Author Topic: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?  (Read 5263 times)

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Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2016, 03:07:33 AM »
Yes, and it doesn't mean that he existed for sure. We don't have to be so absolute. And when did I exactly say that Jesus doesn't exist? All I said was that I question his existence.

You didn't say he didn't exist. There is more than enough evidence available to say he did exist but you argued that that is not good enough on the grounds of the absence of evidence from the time Jesus was breathing. That logic necessitates that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.


Actually, there are atheists who deny his existence and are objective historians. Yes, there always will be "anti-theists" who vehemently try to deny his existence purely in the name of atheism (like that website I linked earlier), just the same way there would be Christians who would even state "proof" that Jesus did in fact did miracles, rise from the dead, etc. Radical perspectives will be always be present.

There really aren't any around. That's why that quote I posted was written and referenced.


I know. All I said was that I can at least see myself agreeing with it.

Your also saying that historians disagree about it, which is what our comments are mostly focused around and which is why I haven't moved on from this yet.


Okay, enough with these assumptions. I thought we got along well where we simply agreed to disagree in other disputes on this forum. Not sure why you're being personal and defensive all of a sudden. I can also say that you're a Christian apologist, and that if you weren't raised a Christian you probably would be agreeing with me. But I don't jump to these assumptions.

Not at all. I don't mean to be rude (I know I was) but your not providing reasons for your claim which leads me to believe there's bias. The existence of conflicting claims is not a reason to doubt; conflicting claims do not equate to conflicting evidence. It's flying in the face of what the experts say and I've shown you both evidence and the judgement of scholars, but your responses are more along the lines of asserting that the untrue "The Christ Myth Theory" is taken seriously by academics and that there is reasonable doubt regarding Jesus' historicity by scholars.

If someone said the same about Muhammad I would likewise disagree strongly because I know there's strong enough evidence to prove he existed and I know what the academic consensus is. I could find many people who deny either/both Jesus and Muhammad existed, and despite how much I wish the latter was true, these people would not be scholars.


To reiterate: Because Josephus and Tacitus lived 30-50 years after Jesus, his existence would lose credibility since they were not around his time, as were 99.9% of the people who spoke of him. Now nobody's saying that he didn't exist for sure, but he won't be on the same level of Cleopatra, Alexander, Nero, etc. That's my little stance. Not sure why it's contentious.

Josephus was born 4-8 years after Jesus died Tacitus was born 23-27 years after Jesus died: Josephus and Tacitus were more likely to have been born around 4 and 23 years after Jesus respectively. They wrote about Jesus and his followers who included people would have known Jesus personally. Those who knew Jesus personally would have most likely been the leaders of Jesus' followers. The most important notion is that just because they were born after Jesus, it doesn't make their testimonies weak. If that was a measure that was consistently applied, we would lose a massive chunk of known and established historical facts.


It's not fully maintained. Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified. And most Assyrians can't even read or write in Assyrian...

If your talking about Assyrians from Kurdish communities where there is virtually no Assyrian community, then that seems natural. Otherwise, it doesn't sound right if they are any more Kurdified than most other Assyrians.
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Offline Shahin

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2016, 06:42:26 AM »
****, how do you know?

How do I know ? It's as simple as that: Assyrians from Turkey own today 3 channels:
SuroyoTV(Dawronoye), SuryoyoSAT (Aramean nationalists) & AssyriaTV.
These 3 channels broadcast  mostly in Turoyo,  & sometimes in Classical Syriac for SuryoyoSAT and eastern dialect for SuroyoTV & AssyriaTV.
Assyrians from Turkey have founded, with the approval of the minister of education of sweden, a school in Sweden:Elafskolan.
In Tur'Abdin, in the Mor Gabriel monsatery, pupils are taught Classical Syriac and are even forbidden to speak Turoyo/Sureyt.
And I could go on...
There is surely a few villages that used to spoke only Kurmanji but those ones might now speak Turkish.
In Istambul they are heavily Turkified (which is normal...) but they have now open a kindergarten to teach Sureyt.
ܚܢܢ ܟܠܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ ܡܢ ܐܫܘܪ
We are all Assyrians !

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2016, 07:39:08 AM »
How do I know ? It's as simple as that: Assyrians from Turkey own today 3 channels:
SuroyoTV(Dawronoye), SuryoyoSAT (Aramean nationalists) & AssyriaTV.
These 3 channels broadcast  mostly in Turoyo,  & sometimes in Classical Syriac for SuryoyoSAT and eastern dialect for SuroyoTV & AssyriaTV.
Assyrians from Turkey have founded, with the approval of the minister of education of sweden, a school in Sweden:Elafskolan.
In Tur'Abdin, in the Mor Gabriel monsatery, pupils are taught Classical Syriac and are even forbidden to speak Turoyo/Sureyt.
And I could go on...
There is surely a few villages that used to spoke only Kurmanji but those ones might now speak Turkish.
In Istambul they are heavily Turkified (which is normal...) but they have now open a kindergarten to teach Sureyt.

Ah, I see.

Well that's nice they have a kindergarten.

Why is Turoyo forbidden again?

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2016, 07:39:08 AM »

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2016, 08:05:45 AM »
There really aren't any around. That's why that quote I posted was written and referenced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#21st_century_proponents

They seem like well-educated folks to me...?

Quote
Josephus was born 4-8 years after Jesus died Tacitus was born 23-27 years after Jesus died: Josephus and Tacitus were more likely to have been born around 4 and 23 years after Jesus respectively. They wrote about Jesus and his followers who included people would have known Jesus personally. Those who knew Jesus personally would have most likely been the leaders of Jesus' followers. The most important notion is that just because they were born after Jesus, it doesn't make their testimonies weak. If that was a measure that was consistently applied, we would lose a massive chunk of known and established historical facts.
Look, Josephus and Tacitus may not be all that bad when it comes to verifying Jesus's existence. They may add a bit of "fuel" here and there. However, I still believe that their testimonies are not that strong if you compare them to those who were around Alexander the Great and Cleopatra. That's it.

Mind you, I'm not convincing you to believe otherwise. I'm just stating my stance on the matter.

P.S. You know which biblical figure probably didn't exist at all? Moses. But who knows...Lol
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2016, 10:55:07 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#21st_century_proponents

They seem like well-educated folks to me...?
Look, Josephus and Tacitus may not be all that bad when it comes to verifying Jesus's existence. They may add a bit of "fuel" here and there. However, I still believe that their testimonies are not that strong if you compare them to those who were around Alexander the Great and Cleopatra. That's it.

The quote I posted before is drawn from several of the most respected scholars who say that virtually all scholars agree on this matter.

That being said I went through the list you provided that shows the proponents of the Christ Myth Theory:

1. "The Reverend Thomas William "Tom" Harpur (born 1929) is a Canadian author, broadcaster, columnist and theologian" -he received heavy criticism for his support of the Christ Myth Theory. He believes that Jesus did not historically exist and he considers "the scriptures as symbolic allegory of a cosmic truth rather than as inconsistent history" ..sounds a little delusional.

2. Thomas L. Thompson is a biblical scholar who thinks that the Christ portrayed in the bible has qualities/attributes taken from other mythologies -he hasn't claimed that Jesus doesn't exist; he's merely asserted that the Jesus described in the Bible can't be real...no **** Einstein.

3. Fr Thomas L. Brodie is a biblical scholar who does support the Christ myth theory despite still being a brother in the Roman Catholic Church....thereby I question his sanity.

4. Richard Carrier is not a biblical scholar but he is a historian and staunch famous atheist. He was initially disinterested in the question of whether or not Jesus existed and considered it a fringe conspiracy topic not worthy of academic inquiry until people paid him to write books about it.

5. "Doherty has stated he has a bachelor's degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages,[2] but no completed advanced degrees." He wrote the book "the Christ Myth Theory" and "Jesus, Neither God nor Man".

"... Bart Ehrman, an expert on textual criticism of the NT and Early Christianity, has dismissed Jesus, Neither God nor Man as "filled with so many unguarded and undocumented statements and claims, and so many misstatements of fact, that it would take a 2,400-page book to deal with all the problems... Not a single early Christian source supports Doherty's claim that Paul and those before him thought of Jesus as a spiritual, not a human being, who was executed in the spiritual, not the earthly realm."[20] ..."

"... In a book criticizing the Christ myth theory, New Testament scholar Maurice Casey describes Doherty as "perhaps the most influential of all the mythicists",[21] but one who is unable to understand the ancient texts he uses in his arguments. ..."

Both Bart Ehram and Maurice Casey are atheist expert biblical scholars.

6. "Price was formerly a Baptist minister in New Jersey, with doctorates in theology (Drew University 1981), and New Testament (Drew 1993)." -though he isn't a historian. From what I've briefly just read about his stance, he says that everyone who espouses the Christ myth theory bases their arguments on three key points:

-"There is no mention of a miracle-working Jesus in secular sources."
     The above is absured. Secular sources that talk about Jesus talk about how he is worshiped by others as a divine being and also describe him as a person who walked the earth and had companions/believers following him around. They obviously aren't going to specifically talk about the "miracles" of someone they reject.

-"The epistles, written earlier than the gospels, provide no evidence of a recent historical Jesus; all that can be taken from the epistles, Price argues, is that a Jesus Christ, son of God, lived in a heavenly realm."
     Absolute rubbish. The epistles clearly talk about a human figure that has been attributed with divine characteristics. They describe in detail the works of a bunch of people who claimed to know Jesus in person and were his companions while he was alive.

-"The Jesus narrative is paralleled in Middle Eastern myths about dying and rising gods; Price names Baal, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dumuzi/Tammuz as examples, all of which, he writes, survived into the Hellenistic and Roman periods and thereby influenced early Christianity."
     This is irrelevant. We are talking about the historicity of Jesus, not about people exaggerating or attributing non-existent supernatural qualities to him. That kind of thing has happened to virtually every major historical figure in antiquity.

Mind you, I'm not convincing you to believe otherwise. I'm just stating my stance on the matter.

I know. I'm only trying to show that academics are not agnostic about this. Virtually all of them are confident that he existed regardless of whether or not he had superpowers. There are oddballs, cranks, biased people and money hungry writers here and there but next to zero serious scholars that disagree. Even most of the few that do, receive heavy criticism from the rest of scholars but acquire fame nonetheless because people like hearing the story of how "Jesus didn't exist"..it sells and there is a massive gap in the market for it.

P.S. You know which biblical figure probably didn't exist at all? Moses. But who knows...Lol

The existence of most biblical figures prior to king David can't be verified. However, at least most human characters in the New testament probably existed if not nearly all/all of them. Their true identities are a different question altogether.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 04:12:59 PM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Shahin

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2016, 12:07:58 PM »
Ah, I see.

Well that's nice they have a kindergarten.

Why is Turoyo forbidden again?

They considered it as an altered/corrupted form of Classical Syriac.
But thing are changing as we see more and more books written in Turoyo, the monastery for example supported the production of a Turoyo-Classical Syriac new testament, which can be used to teach young the two languages.
ܚܢܢ ܟܠܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ ܡܢ ܐܫܘܪ
We are all Assyrians !

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2016, 08:46:27 PM »
The quote I posted before is drawn from several of the most respected scholars who say that virtually all scholars agree on this matter.

That being said I went through the list you provided that shows the proponents of the Christ Myth Theory:

1. "The Reverend Thomas William "Tom" Harpur (born 1929) is a Canadian author, broadcaster, columnist and theologian" -he received heavy criticism for his support of the Christ Myth Theory. He believes that Jesus did not historically exist and he considers "the scriptures as symbolic allegory of a cosmic truth rather than as inconsistent history" ..sounds a little delusional.

2. Thomas L. Thompson is a biblical scholar who thinks that the Christ portrayed in the bible has qualities/attributes taken from other mythologies -he hasn't claimed that Jesus doesn't exist; he's merely asserted that the Jesus described in the Bible can't be real...no **** Einstein.

3. Fr Thomas L. Brodie is a biblical scholar who does support the Christ myth theory despite still being a brother in the Roman Catholic Church....thereby I question his sanity.

4. Richard Carrier is not a biblical scholar but he is a historian and staunch famous atheist. He was initially disinterested in the question of whether or not Jesus existed and considered it a fringe conspiracy topic not worthy of academic inquiry until people paid him to write books about it.

5. "Doherty has stated he has a bachelor's degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages,[2] but no completed advanced degrees." He wrote the book "the Christ Myth Theory" and "Jesus, Neither God nor Man".

"... Bart Ehrman, an expert on textual criticism of the NT and Early Christianity, has dismissed Jesus, Neither God nor Man as "filled with so many unguarded and undocumented statements and claims, and so many misstatements of fact, that it would take a 2,400-page book to deal with all the problems... Not a single early Christian source supports Doherty's claim that Paul and those before him thought of Jesus as a spiritual, not a human being, who was executed in the spiritual, not the earthly realm."[20] ..."

"... In a book criticizing the Christ myth theory, New Testament scholar Maurice Casey describes Doherty as "perhaps the most influential of all the mythicists",[21] but one who is unable to understand the ancient texts he uses in his arguments. ..."

Both Bart Ehram and Maurice Casey are atheist expert biblical scholars.

6. "Price was formerly a Baptist minister in New Jersey, with doctorates in theology (Drew University 1981), and New Testament (Drew 1993)." -though he isn't a historian. From what I've briefly just read about his stance, he says that everyone who espouses the Christ myth theory bases their arguments on three key points:

-"There is no mention of a miracle-working Jesus in secular sources."
     The above is absured. Secular sources that talk about Jesus talk about how he is worshiped by others as a divine being and also describe him as a person who walked the earth and had companions/believers following him around. They obviously aren't going to specifically talk about the "miracles" of someone they reject.

-"The epistles, written earlier than the gospels, provide no evidence of a recent historical Jesus; all that can be taken from the epistles, Price argues, is that a Jesus Christ, son of God, lived in a heavenly realm."
     Absolute rubbish. The epistles clearly talk about a human figure that has been attributed with divine characteristics. They describe in detail the works of a bunch of people who claimed to know Jesus in person and were his companions while he was alive.

-"The Jesus narrative is paralleled in Middle Eastern myths about dying and rising gods; Price names Baal, Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dumuzi/Tammuz as examples, all of which, he writes, survived into the Hellenistic and Roman periods and thereby influenced early Christianity."
     This is irrelevant. We are talking about the historicity of Jesus, not about people exaggerating or attributing non-existent supernatural qualities to him. That kind of thing has happened to virtually every major historical figure in antiquity.

I know. I'm only trying to show that academics are not agnostic about this. Virtually all of them are confident that he existed regardless of whether or not he had superpowers. There are oddballs, cranks, biased people and money hungry writers here and there but next to zero serious scholars that disagree. Even most of the few that do, receive heavy criticism from the rest of scholars but acquire fame nonetheless because people like hearing the story of how "Jesus didn't exist"..it sells and there is a massive gap in the market for it.
I understand your point here.

And thanks for that in-depth input up there. :)
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2016, 04:06:28 AM »
I understand your point here.

And thanks for that in-depth input up there. :)

 :welcome3:
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

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Offline Anid

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2016, 09:12:37 AM »
Where did you get the information that Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified ? That is absolutely not correct.
My sources are limited but that's the impression I get when I see them wearing Kurdish clothes, speaking and singing in the Kurdish language. You might say that they do this because they live in Kurdish areas of Turkey, but even the Diaspora ones from mainly germany/belgium, they still carry that Kurdish tradition. if you see vids on youtube of their weddings, you almost get confused as if they are Kurds. I say ''pretty kurdified'' for a reason and obviously not fully kurdified. So yeah, I could be wrong though.

Also another group are our Chaldean Catholic brothers and sisters, a number of them do not identify as Assyrians, rather would like to be called Iraqi. A small number but they still exist nonetheless. We have fought hard to exist as a nation, but it has affected us greatly..
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 09:13:59 AM by Anid »

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2016, 09:52:37 AM »
Also another group are our Chaldean Catholic brothers and sisters, a number of them do not identify as Assyrians, rather would like to be called Iraqi. A small number but they still exist nonetheless. We have fought hard to exist as a nation, but it has affected us greatly..
Sadly it isn't just a smaller number of them, but a lot of them - You can say half of them, if I may be bold, would call themselves "Iraqis" over anything.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2016, 10:08:04 AM »
My sources are limited but that's the impression I get when I see them wearing Kurdish clothes, speaking and singing in the Kurdish language. You might say that they do this because they live in Kurdish areas of Turkey, but even the Diaspora ones from mainly germany/belgium, they still carry that Kurdish tradition. if you see vids on youtube of their weddings, you almost get confused as if they are Kurds. I say ''pretty kurdified'' for a reason and obviously not fully kurdified. So yeah, I could be wrong though.

Also another group are our Chaldean Catholic brothers and sisters, a number of them do not identify as Assyrians, rather would like to be called Iraqi. A small number but they still exist nonetheless. We have fought hard to exist as a nation, but it has affected us greatly..

Sadly it isn't just a smaller number of them, but a lot of them - You can say half of them, if I may be bold, would call themselves "Iraqis" over anything.

There's always that chunk of people who are no more than 'Iraqis' around Mooslums, and Assyrian or 'Chaldean' among their compatriots.
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2016, 10:19:31 AM »
There's always that chunk of people who are no more than 'Iraqis' around Mooslums, and Assyrian or 'Chaldean' among their compatriots.
Yeah, I know that Assyrians with that mindset exist. But the Chaldeans do seem more relatively ubiquitous.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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