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Offline 7ayruta

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Some questions that need answers
« on: February 06, 2011, 06:24:31 PM »
I'm a bit confused about some things in our language. If i would say 'I'm eating' i would say 'hon (be-)khala'.. But is 'hon' a legit assyrian word? What is the 100% correct way of saying it in lishana 3ateeqa? I was also wondering about if why there is so much fuzz about the letter beth.. Lets take the word 'father' for example.... Aba, awa and ava ... How was this word pronounced at first? Another question i have is: do we have silent letters in lishana 3teeqa? By silent letters i mean like those we in the modern language mark with a line above the letter :)


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Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »
As far as I heard, "aba" became pronounced "awa" "because of lazy pronunciation.
The word was pronounced at first "aba" because it comes from the Akkadian word "abu"
http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/cuneiform.languages/dictionary/dosearch.php

Yes, we have silent letters in kthabanaya ("leshana atiqa"), e.g. "sheta" is from kthabanaya and written with a silent nun. Btw, there is also the word "shna" for "year" in singular.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:42:05 PM by Zawoyo »
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Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 05:28:32 AM »
There are many mistakes in the pronunciation of many Assyrians because of lazy pronunciation or because of Assyrian illiterates,
e.g. many say shahret Mar Zaya but it´s ܫܗܪܐ ܕܡܪܝ ܙܝܐ (shahra dMar Zaya).
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 05:28:32 AM »

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 05:37:20 AM »
Quote
The word was pronounced at first "aba" because it comes from the Akkadian word "abu"

as far as i know no one really knows for sure if the akkadians ended their nouns with a -u ... it could also be an -a like we do today. So it might aswell have been aba  :)

Quote
e.g. many say shahret Mar Zaya but it´s ܫܗܪܐ ܕܡܪܝ ܙܝܐ (shahra dMar Zaya).

i dont really think that this is a point that is to be criticized. I think that the reason why "shara d'mar Zaya" is pronounced "sharet mar zaya" is because of language devolopment... not because of people being illiterates. Just like "Qudsha" is pronounced "Qucha".

But i would really like to know how we  in the lishana 3ateeqa say "i am eating". ... how do you guys say it in the western-dialect?
ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 10:42:44 AM »

But i would really like to know how we  in the lishana 3ateeqa say "i am eating". ... how do you guys say it in the western-dialect?


From what I have learned, I think it's ܐܟܠ ܢܐ or "okhel no" (western pronounciation) and in western dialect it's "kokhal no" so the western form is very close to the kthobonoyo form  :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:45:31 AM by AlexSuryoyo »
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Offline Carlo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 02:13:43 PM »
I'm a bit confused about some things in our language. If i would say 'I'm eating' i would say 'hon (be-)khala'.. But is 'hon' a legit assyrian word? What is the 100% correct way of saying it in lishana 3ateeqa?

ho- is the main root, right (like ho-t (be)khala = "you are eating")? I think it comes from ܗܘ (haw/hoo/(h)oo, "that [m]/he/he is"), but I could be wrong.

In the classical language, it would be what Alex said: akhel (e)na (written ܐܟܠ ܐܢܐ  or ܐܟܠܢܐ), which could also just simply be "I eat." We tend to pronounce this like "akhlin" in the modern Eastern dialect.

If you want to use it in a habitual sense, you could also use ekhol (ܐܟܘܠ), but that could also mean "I will eat," "I was eating," "may I eat," or "let me eat."

I was also wondering about if why there is so much fuzz about the letter beth.. Lets take the word 'father' for example.... Aba, awa and ava ... How was this word pronounced at first?

Most likely, the absolute original pronunciation thousands and thousands of years ago was with a "b," but that could predate Aramaic as being a separate language from, say, Hebrew. Beth is one of the BGDKPT letters that changes its pronunciation depending on where it occurs in a word (a phenomenon found in a lot of languages called "spirantization"), it has nothing to do with laziness and the word for "father" does not come from the Akkadian word but is a sister to the Akkadian word. In the original classical language, it's a "v." Later on, it became a "w."

Another question i have is: do we have silent letters in lishana 3teeqa? By silent letters i mean like those we in the modern language mark with a line above the letter :)

Yes we do, but not as many as we have today. The word for "one" was xadh (m) and xdha (f), with a "d" sound, before it started being pronounced like "xa." In the classical language, there's no line over the dalath to mark it as silent.

Offline Zawoyo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 03:31:48 PM »
From what I have learned, I think it's ܐܟܠ ܢܐ or "okhel no" (western pronounciation) and in western dialect it's "kokhal no" so the western form is very close to the kthobonoyo form  :)

Alex, I don´t know whether "okhel-no" is kthobonoyo, but it´s definitive our todays spoken turoyo dialect.
You say "okhal-no" if you wanna say that you eat in general.
You say "k-okhal-no" if you wanna say that you eat now, in this moment.

The "k-/ko-" in front of the verbs marks the time when you make something now.
okhal-no = I eat / k-okhal-no = I am eating


Btw, how is this time form for -ing endings called in English?
The Rights of Assyrians -UN Declaration
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhDtB12aA8I

The existence of the Assyrian Nation & Nationality is a fact
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=36862.0

̈I´m not interested in helping our ppl because I´m nationalistic, I´m interested because our ppl NEED help!

Offline Nina

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2011, 12:40:17 AM »
ho- is the main root, right (like ho-t (be)khala = "you are eating")? I think it comes from ܗܘ (haw/hoo/(h)oo, "that [m]/he/he is"), but I could be wrong.

In the classical language, it would be what Alex said: akhel (e)na (written ܐܟܠ ܐܢܐ  or ܐܟܠܢܐ), which could also just simply be "I eat." We tend to pronounce this like "akhlin" in the modern Eastern dialect.

*** In Eastern Assyrian, we would say: Bayyen Akhlen / Bayyan Akhlan (waiting to happen) don bikhala (prsent continuous) Khol (is the order form) Khellee (past) and so on.

If you want to use it in a habitual sense, you could also use ekhol (ܐܟܘܠ), but that could also mean "I will eat," "I was eating," "may I eat," or "let me eat."

*** Ekhol does not mean I will eat, it is an order form as we say Khol.

Most likely, the absolute original pronunciation thousands and thousands of years ago was with a "b," but that could predate Aramaic as being a separate language from, say, Hebrew. Beth is one of the BGDKPT letters that changes its pronunciation depending on where it occurs in a word (a phenomenon found in a lot of languages called "spirantization"), it has nothing to do with laziness and the word for "father" does not come from the Akkadian word but is a sister to the Akkadian word. In the original classical language, it's a "v." Later on, it became a "w."

*** The word for father is Aba, it is still written with a Beet (with rokakha) and it is spelled Awa, while Baba (father) stays as is.

Yes we do, but not as many as we have today. The word for "one" was xadh (m) and xdha (f), with a "d" sound, before it started being pronounced like "xa." In the classical language, there's no line over the dalath to mark it as silent.

*** We still write it khad and khda but we do not pronounce the d in modern Assyrian but in classical Assyrian we do pronounce the d.


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Offline Nina

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 12:55:48 AM »
From what I have learned, I think it's ܐܟܠ ܢܐ or "okhel no" (western pronounciation) and in western dialect it's "kokhal no" so the western form is very close to the kthobonoyo form  :)

*** Okhelno in western Assyrian is Akhleena in eastern Assyrian which is used mostly by Assyrians from Iran, it is used in what sounds like a plural form but it is singular, so it is eastern ktawanaya nothing different in that.
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Offline AlexSuryoyo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 06:55:01 AM »
Alex, I don´t know whether "okhel-no" is kthobonoyo, but it´s definitive our todays spoken turoyo dialect.
You say "okhal-no" if you wanna say that you eat in general.
You say "k-okhal-no" if you wanna say that you eat now, in this moment.

The "k-/ko-" in front of the verbs marks the time when you make something now.
okhal-no = I eat / k-okhal-no = I am eating


Btw, how is this time form for -ing endings called in English?

E okhel no yo bu kthobonoyo (kit ferqiye bu zawco u bas, ced kezrat bu turoyo kemina okhal) bas kharbrukh yo okhel no is the basic form u inaqa d'kebcat emat okhel cam wakht mshahlfo, ko mezdat othouto bi kamayto du khabro, lo hzewayli i diloyutho du k  :)

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I AM BETH NAHRIN !!!!

Offline Carlo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 12:40:33 PM »
*** Ekhol does not mean I will eat, it is an order form as we say Khol.

This is my fault for not wording it clearly, but ekhol is the classical language (an imperfect tense, which we don't use anymore), and it does mean "I will eat," among other senses. The word akhol is another usage altogether (the imperative, which we still use to this day but pronounce khol), meaning "eat!," as a command. These forms happen to be spelled the same without vowels in verbs that have alaph as the first root letter (ܐܟܘܠ), but they're different.

To use examples of the same tenses in verbs that don't start with an alaph:

  • "I will kill" = eqTol (ܐܩܛܘܠ), "kill!" = qTol (ܩܛܘܠ)
  • "I will write" = ekhtov (ܐܟܬܘܒ), "write!" = kthov (ܟܬܘܒ)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 03:54:51 PM by Carlo »

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 02:49:56 PM »
so how de we in the modern language say "I am eating" .. i just wan't to be 100 sure now :)
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Offline Carlo

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 02:52:02 PM »
so how de we in the modern language say "I am eating" .. i just wan't to be 100 sure now :)

I would say it like how you said it in your first post, hon (be-)khala, or (be-)khalin.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 06:15:03 PM by Carlo »

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 06:05:42 PM »
iwan bekhala is the correct word, or the right one!.....iwan comes from i am etc etc......."hon" is just a word that everybody used to say to be easy! its more easy to pronounce......my father  says hon bekhala,,but my mother says dun bekhala!!!!   :blink:  :wavetowel:

i didnt really get with the letter beth stuff..but i can say something about it and it is...beth is pronounced beth regular! but when we have a dot under the beth its "w"  from awa..,,,.and when we have a small slide or more like this( ` )above the beth or above any letter ..that means that the letter is tleeqa,,silent!

hope i helped!  :clap:  :bigarmhug:

Offline 7ayruta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 06:52:01 PM »
iwan bekhala is the correct word, or the right one!.....iwan comes from i am etc etc......."hon" is just a word that everybody used to say to be easy! its more easy to pronounce......my father  says hon bekhala,,but my mother says dun bekhala!!!!   :blink:  :wavetowel:

i didnt really get with the letter beth stuff..but i can say something about it and it is...beth is pronounced beth regular! but when we have a dot under the beth its "w"  from awa..,,,.and when we have a small slide or more like this( ` )above the beth or above any letter ..that means that the letter is tleeqa,,silent!

hope i helped!  :clap:  :bigarmhug:

you helped, haha!  :clap:
ܦܠܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
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Offline shekwanta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 09:02:24 AM »
 :loool:   
i hope it was good! u know.... enough!   :bigarmhug:

 :mrgreen:   :angelnot:

Offline xnicksomox

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 05:58:10 PM »
I eat - (Ana) kakhlin, kakhlan
I am eating - eewin b'ikhala or b'ikhala eewin
I will eat - b'akhlin, b'akhlan
I ate - khilly
ܦܪܕܝܣܐ ܗ݇ܘܝܢ ܗ݇ܘܐ ܡܝܘܡܐ ܩܕ݇ܡܝܐ, ܘܦܪܕܣܐ ܒܦܝܫܝܢ ܠܕܪܐ ܐ݇ܚܪܝܐ

ܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܗ݇ܘܲܢ ܗ݇ܘܵܐ ܡܝܘܿܡܵܐ ܩܲܕ݇ܡܵܝܵܐ, ܘܦܹܪܕܹܣܵܐ ܒܦܲܝܫܝܼܢ ܠܕܵܪܵܐ ܐ݇ܚܵܪܵܝܵܐ

Offline Azur

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2017, 04:22:10 AM »
Is YOUKANA first of last name?

Offline Cascade

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2017, 10:01:13 PM »
Hon is a legit Assyrian word.

But we don't use it in our dialect. We say "dun", as in "don bekhala", or "ewin bekhala".
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Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 08:11:29 AM »
Hon is a legit Assyrian word.

But we don't use it in our dialect. We say "dun", as in "don bekhala", or "ewin bekhala".

Both du- and ho- came from words that meant something like here or there but evolved to mean am or have (as in I have eaten). In some dialects, "ho" seems to be applied more often when doing as apposed to being. Although they are often used interchangeably, based on this this trend, it is possible to use them to make the following distinction: hon qṭīla (I have killed) vs dun qṭīla (I am killed).

As for the OP, as delayed as this is, abba = father. This became avva and it remains spelt like this (as it should) though most people incorrectly pronounce it as awa/awwa even though there is no Waw and these sound shifts such as V->W often defile and conflate roots. Avva (/awa/awwa) is often used for priests these days but it does mean father in general despite it's decline in popularity. Hence, we have words like avvaha meaning parent
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 08:12:27 AM by Sharukinu »
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Offline shekwanta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 09:12:16 PM »
Wow. This topic is like super old.
But now that I think about it.. Is there no chance, that "hon" is actually a mixture of "holi" and "iwin" .. or in some dialects a mixture of "dooli" and "iwin", which then will be used as "doon".
I mean it's just an idea u know.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 11:14:46 PM »
Wow. This topic is like super old.
But now that I think about it.. Is there no chance, that "hon" is actually a mixture of "holi" and "iwin" .. or in some dialects a mixture of "dooli" and "iwin", which then will be used as "doon".
I mean it's just an idea u know.
Good observation. Maybe it's a contraction of these words.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 08:11:48 PM »
Good observation. Maybe it's a contraction of these words.
Thanks, Cascade. Yeah la? I mean if we think about it even more, we already have the form "doonwa" which sounds like a mixture of the words "dooli" and "inwa" (past tense of "iwin").. Same goes then for "honwa" (holi + inwa)

E.g. --> "doonwa/honwa wada awa mindi"

Offline Cascade

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 10:56:13 PM »
Thanks, Cascade. Yeah la? I mean if we think about it even more, we already have the form "doonwa" which sounds like a mixture of the words "dooli" and "inwa" (past tense of "iwin").. Same goes then for "honwa" (holi + inwa)

E.g. --> "doonwa/honwa wada awa mindi"
I noticed that Assyrian has contractions like English does - Do not: Don't. Going to: Gonna, etc...

Other examples:

Kh'zee - Zee
B'azen - Azen
Beti ileh Sura - Betileh Sura
Moodit wada - Mod wada
Tama Ila - Tamela

Etc...
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline shekwanta

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 08:31:20 PM »
I noticed that Assyrian has contractions like English does - Do not: Don't. Going to: Gonna, etc...

Other examples:

Kh'zee - Zee
B'azen - Azen
Beti ileh Sura - Betileh Sura
Moodit wada - Mod wada
Tama Ila - Tamela

Etc...
yeah yeah, sure. And the list goes on! We got plenty of those.

Although I must say.. considering "beti ileh soora" and "betileh soora" --> I must say that they might have a small difference in meaning (but maybe it's just me seeing it this way). I feel as if they mean something like:
beti ileh soora  -->  my house is small
betileh soora    -->  it is my house that is small


Hope that makes any/some sense..

Offline Cascade

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Re: Some questions that need answers
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 02:56:29 AM »
Although I must say.. considering "beti ileh soora" and "betileh soora" --> I must say that they might have a small difference in meaning (but maybe it's just me seeing it this way). I feel as if they mean something like:
beti ileh soora  -->  my house is small
betileh soora    -->  it is my house that is small


Hope that makes any/some sense..
Yeah, that's true. I noticed that too. ;)

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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