Assyrian Voice Forum

Assyrian Culture => Culture & History => Topic started by: Neon on May 16, 2017, 09:54:56 PM

Title: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Neon on May 16, 2017, 09:54:56 PM
I have heard it's because women are loud and emotional mourners, and so they'll disturb the process? If that's the reason then it is a really superficial and ignorant one. I know a lot of men who wail loudly when they mourn over the dead, and many women who remain silent. We should make a progression in this regard and allow any person to visit the graveyard during burial, without restrictions based on gender and whatnot. What irks me is that they hypocritically allow people to bring in their children during burial (and I thought they're the loudest).

This is basic human rights and it's just silly that we hold on it when there is no mention of it in the bible anyway, and has no religious taboo whatsoever (like a woman being uncovered in the church, which is understandable). This tradition seems to be entirely cultural and really trivial, where it can always be changed or updated (unlike religious practices).

P.S. Is this practice universal among Assyrians in the globe anyway? I know we do it here in Australia, or at least in our Nestorian church. And I've seen it practiced among Assyrian Americans. Not sure about the rest or other churches.
Title: Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: mrzurnaci on May 17, 2017, 12:41:55 PM
what? I never heard of this. When some of my family members died, women were there at the funeral and burial...
Title: Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Kelba on May 17, 2017, 03:50:25 PM
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban
Title: Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: mrzurnaci on May 17, 2017, 07:00:39 PM
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban

not only that, I've never heard of it in a cultural way either. When we buried my grandpa, my mom and other relatives like my aunts and my female cousins were there. The Qasha and clergy didn't say anything about it either.
Title: Re: Why is that women are not permitted to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Crocodile Bani on May 17, 2017, 08:14:48 PM
I think it is more traditional than an actual rule that is held, for the above reasons that Neon said.  Most women nowadays know not to go because of traditional reasons but you will still find some women attending the burial, who either don't like the tradition (and can keep their dignity), or don't even know about it.  I myself am undecided.  On one hand, most women can keep their dignity and not cause a commotion and it is unfair to deny them because of the actions of other women.  On the other hand, I have seen Assyrian women going off like fireworks in a regular church service when the "Gazino" song comes up (it always amazed me how they come to church in a great mood and they lose their minds when "Gazino" comes up), yet women are not banned from attending the church.  For me, it is a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Title: Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Neon on May 18, 2017, 04:10:59 AM
what? I never heard of this. When some of my family members died, women were there at the funeral and burial...
I agree with MrZurnaci, I have been to a number of funerals where women were present. Never heard of a ban
Women are allowed at the funeral service held at a church. However, afterwards, only men are allowed to go to the graveyard. Women are only permitted to go the cemetery AFTER the burial process is completed. That process involves a small mass where the priest prays over the deceased at the cemetery, before the coffin is laid down. It is during that procedure, women are not permitted to come. It is customary for only men to attend. Now maybe it is not a huge taboo for a woman to come (or there is no restriction), but it's just not recommended? I don't know, but I never see women there.

I think it is more traditional than an actual rule that is held, for the above reasons that Neon said.  Most women nowadays know not to go because of traditional reasons but you will still find some women attending the burial, who either don't like the tradition (and can keep their dignity), or don't even know about it.  I myself am undecided.  On one hand, most women can keep their dignity and not cause a commotion and it is unfair to deny them because of the actions of other women.  On the other hand, I have seen Assyrian women going off like fireworks in a regular church service when the "Gazino" song comes up (it always amazed me how they come to church in a great mood and they lose their minds when "Gazino" comes up), yet women are not banned from attending the church.  For me, it is a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
Yeah. If the church allows woman's wails and loud laments, what would happen if they "perpetrate" that at the cemetery too? Either way, it's a natural reaction. This is a really unacceptable and inconsistent tradition that takes away basic rights. Are they afraid the women would turn violent and would snatch away the body from their grief and fight the funeral directors? Last time I checked, a man stricken by grief would always be more capable of committing such physical madness, as he's stronger and has testosterone. But I am generalizing. No different to their generalizations of a loud, emotional woman who never stops screaming.

What's "gazino? You mean that "Pushoon Beshlama" threnody that's played for the departed?
Title: Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: mrzurnaci on May 18, 2017, 01:14:57 PM
Women are allowed at the funeral service held at a church. However, afterwards, only men are allowed to go to the graveyard. Women are only permitted to go the cemetery AFTER the burial process is completed. That process involves a small mass where the priest prays over the deceased at the cemetery, before the coffin is laid down. It is during that procedure, women are not permitted to come. It is customary for only men to attend. Now maybe it is not a huge taboo for a woman to come (or there is no restriction), but it's just not recommended? I don't know, but I never see women there.

Never saw this or heard of this. Are you sure you're not mistaking it for "clergy only" ?
Also, my grandfather's burial had the ENTIRE family there with the qasha making the funerary prayers in front of us. I vividly remember it.
I also remember, did you forget about how it's good for Assyrians to have subcultures? :)
subcultures will have bad or good ideas.

Why you care whether women are allowed or not to go to a funeral process idk but it's not a big deal.
Title: Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Neon on May 18, 2017, 08:42:18 PM
Never saw this or heard of this. Are you sure you're not mistaking it for "clergy only" ?
No. There are clergymen and male loved ones during the process.

Quote
Also, my grandfather's burial had the ENTIRE family there with the qasha making the funerary prayers in front of us. I vividly remember it.
Like I said, perhaps there is no actual restriction for a woman to be at the burial; They're just not recommended to be there.

Or maybe you're having false memories, as they're common for childhood experiences? You probably remember a female figure AFTER the funerary prayers, when women are finally permitted to be there (in the afternoon or the next day). And now, since I brought up the subject, your mind copied and pasted a lady in the burial process? ;)

Quote
I also remember, did you forget about how it's good for Assyrians to have subcultures? :)
subcultures will have bad or good ideas.
I thought I said things like that. I used to be for the idea of millets and all that, but you used to be like "we should be united and not be tribal nomads". Lol.

Quote
Why you care whether women are allowed or not to go to a funeral process idk but it's not a big deal.
You said it yourself. It's not a big deal and it's really trivial. So why not let anyone come during the burial process? I'd also complain if men were not allowed.
Title: Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Mr. Tambourine Man on May 18, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
I've never heard of this practice.
Title: Re: Why are Assyrian women not allowed to visit an Assyrian burial?
Post by: Sharukinu on May 19, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
I never heard of this either and doubt this ever happens.