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Offline Ludikristen

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does hell exist?
« on: December 28, 2005, 09:54:17 PM »
Have you guys heard of that theory 'annihilationism' or 'annihilism' or whatever it's called? It's that hell doesn't exist and when people who don't follow Jesus die, their souls will be annihilated.
This theory is backed up by Jesus' and other Bible writers' comments about eternal life - that it's a gift for believers. If hell existed then that too would be eternal life, just not a very nice one, but the Bible makes it clear that only believers will live forever.
Also, people who support annihilism say that the NT writers were heavily influenced by Greek ideas at the time, and the Greeks believed in Hades, so the NT writers based a lot of their ideas about hell on that. They also were influenced by the Jewish idea of sheol.
I've heard people who support this idea say that 'hell' is mentioned very few times in the NT, and where it is it's based on hades. But I'm sure I read recently in one of the Gospels Jesus himself mentioning hell (I can't remember where it was and I'm at work and don't have my bible with me).
I'd like to believe in annihilsm cos it seems more merciful, and to be annihilated seems like punishment enough - i.e. never being able to participate in God's presence and all that he has in store for us. But, I haven't decided yet.
What do you guys think?
(btw, anyone is welcome to enter this debate, not just Christians  :mrgreen: )



Offline Ludikristen

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does hell exist?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2005, 11:21:30 PM »
Thanks Eddie, take your time - no rush.
But when you do have the time, exact verses would be appreciated cos you haven't convinced me yet.

Offline David

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does hell exist?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2005, 11:35:23 PM »
yeah sure, why not.
"It is dreadful when something weighs on your mind, not to have a soul to unburden yourself to. You know what I mean. I tell my piano the things I used to tell you." -Frediric Chopin

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Offline MXJSPH

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does hell exist?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2005, 11:37:53 PM »
Quote
(btw, anyone is welcome to enter this debate, not just Christians Mr. Green )


Haha.. Nice one :)

Anyways, back to the issue.. I think you have to tackle the issue of what a soul is in the first place. Nobody can really give a concrete definition of it, so I'll share my view on the matter. Presuming there is a soul within us, that exists after our earthly deaths.. In what instance can we retain our identity..? For our brain has all our memories, all our characteristics, all our experiences.. A soul in the afterlife would be some kind of wispy spirit with no substance.. Would it not..? If God has given us each a soul, this soul presumably has not been shaped as of yet, it has no traits, no characteristics.. we acquire them through life. Using this predicate, our body makes all the difference. When it dies, has our soul been altered in any way? Or was it merely our body? One may argue do we even have 'souls' anyway... This brings the whole duelist theories into question.

Moving on, I do think Christian writers must have been influenced by the Greeks. Its inevitable. While Christianity was a new religion at the time, and things were just starting out.. I'd imagine that certain things were borrowed or adopted during its rise. I mean, even Christianity was born out of Judaism.. Its just inevitable.

Hell is a concept that originates from much pagan religions, and myth... Before the time of Christ. It was used as a tool to scare people from being evil and encouraged them to be of good allignment, to have a place in a good afterlife. The two concepts, heaven and hell, can never be recognised in an afterlife we apparently proceed to.. I think we can create our own heaven, and our own hell, here on earth. As every person has theirs desires, and their fears. Immortality would overide all notions of fear and desire for everything will lose its meaning. Good cannot exist without a span of time to be refered to.. And it is the same with evil. How can anything exist, how can anything have a meaning, if it does not have a reason, or consequence..? Thus I think immortality is a state of non-being.

Ultimately, the problem with theories about the afterlife, and if there is something more than our earthly existences is that they are penned by people who have never experienced death. That remains the big wall in this issue.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

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Offline peachy

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does hell exist?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2005, 11:51:37 PM »
Quote
I think we can create our own heaven, and our own hell, here on earth.


I think i heart you!

Offline Ludikristen

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does hell exist?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2005, 12:11:33 AM »
Quote from: MJaY
Quote
(btw, anyone is welcome to enter this debate, not just Christians Mr. Green )


Haha.. Nice one :)

Anyways, back to the issue.. I think you have to tackle the issue of what a soul is in the first place. Nobody can really give a concrete definition of it, so I'll share my view on the matter. Presuming there is a soul within us, that exists after our earthly deaths.. In what instance can we retain our identity..? For our brain has all our memories, all our characteristics, all our experiences.. A soul in the afterlife would be some kind of wispy spirit with no substance.. Would it not..? If God has given us each a soul, this soul presumably has not been shaped as of yet, it has no traits, no characteristics.. we acquire them through life. Using this predicate, our body makes all the difference. When it dies, has our soul been altered in any way? Or was it merely our body? One may argue do we even have 'souls' anyway... This brings the whole duelist theories into question.

Moving on, I do think Christian writers must have been influenced by the Greeks. Its inevitable. While Christianity was a new religion at the time, and things were just starting out.. I'd imagine that certain things were borrowed or adopted during its rise. I mean, even Christianity was born out of Judaism.. Its just inevitable.

Hell is a concept that originates from much pagan religions, and myth... Before the time of Christ. It was used as a tool to scare people from being evil and encouraged them to be of good allignment, to have a place in a good afterlife. The two concepts, heaven and hell, can never be recognised in an afterlife we apparently proceed to.. I think we can create our own heaven, and our own hell, here on earth. As every person has theirs desires, and their fears. Immortality would overide all notions of fear and desire for everything will lose its meaning. Good cannot exist without a span of time to be refered to.. And it is the same with evil. How can anything exist, how can anything have a meaning, if it does not have a reason, or consequence..? Thus I think immortality is a state of non-being.

Ultimately, the problem with theories about the afterlife, and if there is something more than our earthly existences is that they are penned by people who have never experienced death. That remains the big wall in this issue.


What are duelist theories? I want to know cos I'm not yet
[/i]entirely convinced that we have souls.

Also, your second-to-last paragraph really lost me. Can you explain it in greater detail? I was lost after "The two concepts, heaven and hell, can never be recognised ..."

Offline MXJSPH

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does hell exist?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2005, 01:06:24 AM »
Quote
I think i heart you!


At least I'm not alone in my thinking.. :)

Quote
What are duelist theories? I want to know cos I'm not yet entirely convinced that we have souls.

Also, your second-to-last paragraph really lost me. Can you explain it in greater detail? I was lost after "The two concepts, heaven and hell, can never be recognised ..."


Dualism* sorry.. Yeah, thats basically the theory that spirit and matter are different entities. It is the position that there are both physical and non-physical things in the world. Dualism holds that human persons are among the non-physical things, each individual associated intimately with a physical thing: his or her body.

According to this position, we often make simple mistakes in which we mix subjects and predicates.. like.. 'I'm 174cm tall' should really be 'my body is 174cm tall'... And things like that. Plato pioneered much of the thought behind it.. He suggested that since the person is non-physical, it has no parts. Hence it cannot 'come-apart' (i.e. disintegrate or be destroyed). This effectively means the person (the soul/spirit) is immortal.

That is basically dualism in a nutshell.

Anyway, as to that paragraph that was unclear... Many people talk of heaven and hell, and all these otherwordly spiritual concepts.. But like, what would you do if they were reality.. forever. Dont you think they would lose their value..? Do not forget we are human. We cannot reside in one state too long without wanting a change, or wanting more, or an improvement, or something along those lines.. By being eternal, everlasting, and immortal.. this goes against practically all our subconscious desires.

I consider myself of the earth, and live an earthly life, with earthly joys and loves. I try to create my own happiness for me and the people I care about while I live this earthly life.. for (quoting a movie) everything is more beautiful because it is doomed. Being extra-temporal renders everything we know meaningless.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

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Offline babylonx

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Re: does hell exist?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2005, 01:48:14 AM »
Quote from: Ludikristen

(btw, anyone is welcome to enter this debate, not just Christians  :mrgreen: )


If you didn't say that then Mjay would've started crying like a *****hhhh just like he did in my thread LOL.

Offline babylonx

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does hell exist?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2005, 02:03:12 AM »
Quote from: Senalko
Quote from: MJaY
Quote
(btw, anyone is welcome to enter this debate, not just Christians Mr. Green )


Haha.. Nice one :)

Anyways, back to the issue.. I think you have to tackle the issue of what a soul is in the first place. Nobody can really give a concrete definition of it, so I'll share my view on the matter. Presuming there is a soul within us, that exists after our earthly deaths.. In what instance can we retain our identity..? For our brain has all our memories, all our characteristics, all our experiences.. A soul in the afterlife would be some kind of wispy spirit with no substance.. Would it not..? If God has given us each a soul, this soul presumably has not been shaped as of yet, it has no traits, no characteristics.. we acquire them through life. Using this predicate, our body makes all the difference. When it dies, has our soul been altered in any way? Or was it merely our body? One may argue do we even have 'souls' anyway... This brings the whole duelist theories into question.

Moving on, I do think Christian writers must have been influenced by the Greeks. Its inevitable. While Christianity was a new religion at the time, and things were just starting out.. I'd imagine that certain things were borrowed or adopted during its rise. I mean, even Christianity was born out of Judaism.. Its just inevitable.

Hell is a concept that originates from much pagan religions, and myth... Before the time of Christ. It was used as a tool to scare people from being evil and encouraged them to be of good allignment, to have a place in a good afterlife. The two concepts, heaven and hell, can never be recognised in an afterlife we apparently proceed to.. I think we can create our own heaven, and our own hell, here on earth. As every person has theirs desires, and their fears. Immortality would overide all notions of fear and desire for everything will lose its meaning. Good cannot exist without a span of time to be refered to.. And it is the same with evil. How can anything exist, how can anything have a meaning, if it does not have a reason, or consequence..? Thus I think immortality is a state of non-being.

Ultimately, the problem with theories about the afterlife, and if there is something more than our earthly existences is that they are penned by people who have never experienced death. That remains the big wall in this issue.



thats a good opinion you have got, but at the end of the day its just a theory that Can not be proven... Would i Gamble on my Destiny & my fate based on Assumptions and possibilities?

YES the bible Writers would most defaintely have been influenced by the Greeks, however i am willing to put more faith in what they wrote as being the truth, than base my beleifs on theories and assumptions...

Why do i feel this way? Well thats my own Conclusion that i have Drawn out of studying the history of the bible for many years...

Putting faith aside which is to be honest enough for me not to even debate, But putting that aside, it is a Well know Fact that

1- The bible was Written between 50-70 AD.... that is a Fact not a Fictional date...

2- 50 years after all the events of jesus has happened Are not long enough for people to lose their memory or start making things up...The time Frame which within the books were Written Are sufficent enough for alot of people whom they seen jesus and lived his mission with him to be Still alive...

3- The major point of my beleief is that it would have been totally impossible and way out of Character for a group of Jews to start preaching and writing things that are SO opposed to the jewish law and their leaders... IT makes no sense what so ever that at a time when Jewish Laws Were so dominate, that a bunch of jews Would make up stuff influenced by the Greeks that would be punished by the Death pentalty....

You would either have been mentally ill or simply illusioned to do something like that....

4- Jesus Christ, the human being has historically been proven to have Exisited... lets leave the Christian faith aside and discuss it from a historical point of view.... if you Study the historical work of Jewish Writers at that time Who were not christians nor did they accept christ at any stage, u would find out that they actually Wrote about him, and they talked about " Weired things that he was able to do to people "

We know that magic and Witchcraft was popular back then, BUT not to the extent of being able to heal sick people and rasie others from death...

5- Lets Assume for the sake of Disccusion that Jesus was born, a human and died a human.... lets assume that he was a Philisopher who tried to start his own movement and someone who tried to change the Jewish customs and totally Rebell against his own people..

For a Start, we know historically that the jewish elders totally rejected him, and condemned him to Death....History tells us and proves to us that after jesus's death, his movement was Crushed... his followers were all Scattered, rattelled and many were Arrested and Jailed...

Jesus's death singneled the end of his followers... History tell us that for quite some time, They were living in Hiding, in fear of being Caught and were totally Scared to even go out...

the Turning point in History is the mistery of trying to Explain How these people all of Sudden Got the Courage to get out, defeat fear, and start preaching the Gospel so passionately, fully knowing that they will be killed for it... and they were killed for it... one after the other....


I beleieve that only GOD's holy spirit, and all the things that he promised and told people about Came True....


At the end of the Day, We all have two options... We either beleieve in GOD or we dont.... its either White or Black...

We cant build our lives on theories and Assumptions becuase by doing so, We are only trying to draw a picture that would Suit our own needs and makes us do what we do without feeling Guilt....

IF there is a True GOD and jesus, then all is Written in the bible is True and will come true, and those who dont beleieve will pay the Price...

IF there is no GOD, then there is no GOD... aftetr death, we all come back to where we came from.....BUT the problem is, We Cant prove it... cuase the best humanity can offer for us are theories and assumptions...

where as the case for GOD are told by people who Swore that its the Truth....

At the end, I choose to beleieve in GOD, becuase if GOD was proven to be just a myth, i lose nothing in life... I would have lived it on very high morals, and i would have no Regreats what so ever....

BUT if GOD was proven to Exist, then pitty on those who didnt beleieve in him....


I would've said exactly what you said, except with more insults....LOL

Offline Angel2

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does hell exist?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2005, 04:03:38 AM »
Jews don't believe in hell and Jesus was a Jew, which means he didn't believes in hell........................Judiasm and Christianity are the same religion with few modifications....................I think man created hell as a way of order
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline BroonitBeita

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does hell exist?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2005, 04:48:16 AM »
sorry to disapoint, but Jews do believe in hell. the Old testament is filled with comments about hell, the word actually occurs 31 times in the Old Testament.

and Jesus believed in hell. He taught about it:
Mat 25:41  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

the Old Testament speaks of Hell, from many different prophets. The New Testament speaks of it, from Christ Himself to the Apostles.

Hell is very real, and scary. so scary some try and deny it.

Offline Angel2

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does hell exist?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2005, 04:54:03 AM »
Quote from: BroonitBeita
sorry to disapoint, but Jews do believe in hell. the Old testament is filled with comments about hell, the word actually occurs 31 times in the Old Testament.

and Jesus believed in hell. He taught about it:
Mat 25:41  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

the Old Testament speaks of Hell, from many different prophets. The New Testament speaks of it, from Christ Himself to the Apostles.

Hell is very real, and scary. so scary some try and deny it.



there was a rabbi on Larry King and he said no and my Christian univ bible professors agree.............ask a conservative Jew
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline Ludikristen

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does hell exist?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2005, 05:40:36 AM »
Quote from: Angel2
Quote from: BroonitBeita
sorry to disapoint, but Jews do believe in hell. the Old testament is filled with comments about hell, the word actually occurs 31 times in the Old Testament.

and Jesus believed in hell. He taught about it:
Mat 25:41  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

the Old Testament speaks of Hell, from many different prophets. The New Testament speaks of it, from Christ Himself to the Apostles.

Hell is very real, and scary. so scary some try and deny it.



there was a rabbi on Larry King and he said no and my Christian univ bible professors agree.............ask a conservative Jew


Angel, they didn't call it 'hell' - they called it sheol, and it was kind of like a grey underworld - like a waiting room filled with depressed souls (I think kinda like a dentists  :lol:) It's mentioned quite a lot in the OT but I can't give you exact places now cos I'm at my brothers' and he doesn't have a bible (athiest *sigh*) I think it's mentioned a bit in the minor prophets, like they say stuff like " and even if I go to the depths of sheol where can I hide from you?" kinda stuff. so, yeah, Jews did believe in a kind of hell.

Offline Angel2

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does hell exist?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2005, 05:47:13 AM »
Quote from: Ludikristen
Quote from: Angel2
Quote from: BroonitBeita
sorry to disapoint, but Jews do believe in hell. the Old testament is filled with comments about hell, the word actually occurs 31 times in the Old Testament.

and Jesus believed in hell. He taught about it:
Mat 25:41  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

the Old Testament speaks of Hell, from many different prophets. The New Testament speaks of it, from Christ Himself to the Apostles.

Hell is very real, and scary. so scary some try and deny it.



there was a rabbi on Larry King and he said no and my Christian univ bible professors agree.............ask a conservative Jew


Angel, they didn't call it 'hell' - they called it sheol, and it was kind of like a grey underworld - like a waiting room filled with depressed souls (I think kinda like a dentists  :lol:) It's mentioned quite a lot in the OT but I can't give you exact places now cos I'm at my brothers' and he doesn't have a bible (athiest *sigh*) I think it's mentioned a bit in the minor prophets, like they say stuff like " and even if I go to the depths of sheol where can I hide from you?" kinda stuff. so, yeah, Jews did believe in a kind of hell.


interesting
is it a fire infested hell like where you are tortured?
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline John_5_24

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does hell exist?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2005, 06:25:54 AM »
Quote from: Angel2
Jews don't believe in hell and Jesus was a Jew, which means he didn't believes in hell........................Judiasm and Christianity are the same religion with few modifications....................I think man created hell as a way of order


Are you implying that all Jews believe the same thing?  Or that all Christians do?

Christianity and Judaism are hardly similar.  With Judaism, you are saved by the Law, with Christianity, you are saved by the Grace of God.  Two very different lines of thought and belief.
Rom 8:28  And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Offline BroonitBeita

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does hell exist?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2005, 06:26:46 AM »
there was a rabbi on Larry King and he said no
now thats gotta be true, it was on television.
there were some youdayeh called sadducees who didnt even believe in the resurrection, does that make it true?
Mat 22:23  That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.


Quote
Christian univ bible professors agree

do they think that homosexuality is not a sin and gay marriage is ok??


2 Tim 4:3-5  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.   But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

the doctrine of hell is sound. Christ preached it.

Offline MXJSPH

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does hell exist?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2005, 12:09:09 PM »
Quote
If you didn't say that then Mjay would've started crying like a *****hhhh just like he did in my thread LOL.



The point of that post was..?

You useless person..
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

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Offline Angel2

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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2005, 03:34:33 PM »
Quote from: John_5_24
Quote from: Angel2
Jews don't believe in hell and Jesus was a Jew, which means he didn't believes in hell........................Judiasm and Christianity are the same religion with few modifications....................I think man created hell as a way of order


Are you implying that all Jews believe the same thing?  Or that all Christians do?

Christianity and Judaism are hardly similar.  With Judaism, you are saved by the Law, with Christianity, you are saved by the Grace of God.  Two very different lines of thought and belief.


Most Jews do not believe in hell, but most Christians do............
Jesus never intended on a separate division or even a new religion to start.......There is NO quote where Jesus said I'm starting a new religion. People often forget he was a Jew and he was GREATLY influenced by the religion GOD had started. He only wanted to do a few modifications like allowing gentiles (non-Jews) into the table of fellowship.........Example, he allowed sinners, handicapped people, women and taxers into Gods' table of fellowship. Some other changes he made were that all foods are considered clean and you don't need ceremonial rituals like fasting, circumcision and sacrificing of animals and last, but most important is to believe he is the son of God.......that through him you will find light.....

Christianity is exactly derived from Judaism and to deny that shows you have no clue to what Christianity is.......................How could any1 understand Jesus without understanding his background and the context he lived in..............To understand Jesus you have to realize that Jesus was brought up by Jewish law and he practiced and preached those laws, but he had a few exceptions.......


But kheena Assyrian churches don't teach that and choose to say one line about Jews and that is they killed Jesus.......Not all Jews killed Jesus, it was the teachers of law........the people who brought this new branch of religion was his disciples (there names are listed in the bible so I won’t go over them)(the disciples were Jews and Jesus had many Jewish followers).............MAN STARTED Christianity because they were being treated badly and they felt separated...................JESUS DID NOT START OR EVEN INTEND ON CREATING A NEW RELIGION..................
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2005, 03:43:16 PM »
Quote from: BroonitBeita
there was a rabbi on Larry King and he said no
now thats gotta be true, it was on television.
there were some youdayeh called sadducees who didnt even believe in the resurrection, does that make it true?
Mat 22:23  That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.


Quote
Christian univ bible professors agree

do they think that homosexuality is not a sin and gay marriage is ok??


2 Tim 4:3-5  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.   But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

the doctrine of hell is sound. Christ preached it.



Kheena this guy is the head of the biblical studies at my university (has his PhD and this is what he taught me)..............I CHOOSE what I believe just like you......................
My sister has a separate bible teacher and she argues the same thing so I think MOST who are educated in this field would agree.............
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline babylonx

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does hell exist?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2005, 04:51:20 PM »
Quote from: Angel2

Jesus never intended on a separate division or even a new religion to start.......There is NO quote where Jesus said I'm starting a new religion.


Matthew 10:34
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51-53
Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Offline MXJSPH

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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2005, 08:06:42 PM »
Quote
I would've said exactly what you said, except with more insults....LOL


Dude, your not funny, why are you laughing at the end of your own petty and pathetic lines..? Go drive your little red car and show people how much of a man you are, you know next to nothing about these matters.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

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Offline babylonx

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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2005, 09:06:55 PM »
Quote from: MJaY
Quote
I would've said exactly what you said, except with more insults....LOL


Dude, your not funny, why are you laughing at the end of your own petty and pathetic lines..? Go drive your little red car and show people how much of a man you are, you know next to nothing about these matters.


It really bothers you that I have a nice car doesn't it..... Fuuckin faggot...LOL.

Offline Ludikristen

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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2005, 09:14:52 PM »
babylonX and MJaY, can you guys take your arguments to your own private thread, and leave this one for people who actually wanna post on the topic?

Offline MXJSPH

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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2005, 09:31:46 PM »
Lud, I didn't provoke anything here. I was posting normally, and this clown came in and had 2 jabs at me..? I think he should be crucified. :)

Anyways, back to the topic, regardless of how irritatingly distracting babylon's shiney bald head is.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

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Offline Ludikristen

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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2005, 09:50:09 PM »
Quote


Dualism* sorry.. Yeah, thats basically the theory that spirit and matter are different entities. It is the position that there are both physical and non-physical things in the world. Dualism holds that human persons are among the non-physical things, each individual associated intimately with a physical thing: his or her body.

According to this position, we often make simple mistakes in which we mix subjects and predicates.. like.. 'I'm 174cm tall' should really be 'my body is 174cm tall'... And things like that. Plato pioneered much of the thought behind it.. He suggested that since the person is non-physical, it has no parts. Hence it cannot 'come-apart' (i.e. disintegrate or be destroyed). This effectively means the person (the soul/spirit) is immortal.

That is basically dualism in a nutshell.

Anyway, as to that paragraph that was unclear... Many people talk of heaven and hell, and all these otherwordly spiritual concepts.. But like, what would you do if they were reality.. forever. Dont you think they would lose their value..? Do not forget we are human. We cannot reside in one state too long without wanting a change, or wanting more, or an improvement, or something along those lines.. By being eternal, everlasting, and immortal.. this goes against practically all our subconscious desires.

I consider myself of the earth, and live an earthly life, with earthly joys and loves. I try to create my own happiness for me and the people I care about while I live this earthly life.. for (quoting a movie) everything is more beautiful because it is doomed. Being extra-temporal renders everything we know meaningless.


With dualism, I don't really understand how the soul can be immortal. If it's connected to a physical body, and then the body dies, then the soul should normally die too right? Which means that God's gift of eternal life would be going against what would normally happen. Which is the whole point - that eternal life is a gift to believers.

As for your next paragraph, I used to lie awake at night when I was 7 freaking out about eternity (I was quite a strange child) so I can kind of see what you mean. What you said about being human though, well, as a Christian I would argue that the human qualities you mention are not how God intended us to be, that we weren't like that before the Fall, and that when we're restored by God our fickle natures won't be an issue. But me n u have got different world views, so it's hard to debate this when we're working off different assumptions, ay?

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2005, 09:51:49 PM »
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: Angel2

Jesus never intended on a separate division or even a new religion to start.......There is NO quote where Jesus said I'm starting a new religion.


Matthew 10:34
Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51-53
Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."




You don't understand the quotes and the quotes don't even apply to what I was arguing...........It's like taking a whole book and cutting a few pieces out and arguing something that doesn't exist.................1st of all what Jesus was saying is put striving for the WILL of God above everything, including the people you love/family and prepare yourself for rejection and opposition.
Another thing you don't seem to grasp is Jesus demanded peace and love.........loving God, your neighbors and enemies.........if you don't know this then sorry to say, you don't know the meaning of Christianity..........there was a quote in the bible where Jesus said forget about the eye for an eye and instead accept the prosecution.........In fact turn both cheeks to get the punishment.


I recommend reading The Gospels Interwoven by  Kermit Zarley to get your facts straight................it talks a lot about Jesus's life and his teachings...........taking quotes out of the internet is not enough to understand the bigger picture of God.......
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2005, 09:52:41 PM »
Quote from: MJaY
Lud, I didn't provoke anything here. I was posting normally, and this clown came in and had 2 jabs at me..? I think he should be crucified. :)

Anyways, back to the topic, regardless of how irritatingly distracting babylon's shiney bald head is.


LOL. First you tell me to shine my rims and now my shiny head is bothering you? LOL. Bro you look like a fuccking old blind grandmother with those fucckin stevie wonder sunglasses and that granny bandana. What you think your Ali G now tryin to look bad??

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2005, 10:31:19 PM »
Quote from: Angel2




You don't understand the quotes and the quotes don't even apply to what I was arguing...........It's like taking a whole book and cutting a few pieces out and arguing something that doesn't exist.................1st of all what Jesus was saying is put striving for the WILL of God above everything, including the people you love/family and prepare yourself for rejection and opposition.
Another thing you don't seem to grasp is Jesus demanded peace and love.........loving God, your neighbors and enemies.........if you don't know this then sorry to say, you don't know the meaning of Christianity..........there was a quote in the bible where Jesus said forget about the eye for an eye and instead accept the prosecution.........In fact turn both cheeks to get the punishment.


I recommend reading The Gospels Interwoven by  Kermit Zarley to get your facts straight................it talks a lot about Jesus's life and his teachings...........taking quotes out of the internet is not enough to understand the bigger picture of God.......


I don't need Kermit Zarley's interpretation of the Gospel to understand it! The Gospel is not written in encrypted codes, but its very simple for anyone to directly read and understand! And please don't jump to conclusions that I copy and paste quotes from the internet and haven't read the bible, you don't know me so please dont assume things about me!

As for the arguement: Christianity is SUPPOSED to be the direct continuation of Judaism because he was the promised messiah that all the prophets of Judaism talked about. However, Jesus KNEW that by preaching his radical ideas such as love your enemies and turn the other cheech instead of eye for an eye, he was obviously going to cause division and separation. The Judaism that the Jews knew was full of laws and rituals, but Jesus almost eliminated every single one of them. Your telling me eating unclean foods, not circumcizing, not making sacrificing to God and not keeping the Sabbath Holy are simple modifications? Jesus almost entirely eliminated Judaism. Jesus would stand in front of the high priests and tell them I AM THE SON OF GOD, you think they would just bow down and start worshipping him? Jesus knew how foolish and stubborn these people really were, therefore he knew that he was going to cause division and separation and thats exactly what he said in the quotes I posted!

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2005, 11:21:18 PM »
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: Angel2




You don't understand the quotes and the quotes don't even apply to what I was arguing...........It's like taking a whole book and cutting a few pieces out and arguing something that doesn't exist.................1st of all what Jesus was saying is put striving for the WILL of God above everything, including the people you love/family and prepare yourself for rejection and opposition.
Another thing you don't seem to grasp is Jesus demanded peace and love.........loving God, your neighbors and enemies.........if you don't know this then sorry to say, you don't know the meaning of Christianity..........there was a quote in the bible where Jesus said forget about the eye for an eye and instead accept the prosecution.........In fact turn both cheeks to get the punishment.


I recommend reading The Gospels Interwoven by  Kermit Zarley to get your facts straight................it talks a lot about Jesus's life and his teachings...........taking quotes out of the internet is not enough to understand the bigger picture of God.......


I don't need Kermit Zarley's interpretation of the Gospel to understand it! The Gospel is not written in encrypted codes, but its very simple for anyone to directly read and understand! And please don't jump to conclusions that I copy and paste quotes from the internet and haven't read the bible, you don't know me so please dont assume things about me!

As for the arguement: Christianity is SUPPOSED to be the direct continuation of Judaism because he was the promised messiah that all the prophets of Judaism talked about. However, Jesus KNEW that by preaching his radical ideas such as love your enemies and turn the other cheech instead of eye for an eye, he was obviously going to cause division and separation. The Judaism that the Jews knew was full of laws and rituals, but Jesus almost eliminated every single one of them. Your telling me eating unclean foods, not circumcizing, not making sacrificing to God and not keeping the Sabbath Holy are simple modifications? Jesus almost entirely eliminated Judaism. Jesus would stand in front of the high priests and tell them I AM THE SON OF GOD, you think they would just bow down and start worshipping him? Jesus knew how foolish and stubborn these people really were, therefore he knew that he was going to cause division and separation and thats exactly what he said in the quotes I posted!


-I'm surprised you said that reading the bible is a simple thing.......the bible was written during a different time and context and that alone makes it very confusing and challenging to understand. The bible goes into a lot of parables/stories that make no sense to us.....professionals even have a hard time agreeing on things and that is why you have all these church divisions.....................

-Jesus wanted to change a few things, not to go away from the religion his own very father/God started.........there is a difference between changing some things and creating a WHOLE different religion.......JESUS NEVER CREATED CHRISTIANITY..............HE came on earth feeling he had authority and he commanded SOME change, but that bothered the teachers.................yes he had made several changes, but his intentions were to better Judaism, not to go against it............why do you think we still use the old testament????????????????? The commandments that God gave Moses are still the commandments Christians use............

Assyrian ancestry (middle eastern)  views on Jews that have been passed down to our parents and us influence how we approach the whole Christianity/Judaic theme……we often tend to separate Christianity and Judaism  because all our lives we have been taught that they killed our God. Most of that is far from the truth…..
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2005, 12:36:41 AM »
Quote from: Angel2


-I'm surprised you said that reading the bible is a simple thing.......the bible was written during a different time and context and that alone makes it very confusing and challenging to understand. The bible goes into a lot of parables/stories that make no sense to us.....professionals even have a hard time agreeing on things and that is why you have all these church divisions.....................


The main beliefs of christianity are not hard to understand and you don't have to understand the whole bible word by word to know what its message is. Most of the parables are about love, forgiveness and the kingdom of heaven which are repeated over and over by Jesus telling us directly, through parables and through his actions and works....[/quote]
Quote from: Angel2

-Jesus wanted to change a few things, not to go away from the religion his own very father/God started.........there is a difference between changing some things and creating a WHOLE different religion.......JESUS NEVER CREATED CHRISTIANITY..............HE came on earth feeling he had authority and he commanded SOME change, but that bothered the teachers.................yes he had made several changes, but his intentions were to better Judaism, not to go against it............why do you think we still use the old testament????????????????? The commandments that God gave Moses are still the commandments Christians use............


Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 [/b]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church[/b]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If Jesus didn't want to cause separation then he would not want to build a new church would he. But I agree with what you say, Jesus didn't completely eliminate Judaism, but the changes he made were so radical that were completely different than those of Judaism. However, in reality Christianity is a continuation of the jewish scriptures since they talk about the coming of the Messiah and this messiah will have the authority to add to or modify the law! However, if the Jews didn't believe that Jesus is the Messiah then the Judaism they practised is completely different than christianity! But anyways, the main point is that you make it sound that Jesus accidently caused separation and didn't intend on building a new church, which I think is wrong because Jesus clearly knew he would cause separation and would in fact lead to the creation of a new church since he would be rejected by the majority of religious jews who would not accept his modifications to Judaism.

Quote from: Angel2

Assyrian ancestry (middle eastern)  views on Jews that have been passed down to our parents and us influence how we approach the whole Christianity/Judaic theme……we often tend to separate Christianity and Judaism  because all our lives we have been taught that they killed our God. Most of that is far from the truth…..


The Judaism practised by the Jews is based on eye for an eye and following alot of rituals such as ritually clean food, keeping sabath holy, circumcision, observing passover, etc.
When you compare this with Christianity, then it is completely different!
But anyways, what are your intentions? That we all start worshipping the Jews? Do the Palestenians hate the jews because they crucified Jesus? I think you get what im trying to say...

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2005, 02:20:06 AM »
I'll stop here because you won't change your mind and neither will I........Though nice conversing :mrgreen:


yalla God bless
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2005, 02:25:34 AM »
Quote from: Angel2
I'll stop here because you won't change your mind and neither will I........Though nice conversing :mrgreen:


yalla God bless


I think were both trying to say the samething! LOL

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2005, 02:27:34 AM »
Quote from: babylonx
Quote from: Angel2
I'll stop here because you won't change your mind and neither will I........Though nice conversing :mrgreen:


yalla God bless


I think were both trying to say the samething! LOL


YES We ARE!!!
at least we have things to say.......our brains like to work and think, which is always a good thing :)
"May the Lord Bless You & continually fill your heart with His Love. May He give you victory in every trial you face.....As you are blessed of the Lord, may you become a blessing in return to all those who share your life."   Audrey Jeanne Roberts

Offline babylonx

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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2005, 02:30:13 AM »
So which country are you from?

Offline Angel2

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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2005, 02:32:58 AM »
Quote from: babylonx
So which country are you from?

from USA (chicago).............

are you a baznaya because you seem just as hard headed as me? :angel2:
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