Author Topic: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?  (Read 34194 times)

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Offline Cookie

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ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« on: May 17, 2006, 10:41:51 PM »
I have a question for all the knowledgeable individuals of the forum:

Why must we differentiate between Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriac?

May I remind you all that I am not here to start bloodshed or colossal chaos; I am quite interested for a more unambiguous answer.  I am sure we can all discuss this topic in a mature manner, as everyone here is far from immature and can understand the concept of a calm, clean discussion and if I may say so, not a debate!

If you find this question has been already posted and is excessive for your taste, than may I suggest that you carry on with your day and respond to one of the other various topics for your discussion pleasure.  Thank you kindly for your time it is much appreciated.

Sincerely,
Nahren
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 12:14:52 AM by Cookie »


'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.'-- Albert Einstein

Offline Claridy

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 10:53:02 PM »
Good question, I'm 2 out of the 3.  So it's all gravy to me.  I'm sure if you go way back into my ancestroy, I'm all 3.  Kheena certain people like to think that they are all pure 100% down to the core 1 of those 3 solid.  Like time hasn't existed for a million years and they haven't been mixed a million times.  Go figure.
"Apologetics only leads the "horse" to the water. Only the Holy Spirit can make him drink."

"Judgement Day is not going to be so much God chasing down errant sinners and throwing them into hell, but rather God simply giving men what they have already chosen beforehand - either an eternity of the darkness they spent their lives hiding in or an eternity of the Light they spent their lives seeking out. -unknown"

Offline Cookie

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 10:58:59 PM »
Thank you for enjoying the question and for your response Claridy well put!!  I, myself am two out of the three "technically speaking", but again, as I am hoping more responses will accumulate, I will go more in depth of why I asked this question.
'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.'-- Albert Einstein

Offline MikesBike

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 11:11:42 PM »
I tend to agree with you guys.  I'm only one of the three, but who knows where my (or anyone elses) ancestry lies anyways?
Mike, the bike messenger

Offline Cookie

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 11:19:33 PM »
Hello MikesBike, very nice to hear this thank you for your response.  You're correct, it's hard to trace ancestry unless one is fortunate enough to have such a well planned out family tree to look up genereations prior to his/hers and generations before that.
'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.'-- Albert Einstein

Offline Renee

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 11:51:31 PM »
The questioning of original ethnicity is an argument that can be applied to all human beings.

Personally speaking, I think the differentiation occurs due to a lack of understanding and knowledge, and as such the 'groups' are differentiated along many lines...religion, country, region...when the ethnicity is one and the same.

It's time for all our youth to become educated as to our ancestry and start to break down the walls of difference that have been built up over the centuries. To educate ourselves and understand what 'Assyrian' is, what "Chaldean' is and what 'Syriac' is...to understand ethnicity and ancestry.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 11:54:36 PM by Renee »

Offline Cookie

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2006, 12:15:08 AM »
Renee, great answer and thank you for your input.  I do understand and agree with what you're saying, ethnicity is applied to all humans, and I'm not saying ONLY Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriac, differentiate, but to start somewhere, I wanted to look closer to home, and here we are. 

Lack of understanding is a good way to look at it, I myself always ask many questions and do my best not to insult anyone when asking so.  There is youth out there that is trying to learn about their backgrounds, but what I may be thinking the problem is, and this is what I had a problem with when I was younger, was the amount of information and everyone’s interpretation of "history and truth". 

If you choose to believe something and you are informed that you are gravely mistaken, then what, how can you tell fact from fiction?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 12:17:56 AM by Cookie »
'The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.'-- Albert Einstein

Offline Had

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2006, 12:49:42 AM »
If you go back in time, every single person in the world has mixed ancestry.  That doesn't mean an English person is going to start calling himself English/Anglo/Saxon/Norman/Viking. Or a Persian person tells people he is Persian/Medean/Elamite/blablabla. :blink:

You gotta choose.  Just like my parents chose for me one name, and if I don't like it I go to the courts and change it officially to the one I like more.  But I don't attach the other name I like to the first one with a slash.  It doesn't work like that.  Human beings realised early on that this method was easier for record-keeping, and takes out confusion. 

Sorry if I'm sounding like a smart-ass, but this whole slash terminology to me is unnecessarily confusing, and dividing in the long run.  If its a question of ancestry, no1 is pure, so pick a heritage already and move on.

To answer Cookie, the fact that the names are different is enough to reveal that all three are different.  At least, it reveals that these are originally the same group of people who don't agree on names.  And if they don't agree on this simple matter, how could they make in common more important issues?

Offline Nina

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2006, 12:51:09 AM »
Dear Nahren/Cookie

There's no difference between Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac as a people despite what we may hear.We are all one and from the same land.

We should however differentiate between a nationality and a religious denomination.This is where people are getting confused and this is where all the accumulated centuries of rifts made people forget their origins and stick to what they have come used to as a name,sometimes not even knowing why they say what they say.
ASSYRIA not a mere name but a state of mind,existence,history and identity

Offline Claridy

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2006, 01:12:30 AM »
Quote
Hello MikesBike, very nice to hear this thank you for your response.  You're correct, it's hard to trace ancestry unless one is fortunate enough to have such a well planned out family tree to look up genereations prior to his/hers and generations before that.

Too bad we aren't like the Mormons who keep record, sorry I was driving through Utah just a few days ago.  :giggle:

On another note,

Quote
Sorry if I'm sounding like a smart-ass, but this whole slash terminology to me is unnecessarily confusing, and dividing in the long run.  If its a question of ancestry, no1 is pure, so pick a heritage already and move on.

How do you pick?  I'm a mixed breed.  How can I just say I'm one thing over another?  Not everyone is so decisive either.  It cracks me up when Assyrians do this, oh you are baznayta, you aren't good enough for us.  Or you are that, whatever it is.  You are still Assyrian, but they are still riding high on their horses with no regard.  There is division amongst Assyrians, I've seen it.  And now to confuse the issue even more, Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac???  My goodness people!  We are human beings.  What's up with the divisions?  I've said it before, it didn't get us anywhere back when we lost our Country and it aint going to get us no where now.....PRIDE is the worst sin you can possibly have.  United we stand, divided we will fall, again, and again, and agian.

Okay, I'm done.   :mrgreen:
"Apologetics only leads the "horse" to the water. Only the Holy Spirit can make him drink."

"Judgement Day is not going to be so much God chasing down errant sinners and throwing them into hell, but rather God simply giving men what they have already chosen beforehand - either an eternity of the darkness they spent their lives hiding in or an eternity of the Light they spent their lives seeking out. -unknown"

Offline Had

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2006, 01:44:48 AM »
How do you pick?  I'm a mixed breed.  How can I just say I'm one thing over another?  Not everyone is so decisive either.  It cracks me up when Assyrians do this, oh you are baznayta, you aren't good enough for us.  Or you are that, whatever it is.  You are still Assyrian, but they are still riding high on their horses with no regard.  There is division amongst Assyrians, I've seen it.  And now to confuse the issue even more, Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac???  My goodness people!  We are human beings.  What's up with the divisions?  I've said it before, it didn't get us anywhere back when we lost our Country and it aint going to get us no where now.....PRIDE is the worst sin you can possibly have.  United we stand, divided we will fall, again, and again, and agian.

Okay, I'm done.   :mrgreen:

First you say we can't pick.  Then you call all these different labels confusing, and we are human beings.  If we are all human beings, there is no such thing as 'mixed breed', right?  What else do you propose?  Besides talking about pride I mean.

The whole world is labelled this way: there are Italians, Arabs, Greeks, Persians, etc, .  All these ethnic designations were mentioned (in fact began)  in the bible, I don't know that identifying ones heritage constitutes arrogance.

By the way, what do you consider 'mixed breed'?  I don't see these groups as different ancestry-wise.  The difference between them historically is the church they chose to go to in the past.  I myself am only 25% nestorian assyrian if you wanna get technical.  The rest is mixed with the other two.

Offline shamirum

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2006, 01:51:15 AM »
I'll try to tell you why I think it's important for *some* of us to differentiate: because no one wants to "give in" to the other. Assyrians still want to be the "original" Assyrians because they're too stubborn to give up some supposed purity. They want all Chaldeans and Syriacs to surrender in some sort of way, and claim their true heritage (as if being Assyrian is so true in itself). Chaldeans don't want to have anything to do with Assyrians because they'd like to ignore the fact that they can't trace their history farther than half a millennia (if even that). In fact, they feel the same way about Assyrians that Assyrians feel about them, they want a surrender and admission of unoriginality. I can't say much about Syriacs, except that just like the others, they are extremely focused on their church as a distinguishing factor, and claim of genuineness.

Please keep in mind, I am over-generalizing above on purpose. I am obviously a product of this "ethnicity," and yet since I was young, my parents have taught me how unimportant it is to differentiate among us. It was only a few years ago, when someone was bad-mouthing a Chaldean and the Church, that I even realized there was a possibility of difference. In all of my trips to Michigan to visit Assyrian/Chaldean relatives, we always referred to one another as "soorayeh" and nothing more. Our dialects were different, sure, but heck, I have a hard time understanding A****nayeh and Jilwayeh, and they're supposed to be closer to me (tribal and ethnic-wise)? I don't think so. We're all closer than we think.

Offline Claridy

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2006, 10:02:51 AM »
Thanks Shamirum, that's exactly how I think.  Had, that's what I'm trying to say through out all my ramblings.  I was making a point.  I'm mixed in the sense that I even remember my Mother telling me how her Grandmother wasn't even Assyrian.  I don't even know what village they brought her from, what she was.  Turkish is a probability.  My Grandfather on my Dad's side was blonde.  My Dad was blonde as a child.  My eldest sister was blonde.  And when I say blonde, I mean cotton white hair.  Who knows what I am.  I'm Assyrian.  That's all I say.  I can go to Detroit where my Aunt (Dad's side) lives and say I'm Chaldean just like her children.  They don't even say they are Assyrian, but they have Assyrian blood in them.  Most of the time, people don't even guess I'm Assyrian.  That includes my own people. 

We are human.  No black, no white, no riza, no shourba.  Don't distinguish, don't be prejudice.  Let's all accept one another,  no matter what because we call ourselves followers of Christ.  We are one.  Made in God's Image.  Call yourself (not you in general, anyone with this mentality) what you want, but get rid of that pride that says we are original and oh so genuine.  We aren't.   
"Apologetics only leads the "horse" to the water. Only the Holy Spirit can make him drink."

"Judgement Day is not going to be so much God chasing down errant sinners and throwing them into hell, but rather God simply giving men what they have already chosen beforehand - either an eternity of the darkness they spent their lives hiding in or an eternity of the Light they spent their lives seeking out. -unknown"

Offline Robert Khnanisho

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2006, 10:11:36 AM »
That's what I love about God, he gave us free will to do whatever we want.

Could or would somebody call themselves Chaldean if it was not for the Roman Catholic Church?

Could or would somebody call themselves Syriac if it was not for the Syriac Orthodox Church?

Regardless of what Church or Nation I am born in, my family history and culture is that of an Assyrian. There was nothing I could do to make it different, I was born Assyrian that's who I am.

Offline chaldean

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2006, 10:49:26 AM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.
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Offline Robert Khnanisho

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2006, 11:07:51 AM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.

I don't know about saying Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history.

There has always been Assyrian people and the Church of the East but the idea of being Chaldean and having a Chaldean Catholic Church was created by the Roman Church in 1552 after they demolished our Assyrian Church and people.

I have a feeling this will get into a history lesson if I keep going.

The only difference in Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac is the Church that you belong to.

Assyrian = Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
Chaldean = Chaldean Catholic Church (In submission to Roman Catholic Church)
Syriac = Syriac Orthodox Church

Both Chaldeans and Syriacs are Churche who if they look into history will see that their forefathers were once members of the Church of the East, they are the ones who have divided (without getting into too much detail).


Offline Hookah

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2006, 01:01:41 PM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.

I don't know about saying Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history.

There has always been Assyrian people and the Church of the East but the idea of being Chaldean and having a Chaldean Catholic Church was created by the Roman Church in 1552 after they demolished our Assyrian Church and people.

I have a feeling this will get into a history lesson if I keep going.

The only difference in Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac is the Church that you belong to.

Assyrian = Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
Chaldean = Chaldean Catholic Church (In submission to Roman Catholic Church)
Syriac = Syriac Orthodox Church

Both Chaldeans and Syriacs are Churche who if they look into history will see that their forefathers were once members of the Church of the East, they are the ones who have divided (without getting into too much detail).



Noor is right.  Our churches have been both our biggest blessing and our biggest burden.  If we hadn't rallied around the church, we (assyrians) would have probably assimilated into other cultures by now i.e.  arab, persian, turkish.  The only reason we are around and still calling ourselves assyrian is because of our churches.  At the same time there have been plenty of people who have used religion to divide us.  Like the Roman Catholic church calling our Catholic following people chaldeans, after an ancient group of middle eastern people who had nothing to do with us. Simply because they wanted to expand their power base.  Its also evident in the Syriac church, where some bishops rearranged our alphabet, added an O at the end of every word and said that syriacs are different from us because they speak a different language, which is complete bs.  Like Shamirum said, people differentiate because they want to feel superior to each other and because our churches are run by mortal men who can be swayed by power, influence, and money.  Then you add political wrangling into the mix and as they say, "silla hafla." The only difference between us is style of funny hat our respective priests wear on sundays.  The same blood flows through all of us.

Offline aka_Atour

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2006, 02:43:02 PM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.

I don't know about saying Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history.

There has always been Assyrian people and the Church of the East but the idea of being Chaldean and having a Chaldean Catholic Church was created by the Roman Church in 1552 after they demolished our Assyrian Church and people.

I have a feeling this will get into a history lesson if I keep going.

The only difference in Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac is the Church that you belong to.

Assyrian = Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
Chaldean = Chaldean Catholic Church (In submission to Roman Catholic Church)
Syriac = Syriac Orthodox Church

Both Chaldeans and Syriacs are Churche who if they look into history will see that their forefathers were once members of the Church of the East, they are the ones who have divided (without getting into too much detail).


You left out the Ancient Church of the East.

Offline Senator_Danavi

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2006, 04:38:42 PM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.

I don't know about saying Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history.

There has always been Assyrian people and the Church of the East but the idea of being Chaldean and having a Chaldean Catholic Church was created by the Roman Church in 1552 after they demolished our Assyrian Church and people.

I have a feeling this will get into a history lesson if I keep going.

The only difference in Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac is the Church that you belong to.

Assyrian = Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
Chaldean = Chaldean Catholic Church (In submission to Roman Catholic Church)
Syriac = Syriac Orthodox Church

Both Chaldeans and Syriacs are Churche who if they look into history will see that their forefathers were once members of the Church of the East, they are the ones who have divided (without getting into too much detail).



Actually, the Church of the East did not return to the Council of Ephesus (after Council of Nicea) thus separating themselves from the "One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church."

At this time, the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic Churches were still part of this "One Church," when the Church of the East (Assyrian Rite, Chaldean Rite, and Ancient Rite) left and instigated the first division within the one united church.

I support the stance the COE took back in 431 AD, however, let us not confuse which entity really left.

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Offline MikesBike

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2006, 05:10:30 PM »
Our Churches have ruined our identity throughout history. Our communities were build on our religion, making the church very powerful. Thus, whatever the  Church says, we had to believe. That is why you see so many Chaldeans never heard the word Assyrian.

I agree with this to a point.  I would extend this to pretty much every Church though, as for example the Irish Catholics versus the English Protestants, or the predominantly Catholic Sicilians wanting to cede from the rest of Italy.  It's definitely a worldwide trend that other cultures share.
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Offline Enki

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2006, 05:34:13 PM »
Heres my beef.

Lets stop blaming the churchs. Lets stop blaming others. Its our own fault. Ignorance is the leading factor of our division. Nobody wants to go and read up on the  history. As many people from the Chaldean Church HOW their church evolved they couldn't tell you.

When you pose a question like how you did here:

Quote
ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?

You automatically differentiate the bunch. I'm not saying you are doing it but I'm saying as soon as we start labeling others by church, it instills the concept, or idea, that Chaldean and Assyrian are different because of the little '/' and same with Syriac.

When we start using them without mentioning church, we get mixed up. Which is why whenever I refer to Assyrians and want to break them by church I say 'Nestorians, Chaldeans, Syriacs, Ancient Church, Jacobite'

When we start using ETHNIC names like Assyrian beside RELIGIOUS identifiers like Chaldean or Syriac, we automatically give validiation(?) that those words are all ETHNIC rather than RELIGIOUS.

------------------------

Someone mentioned they are 2 of the 3. Well that just means you come from 2 of the three churches. You are still the 1 which is Assyrian. Your churches may be different, but your national identity would always be Assyrian.

I'm from the Syriac Orthodox Church. I'm also a member of the Assyrian Church of the East. And I sometimes will go to the Chaldean Church. Makes no difference.

In the end those are all Assyrian churches.

Here's a perfect example. The Anglican church accross the street from me and the Catholic church beside it have two things in common. They're both Canadian. Why? Because they both house the people of Canada.....CANADIANS.

If we had a state, we'd be known as Assyrians. Simple. Done. Case dismissed.
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Offline Senator_Danavi

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2006, 06:00:34 PM »
Riza,

You need to understand what self-identification means.  Self-identification has less to do with "historic facts" and more with "current cultural affiliations."

To argue that one origins points to his identity is blatantly wrong and a misconception that is rampant in our current Nation.  For hundreds of years, our people have been stubborn and debating over this name issue.  The "Nestorian" Assyrians brand the rest of our Nation as Assyrians as according to history.  Whereas Chaldeans insist that they feel more Chaldean than Assyrian and wish to remain a distinct ethnic group, althought derived from religious division. 

There has been no success with these historic claims and attempting to forcefully rid groups within our Nation from their identity.  You yourself in a differerent post agreed with identity and church:

What makes us who we are today is our identity with the Church.

From political science and logic, we learn that if a particular strategy isn't working we must adopt another.  For hundreds of years, our ancestors dwelt on historic rights to counter self-identification and nation shifting to no avail.  Will you follow in their footsteps or embrace our brothers and sisters who identify themselves with their church that is so integral to their lives and incorporate them in our Nation's name.

God Bless!!


Offline Enki

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2006, 06:55:46 PM »
To an extent your argument is valid. But when the Chaldean church claims its origins from the ancient Babylonian province of Chaldea, when you and I both know that the term 'Chaldean' was put in by the Pope of Rome in 1551 and later made official in 1800 something, then you know that there is some wrong information and inacuracy there.

But hey, if a Chaldean church member wishes to be called something else, all you and I can do is teach them their history. If they wish to remain a Chaldean, so be it. But what is that person's goal? A free 'Chaldea'? Or will they work for the free Assyria that we all seek? If they are of the later, they can be called any name they want.

Quote
Will you follow in their footsteps or embrace our brothers and sisters who identify themselves with their church that is so integral to their lives and incorporate them in our Nation's name.

I will embrace any man, woman, or child that works for the nation of Assyria. Be it Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Pagen, Buddhist, whatever. If they are working for Assyria., then they are in good books with me. Because only when Assyria is formed will we then have a legitmate name to identify us with.....the people of Assyria; the Assyrians!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 07:05:28 PM by riza o shourba »
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Offline Renee

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2006, 07:23:39 PM »
Senator,

By your argument, if I had grown up with Jamaicans, engaged in their cultural norms, identified with this culture, then I could claim their ethnicity as my own, dispite the fact that biologically, historically and in every other possible way, I am not Jamaican.

There would be no ligitimising my personal identification...by what means would it be? Word-of-mouth? I may adamantly refuse to identify myself as anything other than Jamaican, but how would I justify this identification/claim?

Now take this one step further, and identify your religious demonination as your cultural one, as your ethnicity...and you have even fewer legs to stand on...especially when your goal is unity. By identifying the divisions and slashing a new term, i.e. Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac...you are killing the ethnicity of all these groups as you're highlighting their differences but stipulating that they are the same. Ethnicity is about identifying the commonalities.

Let's refer to the term Ethnic

"Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage."

Well, I ask...of these 3 groupings...what do they share in common that is distinctive? It is not their religious denomination, that is clear to see with the differentiation. So I ask, what DO they share in common that is distinctive from other ethnicities?

Offline Robert Khnanisho

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2006, 08:06:09 PM »
Actually, the Church of the East did not return to the Council of Ephesus (after Council of Nicea) thus separating themselves from the "One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church."

At this time, the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic Churches were still part of this "One Church," when the Church of the East (Assyrian Rite, Chaldean Rite, and Ancient Rite) left and instigated the first division within the one united church.

I support the stance the COE took back in 431 AD, however, let us not confuse which entity really left.

God Bless!!!

Oh bro that comment reallly tested me.

ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, THAT WE WERE THE ONES WHO REALLY LEFT?

Go and read your history books, then go and read them in context of the WHOLE situation that was going on back then. And then go and ask your family members why OUR beloved Mar Eshai Shimun did not attend the VATICAN II Council?

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2006, 08:25:27 PM »
rob go and read the sunhados of mar dadisho in 424AD and read the decision they chose there which ultimately lead to them not attending the council of ephesis in 431AD...remember the decision of mar dadisho was seven years prior to ephesis and nowhere in the sunhados does it state that the decision was dogmatic.

come back with your "facts" and we can discuss further.

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2006, 08:27:53 PM »
 :offtopic:

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2006, 08:35:19 PM »
renee it is the basis of this whole topic...make sure you know what ur talking about before accusing others of being off topic.

Offline Robert Khnanisho

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2006, 08:37:52 PM »
come back with your "facts" and we can discuss further.

I can't bro, your the only one with the facts remember?

I remeber a beloved Patriarch once saying the further we stay away from Rome the better. Take a guess who.

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2006, 08:41:11 PM »
you remember him saying that ? pitty you werent born back then so i dunno how your memory can go beyond your birth...first time ive heard it happen.

i seriously want you to go and read the sunhadoos of mar dadisho 424AD and answer the questions i posed to you, i think you'll learn from it.

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2006, 08:51:18 PM »
Okay I'll do it just for you.

And I want you seriously go and find out which Patriarch of the ACOE said;

The further we stay away from Rome the better.

That Rome should be coming to him because he is the Patriarch of the Mother of all Churches.

Also give me the names of the 2 Bishops of the Roman Church who came to the ACOE because they knew the ACOE was the Mother of all Churches.

Then tell me how much the Vatican got scared and saw him as a Threat.

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2006, 08:56:44 PM »
any links...or you just pasting what "others" have told you ?

you can find my sunhados of mar dadisho 424AD reference through
"SO, p. 51. The English translation by M. J. Birnie"

ask your parish priest he should have this. also ide like to see where you have sourced your information from.


Offline shamirum

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2006, 08:59:21 PM »

Let's refer to the term Ethnic

"Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage."

Well, I ask...of these 3 groupings...what do they share in common that is distinctive? It is not their religious denomination, that is clear to see with the differentiation. So I ask, what DO they share in common that is distinctive from other ethnicities?

First it is important to note that DNA (biological heredity in its most specific terms) can not distinguish your ethnic identity (nor race). Human DNA is so similar, that analyzing it (even extensively) would not be able to tell us that one woman is from Greece while the other is from Russia (heck, it's usually impossible to distinguish their DNA from a woman from Japan). Point being, that yes, if you grew up in Jamaica, you could claim a part of your identity as being Jamaican, even if you could clearly see that you didn’t “look” like most Jamaicans.

Another important note is the definition for "ethnic" that you used; notice how it says sharing this OR that. You don't have to share ALL of the above to be ONE ethnic group. Now we Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Syriacs share something that other people near us (including Armenians, Turks, and Kurds) don't, and those are: linguistic and cultural heritages. We speak the same language. We call it "soored" for a reason, while Turks speak Turkish and Kurds speak Kurdish, Arabs speak Arabic, Jews speak Hebrew, and Armenians speak Armenian. Sure, Assyrians call their language "Assyrian," and Chaldeans call it "Chaldean," and Syriacs call it "Syriac," but it is still all Neo-Aramaic, and a version that no other ethnic group but ours speaks. Our cultural traditions, even religious ones, distinguish us from neighboring groups. We ARE one people, regardless of who wants to admit it or not. Joining together is not the act of a traitor, but an act of acceptance and love of one's identity.

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2006, 09:02:56 PM »

The only difference in Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac is the Church that you belong to.

Assyrian = Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
Chaldean = Chaldean Catholic Church (In submission to Roman Catholic Church)
Syriac = Syriac Orthodox Church


While generally true, this is not always the case. In fact, I myself work as an example of when this is not a valid assumption. There are many members of our group that refer to themselves as "Assyrian" but have grown up in the Roman Catholic Church (and no, not in relation to the Chaldean Rite). I am not talking about recent converts, I am talking about generations and generations of Assyrians that have no ties to the supposed "Assyrian" church (Assyrian COE or Ancient COE). I just wanted to make that point because it's important to note that MANY people claim the Assyrian heritage and culture as their own, without being members of that specific church.

Offline Robert Khnanisho

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Re: ASSYRIANS/CHALDEANS/SYRIACS... Why differentiate?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2006, 09:04:52 PM »
any links...or you just pasting what "others" have told you ?

you can find my sunhados of mar dadisho 424AD reference through
"SO, p. 51. The English translation by M. J. Birnie"

ask your parish priest he should have this. also ide like to see where you have sourced your information from.



Kheena cmon Pete, you know about everything in our Church and exactly what's going on. If you get stuck on finding out then I'll give you a clue.

 

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