into the Babylonian empire.
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2011, 02:58:54 PM »
Ok so if the Aramaens became Assyrian because they assimilated into the Assyrian empire then the Assyrians should be called Babylonian because they assimilated into the Babylonian empire.
that would be unnecessary since Arameans were deported to Babylon and Assyrian heartlands, also don't forget that stock Assyrians and Babylonians are Akkadians in ancestry, think of Babylonia and Assyria as Civil War era Union and Confederate states of America

also, i don't know if Babylonians did assimilations, as the whole goal of Babylonia fighting against Assyria was for independence and stop Assyrian foreign policies.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 03:00:49 PM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Damail

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #86 on: August 19, 2011, 06:24:04 AM »
Chaldeans are nothing but Catholic Assyrians. End of.

Offline Malik Danno

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2011, 08:35:10 PM »
ok ill start fresh ... i didnt read any of the above posts cause they dont get to the point.

xnicksomox this is a question for you:

What is a Chaldean?

like 'who' would belong in this 'Chaldean' title?

(I always have this convo with Chaldeans and they always end up dumbfounded cause they have no clue how to answer these questions)

P.S. there are follow-up questions

Offline khayaatour

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Re: Can Chaldean really be our true ethnicity?
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2011, 02:33:08 PM »
Chaldeans, what can i Say, In Iraq they are successed:) they have already got alot fo attention, and the reason we (assyrians) been called as one nation in Iraqi constitution is because of them. Sure we call them Assyrians, and they are assyrians, but thats not what we see in Iraq and nor in Ainkawa...

In Ainkawa, they are really strong adn they are claiming demands and rights with Chaldean as name not Assyrian...

So, if you ask me, I dont know, i dont think they consider themselves as Assyrians, if you dont believe me, visit Iraq and Ainkawa...

 

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a song i posted on chaldean chat loool

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Replies: 7
Views: 1112
Last post January 02, 2006, 01:07:41 PM
by Assyrian G Fo Lyfe