Author Topic: A NEW WAR  (Read 23737 times)

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Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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A NEW WAR
« on: August 09, 2006, 08:53:06 PM »
I don't know about you guys, but I'm kind of sick of the phrase "war on terrorism" ... it's such a vague phrase and it doesn't really convey what we really should be at war against.

Let's call it what it is.... THIS IS A WAR AGAINST RADICAL ISLAM ..... You tell the people in the Middle East we're fighting terror and they think we're full of **** because in their minds they think Israel and even the US has committed terrorist activities.... We should be very clear, we have nothing against Israel, nothing against Palestine, nothing against Lebanon, nothing against Iraq, nothing against Islam even. WE DO NOT WANT RADICAL ISLAM TO EXIST, plain and simple.

I think we need a change in strategy because clearly what we're doing is not all that effective. I'm not saying the US Policy is poor, I'm not saying our Agenda is wrong... I'm not saying reforming Iraq and bringing about a change to democracy was a bad idea. What I'm saying is we need to clearly define what we stand against and will not tolerate and make it very clear to the people in the Middle East what we're fighting.

Radical Islam is a cancer not only to us, but to the Islamic religion. We need to somehow bring to the forefront the moderate Islamic movement and propogate this throughout the Middle East. One that is loyal to government leaders, not to radical islamic clerics who justify death and murder (what kind of religion is this anyways and why do the Islamic people tolerate this?) We need to bring reform within the Islamic religion itself and eliminate hatred and violence from their teachings.

The American people need to understand what's going on here. In the past several hundred years millions of Christians and Jews and even rival sects of Islam have been killed in the name of Allah. What has happened in the time of the Nazi's is happening again. People are being brainwashed into a cause where killing people based on race is justified. But now it's not only justified by their government leaders, it's justified by "GOD" (supposedly). We need to wake up the American people and make the people in the Middle East understand what the hell we're fighting for. We're not fighting to make them miserable. We're fighting to ensure freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to elect your own government officials.

Clearly the Hezbollah leader is a radical Islamist and so is the Iranian leader because they both call for the destruction of Israel and America -- and to them this is not negotiable. There is no bargaining with them. What are you going to give these people? Money? Gold? Not even Land or Power. They want entire nations eliminated, no negotiations, no discussions. Anything short of this to them is unacceptable. And this attitude should not be acceptable to any free-thinking person in the world anywhere. I don't think the Syrian leader is a radical islamist or at least not yet. But We need to clearly define who are enemies are and why this battle needs to be fought. This is the most important thing in our lifetime we will ever be able to do for future generations, and that is to wipe out radical Islam once and for all.



Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 08:55:01 PM »
Born, let's be realistic here:

Let's just sit and wait like the far left wants us to, because there really isn't a Jihad. 

Sarcasm a bit.  But I agree with you to a point. 

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 08:55:08 PM »
By the way, my name is Yosef Adde, and I'm running for the office of President of the United States of America :)




(I wish someone would have the balls to tell the American people this).

Offline Hookah

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 09:39:23 PM »
There has to be at least one billion muslims in the world.  If you say you're declaring a war on radical islam, a vast majority of people aren't going to see the distinction and will assume its a war on all muslims.  And who is to say what's radical and what isn't?  You're saying the president of iran is radical, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but he was democratically elected.  Isn't that why there's US troops in Iraq right now?  Look at hamas, I'm sure you feel hamas is radical, yet they were democratically elected.  Hezbollah has members in the lebanese parliment. You can't just invade countries and force them to accept moderate islam, like you're showing them the light or something.  People don't need religion to teach them to be racist, hateful, and ignorant.  Just look at some of the posts on this website.


Its ok, I know its hard for you elephants to grasp the idea that all of the world's problems can't be solved by military invasion or cutting taxes.

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 09:48:40 PM »
Hooka, it's usually out of fear that moderate Islamists don't speak up.  It seems that about more than 15% support these radical groups and perhaps another small percentage are not speaking up.  That's a scary thought considering 1 billion people are Muslim.  That's half the size of the U.S. who openly support radical Islam.  I am not for going on just blowing things up, but if these men were truly "democractically" elected, then why are so many people quieted.  Remember, 60% of the population in Iran are moderate youths who opposed the Mullahs, yet the President is for the Mullahs.  It's a scary thought of what radical Islam is capable of and how many people they have reached around the globe spreading their propagande against the West. 

Offline Hookah

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 10:01:45 PM »
Do the moderates keep quiet because they are afraid, or because they tacitly approve but are smart enough not to wrap themselves up like ninjas and go on tv with a beaten up russian made ak-47 that they got from some ukranian garage sale?  You know why these radical islamists control their countries? Because the US and European governments allow it to happen.  They allow tyranical leaders to control the countries and to stay in power these tyrants keep the radicals in their back yard happy by supplying them with money and support.  The western governments see it as a trade off for having people that they have some kind of control over at the head of these countries.  Look at saudi arabia, their government is a "friend" to our government, yet they're some of the biggest supporters of radical islam.  I know you o'reiley lovers are sick of hearing about it but its all about oil my friend.  If you had open, democratic elections in every muslim country tomorrow, you'd have WWIII in a by the middle of next week.

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 10:10:51 PM »
I don't love O'Reilly, but I agree with his balanced views.  On the Saudi issue, I totally agree.  It's a shame how the U.S. and other western nations have relied so heavily on foreign oil even though our leaders suspect them of wrong doing.  We put ourselves in that position 30 years ago and I think we have dug our own graves.  You have to admit, our foreign policy 30 years ago is somewhat 180 degrees of what it is today, due to the fact of 9/11, London Bombings, Madrid, Bali, the list goes on and on.  But like I said, we have dug our own graves with this one and it's getting ever more difficult to climb out. 

Offline Free_Assyria

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 10:13:32 PM »
Above all you know what sounds so stupid
Is when Mr Bush says "war on terror"

How can you declare war on a human emotion? What a tool.
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Offline ASHOOR

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 10:15:14 PM »
Great topic.

I will say this for now: what America is doing in the war on terror is great. I may not agree with the way they are doing it, but that is for another discussion.

If September 11 hadn't happened and if the US hadn't launched its war on terror and radical Islam, this virus would spread and could have taken over the world in a century or so from now.  The US learns from history and they know that just like Muhamad created a religion and convered millions, this new wave of radical Islam could double the number of Muslims and eventually dominate earth.

I think of it more in terms of a religious plan rather than a political one, since Islam doesn't seperate state from religion.



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Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 10:29:17 PM »
Hookah, do you really think Saudi Arabia continues to support radical islam now? No doubt they once had their hands in this however I think the last thing they want is a Shiite Islamic run Middle East, plus Osama betrayed them more or less, blowing up Saudi properties and terrorizing their people. It seems Saudi Arabia now has no real desire to help the radicals but I could be wrong?

Also what would your solution be to kill radical islam once and for all?

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 10:35:50 PM »
Hookah, do you really think Saudi Arabia continues to support radical islam now? No doubt they once had their hands in this however I think the last thing they want is a Shiite Islamic run Middle East, plus Osama betrayed them more or less, blowing up Saudi properties and terrorizing their people. It seems Saudi Arabia now has no real desire to help the radicals but I could be wrong?

Also what would your solution be to kill radical islam once and for all?

In Saudi Arabia if you are caught with more then one copy of the bible you will be executed.  So much for a free democratic country.
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Offline ASHOOR

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 10:39:30 PM »
Born, I have an easy solution to kill radical Islam (which I beleive, the US is already working on)

Let ****tes and Sunnies fight it out to death (using, yes you guessed it, Nukes)

See, Pakistan is the first Muslim state to own a nuclear bomb. Pakistan is Sunni-based state.

Iran on the other hand is the first ****te-Muslim state to soon develop their own nukes. The anomosity between ****tes and Sunnies continues to get worse, thanks to what is going on in places like Iraq, Pakistan, India, Lebanon etc. Fuel it a little bit more, and these two factions will have no other option but to fight it out.  It will be ****tes from Iran, Iraq and Pakistan vs. the rest of the Muslim world, and Nukes will be the first option.

I strongly beleive that this is the the plan that the West has in mind to get rid of both sides (the radical elements) and eventually end up with a good version of Islam, which won't have any stupid terrorist bombers.



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Offline Free_Assyria

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 10:46:42 PM »
that’s a great plan now I know why I am not a world leader!  :bangin:


They just sit back and whatch the fireworks with a bowl of pop corn.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 10:50:20 PM by Driv3r »
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Offline Hookah

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 10:47:19 PM »
Yes I do think they support it.  Just because bin laden turned on them, it doesn't mean they haven't made deals with a dozen others just like him.  Plus a segment of their government and royal family agree with bin laden.  As long as they have oil money coming in they can create distractions by funding trouble makers in other countries and pretend to care about it and be "outraged" by it.  Like the palestinian cause, other arabs don't give two sh*ts about the palestinians but whenever one of these jackasses gets in front of a video camera, all of a sudden his heart is bleeding for the palestinian people.


You can't kill a religion, you can't dictate to people how to interpert their inner most beliefs.  You know what the problem is?  It isn't that radical islam is taking over the world, its that people think there's a "solution" to it.  There is no solution.  If a muslim is dirt poor and has no future, he can turn to radical islam because it gives his some sense of pride that he's a part of something big.  Take a rich muslim who is bored with his life, and he can turn to radical islam because it gives his pampered life meaning and a sense of worth.  You can't "cure" muslims.   That's why its a war on terror, because you can stop people from committing terror, you can't stop people from believing in something.  If you could Mel Gibson would be sitting in a tel aviv jail cell right now.

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2006, 10:51:41 PM »
The only way to stop Radical Islam is to stop world poverty. And that is impossible.
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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2006, 10:51:51 PM »
Hookah, although you stated that too in your sentence, no one is calling for an end to Islam as a religion. That is impossible, and only God can do it. What we and millions want to see, is an end to radical derty Islam. An example is those who blow themselvs up in ****tes funerals, and kill people who were mourning the death of their son who was killed in another suicide bomber. You really want someone who has that kind of beleif to continue operating based on that idioitic beleif?

If Iraq is not a lesson for how derty radical Islam is, I don't know what is.



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Offline ASHOOR

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 10:54:10 PM »
The only way to stop Radical Islam is to stop world poverty. And that is impossible.

SURE, looks so from the surface, but upon further analysis, you will realize that thew average suidice bomber is of a good income, with a good education often. I am basing these facts about the Sep11 as well as the London train bombings.  Even those who are bombing themselvs in Iraq (may God increased them, minus any innocent casualties) are usually found to have university education. But, of course some of them are mercenaries and poor.

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Offline Free_Assyria

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 10:59:54 PM »
The only way to stop Radical Islam is to stop world poverty. And that is impossible.

SURE, looks so from the surface, but upon further analysis, you will realize that thew average suidice bomber is of a good income, with a good education often. I am basing these facts about the Sep11 as well as the London train bombings.  Even those who are bombing themselvs in Iraq (may God increased them, minus any innocent casualties) are usually found to have university education. But, of course some of them are mercenaries and poor.

ASHOOR

Actually I am scratching the surface and looking further in depth. Suicide bombers never do it for themselves they do it for a cause and the cause is for their people.
And their people are in poverty.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 11:09:53 PM by Driv3r »
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Offline Hookah

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2006, 11:04:09 PM »
Ashoor, I'm not saying suicide bombers shouldn't be stopped.  I'm saying "radical islam" is such a broad, vague term with varying degress of support and organization that it would be impossible to "go to war" against it.  I'm also saying that these radicals can operate because a large segment of the population of the people that live around them support what they're doing to a certain degree.  They may not strap a bomb to their chest and blow something up but they'll have a little smile on their face when they see on tv that a couple of jews may have died or that a shiite or sunni died.  I'm saying radical islam is in fact based on hate, like born and others stated.  However I think that if people didn't already have a certain amount of hatred in them to begin with, they wouldn't be turning to suicide bombing and other horrendous activities.

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2006, 11:10:48 PM »
Nicely stated Hookah, and unfortunately, to defind 'Radical Islam' is not an easy task, although it should defeinetely include anyone wbho is willing to blow themselvs up...

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Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2006, 11:26:51 PM »
Radical Islam SHOULD be anyone that is determined to kill based on religion or race, period.... or I should say "Religious Radicals" or "Religous Fanatic Murderers". Call it what you will.

If you can not love your neighbor, forgive and forget, or negotiate terms ... and all you want is THE DESTRUCTION your enemies (ie. Israel, USA, etc) then you are a radical, period.

There can not be peace in the Middle East as long as radical elements exist. There are Israeli militias that don't report to the IDF as well, but they can be controlled and even eliminated because in the end they don't want the complete and total destruction of Islam. They just want to be left alone.

You can not negotiate with someone who is determined to kill you, period.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 11:28:24 PM by Born2Drv »

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2006, 10:13:36 AM »
coincident or what?  21 people are arrested in Britain, after being suspected of plotting to blow up several airplans bound for the US from the UK.

Possibly thousands of lives have been saved.  If convicted, these suspects should either be hanged or sent to their home country.

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Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2006, 12:12:44 PM »
coincident or what?  21 people are arrested in Britain, after being suspected of plotting to blow up several airplans bound for the US from the UK.

Possibly thousands of lives have been saved.  If convicted, these suspects should either be hanged or sent to their home country.

ASHOOR

They are British born. This IS their home country.

I can't even begin to comment on the posts above cos they actually fill me with anger that people are so black and white and can't understand the complexity of the situation.

Good luck to anyone who thinks the world's problems can be solved by bombs, guns and nukes. Anyone who believes this, in my opinion, is actually insane. Or dumb. Most likely both.

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Offline baklawa

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2006, 12:43:29 PM »
Putting our feelings about Hezballah aside, let's face reality -- they have one of the most organized and well-funded social welfare programs in the region, if not the world.  International aid agencies in Lebanon have marveled at how efficiently Hezballah has provided during this war.  The reason why they are popular in Lebanon -- even among some Christians -- has been their role in helping those in poverty, a group normally ignored by Middle Eastern governments.  THIS, my friends, is how you win supporters -- by providing the basic necessities such as food, shelter, clothing, medicine, education, etc.  Not by dropping a 500-ton bomb on some God-foresaken village.
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Offline charlie

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2006, 01:11:11 PM »
Quote
Good luck to anyone who thinks the world's problems can be solved by bombs, guns and nukes. Anyone who believes this, in my opinion, is actually insane. Or dumb. Most likely both.

Seconded.

I still dont know why the West think that by imposing democracy in the Middle East they will all of a sudden get peace and stability around the world?

Its been clearly demonstrated that when the people in the middle east get a chance to vote, they vote for the likes of Hamas and Hezbolah.
Maybe it shows that the only way they can get their point across is by turning to the so called "terrorist groups" because they see these groups are actually redressing some of the imbalances that exist in the Middle East.

The US can export as many democracies, and drop as many bombs as it wants but until the West actually starts to take on the underlying issues, such as the Palestinian issue, the Golan Heights, and now Lebanon, these groups will continue to exisist and grow in number and exploit the fact that the US arms and funds Israel.


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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2006, 06:00:25 PM »
"Fighting terrorism is like a goal keeper in football doesn’t matter how many you save it’s the one that gets passed you that counts"





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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2006, 06:19:04 PM »
coincident or what?  21 people are arrested in Britain, after being suspected of plotting to blow up several airplans bound for the US from the UK.

Possibly thousands of lives have been saved.  If convicted, these suspects should either be hanged or sent to their home country.

ASHOOR

They are British born. This IS their home country.

I can't even begin to comment on the posts above cos they actually fill me with anger that people are so black and white and can't understand the complexity of the situation.

Good luck to anyone who thinks the world's problems can be solved by bombs, guns and nukes. Anyone who believes this, in my opinion, is actually insane. Or dumb. Most likely both.



I don't think anyone is that "insane" or "dumb."  But if you were on one of those planes and you had a Mid Eastern man begin to assemble a liquid explosive next to you, you'd sh*t your pants.  It's funny how we can all speak for those who are actually doing the real work.  We just bicker like old hags around tea and crumpets.  Myself included. 

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2006, 06:35:31 PM »
Whatever - I didn't say we need to just keep dropping bombs. I said our enemy is radical Islam. And we aren't going to win simply by bombing them.

We need to help the moderate Muslims, empower them to bring about change in their own religion and governemnts..... open people's eyes that VIOLENCE can not be justified by a RELIGION. I don't want to start a holy war. I want to kill the idea that a holy war should be fought to begin with.

The Middle Eastern people need to know where we stand. We stand for freedom. We will not tolerate radicalism. Not by Muslism, not by Jews, not by anyone. We're not fighting a war on terror. WE'RE FIGHTING RADICALS AND THE IDEA THAT THEIR ENEMIES MUST BE DESTROYED WHICH IS NON-NEGOTIABLE. Therefor no political solution exists. No military solution exists. The only way is through HOLLYWOOD pretty much... or something to that affect. You need to WESTERNIZE these people... TEACH THEM TO LIVE LIFE... not to kill eachother. Or another way would be to bring moderate arabs to the forefront... a women's rights movement perhaps... or helping moderate clerics renounce violence and embrace peace.... something to that extent... HELP the oppressed and the ones that just want to live in peace get rid of the radical element from their culture.

We don't need a regime change, we need an ideological change... and democracy doesn't hurt of course.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 06:42:40 PM by Born2Drv »

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2006, 06:44:07 PM »
coincident or what?  21 people are arrested in Britain, after being suspected of plotting to blow up several airplans bound for the US from the UK.

Possibly thousands of lives have been saved.  If convicted, these suspects should either be hanged or sent to their home country.

ASHOOR

They are British born. This IS their home country.

I can't even begin to comment on the posts above cos they actually fill me with anger that people are so black and white and can't understand the complexity of the situation.

Good luck to anyone who thinks the world's problems can be solved by bombs, guns and nukes. Anyone who believes this, in my opinion, is actually insane. Or dumb. Most likely both.



I don't think anyone is that "insane" or "dumb."  But if you were on one of those planes and you had a Mid Eastern man begin to assemble a liquid explosive next to you, you'd sh*t your pants.  It's funny how we can all speak for those who are actually doing the real work.  We just bicker like old hags around tea and crumpets.  Myself included. 

It's funny that someone ignorant and ill informed may not want to sit next to you or Born because you look Middle Eastern...They are as much British as you are American.

Of course i wouldn't be happy being sat next to a terrorist on a plane - that's a given. I was just saying that we can't fight terrorism through violence. I don't agree that the USA have or are making the world a better place.

What exactly has the 'war on terror' achieved so far other than making people more angrier and more vengeful?

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2006, 07:03:49 PM »
Whatever - I didn't say we need to just keep dropping bombs. I said our enemy is radical Islam. And we aren't going to win simply by bombing them.

We need to help the moderate Muslims, empower them to bring about change in their own religion and governemnts..... open people's eyes that VIOLENCE can not be justified by a RELIGION. I don't want to start a holy war. I want to kill the idea that a holy war should be fought to begin with.

The Middle Eastern people need to know where we stand. We stand for freedom. We will not tolerate radicalism. Not by Muslism, not by Jews, not by anyone. We're not fighting a war on terror. WE'RE FIGHTING RADICALS AND THE IDEA THAT THEIR ENEMIES MUST BE DESTROYED WHICH IS NON-NEGOTIABLE. Therefor no political solution exists. No military solution exists. The only way is through HOLLYWOOD pretty much... or something to that affect. You need to WESTERNIZE these people... TEACH THEM TO LIVE LIFE... not to kill eachother. Or another way would be to bring moderate arabs to the forefront... a women's rights movement perhaps... or helping moderate clerics renounce violence and embrace peace.... something to that extent... HELP the oppressed and the ones that just want to live in peace get rid of the radical element from their culture.

We don't need a regime change, we need an ideological change... and democracy doesn't hurt of course.

You can't force people to change their beliefs. And you know what - bombing Lebanon has only increased the support for Hezbollah. The sad thing is we all predicted it. Oppression, disproportionate force, war crimes, genocide, mass civilian deaths = massive recruiting officers for any 'freedom fighting' forces be it the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah

Secondly democracy - or shall i say the USA concept of democracy CANNOT be imposed on people who do not want it. You cannot impose it on them and then expect their culture, mindset, beliefs etc to fall into line. You cannot change hundreds, thousands of years worth of conditioning by forcing some sort of puppet democracy in a country - especially in Arab countries that are tribal.

'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2006, 07:35:37 PM »
So what do yuo suggest.... we just sit by while radicals force the submission and conversion of more and more jews/christians OR kill them all off until it gets to be so big of a problem we can't even defend ourselves?

How would you suggest we stop radical islam?

Because if you say WE SHOULDN'T STOP RADICAL ISLAM AT ALL.... I will never agree to that. I'd rather bomb the whole ****ing middle east then let them spread radical islam to the rest of the world.

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2006, 08:11:35 PM »
I'm not from Texas, nor a member of the NRA.  I am a tax paying U.S. citizen who only cares for the safety of me and my own.  That's all.  I don't want innocent people dying.  Do you at least believe that I am not a proponent of violence? 

I would however love to hear your suggestions on how we combat terrorism.  Diplomacy?  Enlighten us. 

Offline ISay

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2006, 08:49:38 PM »


 Oppression, disproportionate force, war crimes, genocide, mass civilian deaths = massive recruiting officers for any 'freedom fighting' forces be it the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah




You are describing here the situation of the Assyrian people in recent history.  Although we haven't resorted to "violence"  but that still leaves us without an "Assyria" in Bet Nahren.  Go figure!

Offline MXJSPH

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2006, 09:36:37 PM »
Well, I'm not planning to go blow myself up and take other people along with me for a patch of dirt in the middle east. I agree with the minority opinion though, violence isn't the answer.. There is no point, because what Israel is doing as an example, wont exactly make those radical islamic people think.. Ok hold up, they are killing us, we should stop. They will just be spurred on more, and as Whatever said, more will join their ranks.

The situation here in Britain is a dubious one. With all the breaking news, I was at first shocked and angry at such terrible plans. However, upon reflection I was quite skeptical of their sincerity. On the whole, all the hate that takes form via these various bombings and attacks is an amalgamation of religion, pursuit of power (and all its methods and devices) and initial racial or even religiously influenced cultural discrimination.

To simply bomb or just 'defend' (which is also a loosely coined term for a retributive attack) will not 'cure' any problems, as was mentioned before somewhere. Also, not one post here can settle the situation, relieve the tensions or seek suitable compromisations, one would have to write dissertations to outline the problems, the strife, and the roots of such vile hatred. The problem(s) are so much bigger than the news headline, but they dont want us to look at that properly, they want us to just nod our heads and keep them hollow.
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

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Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2006, 10:11:20 PM »
YOU KNOW WHAT. I'm so proud of MR. BUSH today for saying that we are fighting ISLAMIC FASCISTS!!!!! No more then 1 hour later the North American Islamic Federation or whatever was on TV critisizing George Bush for saying he's fighting Islam. WE"RE NOT FIGHTING ISLAM... JUST THE CRAZY ONES! I'm so sick of this political correctness bullsh*t. And you know what???? I'm sick of all these f*cking Islamic Federations and Anti-Descriminatory Islamic bullsh*t organizations for saying we're prejudiced against them. Instead of focusing their energy on changing our perception of Islam... WHY DON"T THEY FOCUS ON BRINGING REFORM IN THEIR STUPID RELIGION? OR AT LEAST BREAK AWAY AND SAY "HEY WE"RE NOT MUSLIM, WE"RE SONS OF MOHOMMED" or some sh*t... That they don't approve of violence. Why dont' these assholes speak against the Radical Clerics that tell people to strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up? All they can do is b*tch and moan that we're prejudice against them. Well f*ck them and their f*cked up religion. Let them critisize their religion leaders and reform their religion. If they don't give a sh*t about Islam, why should I?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 10:12:54 PM by Born2Drv »

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2006, 10:13:02 PM »
Again MJay you're in the same situation as Whatever... and I'm not nessasarily disagreeing with you. Perhaps violence is not the answer (or at least not the most EFFICIENT use of our resources)............ BUT at the end of the day, Radical Islam which is intolerant of anyone else and only wants to see the Jews and Westerners destroyed with no provisions or compromises for their survival... there is no negotiating with them. They want the entire Earth to be one islamic regime, period. This has to be stopped at all cost. Do you not agree?

What is your solution to stop the propogation of this CULT of radical Islam?

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2006, 10:24:44 PM »
Best solution is to have a mix of every solution suggested here:   Democrataizing the region +  Bombing the worst elements, including top Alqaeda members +  Winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world.


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Offline shamirum

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2006, 12:28:33 AM »
Wow! I read through some of this and will get back to the rest later when this week from hell is finally over for me.

Anyway, I saw a few "interesting" insults in there, not terrible, but just keep it calm everyone and this thread can stay in its place with no modifications or locks.

And I must say to all of you: great discussion. I think you are getting closer to the core of some of these issues, and that's wonderful; keep it up!

-S

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2006, 03:36:07 AM »
I agree with all to a point.  Mjay is certainly right as well in saying that none of us can really come up with a clear solution to this.  The whole story is not being told by the media and it's horrfying.  I watched Obsession and I was dumfounded.  Clerics I have never heard of are preaching "Moat al amreeka," death to America.  If this type of language is getting to even the most impoverished places on earth where islamsists can fuel the fire of hate, we are indeed in for some more horrific events.  I was never for violence, I was taught better than that, as are most children with inherited morals.  We are truly in something extraordinary with 200 million, if not more radical Islamists taking aim at the UK, the US, and other western nations.  I don't care for politics, (funny I should say that) but rather nervous for the future.  I say we all join MI5 and get to the bottom of this.  Who's with me?

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2006, 11:03:03 PM »
Where's Whatever and MJay?

Why is it whenever someone who opposes the war against terrorism or tries to ignore the problem of radical islam is confronted......they just bury their head in the sand rather then give a constructive response on how to solve the problem?

Offline charlie

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2006, 10:00:01 AM »
Quote
Why is it whenever someone who opposes the war against terrorism or tries to ignore the problem of radical islam is confronted......they just bury their head in the sand rather then give a constructive response on how to solve the problem?

As i said before until the underlying issues are tackled then the radicals will keep on recruiting.
How can the US be seen as an even handed power broker when on the one hand it arms and funds Israel, and then on the other draws up the terms of a ceasefire ?????

Look at whats happening to Iraq and Afghanistan, the US has destabalised these countries to the point that they're now in the midst of a civil war.
The "War on Terror" has only acheived one thing.
Creating more terrorists.

The issue here isnt just about the radical Islamists, but the radicals in the Neo Con government in the US and their supporters.
These people scare me more then any terrorist.
They are the ones brainwashing people into thinking that you can fight a "War on Terror", and the narrow minded people who buy into that BS are starting to beleive that they're winning.

A war on terror is nonsense and can never be won, terrorists are not born terrorists they are created by circumstance.


Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2006, 11:16:22 AM »
Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!! :)

Offline charlie

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2006, 12:36:12 PM »
Like I said a terrorist/ radical, whatever you want to label them, is brought about by circumstance.
Which means the War on Terror is BS.

But maybe if the US should stop meddling in the middle east and proping up corrupt regimes and arming terrorist states like Israel, if there was a more even distribution of wealth and better education in place especially in Saudi Arabia another US "ally".
Maybe just maybe there would be an end to some of the radicalism.

You cant bomb countries into accepting democracy.
By your own admission and I quote "I think we need a change in strategy because clearly what we're doing is not all that effective"
DAMN RIGHT, its making things worse.

You want answers but they're not the answers you want to hear, because some people have been brain washed by the media and government into thinking the US is the solution and not part of the overall problem, the answers you and every arm chair general want, is to bomb this, or bomb that, as long as it's someone else doing the bombing or the fighting on the front line and not you.  :mrgreen:

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2006, 12:38:35 PM »
Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!! :)

Born, i don't have time today to reply but i will tomorrow.

And please do not say posts are worthless because they don't answer YOUR question. Maybe there is no answer. the current answer a 'war on terror' is clearly not working and is wrong' though.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Offline shamirum

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2006, 01:19:50 PM »
Again, your post is not even worth 2 cents because all you did was complain.

What is your SOLUTION??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!! :)

That is completely illogical. In fact, that's like saying that unless you have the cure for cancer, you have no right to complain about being in pain. Maybe it's time to come up with a better argument.

And please don't resort to calling other people's views (posts) worthless, just because they aren't motivated to kill kill kill to make anything go their way. Not everyone can think like Bush, and I personally thank God for that.

Offline baklawa

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2006, 02:44:28 PM »
I have family in Syria.  Not exactly the most "democratic" of countries.  But they are happy there.  They live in a mixed neighborhood of Christians (Assyrians -- both east and west -- Armenians, etc.), Kurds, and Arabs (Sunnis and Shiites).  They sleep with the doors and windows open, they have never been harassed by anyone.  Can they criticisize the government? No.  Can they speak against their president? No.  Can they kill their neighbor because they are of a different religious sect/race and get away with it? No.  They look at Iraq and say, "If this is democracy, thanks, but no thanks."  People will exchange their civil liberties for security any day.  It's happening here in the US as we sit here and discuss this.
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Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2006, 02:59:58 PM »
OK well thank you for at least trying to answer my question....

But maybe if the US should stop meddling in the middle east

THEY HAVE TO MEDDLE in the middle east one way or another. Maybe not through the use of bombs or regime change, etc... but if they sit back and do nothing radical Islam will just continue spreading. There were no radicals in the US, Britian, France, etc 50 years ago. Now there are. And don't tell me it's because the US is meddling in their business. It's because these people want the unconditional destruction of Israel and Christianity and Absolute World Domination and Submission into their form of Islam. That's not born2drv's point of view --- that's straight from the horse's mouth... from Osama Bin Laden, from all the radical clerics, from the leader of Iran, etc.

proping up corrupt regimes and arming terrorist states like Israel

Again the US can't just sit around and do nothing, but I think you're correct ---- arming Israel is not the answer. The fighting if any --- should be done from an "independant third party force" ... preferably a mostly Muslim state or somene not connected to the US/Israel in any way... like the Lebanese army themselves, the Iraqi army once they get off their feet, the Turkish, French, Egyptians, etc who have all expressed a desire to be part of this international stabilizing force.

But these 2 points you brought up aren't really answering the question what should we do, you're just saying what we shouldn't do which I don't think is all that constructive, because in my mind trying is better then not trying at all, and I give my government credit for trying their best to resolve this problem.

if there was a more even distribution of wealth and better education in place especially in Saudi Arabia another US "ally".

OK that's your first point about something we SHOULD do, that's good. To be honest, I'm very encouraged by China, Pakistan and India becoming industrialized so rapidly even if that means a loss of jobs and wealth for the US, it really does make me happy. China's GDP rose 10% last quarter and India was very high as well, somewhere around 7-8%. I think I read a report that in China, McDonalds can not build drive-throughs fast enough because everyone is trading their bicycle in for a shiney new car. Wealth is growing in these nations, and this makes me happy especially in Pakistan because when they have wealth, a steady job and want to live life in peace and raise a family, they'll forget about making homemade bombs and killing people, etc. I do think this will happen naturally.  Saudi Arabia is a very different country because they already have wealth but they do not really have a booming economy tranforming the lower class. But I see the US, Britian and Saudi's pouring tons of money in places like Dubai, etc and not just building lots of housing and hotel resorts, but putting in place a thriving western-style downtown core and getting big business in there to offer high tech jobs. I know the same is happening now in Northern Iraq, they're building huge housing centers in gated communities -- also funded by US and British investors in the hopes of getting the people of Iraq a higher quality of living and good jobs, etc.

So I think the US, Britian and Suadi Arabia are doing much more then you think to bring about change and reduce poverty then you realize, and nations like China, India and Pakistan have record growth and are doing it on their own. But like all things this large-scale, these things take time.

And if I insulted you or anyone I apologize. I just get frustrated by people who critisize but offer no constructive solutions.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 03:03:10 PM by Born2Drv »

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2006, 01:04:54 AM »
Stop blaming everyone else and offer up your solution to the problem!!!!! If you have no solution you have no right to complain!!!! :)

That is completely illogical. In fact, that's like saying that unless you have the cure for cancer, you have no right to complain about being in pain. Maybe it's time to come up with a better argument.


Shami, I humbly disagree. I believe this issue of radical islam is one of those in which "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" .... because the more you try to ignore it, the worse the problem becomes. And unlike cancer, there IS a cure for this problem if everyone really wanted to work at it.

My own people, the Americans, honestly really disgust me at times because their attitude is ---- "Why are we fighting? If we stop fighting they won't hate us and will leave us alone." ---- But they're wrong... THEY WILL ALWAYS HATE US, not for what we do, but what we stand for --- peace, liberty, freedom, democracy, capitalism --- in short "The American Dream" which is spreading throughout the globe if you haven't noticed.... some regions are adapting easier then others of course. But they do not like the westernization of world that they see which is changing before their eyes... just look at what's happened in India in the past 20 years, they've literally evolved 200 years in that 20 years by western standards. Islamic Radicals do not want their people to progress and become more civilized. They want to live like they've lived for the past 1000 years and don't want any western influence what-so-ever. And the way they've lived the past 1000 years is by controlling their people and forcing Islam on others.... the "Islamification of the World" is their goal..... anything short of that to them is unnacceptable. And to have their people seek "The American Dream" is 100% totally unnacceptable.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 01:08:54 AM by Born2Drv »

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2006, 07:11:09 AM »
Born. I don't have a solution. If I did I’d be shouting it from the rooftops. I just do not agree with the way we are dealing with it now. Not because i love Islam, not because i am on the side of the Islamic extremists but because
a) I am very uncomfortable with the mass killings of innocent civilians in order to try and weed out a minority (and they are a minority)
b) And this is very important. IT'S NOT WORKING. I don't know how else to put it.

Iraq has descended into a bloody and dangerous civil war. The US/UK can deny it all it wants but that is the situation there at the minute. Yes Saddam has gone but did that end justify what has happened in the country since? Can you honestly, hand on heart, say that now because they get to vote, Iraqis are living a better life? I don't think you'll find a person in Baghdad that will agree.
Hezbollah has become active again and Hamas got into power in Palestine. The only achievement of widespread killing, abuses by the army etc is to gain and garner support for these organisations.

Also let me tell you one thing about these so called Islamic extremists. They could be your next door neighbour. Literally. They are no different to any other Muslim on the surface. Here is some information on the men they have arrested in England over the last few days (and before anyone says send them back - they are mainly British born which means they are as British as I am)

Art student Don Stewart-Whyte switched to Islam as his sister forged a glamorous and successful career parading the catwalks in lingerie for firms including Victoria's Secret, Versace, Armani, and Chanel. Friends of the suspect, one of 24 arrested after raids in London, High Wycombe, Bucks and Birmingham, told how he never got over his father's death.

"I knew him when he joined the Christian church and he told me about trying to kill himself and had scars all over his wrist. He just cried about it all the time. Maybe he got involved in the Muslim faith because it is like a big family and he wanted his back."

Stewart-Whyte, who lives with Dorothy in Hepplewhite Close, High Wycombe, was said to have converted to Islam after turning his back on drink and drugs.

Another convert Ibrahim Savant, 25, is an accountant who lives at who lives at Alkham Road in Stoke Newington, East London, with his pregnant Muslim wife Atika Sidyot - who was also arrested - and her family. He was born with the Christian name Oliver but changed it when he switched to Islam after meeting Atika a few years ago.

Brothers Nabeel Hussain, 17, Umair, 24, and 22-year-old Mehrain were arrested in Hackney, East London. Nabeel lived with a group of youngsters in Royston Gardens and worked in the administration department at nearby St Anne's Hospital. The brother's dad Fazil wept yesterday as he declared: "My boys wouldn't hurt a fly. When the police came to my house, we thought our children had been in an accident"

One suspect held in Walthamstow, East London was a trainee probation officer. On shocked friend said: "Assan is a probation officer trying to help people in the community, not trying to kill them." Khan, of Banbury Rd, worked for Ilford Probation service who last night were unaware of his arrest.

Avid Chelsea fan Assan Abdullah Khan, 21, is doing a degree at the University of Hertfordshire while working. His brother Abdula Ahmed Ali, 25, was also held along with his wife Cossor Ali, mother of a six-month-old baby.

Football-mad Liverpool fan, Waheed Zaman, 23, is a biochemistry student whose dream was to become a doctor. He was due to sit his final exams in two weeks time.
 he was described as an excellent role model and an "ideal Muslim" who is a "Londoner first and a Muslim second".

These just sound like normal boys, living normal lives, doing normal things that you and I might do. Hell, i might sit next to Assam Abdullah Khan at Chelsea. Nothing would indicate these boys were Muslim extremists (if they are at all). They don't force it on me and they seem to have lived their lives within society, going to the football, having normal jobs, having families etc. One person who knew one of the suspects said 'I knew this guy, Waseem. I don't know if he did what he is accused of - and if he did them they should throw away the key. But my point is he was an ordinary taxi driver, an ordinary bloke who used to drink too much. It's like anybody can be a terrorist'

How can we stop young men like this? Well we have to take away their anger and injustice. And that Born, was created, when the USA (and others) decide they will dictate the future and the means that other countries will live. When they impose sanctions that cripples a nation, when the back Israel and allow it to commit War Crimes against others, When they allow Israel to occupy land that isn't theirs. Allah Ditta, 19, a muslim from High Wycombe where some of the arrested live said ' You know what's behind this don't you? It's British foreign policy. I know people don't like to hear it, but it's true. When you put young guys in front of images that shows the result of what goes on in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon some of them will flip. It's not the right conclusion but it's idiotic to pretend that it won't be reached by some'

I don't know what the solution is unfortunately but that doesn't mean i agree that we should carry on as we are. Maybe we should stop the killing and survey the wreckage. Maybe we should engage these people in talks and diplomacy rather than stating we have launched a war on terror on them. By saying you are at war with them means they have to take up arms and fight back. And you are also wrong to say if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. The problem is Born you have swallowed your US citizenship as much as some redneck hillbilly WASP. You are being so patronising going on about 'The American Dream' making everyone's life better and those who don't conform are backwards. This is exactly the reason you will never be able to see this situation in a non biased way.




'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2006, 03:03:23 PM »
Whatever, I appreciate your response, I really do.

I know you think I'm arrogant and I think "the american dream" is a lifestyle best earned for the most civilized people and should be something the entire world should strive for, and I didn't really mean to make it sound like that.

When I say westernized... or americanized.... I'm more or less saying "civilized" or "industrialized" or "modernized"......... the British people are now living what I would call "the american dream" because they have a stable government, good quality of living, the opportunity to succeed, freedom of religion, freedome of speech, etc, etc.... a lot of countries are evolving in a more industrialized, modern way of life..... and lets face it, in this new way of life, the power of GOD is diminished because we feel we can do anything God can do with our all powerful governments, technological advances and medical breakthroughs. I think this is a downside unfortunately of a country that becomes civilized, moderized, westernized, americanized, industrialized, call it what you will.

That one boy that had the sister that was a lingerie model is the perfect example. He sees her becoming modernized, and shedding her religous obligations and it infuriates him. He sees his culture falling apart little by little as his people are forced to become modernized and embrace western ideals, and he doesn't like it and therefor wants to blow up everything the West stands for.

There is the Western or Modern way of life, and there is the Islamic way of life, and they are so different that one can not exist with the other. You have female arabic singers now that are on TV performing in a more provocative manner showing more and more skin because it increases their popularity (think Madonna). You have scores of people trying to learn English so they can participate in the worldwide economy, and of course you have people who put other things ahead of their religious obligations.

I really don't think this has much to do with sanctions, foreign policy, etc like you stated, except for the fact where the US/UK support Israel. 

I know you don't think Iraq is better off now but I think they are. Its' only been a few years, they're going through so much change and that's normal. I've never heard of a country that has been in a perpetual civil war that lasted hundreds of years. Sooner or later it will settle. The people will be divided of course intellectually but that's not a bad thing, in fact that is very good. Because once you have a stable governent in place, and have a stable army and law enforcement in place that's when all the good stuff starts, especially with people so divided like Iraq. They don't all want to live like Shiites, or all like Sunni's... or all like Chaldo-Assyrians, you get my point. They'll make laws and evolve their society to be all inclusive... maybe it will be mostly Muslim ideals at first, but over time it will become more and more "westernized" and tolerant of everyone, and even better they will want better things for their people and this will mean diplomatic ties with other countries and international cooperation. I firmly believe this. And if 5,000 or 100,000 or even 1,000,0000 people have to die fighting for freedom over there, it's a freedom worth fighting for. Freedom of dictatorship, freedom from Islamic totalitarian regime, etc is so critical no price can be put on it... not in absolute dollars or lives lost fighting for it. I really hope it doesn't take a million lost souls, and I hope the US and Britian never walk way from Iraq and help these people as much as they can. Because a stable democracy in the heart of the Middle East, and with a strong democratic Lebanon coupled with an increasingly modernized Dubai and Saudi region, will mean very good things for the Middle East.

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2006, 06:04:54 AM »
Born. You're making incorrect assumptions.

The suspect with a supermodel sister IS NOT orginally muslim. He is white and converted to Muslim. His sister being a model has had absolutely nothing to do with it other than to show that these suspects come from all walks of life.

Watch this and tell me what you think? It's George Galloway on Sky speaking the truth about Rupert Murdoch's biased media. He's an MP in England. You might have seen him taking on th US Senate and ripping them apart.

I just wish you wouldn't swallow what your President tells you all the time. He's as extreme as the terrorists he proclaims to be eradicating.

'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2006, 04:54:55 PM »
i didn't realize israel still occupied parts of lebanon, if that's true that should not be the case. and as for those soldiers being ready to attack, they've only attacked hezbollah in a means to capture and disrupt the missle attacks which never stopped. their desire to live in peace is genuine, hezbollah is the trouble maker here.

you can call israel a terrorist, you an call palestine's hamas or hezbollah a terrorist, it really doesn't matter. what i want to focus on is the extremists, because i think extremists DO NOT respresent the will of the people, so you can call israel an extremist state and america or britian, but i think you would be mistaken.

let me further clarify for you....... the fact is hezzbollah is not a democratically ellected government of lebanon. they are a proxy of syria and iran to further the shiite movement and radical islam in general... so let's be very clear, they DO NOT do the will of the lebanese people. Israel, the United States and Britian, etc elected their leaders who then fullfil the people's agenda in one way or another. Hezbollah does not follow rules of engagement to minimize civilian casualties, they are accountable to no one and do as they wish when they wish, and they are not politically controlled by anyone except by proxy through syria and iran. The destruction of Israel and the West has been the goal of Hezbollah and Iran and radical Shiite clerics for a very long time and it still is. You can not negotiate with this. Iran and Syria know this very well which is why they call on Hezbollah to do their dirty work so they can politically wash their hands of it when it suits them.

The Israeli army is accountable to the Israeli government. The government need only to give the word and fighting is stopped 100% instantly. The political agenda of the Israeli government matters not to their military, they follow orders and report to leaders of their country. Hezbollah does whatever they want whenever they want, in spite of Lebanon's government and pushes THEIR OWN agenda (the shiite islamic radical movement) onto the people of lebanon.

The Israeli agenda is only to live in peace. The Radical Shiite Islamic agenda (of Syria and Iran through Hezbollah) is to seek the destruction of Israel and the West, destablize any form of democracy in the Middle East.

So who is the terrorist now? The Israeli forces who follow orders, adhere to their leaders wishes and only want peace? Or Hezbollah that holds a minority role in the Lebanese government and has hi-jacked a nation who kicked out Syria (a Shiite government) to propogate the Shiite agenda and not that of the Lebanese people and do so without regards to loss of civilian life both on Israel's side and that of their own people by using them as human shields?

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2006, 05:49:05 PM »
There really is not much point posting any more Born because you will always believe your own opinion as you're headstrong, naive and you think far too simplistically. I will post one final post, I know i won't change your mind but i hope it may educate others who perhaps are slightly more open minded, rational and not as taken by media propoganda that some people have. As Chomsky said 'Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media' and the public who believe every word.

I will call Israel a terrorist state. I will accuse them of war crimes. I will highlight the fact they ignore UN resolution after UN resolution. Why? Cos it's all true.

The inherent bias of the media is obvious to anyone capable of basic analysis. there are two sides to the conflict: israel (plus backers) and hezbollah (plus backers). Each side has its own viewpoint and its own narrative, explaining events and justifying actions. both viewpoints are controversial - i.e. they can and should be questioned, not simply accepted.

The mainstream media (and it really is irrelevant whether it is the bbc, sky, itv, cnn or whatever else), however, consistently take the israeli viewpoint as the objective view. The assumption in the media is that Israel's claims are true: that the Israeli military and political leadership desires peace; that its wars are defensive; that israel's enemies simply feel an irrational hatred towards the jewish state and have no possible legitimate political grievances.

You will have to look long and hard before you find a journalist in a mainstream media organisation suggesting than israel's goal is anything other than self-defence. the closest thing is Robert Fisk in the UK, and he remains the exception which proves the rule.

Criticism of Israel, like criticism of the US in general, is limited to bad eggs: soldiers who go too far, unrepresentative elements; at best we get noble intentions gone awry. try to find a bbc report which hints at israeli aggression or hatred of arabs. you can't: it's unspeakable in our media - despite comments such as:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff

" are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset

“One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
— Rabbi Yaacov Perrin

The same hateful rhetoric is present on the arab side - in the Iranian president's recent speeches, for example. however, the arabs' repugnant rhetoric is repeated and emphasised; Israel's is not.

I mean, last year we even had an orgy of 'Sharon: man of peace'. He is an out and out war criminal, found guilty by his own general staff. a man too extreme even for the Israeli military. And the party he founded is - God save us - a moderate centre party simply because there is an even more extreme bunch of monsters loyal to Netanyahu.

You also seem determined to forget history and forget that Hezbollah was created as a resistance to the Israel invastion. Putting history aside is a bizarre thing to do. To suggest an arbitrary cut off point in a conflict which has been ongoing for over half a century makes it factually incorrect. 

In such a conflict, neither side accepts that it is the instigator: Israel's attack is in response to Hezbollah's kidnapping; Hezbollah's kidnapping is in response to Israel's seizure of its fighters etc etc. the only reason to 'put history aside' is to create an entirely fictitious sense of when the whole thing started. Hezbollah was formed to fight an illegal occupation; in Hezbollah's eyes (rightly or wrongly) the occupation has not ended.

There are still approximately 4 million palestinian refugees who are denied the right of return; there are undemocratic regimes whose stated goal is to 'wipe the state of israel from the map'. you cannot put history to one side and assign blame on the basis of what has happened in the last couple of weeks.

as Howard Zinn says, if you don't know history, it's like you were born yesterday.

Anyway Born. I shall end my post on another quote which perhaps, after all these posts may explain how i feel about this whole situation. Its from Chomsky again:
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it.

And Born - Please google Shebaa Farms to find out why Hezbollah continue their attacks on Israel - an illegal occupying force.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2006, 06:07:17 PM »
I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.

There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2006, 06:20:31 PM »
I understand everything you just wrote, I really do. And I disagree with none of it (except that last line).

Both sides obviously "hate" the other but there is a big difference:

Israel targets militants and their weaponry or infrastructure and at times hits civilians. When that happens their governement publically apologize, their people cry foul and genuinely mourn the loss of life of innocent people.

Hezbollah, Hamas, etc targets anyone that is Israeli, and civilian or not, they celebrate their death.


There has been violence in that region for a very long time. Obviously resentment and hatred runs deep on both sides, but I think TOLERANCE is one thing the Israelis embrace and the Shiite radicals reject, especially in there here and now. I think the Israeli's desire for peace is genuine. Islamic radicals only want peace when it is convenient for them as a means to arm themselves and live to fight for another day.  And if you can prove otherwise I am very interested to hear why.

Please tell me that you aren't being serious. Israel has been killing indiscrimantly at a rate of 20:1 - 20 Lebs for every Israeli life PLUS if you look at it the majority of Lebanese life has been civilian and the majority of Israeli deaths have been military. You can't just make statements that are wrong. Just because they fit your version of what you believe is happening doesn't make them factually correct.

The Israeli's are far from tolerant. You said you read my post and agreed with it. So you will agree it's media bias that always puts Israels goals as the objective ones; peaceful nation; defending themselves when it is incorrect. They did and still do occupy Lebanon. They have no right to do so. Hezbollah's aims are to rid Lebanon of Israeli occuption.

And following all these deaths what has the aggressive Israeli state achieved? Nothing.

Two main objectives of Israel failed :-

a) get back their two soldiers
b) destroy Hezbollah

Neither has happened. No sign of the soldiers and Hezbollah have come out stronger than ever, with the Lebanese public behind. Even Fox News is acknowledging this

Israel only managed to destroy the south of lebanon and looking at the pictures on the news it looks like they lost the plot

Israel, one of the most advanced armies in the world failed to beat Hezbollah in a month of fighting. Even Netanyahu admitted it today and you know it's bad when he admits it. The ceasefire has done the Israelis a favour as they were getting nowhere fast. Apart from growing resentment from the world.

Sad thing is this will all happen again. Cyclical nature of violence.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2006, 06:23:42 PM »
One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2006, 06:28:30 PM »
One note ladies and gents on the Israeli factor:

The movie Munich is a good tell tale sign of how "tolerant" the Mossad and the Israeli government was back then and now. 

A big big objective of radical Islam (which is been around for centuries) is to destroy Israel, occupy Jerusalem, and rid the world of westernized society, i.e. U.S. and U.K. 

It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

I haven't seen Munich so i don't understand your point but Israel was founded on terrorism and continues to participate in state sponsored terrorism.

No offence but i'll continue to argue with fact and others can continue to argue with rhetoric and overblown, overstated myths and drama.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2006, 06:57:11 PM »
What the media reports to me, who they say won this fight, etc, etc... is all irellevant.

At the end of the day....

You have one civilized country that wants to live in peace and is forced to defend itself at times.

You have another "movement" of radical Islam that wants the unconditional destruction of these people.


You see it as Hezbollah's main objective is to get Israel out of Lebanon and that Israel started everything in the 50's or the 80's or whatever. I see it as a problem much bigger then that, where radical Islam has NEVER tolerated the christians or the jews. And that can be seen historically as well where how Turkey, Syria, Iraq, etc once had large Christian and Jewish populations and they were slaughtered one by one and forced to except Islam.



When Israel fights you see a bunch of people dressed up Israeli uniforms in Israeli military vehicles that has an Israeli flag on it. They hide behind no one, do not use innocent people caught in the middle as human shield and are 100% accountable to their leaders who are politically accountable to the rest of the world.

Hezbollah on the other hand does not value the life of innocent civilians. They do not dress in uninform, they hide amoung civilians, place missled on rooftops of CHRISTIANS or other lebanese civlilans in which they do not value their life, and store their weapons in mosques, schools, or places of mass civilians. Hezbollah is not accountable to anyone, and will do as they wish, whenever they wish with no political reprocussions.

Do you dispute any of that?

Clearly, if Israel wanted Hezbollah destroyed they only need to drop one bomb and they would be domolished. Clearly if Israel wanted their 2 soldiers back they only need to threaten the mass murder of millions of people.

But they do not operate on the same level that Hezbollah and Hamas do in which human life is not respected.

The root cause of all the turmoil in the middle east is NOT Israel's heavy-handed approach of self-defense which goes back 30,50 90 years or so... the root caused is by radical Islam and it's desire to conquer Jerusalem, and to force Islam on the world.

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2006, 06:59:36 PM »
It has never been an objective of Hezbollah. Their objective is to rid Lebanon of foreign occupiers.

You're wrong. Their objective is to force Shiite Islamic ideals on Lebanon through Iran and Syria which before Israel long controlled Lebanon.  Syria was forced to withdraw, there was relative peace between Lebanon and Israel, and Hezbollah's objective became propogating the Shiite Radical Movement that Syria could no longer pursue.

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2006, 07:22:10 PM »
Whatever, I basically agreed with you on the Israel/terrorist idea. 

Hezbollah was never created as an auxiliary to the Lebanese defense forces, no matter how limited they were.  Hezbollah, just like Hamas, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, Al Qaeda, etc were created to combat Israel and the west.  They are "political" groups aimed at terrorizing non Islamic states for their own selfish, horrifying ideals. 


Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2006, 07:38:51 PM »
If Hezbollah were bankrolled to the tune of millions and millions of American dollars they would hide behind no one as well. What a ridiculous statement to make. Freedom fighters, terrorists, whatever you want to call them, fight guerilla warfare because this is the only way they can fight.

And please understand i am not condoning what either side does. I will not however accept that there is only one evil in this war. Israel is as much responsible as anyone else. Until this is accepted and t hey are forced, by global means (well by the US because they ignore what the UN say to them) to adhere to peaceful resolutions. To stop occupying land that is not theirs, there will be no resolution and we will be the ones to suffer.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2006, 07:43:33 PM »
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.
'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Offline RadRides

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2006, 07:52:26 PM »
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.

That's why France, Britain, Spain, and parts of the EU populations of Muslims are on the rise.  I can understand your reasoning.  The UK media has always been against US foreign policy, they ridicule Tony Blair, and are so far on the left of things, they can't wipe their own arses.  The US is just as lucky to have morons complain and bark like the BBC and other's.  Oh well, we'll never agree.   :bigarmhug:

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2006, 07:57:53 PM »
By the way, you should stop with the emotive talk of the world becoming Islam. Its hysterical nonsense designed to create fear in the masses to control them.

That's why France, Britain, Spain, and parts of the EU populations of Muslims are on the rise.  I can understand your reasoning.  The UK media has always been against US foreign policy, they ridicule Tony Blair, and are so far on the left of things, they can't wipe their own arses.  The US is just as lucky to have morons complain and bark like the BBC and other's.  Oh well, we'll never agree.   :bigarmhug:

You clearly don't talk from experiencing our media. They are not left wing at all. Read my post a few posts above. We have very few who directly critcise Israel. We do however have a general public that perhaps doesn't swallow propganda like the Americans do. If you're grateful for media like the digustingly right wing Fox then i pity you.

Anyway i shall leave it for tonight as it's getting late.

'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2006, 08:26:06 PM »
Radrides hit it EXACTLY on the head.

Why is france leading this international coalition force with Italy in the mix of things as well?

Was there not a riot in France recently in where thousands of young muslim men who were not able to find work and were upset at the government completely torched and ruined Paris and held france under seige for like a month?

I did a quick search and found this article.
http://www.montanasnews.com/articles.php?mode=view&id=2884

The rest of the world is realizing this is not just a Israel VS radical Islam problem.... it's a worldwide problem not because Muslim people are immigrating in mass numbers to western countries, but because the RADICAL elements of islam is coming with them.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 08:27:54 PM by Born2Drv »

Offline Whatever

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2006, 05:13:03 AM »
I don't wish to offend you Born but you're so obssessed with crowing about how muslim extremists and how they will take over the world - keep shouting it at me as you can't see anything else so i'm going to leave it because in all your posts you have had minimal fact and maximum emotive rhetoric with absolutely no basis.

I know very well about the Paris riots but thanks for the link. There is social unrest in many countries, with many religions. The fighting in Paris was not because of religion but because of the social standing of many young Parisians - lack of jobs, discrimination etc. Them being Muslim was secondary, not the primary reason but keep seeing what you want to see.

You're reactionary, extreme and hysterical. Just how your government want you. God forbid you ever inform yourself in a rational, non-biased matter and think for yourself rather than falling for the climate of fear and prejudice that the media have created.

'...here's Makalele. They can break here Chelsea. This could be the moment. Frank Lampard for Chelsea. It's Carvalho to his right. Lampard for the title...Lampard! It's 2-0, it's Chelsea's Championship and fifty years of waiting have come to an end...' 30th April 2005 - Reebok Stadium

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2006, 11:19:01 AM »
 .... and until you open your eyes and see what's really going on, there is no convinving you either :)  How many bombs will have to explode in your subways .... how many planes have to be crashed for you to realize the radical islamic movement has come to your town and is spreading worldwide? You are the one that needs a history lesson. These people have been fighting for over a thousand years, this is not a new phenomenon. History records 2-3 dark periods of the Koran where these "holy texts" had dissapeared and no one knew where they were, depending who you ask. Many historians believe that today's modern Koran has been manipulated by various dictators at the time, and seeded with violent materials in order incite riot and force obedience. The Koran is not a book of peace, it is a book of violence and control.

Spend some time on this website: http://prophetofdoom.net/

Tabari IX:69     “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Qur’an 2:191     “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Tabari VII:97     “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”

Bukhari:V1B1N6     “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”

YOU are the one that needs to become educated, to read history, read how and why these people justify murder, and that they've murdered and pillaged MILLIONS over the years, many christians and jews in the name of allah. These people only know one way to live --- force Islam on others or murder them. They can not live peacefully with anyone who is not muslim. They can not even live peacefully with other muslisms.

Offline MXJSPH

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2006, 12:55:23 PM »
"What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star? Thus asks the last man, and he blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the last man, who makes everything small"

Friedrich Nietzsche

civilisedviolence.wordpress.com

Offline charlie

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2006, 11:32:34 AM »
Mjay

Which ones Bush the smoking monkey or the grinning monkey?

 :mrgreen:

Offline charlie

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2006, 12:20:36 PM »
This Islamaphobia being spread by the media and governments is a joke.
They did the same with communism in the 50's and sixties, with the domino theory and the rest of the crap they went on about.

They had people thinking that they were on the verge of being attacked by Russia, and even ran duck and cover commercials, like getting under a desk was gonna protect you in the case of a thermonuclear war, give me a break, and people really bought into that bullsh*t.

Now communism isn't a threat they've created a new one in "radical islam", "terrorism", and they give everything a catchy title "operation freedom", "infinite justice".
They sound like ready made film titles for Shwarzenegger or Segal or someone.

The world has been living with the threat of terrorism for decades upon decades, planes were regularly being hijacked and blown up back in the 70's and 80's.
So are we to believe that this is a new phenomenon thats just gripped us.
Come on.

Yes there are terrorists out there, yes they will no doubt strike again.

While were on the subject of history look back at history and you will see, In the end the only way Al Qaeda or whoever else is out there will be stopped is when the Government of the US or some intermediary on their behalf sits down and does a deal or negotiates with them.
It happened with the ANC, the South African Government were adamant they wouldnt negotiate with them because they were a terrorist organisation, it happened with the IRA, the British Government were adamant they wouldnt negotiate with them they were a terrorist organisation, it even happened with the PLO Israel's most hated terrorist group at one time now reffered to as a "partner for peace".
Even the Libyans, Colnel Gaddaffi was as hated by the US and Britain as Osama Bin Laden, now the West are doing ready to open up and do business with him.

If you want to know how Al Qaeda will be defeated, there it is.
It's niave to think otherwise.
As for terrorism that will never end as long as there are people, someone will have a grudge.
 :mrgreen:

Sheik Abdul Bin Fallafel

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Re: A NEW WAR
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2006, 05:19:12 PM »
islamaphobia? you of all poeple should know better. you're assyrian are you not? the middle east was a majority of christians and now it is a majority of islam... they didn't "convert" us by going around and knocking on doors and asking us if we know who god is like those jehova witness robots do.... they did it by telling people they either had to accept islam or be murdered --- of course not before raping and torturing them first....

since when have muslisms been peaceful? since when have the islamic people been tolerant of other cultures and religions? for god sakes these people (animals I call them) can't even get along with eachother... one sect of islam fighting another.... all they know how to do is fight and cause more misery and destruction.... the reason lebanon was able to form some sort of stable democracy in the first place is because people there are not fanatics and there is a mix of all cultures....

 if aliens ever invaded our planet, i hope they land in the middle east ---- at least humanity would have a fighting chance....  then again if i had the choice of becoming an alien slave or a muslim, i'd take the first shuttle over to the mothership myself.

 

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