Author Topic: There seems to be some confusion...  (Read 30698 times)

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Offline babylonx

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There seems to be some confusion...
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2006, 08:20:14 PM »
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
sickening!
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: vanity_fair
No, because with the personal religious experiences I’ve had I believe that there is a God.  But I certainly don’t pronounce judgement on those who are not sure.


Ok, lets get our facts straight. Please tell me everything you believe so I dont get confused and accidently judge/label you.




ive noticed often that christians are the only ones who try to push their beliefs on others...why is that??

some of u really need to start practicing what u preach...


You don't know what I'm talking about or anything about the topic, please keep your comments to yourself and stay out! I'm sure vanity can speak for herself!

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2006, 08:31:26 PM »
When we put swords to infidels necks then were forcing people to convert, until then, were just preaching! :mrgreen: Just like vanity_fair is preaching Agnosticism with this thread!

Offline SlitUrAnkles

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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2006, 08:33:32 PM »
wow...its a public forum u want privacy then take it to pm...what makes u an expert on what i know or dont know? mkhee fara o la mankhipla janokh bush zoda....
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
sickening!
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: vanity_fair
No, because with the personal religious experiences I’ve had I believe that there is a God.  But I certainly don’t pronounce judgement on those who are not sure.


Ok, lets get our facts straight. Please tell me everything you believe so I dont get confused and accidently judge/label you.




ive noticed often that christians are the only ones who try to push their beliefs on others...why is that??

some of u really need to start practicing what u preach...


You don't know what I'm talking about or anything about the topic, please keep your comments to yourself and stay out! I'm sure vanity can speak for herself!

Offline SlitUrAnkles

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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2006, 08:36:41 PM »
thats all fine and dandy, but dont expect others to reject them as well.  u believe what u want, and they believe what they want.  its called having a choice...
Quote from: Senalko
As christians, We have to behold our beleiefs, Which is soly based on the Biblical Fact that Jesus Christ is the only Savior of this world, Hence it makes us Strongly Reject all other religions and beleief Practices, Which then cuases some offence to people here becuase of it....

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2006, 09:16:28 PM »
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
thats all fine and dandy, but dont expect others to reject them as well.  u believe what u want, and they believe what they want.  its called having a choice...
Quote from: Senalko
As christians, We have to behold our beleiefs, Which is soly based on the Biblical Fact that Jesus Christ is the only Savior of this world, Hence it makes us Strongly Reject all other religions and beleief Practices, Which then cuases some offence to people here becuase of it....


Yes! And we have the choice to preach as much as we want!

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2006, 09:51:26 PM »
Quote from: babylonx
When we put swords to infidels necks then were forcing people to convert, until then, were just preaching! :mrgreen: Just like vanity_fair is preaching Agnosticism with this thread!


How am I "preaching agnosticism"?  does this article in any way try to convince the reader to abandon their Christian beliefs and become agnostics?  Have I myself at any point said that agnosticism is the way to be and all other belief systems are false?  I didn’t think so.  This was meant to explain what agnosticism is, since clearly you didn't and still don't understand the concept.  If I'm preaching anything, it's tolerance.  You are the most graceless piece of turd I’ve ever had the displeasure of communicating with.

Quote from: Moja Moja
Why is everything refered to as a judgement if it is a mere pointing out of facts.

If I tell Britney Spears that she is blonde, am I judging her or am I simply pointing out a fact?  Let's not confuse potatoes with airports here please!


Oh, I’m so disappointed in this statement.  If Babylonx and Senalko were to say “I believe that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind,” I wouldn’t argue with them in the slightest.  It’s their opinion, their belief, and that makes it a fact for them. That’s all fine.

However, instead of simply sharing their views, they choose to criticise anyone and everyone who has beliefs contradictory to their own.  Saying that agnostics “decide what GOD should be like to suit your own needs or life Styles” (said by Senalko) is not a fact in any way, shape or form.  It is an assumption made by a person of obviously orthodox beliefs based on no evidence and no insight whatsoever.  It is a judgement on agnostics which is both inaccurate and unfair.  

What does Senalko mean when he says that an agnostics manipulates religious doctrine (i.e. decides what God should be like) in order to “suite [their] own needs and lifestyles”?  He’s saying that an agnostic leads a life that in every way contradicts what God asks of people according to the Christian scriptures.  He is saying an agnostic is only questioning the existence of God so he can freely rape, pillage, and murder.  How is THAT a fact?  How is that even logical?  Both Babylonx and Senalko are prone to base their arguments on assumptions and delusions rather than facts; not only in this thread, but in most of the arguments I’ve read from them on this forum.  I personally can’t respect people who think that without an orthodox belief in God people will commit every evil act imaginable.

Christianity, in the way I generally interpret it, promotes certain values:
- Kindness
- Generosity
- Compassion
- Empathy

Instead of demonstrating any of these qualities, these people simply rely on scripture to promote hate and intolerance.  I’ve never understood how people like this can reconcile being so called “good Christians” when they’re such hateful people.  And don’t try and tell me that they’re not hateful because I’ve read their opinions on Muslims, Jews, and homosexuality (just to name a few) and they’ve expressed nothing BUT hatred.  Worse still, they’ve used the bible and the gospels to justify their hate.  That’s a sin worse than any other because above all, I believe that God would promote love.

Offline John_5_24

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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2006, 10:23:38 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
 
Christianity, in the way I generally interpret it, promotes certain values:
- Kindness
- Generosity
- Compassion
- Empathy

Instead of demonstrating any of these qualities, these people simply rely on scripture to promote hate and intolerance.  I’ve never understood how people like this can reconcile being so called “good Christians” when they’re such hateful people.  And don’t try and tell me that they’re not hateful because I’ve read their opinions on Muslims, Jews, and homosexuality (just to name a few) and they’ve expressed nothing BUT hatred.  Worse still, they’ve used the bible and the gospels to justify their hate.  That’s a sin worse than any other because above all, I believe that God would promote love.


I will certainly not defend Babylon's comments.  While I agree with many of them, he knows that I disagree with the manner in which he posts.  

Now, to your last paragraph there, do you really believe that Jesus only preached love??  He preached more on Hell then he did Heaven.  The Pharisees and Scribes (Jews) were referred to as a "brood of vipors".  Doesn't sound to loving to me.  You like to accentuate God's love over his other attributes such as jealousy and justice.  Don't be so quick to only concentrate on the attributes of God which you find appealing, or you will all to soon discover the others.

God is love to those who believe in Christ, not to all.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2006, 10:29:41 PM »
Quote from: John_5_24

I will certainly not defend Babylon's comments.  While I agree with many of them, he knows that I disagree with the manner in which he posts.  

Now, to your last paragraph there, do you really believe that Jesus only preached love??  He preached more on Hell then he did Heaven.  The Pharisees and Scribes (Jews) were referred to as a "brood of vipors".  Doesn't sound to loving to me.  You like to accentuate God's love over his other attributes such as jealousy and justice.  Don't be so quick to only concentrate on the attributes of God which you find appealing, or you will all to soon discover the others.

God is love to those who believe in Christ, not to all.


I believe that the ultimate message of religion is love.  That’s not naïve, it’s just what I believe, and it’s not based on what I’ve read in the gospels, even though (or maybe because) I've studied them intensely.  God is love to all people.  Unlike humans, I don't think his love has such arbitrary limits.  According to YOUR beliefs, God created ALL people and I believe he loves ALL people regardless.

Offline SlitUrAnkles

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« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2006, 10:35:06 PM »
so beautifully written.  vanity  :bigarmhug: i agree with u one hundred percent...on EVERYTHING written here.
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx
When we put swords to infidels necks then were forcing people to convert, until then, were just preaching! :mrgreen: Just like vanity_fair is preaching Agnosticism with this thread!


How am I "preaching agnosticism"?  does this article in any way try to convince the reader to abandon their Christian beliefs and become agnostics?  Have I myself at any point said that agnosticism is the way to be and all other belief systems are false?  I didn’t think so.  This was meant to explain what agnosticism is, since clearly you didn't and still don't understand the concept.  If I'm preaching anything, it's tolerance.  You are the most graceless piece of turd I’ve ever had the displeasure of communicating with.

Quote from: Moja Moja
Why is everything refered to as a judgement if it is a mere pointing out of facts.

If I tell Britney Spears that she is blonde, am I judging her or am I simply pointing out a fact?  Let's not confuse potatoes with airports here please!


Oh, I’m so disappointed in this statement.  If Babylonx and Senalko were to say “I believe that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind,” I wouldn’t argue with them in the slightest.  It’s their opinion, their belief, and that makes it a fact for them. That’s all fine.

However, instead of simply sharing their views, they choose to criticise anyone and everyone who has beliefs contradictory to their own.  Saying that agnostics “decide what GOD should be like to suit your own needs or life Styles” (said by Senalko) is not a fact in any way, shape or form.  It is an assumption made by a person of obviously orthodox beliefs based on no evidence and no insight whatsoever.  It is a judgement on agnostics which is both inaccurate and unfair.  

What does Senalko mean when he says that an agnostics manipulates religious doctrine (i.e. decides what God should be like) in order to “suite [their] own needs and lifestyles”?  He’s saying that an agnostic leads a life that in every way contradicts what God asks of people according to the Christian scriptures.  He is saying an agnostic is only questioning the existence of God so he can freely rape, pillage, and murder.  How is THAT a fact?  How is that even logical?  Both Babylonx and Senalko are prone to base their arguments on assumptions and delusions rather than facts; not only in this thread, but in most of the arguments I’ve read from them on this forum.  I personally can’t respect people who think that without an orthodox belief in God people will commit every evil act imaginable.

Christianity, in the way I generally interpret it, promotes certain values:
- Kindness
- Generosity
- Compassion
- Empathy

Instead of demonstrating any of these qualities, these people simply rely on scripture to promote hate and intolerance.  I’ve never understood how people like this can reconcile being so called “good Christians” when they’re such hateful people.  And don’t try and tell me that they’re not hateful because I’ve read their opinions on Muslims, Jews, and homosexuality (just to name a few) and they’ve expressed nothing BUT hatred.  Worse still, they’ve used the bible and the gospels to justify their hate.  That’s a sin worse than any other because above all, I believe that God would promote love.

Offline John_5_24

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« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2006, 10:38:47 PM »
The limits I set on God's love are hardly arbitrary, but are founded in Scripture.  God did create all people, but that doesn't mean he created all to love them all.  He has a purpose.  If God loves all people, then why did God hate Esau before he did anything good or bad?  Before he was even born?  (Romans 9:9-13)  Why does God hate evildoers?  (Psalm 5:5)

Again, I do not define the boundaries of God's love, I discern them from Scripture.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2006, 10:43:37 PM »
John_5_24, I have my own issues with the gospels, and don't necessarily believe everything in them.  But my original point still stands.  People should not use the bible to promote hate in ANY way.

SlitUrAnkles - Thanks!  It's good to know I'm not alone in this opinion on the forum.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2006, 10:44:47 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx
When we put swords to infidels necks then were forcing people to convert, until then, were just preaching! :mrgreen: Just like vanity_fair is preaching Agnosticism with this thread!


How am I "preaching agnosticism"?  does this article in any way try to convince the reader to abandon their Christian beliefs and become agnostics?  Have I myself at any point said that agnosticism is the way to be and all other belief systems are false?  I didn’t think so.  This was meant to explain what agnosticism is, since clearly you didn't and still don't understand the concept.  If I'm preaching anything, it's tolerance.  You are the most graceless piece of turd I’ve ever had the displeasure of communicating with.

Quote from: Moja Moja
Why is everything refered to as a judgement if it is a mere pointing out of facts.

If I tell Britney Spears that she is blonde, am I judging her or am I simply pointing out a fact?  Let's not confuse potatoes with airports here please!


Oh, I’m so disappointed in this statement.  If Babylonx and Senalko were to say “I believe that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind,” I wouldn’t argue with them in the slightest.  It’s their opinion, their belief, and that makes it a fact for them. That’s all fine.

However, instead of simply sharing their views, they choose to criticise anyone and everyone who has beliefs contradictory to their own.  Saying that agnostics “decide what GOD should be like to suit your own needs or life Styles” (said by Senalko) is not a fact in any way, shape or form.  It is an assumption made by a person of obviously orthodox beliefs based on no evidence and no insight whatsoever.  It is a judgement on agnostics which is both inaccurate and unfair.  

What does Senalko mean when he says that an agnostics manipulates religious doctrine (i.e. decides what God should be like) in order to “suite [their] own needs and lifestyles”?  He’s saying that an agnostic leads a life that in every way contradicts what God asks of people according to the Christian scriptures.  He is saying an agnostic is only questioning the existence of God so he can freely rape, pillage, and murder.  How is THAT a fact?  How is that even logical?  Both Babylonx and Senalko are prone to base their arguments on assumptions and delusions rather than facts; not only in this thread, but in most of the arguments I’ve read from them on this forum.  I personally can’t respect people who think that without an orthodox belief in God people will commit every evil act imaginable.

Christianity, in the way I generally interpret it, promotes certain values:
- Kindness
- Generosity
- Compassion
- Empathy

Instead of demonstrating any of these qualities, these people simply rely on scripture to promote hate and intolerance.  I’ve never understood how people like this can reconcile being so called “good Christians” when they’re such hateful people.  And don’t try and tell me that they’re not hateful because I’ve read their opinions on Muslims, Jews, and homosexuality (just to name a few) and they’ve expressed nothing BUT hatred.  Worse still, they’ve used the bible and the gospels to justify their hate.  That’s a sin worse than any other because above all, I believe that God would promote love.


You sound like you hate me SO much that you probably have nightmares about me and when you hear the word baby you probably become miserable! It's ok I love you too! :bigarmhug:

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2006, 10:47:54 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
According to YOUR beliefs, God created ALL people and I believe he loves ALL people regardless.


So he loves them all so much that he is going to throw them into hell to burn not for a while until they repent, but eternally! Ok is your God the wizard of OZ or what?

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2006, 10:48:40 PM »
Quote from: babylonx

You sound like you hate me SO much that you probably have nightmares about me and when you hear the word baby you probably become miserable! It's ok I love you too! :bigarmhug:


Your arrogance and stupidity apparently have no bounds.  Well, good for you.  I know you get away with a LOT of crap on this forum, but I’m just glad that the general public outside the AVN community would appose you to the end.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2006, 10:49:12 PM »
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
so beautifully written.  vanity  :bigarmhug: i agree with u one hundred percent...on EVERYTHING written here.
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx
When we put swords to infidels necks then were forcing people to convert, until then, were just preaching! :mrgreen: Just like vanity_fair is preaching Agnosticism with this thread!


How am I "preaching agnosticism"?  does this article in any way try to convince the reader to abandon their Christian beliefs and become agnostics?  Have I myself at any point said that agnosticism is the way to be and all other belief systems are false?  I didn’t think so.  This was meant to explain what agnosticism is, since clearly you didn't and still don't understand the concept.  If I'm preaching anything, it's tolerance.  You are the most graceless piece of turd I’ve ever had the displeasure of communicating with.

Quote from: Moja Moja
Why is everything refered to as a judgement if it is a mere pointing out of facts.

If I tell Britney Spears that she is blonde, am I judging her or am I simply pointing out a fact?  Let's not confuse potatoes with airports here please!


Oh, I’m so disappointed in this statement.  If Babylonx and Senalko were to say “I believe that God exists and that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind,” I wouldn’t argue with them in the slightest.  It’s their opinion, their belief, and that makes it a fact for them. That’s all fine.

However, instead of simply sharing their views, they choose to criticise anyone and everyone who has beliefs contradictory to their own.  Saying that agnostics “decide what GOD should be like to suit your own needs or life Styles” (said by Senalko) is not a fact in any way, shape or form.  It is an assumption made by a person of obviously orthodox beliefs based on no evidence and no insight whatsoever.  It is a judgement on agnostics which is both inaccurate and unfair.  

What does Senalko mean when he says that an agnostics manipulates religious doctrine (i.e. decides what God should be like) in order to “suite [their] own needs and lifestyles”?  He’s saying that an agnostic leads a life that in every way contradicts what God asks of people according to the Christian scriptures.  He is saying an agnostic is only questioning the existence of God so he can freely rape, pillage, and murder.  How is THAT a fact?  How is that even logical?  Both Babylonx and Senalko are prone to base their arguments on assumptions and delusions rather than facts; not only in this thread, but in most of the arguments I’ve read from them on this forum.  I personally can’t respect people who think that without an orthodox belief in God people will commit every evil act imaginable.

Christianity, in the way I generally interpret it, promotes certain values:
- Kindness
- Generosity
- Compassion
- Empathy

Instead of demonstrating any of these qualities, these people simply rely on scripture to promote hate and intolerance.  I’ve never understood how people like this can reconcile being so called “good Christians” when they’re such hateful people.  And don’t try and tell me that they’re not hateful because I’ve read their opinions on Muslims, Jews, and homosexuality (just to name a few) and they’ve expressed nothing BUT hatred.  Worse still, they’ve used the bible and the gospels to justify their hate.  That’s a sin worse than any other because above all, I believe that God would promote love.


Like they say, it aint over till the fat lady sings....

Offline John_5_24

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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2006, 10:50:15 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
John_5_24, I have my own issues with the gospels, and don't necessarily believe everything in them.  But my original point still stands.  People should not use the bible to promote hate in ANY way.

SlitUrAnkles - Thanks!  It's good to know I'm not alone in this opinion on the forum.


Basic Question for you Vanity.  Is the Bible itself hateful?  I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2006, 10:51:03 PM »
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: vanity_fair
According to YOUR beliefs, God created ALL people and I believe he loves ALL people regardless.


So he loves them all so much that he is going to throw them into hell to burn not for a while until they repent, but eternally! Ok is your God the wizard of OZ or what?


My God is nicer than your God, I guess.  I don't mind.  From what I’ve gathered from your general attitude and state of mind, believing in your God required arrogance, ignorance, and a huge dash of generally asinine opinions.

Offline SlitUrAnkles

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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2006, 10:51:03 PM »
:huh: um ok...ur how old?

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2006, 10:51:20 PM »
Quote from: John_5_24
The limits I set on God's love are hardly arbitrary, but are founded in Scripture.  God did create all people, but that doesn't mean he created all to love them all.  He has a purpose.  If God loves all people, then why did God hate Esau before he did anything good or bad?  Before he was even born?  (Romans 9:9-13)  Why does God hate evildoers?  (Psalm 5:5)

Again, I do not define the boundaries of God's love, I discern them from Scripture.


Your wrong and shes right!
Remember how much love he showed to Sodom and Gomorrah while burning them alive?
Or the people who lived before the flood? Oh, he was really kind to them, he personally taught them how to swim....

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2006, 10:51:59 PM »
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
:huh: um ok...ur how old?


It's not his age.  It's his IQ.  Very, very low.  I don't know how he dresses himself in the morning.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2006, 10:52:31 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
John_5_24, I have my own issues with the gospels, and don't necessarily believe everything in them.  But my original point still stands.  People should not use the bible to promote hate in ANY way.

SlitUrAnkles - Thanks!  It's good to know I'm not alone in this opinion on the forum.


Whos promoting hate? I love all of you guys, this is a forum, its not like I hate you in real life..... :ban:

Offline SlitUrAnkles

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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2006, 10:52:43 PM »
god is love

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2006, 10:54:46 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx

You sound like you hate me SO much that you probably have nightmares about me and when you hear the word baby you probably become miserable! It's ok I love you too! :bigarmhug:


Your arrogance and stupidity apparently have no bounds.  Well, good for you.  I know you get away with a LOT of crap on this forum, but I’m just glad that the general public outside the AVN community would appose you to the end.


What crap do I get away with? Just cause I dont agree with you it means stupid and arrogant? So your studying engineering and now you think your mohammad and what you say is divine knowledge from God?

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2006, 10:58:29 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: vanity_fair
According to YOUR beliefs, God created ALL people and I believe he loves ALL people regardless.


So he loves them all so much that he is going to throw them into hell to burn not for a while until they repent, but eternally! Ok is your God the wizard of OZ or what?


My God is nicer than your God, I guess.  I don't mind.  From what I’ve gathered from your general attitude and state of mind, believing in your God required arrogance, ignorance, and a huge dash of generally asinine opinions.


Believing in my God requires a bible for you to read and understand....
Believing in your God requires 7 dwarves, a genie lamp, a frog prince and an ending that says they lived happily ever after....

Offline John_5_24

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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2006, 10:59:21 PM »
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
god is love

God is just.  God is jealous.  God is mercy.  God is wise.  God is eternal.  God is omnipotent.  God is knowledge.  God is merciful.  God is truthful.  God is blessed.  God is holy.  God is wise.  God is omnipresent.  Do I need to continue?

Saying a catch phrase means nothing.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2006, 11:00:22 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
:huh: um ok...ur how old?


It's not his age.  It's his IQ.  Very, very low.  I don't know how he dresses himself in the morning.


Again, just cause I don't agree with you, automaticly you'll try to attack me personally and assume I'm uneducated with a low IQ! Why don't you make fun of my shiny head and shiny car too like Mjay does....go ahead.....

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2006, 11:02:49 PM »
Quote from: babylonx

What crap do I get away with? Just cause I dont agree with you it means stupid and arrogant? So your studying engineering and now you think your mohammad and what you say is divine knowledge from God?


It’s not the fact that you disagree with me that makes you stupid and arrogant.  I love a debate.  I have debates about issues like this with people I respect and am proud to call friends, and they’re welcomed to disagree with me.

What do you get away with? Your little "Interview with an agnostic," for one.  When people agree with you and encourage you, THAT'S called getting away with crap.  Again, the majority of your opinions would be shot down if you were to state them openly outside of AVN to the general public.  Now by everyone, of course.  There’s always going to be a homophobic, anti-Semitic racists who thinks you’re speaking the word of God.  As for me, I think you’re more of less talking out of your ass.

And I have no idea what your last sentence was suppose to mean. It makes no sense.

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2006, 11:05:53 PM »
Quote from: John_5_24
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
god is love

God is just.  God is jealous.  God is mercy.  God is wise.  God is eternal.  God is omnipotent.  God is knowledge.  God is merciful.  God is truthful.  God is blessed.  God is holy.  God is wise.  God is omnipresent.  Do I need to continue?

Saying a catch phrase means nothing.


God, the all powerful, all knowing, all loving being would not hate people simply because they don’t believe in him.  That would be juvenile and petty; those are human qualities that people project onto God.  

If you want to say that God hates evil, then fine.  God would hate the holocaust, gay bashings and discrimination.

Offline John_5_24

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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2006, 11:07:35 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: John_5_24
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
god is love

God is just.  God is jealous.  God is mercy.  God is wise.  God is eternal.  God is omnipotent.  God is knowledge.  God is merciful.  God is truthful.  God is blessed.  God is holy.  God is wise.  God is omnipresent.  Do I need to continue?

Saying a catch phrase means nothing.


God, the all powerful, all knowing, all loving being would not hate people simply because they don’t believe in him.  That would be juvenile and petty; those are human qualities that people project onto God.  

If you want to say that God hates evil, then fine.  God would hate the holocaust, gay bashings and discrimination.


Funny how you say I am projecting human qualities on God when you want to limit Him to all loving.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2006, 11:08:19 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: babylonx

What crap do I get away with? Just cause I dont agree with you it means stupid and arrogant? So your studying engineering and now you think your mohammad and what you say is divine knowledge from God?


It’s not the fact that you disagree with me that makes you stupid and arrogant.  I love a debate.  I have debates about issues like this with people I respect and am proud to call friends, and they’re welcomed to disagree with me.

What do you get away with? Your little "Interview with an agnostic," for one.  When people agree with you and encourage you, THAT'S called getting away with crap.  Again, the majority of your opinions would be shot down if you were to state them openly outside of AVN to the general public.  Now by everyone, of course.  There’s always going to be a homophobic, anti-Semitic racists who thinks you’re speaking the word of God.  As for me, I think you’re more of less talking out of your ass.

And I have no idea what your last sentence was suppose to mean. It makes no sense.


Oh Exuse me! I didnt even know who you are. How many times have you made smart ass comments just to piss me off whenever I try to say something? Go check my evolution and big bang threads, every now and then you just pop up and post a silly comment just to piss me off and try to attack me. I try to debate people outside AVN, but no one knows how to answer me! Unfortunately you guys are the only ones with some descent education who can properly answer my arguements. As for the talking out of my ass, everything I say I have read in the bible. I'm not anti-semetic since I'm semetic myself, but damn right I'm homophobic!

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2006, 11:11:05 PM »
Quote from: vanity_fair
Quote from: John_5_24
Quote from: SlitUrAnkles
god is love

God is just.  God is jealous.  God is mercy.  God is wise.  God is eternal.  God is omnipotent.  God is knowledge.  God is merciful.  God is truthful.  God is blessed.  God is holy.  God is wise.  God is omnipresent.  Do I need to continue?

Saying a catch phrase means nothing.


God, the all powerful, all knowing, all loving being would not hate people simply because they don’t believe in him.  That would be juvenile and petty; those are human qualities that people project onto God.  

If you want to say that God hates evil, then fine.  God would hate the holocaust, gay bashings and discrimination.


PLEASE provide this chick with some scriptures to shut her up! God killed men, women and children just because they didn't believe in him. What are you talking about? He created us, he can end us if he wants! If I draw a picture, I have every right to do whatever I feel like to it, I CREATED IT!

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2006, 12:10:20 AM »
Quote from: Senalko


Claiming that my beleifs are based on No evidence nor insight is very Naive....Unless you have done some homework, both historically and religously, you should not be making such blind comments.. Comments liek these make Christrian Scholars who dedicated all their lives to find the truth look silly... and i can assure you, they are NOT...

the evidence Are all there in front YOU....GOD's intention for humanity was never to lead us in Blind faith... he gave us all we need to know and See, But such our Wickdness and evil desires, that We Demand that we See him in front of our eyes before we start beleieving....

As for Claiming Agnostics refuse to beleieve to suit their own needs, YES that is my own opinion and in no means i consider it a Fact.... everyone is different.... I made it as a General comment becuase many ahtiests and Agnostics fall in that Category..



Clearly, my statement that you makes assumptions without evidence and insight referred to your opinion of agnostics.  I don’t know exactly HOW you misunderstood me, but you did.  You have no evidence or insight that those who are agnostic or atheists are more likely to fall into sin.  In fact, you’re just plain wrong on that point.  Humans of every faith and system of belief commit evil, and there’s no way you can prove that being an agnostic or atheists makes you more likely to do so.



Quote from: Senalko
That is a very Serious Crime you have committed there... Quoting me for something i have never Said.... Really Terrible way of putting your arguments up Vanity... Very Disapoiniting... if anything, its YOU who's making Wild Assumptions that have no basis what so ever...

Please go back and find me one Sentence in which i Claimed Agonistics do what they do in order for them to " Rape, Pillage and murder "

I beg you next time to very carefully read and understand, without starting to Quote people for things they never said


You said:

Quote from: Senalko

YOU Cant decide what GOD should be like to suit your own needs or life Styles....
 

Notice how I only have quote marks around what you said.  You don’t have to say something to imply it.  And thanks, but my reading comprehension skills are fine.  I understood exactly what you meant.  You’re saying anyone who questions Christianity and God in any way is doing so in order to peruse a lifestyle contrary to the one prescribed by Christian scripture.  I used rape, pillage and murder as the most extreme examples of this opinion.  And look at it again because I didn’t quote them as something you said.   Don’t make it sound like I didn’t understand what you were saying.  Like I said, my reading comprehension skills are stellar.  


 
Quote from: Senalko

How did you come to the Conclusion that our arguments are based on Assumptions and Delusions?

if anything, you have proved that you seriously lack any historical knoweledge nor understanding for you to be even discussing these topics.....

The bible is my main source of Evidence, and NO its not an assumption.. its a Real book Written and inspired by GOD, a book that shapes our lives..... If your Accusing Me of having no facts what so ever, then your simply Condemning all of Chrisitianty, including Jesus Christ and all his followers....

My Facts are historically Proven, but its something hard for you to Accept cuase unless someone comes and puts the evidence in front of you, YOU wont beleieve it...
 
 

First, sing the bible and only the bible is a dangerous thing in this world.  A lot of evil has come from people who listen to nothing but the bible.  I’m no saying you’ll go burning heretics, but you’ll certainly horde a lot of hate for people who don’t deserve it.  

Second, you DO use assumptions and delusions.  You just claimed that anyone not believing in Christianity and God will be more likely to commit evil.  Where did you get that “fact.”  It’s an assumption.  It’s wrong.  

Third, I certainly don’t think I’m the ultimate authority on religious or historical knowledge, but I don’t think I’ve in any way displayed ignorance of these subjects.  I don’t know why I’m even defending myself on this point since it’s more or less irrelevant.  I guess it’s my vanity.

You’ve clearly never looked at the gospels historically and objectively.  If you had, you wouldn’t even assert such things.






Quote from: Senalko

Once Again, your Assuming and putting words into our mouths...Just a nice reminder, i am Not babylon and i dont stand for what he says or beleieves in.... I stand for one thing and only thing- Jesus christ ..

As for your above comment, if it makes u feel better, Evil Acts Can be commited by all humanity, Christian or non Christian.... i have never made such assumption and once again i beg u to find for me anywhere on this forum where i have said that....

We live in a Corupt World full of Evilness... People will Sin , regardless of who they are or what they beleieve in....Until the day jesus returns, the earth will not improve but get Worse....We all sin, not becuase we are Evil creatures but becuase we simply Live where Evil Exists.....

My own dad is a passionate Athiest but i cant remeber him murdering anyone or doing an Evil Act of the nature you Claim....
 
 

I already took care of this issue earlier.   You’re the one claiming that agnostics and atheists are more likely to do evil, not me.  Looks like you’re going to have to reconcile your opinion of the agnostic and atheist ethical and moral code to the facts of life.  You’re saying that these people have a flimsy moral and ethical system.  I disagree with you on that point, as I’ve already mentioned.  You’re also now saying that people commit evil because we live in an evil world.  Those seem like contradictory claims to me, but maybe you have them reconciled with each other somehow.  I’m pretty much done with this issue now because I don’t think we’re understanding each other’s arguments.

Quote from: Senalko
  finally, When you put across a point or an opinion, such as that our Berleiefs are based on nothing, Try to back it up with evidence of your own, rathar than leave yourself exposed to these sort of uncalled comments....
 

A lot of both what you and babylonx say is based on assumptions.  I certainly don’t lack evidence.  There’s plenty of it on this thread as well as your other assertions on this forum.  Try, just one time, to give your opinion on a subject without using the “because God says so in the bible” method.  Oh, and I didn’t quote that because you said it.  I quoted it because I’m trying to distinguish it from the rest of my sentence.



Quote from: Senalko
   And that is Truly what we are... and how we live our Lives....But in saying that, Would all of these beleiefs that Jesus has taught us stand to have any meaning if We were to accept and tolerate Other religions or faiths in which jesus himself Rebuked and condemended?

We would be just like the hypocrites who pretend that they do what they beleieve in
 

I’m glad you live in accordance to those concepts.  But keep in mind, so do a lot of agnostics and atheists.  So do many Muslims and Jews.   Kindness isn’t a strictly Christian characteristic.  As a Christian, the teachings the gospels lay out should have meaning regardless of other religions.  And as for the passages in the gospel where Jesus’ character is shown to be intolerant:  whether they are historically accurate or not, I’m going to choose to NOT be intolerant.  This is why basing your whole being in the bible is dangerous.  The idea that Jesus displayed signs of intolerance and therefore expects me to be intolerant is ridiculous to me.  I can’t accept it.


Quote from: Senalko
  Again, that is a Wild Assumption that is purly of your own Fictional mind....Scripture is used to show people the truth, and lead them into the truth... i Dont use it to hate people or preach hate... Its your own insecurity of your own beleiefs that Drives u to beleieve that We are haters when in fact We are full of LOVE and tolerance....

You are making the same mistakes alot of non christians do....YOU feel insulted personally when in fact I dont and never personally insult u nor disrepect you in any way or shape, but rathar i Disrespect beleiefs and practices that Dishonour my GOD and puts him to shame.....

I would never attack u personally but i will always attack the Argument  
 

Attacking someone’s beliefs is an attack on them, I think.  I don’t understand how you can distinguish the two.  If someone was as critical of your Christian beliefs as you are to others’ beliefs, I have no doubt you would take it as a personal attack.  It’s true that my mind is creative, but not in the way you think.  I can assure you that my consideration of what you say on the forum is in no way clouded by an overactive imagination.  So far from what I’ve read from you, I can’t say that you’re as blatantly hateful as some others.  Remember that aside from the parts mentioning a specific name, what I wrote is meant to be applied to a more general group.  No, I’m not back-pedalling.  I’ve met many so called Christians who use the bible to justify their own faulty opinions.  In your case, you think that because the gospels report Jesus’ intolerance, that gives you a green light to be intolerant.  I’m guessing you’re not too fond of other religions, and think they’re all false.  Actually, that’s not a guess.  You’ve said that several times.  So according to you, you should be allowed to judge and condemn Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and every other religions that’s not Christian, even if they are good people.  Any disrespect for their beliefs is a disrespect to THEM.  I honestly don’t believed that disrespecting someone’s beliefs will not be taken personally.
 

Quote from: Senalko
 
Another Flase Claim.... if this is hateful to you, Then you would have to say that Jesus himself was a hateful man who hated the jews and the muslems and homosexual......

Hate is a word of your own invension....YOU seriously have a bad habit of speaking on behalf of people, and coming up with Wild Assumptions and very poor judgments....

As a Christian, I love and respect every muslem, jew and homosexual indivuial, But i will never respect what they practice becuase its a great insult to GOD to be accepting wicked practices that he himself has Warned us about....

At the end of the day, YOUR not arguing with me.. your Arguing with Jesus and all of his teachings... becuase if u view our passion for Christ as hateful, then you simply would View the same opinion of Christ himself....
 

I’ve always been taught that peaking up for people who can’t speak up for themselves is a virtue.  Since there are no Jews, Muslims, and homosexuals here to defend themselves against some of the opinions expressed on this forum, then I’ll do it myself.  And I see no “wild assumption” that I’ve stated.  Everything I’ve said has been inferred based on what you and Babylonx have said.  I don’t make thing up.  I read something, assess it, comprehend it, and infer what you mean by it.  Your views on agnostic and atheistic morality is an example.  But I’m repeating myself.

For someone who thinks I lack historical and religious knowledge, you’re not demonstrating much yourself.  In the gospels, Jesus didn’t hate Jews.  He hated those in authority who would not live in accordance to the ideal laws of Judaism.  Jesus himself was Jewish as were his disciples and almost everyone he knew.  He didn’t hate Jews.

Secondly, how can Jesus have hated Muslims?  Islam didn’t even exist in his time.

In all the gospels in the canon, there isn’t as ingle reference to homosexuality.  If you’re claiming that he wouldn’t like gay people because it was called sinful in the Old Testament, that would make a better argument.  He himself, however, never condemned homosexuality.  Now once.  I would think that if it was a huge issue for Jesus personally, the gospel writes would have mentioned it at least once.  For this issue, I also recommend you read something called the secret gospel of Mark.  It is said to have been written by the author of the canonical gospel of Mark but was removed by early church fathers (I believe some time in the 2nd century) because of it’s highly homo-social interpretation.  If you’re going to invest so much faith in the gospels as literal, then you should accept this one too, and all the Gnostic gospels for that matter.  The secret gospel of Mark, however, has even more authority because it was written by the same person who wrote the gospel of Mark.

I hate tearing up posts like this but I wanted to address all our concerns.

Offline vanity_fair

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« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2006, 12:21:03 AM »
Quote from: babylonx

Oh Exuse me! I didnt even know who you are. How many times have you made smart ass comments just to piss me off whenever I try to say something? Go check my evolution and big bang threads, every now and then you just pop up and post a silly comment just to piss me off and try to attack me. I try to debate people outside AVN, but no one knows how to answer me! Unfortunately you guys are the only ones with some descent education who can properly answer my arguements. As for the talking out of my ass, everything I say I have read in the bible. I'm not anti-semetic since I'm semetic myself, but damn right I'm homophobic!


Make as many smartass comments you want.  I’m all for them.  But you’re missing the SMART in smartass.  The problem I have is the view expressed in those “smartass” comments.  You say things like an agnostic’s ethics is “Do anything you want as long as you don't go to jail,” you’re very, very wrong.  If I’m ever sarcastic or ironic in your threads, it’s to give you my opinion.  When I say “OMG!  The Bible!?  We can’t question that, EVER!” I’m saying that I don’t take the bible literally and I think as people, we should ask serious questions about everything we come across instead of simply accepting them.  Since religious outlook is especially important to me, I think it’s especially important to examine and question scripture to come to an informed conclusion.  So I guess you were being “funny” here to show me you beliefs.  I disagree with your beliefs.


Quote from: babylonx

PLEASE provide this chick with some scriptures to shut her up! God killed men, women and children just because they didn't believe in him. What are you talking about? He created us, he can end us if he wants! If I draw a picture, I have every right to do whatever I feel like to it, I CREATED IT!


For myself and anyone else who doesn’t take scripture literally, you’re argument is useless, so giving me some scripture won’t shut me up.  On that note, I have all the scriptures and then some, so don’t worry about me.  

Let's just say the God I believe in isn't exactly like the God found in the bible.

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2006, 12:55:23 AM »
Quote from: vanity_fair


You say things like an agnostic’s ethics is “Do anything you want as long as you don't go to jail,” you’re very, very wrong.  If I’m ever sarcastic or ironic in your threads, it’s to give you my opinion.  When I say “OMG!  The Bible!?  We can’t question that, EVER!” I’m saying that I don’t take the bible literally and I think as people, we should ask serious questions about everything we come across instead of simply accepting them.  


See right there you try to defend yourself by saying your sarcasm is part of a serious discussion which expresses your opinion, but when I say that I think agnostics do whatever they like, you find it offensive and start insulting me!


Quote from: vanity_fair


For myself and anyone else who doesn’t take scripture literally, you’re argument is useless, so giving me some scripture won’t shut me up.  On that note, I have all the scriptures and then some, so don’t worry about me.  

Let's just say the God I believe in isn't exactly like the God found in the bible.


Thanks for telling me that. I asked you this question yesterday, but you took it as in insult and twisted the question. I asked what your beliefs were so I know how I can debate with you because if you don't take the bible literally and believe in a different God not like the one in the bible, then everything I say is useless to you. Thats like a muslim debating with me using koranic verses.

And like Senalko said, don't mix what I say with what him and John say. Those guys are ALOT more patient than I'm and I don't want you labelling everyone else like me!

Offline MXJSPH

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« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2006, 03:49:34 AM »
After reading everything that has been put forward thus far, I will make some general points.. I could quote by the bucketload but I think it will be plain to see what I am refering to.. Anyway:

1. To regard the Bible as a very serious historical piece of writing is quite folly. There are inconsistancies in terms of what happened in history and the such.. That much is obvious. It is a religious script primarily, keep that in mind.

2. Vanity, I agree with near enough everything you have said. I am glad to see a person with a head that isn't fashioned of wood. A man named A.C. Grayling considered the issue of tolerance in his books.. He asked, 'Should the tolerant tolerate the intolerant?'. After much discussion, which you will find in his book 'The Meaning of Things', he came to the conclusion that no, the tolerant should not tolerate the intolerant. By doing is, one is allowing the spread of intolerance to a greater scale. One may argue against this conclusion, but the arguments have probably already been outlined in the book, which I will endeavour to find and paste certain sections. Anyway, this is related to this topic because there are present many fundamentalist Christians who believe some rather absurd things.. which is in contrary to some parts of their own religious doctrine..

Behaving in such a manner is not demonstrating any enlightened qualities, or even maturity. What is demonstrates is ones ineptitude and low level of character when considering the world and everything in it. The levels of idealism are drastically high in these individuals. Agnosticism is a tolerant and liberal school of thought, that is all. Some people attack this tolerance because it belittles their fundamentalism.. It makes them seem narrow minded and too eager for answers. So I expect all this aggro that comes with being liberal.. Its what happens when people frown upon 'multiple answers' rather than just one singular one..

3. I wonder if any of you headstrong Christian zealots ever considers hermeneutics? Have you ever tried deciphering anything on a page instead of digesting it all literally? I assume not. It is a mentality like that, that saw all the witch burnings and executions for crimes of heresy take places hundreds of years ago. When will you see that fundamentalism is simply not efficient? It is out of touch with reality..

4. For those of you who quote the OT and the NT equally.. Here's a little food for thought. Have you ever considered the differences between the God that is present in the OT and the NT..? The God in the OT is a cruel and jealous God, who physically took action in the world he had created, raining fire down from the sky, destroying whole cities, murdering entire populations at his whim. The God in the NT is hardly the same.. no? That is because the NT, particularly the gospels, are the realisation of God from a newfound perspective. How comes God did not behave in this manner in the OT? The writers are still Jewish, the only things that had changed is a select few number of people's attitude and outlook on religious matters. Without these differences, without the variations in belief, there would have been no Christianity in the first place as it took Jews to break away from their religion and start something of their own design. This is the case in all religions, all disciplines, including agnosticism. It is a spiritual form of government.. Not something that can be disputed as right or wrong, but a freedom of choice. As all faith is blind, it would be like two blind men arguing the colour of a particular chair or something.

5. There still is no evidence to suggest that any God of any religion is the true God. Maybe they are all one interpreted differently..? It still is something one cannot ascertain with fact. That is why something such as agnosticism exists, not to defy and deny, but to accomodate the uncertainty that humanity is prone to. It is for the people who do not want to half-heartedly belong to a religion they doubt everyday.. Arguing in favour of one God over another is a silly thing to do, it has no sense.. You might as well all become politicians and glorify your manifesto as opposed to your peer's..

Lastly, this whole thread just appears to be Vanity putting forward a strong case, only to be chipped away at, rather unsuccessfully, by certain individuals who are unsure of what to say to disagree with her.

Anyway, I'll refrain from saying anything else for now..
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

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