Author Topic: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?  (Read 5267 times)

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Offline mrzurnaci

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The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« on: March 30, 2016, 06:55:30 PM »
The biggest question to me is how, when, and why did the Assyrian-Syriac identity form and how was it maintained?

How was it maintained, especially after massacre by massacre by Muslims?



Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 07:53:14 PM »
The biggest question to me is how, when, and why did the Assyrian-Syriac identity form and how was it maintained?

How was it maintained, especially after massacre by massacre by Muslims?

I suppose the maintenance of the Assyrian identity throughout our Christian history can best be explained from an evolutionary paradigm. Many Assyrians would have assimilated and converted under cultural and religious pressures whereas the ones who were too proud, patriotic, observant/resentful of Islam and Muslims, racist, intelligent and bigoted all would have been more likely of being convinced to maintain their Assyrian heritage and disassociate themselves with Kurds, Arabs and especially Muslims of any kind. Their progeny that inherited these characteristics (whether by cultural or genetic influence) would have been more likely to call themselves Assyrian. Those who lack these traits are less likely to have progeny that maintain an Assyrian lineage which makes any of their corresponding genetic/cultural qualities less ubiquitous within Assyrians.

2000 years of these traits being favoured explains why so many Assyrians hold them today. There are undoubtedly many more traits we could add to this.
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Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 07:54:32 PM »
We didn't migrate and spread out into the world. We stayed close together, lived in obscure villages.

Perhaps that's one reason.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 07:54:32 PM »

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 08:15:49 PM »
We didn't migrate and spread out into the world. We stayed close together, lived in obscure villages.

Perhaps that's one reason.


Many Assyrians did migrate...we simply aren't their descendants. The descendants of the Assyrian soldiers who wrote on Hadrian's Wall or the Thirteen Assyrian Fathers of Georgia or various monks in the far east were much more likely to have merged into foreign populations and lose their Assyrian identity overtime.

In one strange place, the identity isn't completely lost ..which is in Kerala in India where a large community of 300,000 Indians call themselves Knanaye and claim to be descendants of a community of Assyrians missionaries (and some of their family members) who were followers of Saint  Thomas. Those missionaries obviously mixed with the local Indians, and overtime, the genes of those Assyrians was been diluted to the point of apparent absence.

Listen carefully for Assyrian words: KNANAYA HISTORY - SPEAKER - JAMES JOSEPH CHAMPENNIL VAYANNUR - KANNUR
! No longer available

                                                      Proud to be a knanaya unknown historical facts by TO Alias
! No longer available

Here's some of their religious music: Eshoye Ninne Kananayi (Malayalam HQ Christian Song)
! No longer available
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:50:41 PM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

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Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 08:37:38 PM »
Many Assyrians did migrate...we simply aren't their descendants. The descendants of the Assyrian soldiers who wrote on Hadrian's Wall or the Thirteen Assyrian Fathers of Georgia or various monks in the far east were much more likely to have merged into foreign populations and lose their Assyrian identity overtime.

In one strange place, the identity wasn't completely lost ..which is in Kerala in India where a large community of 300,000 Indians call themselves Knanaye and claim to be descendants of a community of Assyrians missionaries (and some of their family members) who were followers of Saint  Thomas. Those missionaries obviously mixed with the local Indians, and overtime, the genes of those Assyrians was been diluted to the point of apparent absence.

Listen carefully for Assyrian words: ! No longer available
                                                       ! No longer available
Here's some of their religious music: ! No longer available

This is interesting. Thanks for these videos.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 08:50:49 AM »
Christianity is a spiritual form of martyrdom. Without it we would have ceased to exist. All the horrible things Assyrians went through would be confirmed in their beliefs and gave them the incentive to keep going.

Why we didn't blend into the islamic tribes around us? Because christianity was not practised in arabic, Turkish, persian etc. Losing our language and culture and replacing it with one of those would mean the loss of our religion altogether.

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 09:34:45 AM »
Practically we were going to exist with our identity no matter what, Islam couldn't have wiped us out no matter what religion Assyrians followed because either way they hated you for being a Non-Muslim.

Look at us now, we are more dived thanks to Christianity.. Assyrian Christians didn't defend themselves in the "Islamic golden age" because the bible says you can't fight.

What's worse is people of the Assyrian church of the east are harassing people online for Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodox to convert to their church.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 11:16:59 PM »
Christianity is a spiritual form of martyrdom. Without it we would have ceased to exist. All the horrible things Assyrians went through would be confirmed in their beliefs and gave them the incentive to keep going.

Why we didn't blend into the islamic tribes around us? Because christianity was not practised in arabic, Turkish, persian etc. Losing our language and culture and replacing it with one of those would mean the loss of our religion altogether.

Alright, what does that have to do with the Assyrian identity itself though?

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 11:17:32 PM »
Practically we were going to exist with our identity no matter what, Islam couldn't have wiped us out no matter what religion Assyrians followed because either way they hated you for being a Non-Muslim.

Look at us now, we are more dived thanks to Christianity.. Assyrian Christians didn't defend themselves in the "Islamic golden age" because the bible says you can't fight.

What's worse is people of the Assyrian church of the east are harassing people online for Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodox to convert to their church.

Alright, what does that have to do with the Assyrian identity itself though?

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 12:27:53 AM »
Alright, what does that have to do with the Assyrian identity itself though?

It was going to be maintained no matter what, it existed 600 AD and it wouldn't disappear after Islam began to rise in the middle east.

Because you said even after all the massacres committed by Muslims.

Offline Etain

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 12:39:30 AM »
Language and religion.
I believe up until 1000 AD, Syriac was commonly spoken in areas just north of Baghdad. I saw a map of it somewhere,but regretfully can't find it.

Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 08:27:59 AM »
Alright, what does that have to do with the Assyrian identity itself though?

It's been fused within the Assyrian identity for 2000 years.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 08:32:52 AM »
It's been fused within the Assyrian identity for 2000 years.

what about the other 4,000 years of our history?

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2016, 09:06:12 AM »
Their is no mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ from 1-200 AD so it technically wasn't "2000 years"... So again, you're false and you ignore factual information.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 09:07:22 AM by Domanic »

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2016, 09:25:39 AM »
Their is no mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ from 1-200 AD so it technically wasn't "2000 years"... So again, you're false and you ignore factual information.

That's not true. There are both Christian and non-Christian sources referring to Jesus just a few decades after his death. The four canonical gospels were all complete no later than sometime during the second century and the Gospel of Mark was written at least as early as about 3 decades after Jesus' death.

We even have Christian iconography and Aramaic words transliterated in Latin that are under the ruins of Pompeii. They existed prior to the eruption of mount Vesuvius in 79 AD. So 'Aramaic-Christianity' had reached the Italian peninsula no later than 79 AD.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 10:02:32 AM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2016, 02:24:04 PM »
Their is no mention of Christianity and Jesus Christ from 1-200 AD so it technically wasn't "2000 years"... So again, you're false and you ignore factual information.

As you can see from Sharukinu's fact filled post, you just made the most ironic post of the week. Deal with the facts as much as they may hurt. Christianity=Assyrianism for 2 millennium's. It's the reason there are even Assyrians today.

Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2016, 02:49:30 PM »
what about the other 4,000 years of our history?

We were mostly on top of the world, back then we didn't have to be in a situation where only spiritual martyrdom could give us the incentive and hope to overcome such adversity, and for some time we were even allowed to be a nation after we lost our empire to others because they found us useful.

It was with the spread of islam and mongols when our survival was truly tested and by that time were lucky enough that christianity was there to guide us through those genocidal times. Some will play the "woulda coulda" angle because the truth hurts but that's just what it is, a fact to your question posed in this thread.

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2016, 04:45:38 PM »
That's not true. There are both Christian and non-Christian sources referring to Jesus just a few decades after his death. The four canonical gospels were all complete no later than sometime during the second century and the Gospel of Mark was written at least as early as about 3 decades after Jesus' death.

We even have Christian iconography and Aramaic words transliterated in Latin that are under the ruins of Pompeii. They existed prior to the eruption of mount Vesuvius in 79 AD. So 'Aramaic-Christianity' had reached the Italian peninsula no later than 79 AD.

I need more proof of that then just assumptions.

I don't think Christianity helped us at all with Assyrians, all we did was trade one mythology for a more trendy one.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 04:57:51 PM by Domanic »

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2016, 07:02:05 PM »
I need more proof of that then just assumptions.

To be fair, what you are saying contradicts the academic consensus which should make the onus upon you to support your isolated claim. Nonetheless:

Look up what Josephus, (a non-Christian Jew) wrote about Jesus in the Antiquities of the Jews (written 93 AD or 94 AD)

Look up what Tacitus wrote about Jesus in the Annals, book 15, chapter 44. By the vast majority of historians, Tacitus is regarded as the best Roman historian and the Annals are probably the best work of any Roman historian. Tacitus was a non-Christian Roman senator who lived somewhere in northern Italy or southern France. This was written ca. 116 AD, and the reference I gave you not only discusses Jesus but it specifically notes how Nero blamed Christians (who lived in Rome) for the Great fire of Rome in AD 64 in order to protect his public image.

As for the Gospel of Mark's early appearance, it is the general consensus among historians that it must of came into existence no later than about 3 decades. Even though we don't have a copy of the Gospel of Mark at that time, the rapid spread, diversification and presence of manuscripts despite the difficulties in producing writing at that time and the odds of finding it today, has convinced historians that the original text must be that old.

You could even look up the early writings of others like Lucian of Samosata (a non-Christian Assyrian who wrote about Jesus and Christians in Greek), Pliny the Younger (a non-Christian Roman magistrate - though I personally don't find him as reliable as the others I've mentioned despite that he's generally trusted among historians), the Dead Sea Scrolls, Rylands Library Papyrus P52, the Masoretic texts and even the Babylonian Talmud.

I don't think Christianity helped us at all with Assyrians, all we did was trade one mythology for a more trendy one.

I don't mean to pick on you Dominic, and it is not that I necessarily agree with all that Joe's saying (and I certainly don't like the way he's saying it), but much of what you two are talking about is a moot point where there aren't much facts that can be levied to form a conclusion ...except for your claim regarding Jesus. I merely wanted to set the facts straight.

I haven't yet mentioned what the effects of Christianity are on Assyrians; I was merely referring to the historicity of Jesus. However, I think that Christianity acts as a strong basis (through religious paranoia) for a weak nationalism (where secular goals are neglected).

As for what how we would have turned out if we weren't Christians ....well, if my aunty had balls, she'd be my uncle.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 07:05:15 PM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2016, 08:03:01 PM »
You don't have to openly agree with me, Sharukinu(as you maybe are trying to prevent others from having their souls devastatingly crushed as they see your detailed work). Your excellent work in this thread does so regardless. The historical evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of christianity having been fused within Assyrian identity since its inception, as us being the first group of people to accept Christ is what saved our identity. It even saved us in the islamic era because for some miracle, they allow christians to live albeit completely oppressed as per sharia law/jizyah. If we were still pagans we would have been completely wiped out by the islamists and there is no martyrdom belief there, or we simply would have converted to islam like the other pagans who didn't become christians or jews.

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2016, 08:21:01 PM »
To be fair, what you are saying contradicts the academic consensus which should make the onus upon you to support your isolated claim. Nonetheless:

Look up what Josephus, (a non-Christian Jew) wrote about Jesus in the Antiquities of the Jews (written 93 AD or 94 AD)

Look up what Tacitus wrote about Jesus in the Annals, book 15, chapter 44. By the vast majority of historians, Tacitus is regarded as the best Roman historian and the Annals are probably the best work of any Roman historian. Tacitus was a non-Christian Roman senator who lived somewhere in northern Italy or southern France. This was written ca. 116 AD, and the reference I gave you not only discusses Jesus but it specifically notes how Nero blamed Christians (who lived in Rome) for the Great fire of Rome in AD 64 in order to protect his public image.

As for the Gospel of Mark's early appearance, it is the general consensus among historians that it must of came into existence no later than about 3 decades. Even though we don't have a copy of the Gospel of Mark at that time, the rapid spread, diversification and presence of manuscripts despite the difficulties in producing writing at that time and the odds of finding it today, has convinced historians that the original text must be that old.

You could even look up the early writings of others like Lucian of Samosata (a non-Christian Assyrian who wrote about Jesus and Christians in Greek), Pliny the Younger (a non-Christian Roman magistrate - though I personally don't find him as reliable as the others I've mentioned despite that he's generally trusted among historians), the Dead Sea Scrolls, Rylands Library Papyrus P52, the Masoretic texts and even the Babylonian Talmud.

I've read about these historians (Josephus, Tacitus) and their writings on Jesus. The thing is, they came to be after the death of Jesus. They weren't around during his life. So they cannot be taken genuinely. But then again, I can't say that Jesus surely was nonexistent. I'm very "agnostic" on this regard.

This article is a good read on this matter: http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2016, 05:29:28 AM »
I've read about these historians (Josephus, Tacitus) and their writings on Jesus. The thing is, they came to be after the death of Jesus. They weren't around during his life. So they cannot be taken genuinely.


The evidence in favour of Jesus' existence is massive. You do not need to be present at the scene of a crime to know it happened.

Josephus wrote about the companions of Jesus and he was born 37 AD (shortly following the crucifixion) and he was from Jerusalem which would make it absurd if he was talking about the imaginary friend of hundreds of people who claimed to have known Jesus. Just because we don't have something from the time Jesus was alive (only shortly afterwards) doesn't mean that the abundant evidence can't be regarded as genuine. Tacitus' account of the early spread of Christianity in Europe is also regarded as accurate.

This article is a good read on this matter: http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm


This source you provided is not only obscuring what we all historians know about these records, but sounds heavily biased with anti-Christian sentiments. The author is using half-truths to lead people on. I'm an atheist and I find this ridiculous. Though I only read about half of the page, the author is filling his argument with assertions. For example, he claims that Tacitus' account which confirms a sizable Christian presence in Rome, can't be true because there wasn't a 'multitude' of Christians in Jerusalem ..who ever wrote that is an idiot; I really doubt he'll be able to debunk much of the strong evidence in favour of the existence of Jesus and for that reason, I'm convinced he's wasting my time. Sorry, but I couldn't bear to finish it.

... us being the first group of people to accept Christ is what saved our identity. It even saved us in the islamic era because for some miracle, they allow christians to live albeit completely oppressed as per sharia law/jizyah. If we were still pagans we would have been completely wiped out by the islamists and there is no martyrdom belief there, or we simply would have converted to islam like the other pagans who didn't become christians or jews.


I don't quite find Christianity beneficial for our nationalistic goals. On the other hand, I believe it's best (and one of it's few) contribution to our people is by acting as a moral police despite it's imperfections.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:43:28 AM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2016, 05:35:00 AM »
The evidence in favour of Jesus' existence is massive. You do not need to be present at the scene of a crime to know it happened.

Josephus wrote about the companions of Jesus and he was born 37 AD (shortly following the crucifixion) and he was from Jerusalem which would make it absurd if he was talking about the imaginary friend of hundreds of people who claimed to have known Jesus. Just because we don't have something from the time Jesus was alive (only shortly afterwards) doesn't mean that the abundant evidence can't be regarded as genuine. Tacitus' account of the early spread of Christianity in Europe is also regarded as accurate.

This source you provided is not only obscuring what we all historians know about these records, but sounds heavily biased with anti-Christian sentiments. The author is using half-truths to lead people on. I'm an atheist and I find this ridiculous. Though I only read about half of the page, the author is filling his argument with assertions. For example, he claims that Tacitus' account which confirms a sizable Christian presence in Rome, can't be true because there wasn't a 'multitude' of Christians in Jerusalem ..who ever wrote that is an idiot; I really doubt he'll be able to debunk much of the strong evidence in favour of the existence of Jesus and for that reason I'm convinced he's wasting my time. Sorry, but I couldn't bear to finish it.

I'm very 50/50 on Jesus's existence. I'm not deliberately standing against his existence, I'm just being "open". I can see truths in either side of the fence. To be fair, I think an actual eyewitness account is a must (outside the bible). We're speaking of a historical figure, not vestiges in a crime scene (which could be clear, traceable and evident). These historians only "knew" Jesus in words or heard descriptions of him from 30 or so years ago. They were second hand. 

Yes, the article I linked seemed biased and it had an anti-Christian flavor to it. This isn't to say that it didn't make any good points, though. I found this article (http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources), and yet it seemed partial towards Christianity; Like, as if, an enthusiastic Christian wrote it. And this one (http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm) also seemed biased towards Jesus and Christianity. There is no solution here. On one hand, we have "contemptuous" atheists rejecting Jesus's existence with all their might and, on the other, we have biased Christians saying Jesus existed for sure. That's why I cannot pick a "side" on this matter.

We should look for articles on Jesus's historicity that have no atheistic or Christian leanings. As in, ones that don't state he never existed for sure or that he undeniably existed. Both seem "extreme" for my liking. I personally think that we non-Christians should be "agnostic" on his existence. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:13:10 AM by Neon »
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Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2016, 06:40:44 AM »
Like I said, I really don't know. I'm very 50/50 on Jesus's existence. I wouldn't mind if he existed (so I'm not deliberately standing against his existence, I'm just being "open"). I'm really open to both sides. I can see truths in either side of the fence. To be fair, I think an actual eyewitness account is a must (outside the bible). We're speaking of a historical figure, not traces in a crime scene (which are clear and evident). These historians only "knew" Jesus in words or heard descriptions of him. They were second hand. 

And yes, the article I linked seemed biased and it had an anti-Christian flavor to it. I guess I should've found a more compelling one. I found this one (http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources), and yet it seemed partial towards Christianity; Like, as if, an enthusiastic Christian wrote it. And this one (http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm) was also biased towards Jesus and Christianity. Is there no "middle ground"? On one hand, we have contemptuous atheists totally rejecting Jesus's existence and, on the other, we have biased Christians that say Jesus existed for sure. That's why I cannot pick a "side" on this matter.


Your right in that there is no middle ground becasue the case has already been settled. The vast majority of non-Christian, Biblical scholars as well as Christian, Biblical scholars agree that Jesus existed -virtually all of them agree. There is no ongoing argument between them about the existence of Jesus; they merely speculate about his life and what he did. This view isn't contested by any reputable Biblical scholars. But there are a load of dodgy articles out there and there's a myriad of intellectually repulsive YouTube videos that make bizarre unfounded claims whilst contradicting the academic consensus.

We should look for articles on Jesus's historicity that have no atheistic or Christian leanings. As in, ones that don't state he never existed for sure or that he undeniably existed. Both seem "extreme" for my liking. I personally think that we non-Christians should be "agnostic" on his existence. 


Bias-free articles that are based on the available information must conclude that Jesus existed. Although indecisiveness is important in rationalisation and avoiding errors, it is not appropriate to be indecisive in the face of overwhelming evidence pointing to a specific conclusion. I am not "agnostic" about the existence of the Sun. Likewise, I am not agnostic about the existence of Julius Caesar and I am not agnostic about the existence of Jesus.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:05:47 AM by Sharukinu »
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Offline Anid

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2016, 07:08:27 AM »
The biggest question to me is how, when, and why did the Assyrian-Syriac identity form and how was it maintained?

How was it maintained, especially after massacre by massacre by Muslims?

It's not fully maintained. Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified. And most Assyrians can't even read or write in Assyrian...

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2016, 08:15:49 AM »
Your right in that there is no middle ground becasue the case has already been settled. The vast majority of non-Christian, Biblical scholars as well as Christian, Biblical scholars agree that Jesus existed -virtually all of them agree. There is no ongoing argument between them about the existence of Jesus; they merely speculate about his life and what he did. This view isn't contested by any reputable Biblical scholars. But there are a load of dodgy articles out there and there's a myriad of intellectually repulsive YouTube videos that make bizarre unfounded claims whilst contradicting the academic consensus.
Yes, but there are atheist and agnostic historians who don't agree with them. There are still disputes. Not all atheists against his existence have an anti-Christian agenda. They have brought up reasonable arguments and perspectives against Jesus's existence (one being, no contemporary eyewitnesses, which raises a red flag for me). Does that mean I'm fully on their side? No. But do they make fathomable points? Of course.

Quote
Bias-free articles that are based on the available information must conclude that Jesus existed. Although indecisiveness is important in rationalisation and avoiding errors, it is not appropriate to be indecisive in the face of overwhelming evidence pointing to a specific conclusion. I am not "agnostic" about the existence of the Sun. Likewise, I am not agnostic about the existence of Julius Caesar and I am not agnostic about the existence of Jesus.
We must agree to disagree here. The sun exists because I see it everyday. Caesar exists because there were substantial amounts of eyewitness reports during his lifetime. Unlike Jesus, people didn't start to talk about Caesar 30-50 years after his death. In other words, history was being written about him when had breath in his lungs. That's why I'll always remain agnostic about the existence of Jesus. He'll never be on the same level when it comes to the historicity of other historical figures like, Alexander the Great, Nero, Cleopatra, Nefertiti, etc.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being that Jesus existed for sure, I'd be comfortably at 5.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2016, 09:20:41 AM »
Yes, but there are atheist and agnostic historians who don't agree with them. There are still disputes. Not all atheists against his existence have an anti-Christian agenda. They have brought up reasonable arguments and perspectives against Jesus's existence (one being, no contemporary eyewitnesses, which raises a red flag for me). Does that mean I'm fully on their side? No. But do they make fathomable points? Of course.
We must agree to disagree here. The sun exists because I see it everyday. Caesar exists because there were substantial amounts of eyewitness reports during his lifetime. Unlike Jesus, people didn't start to talk about Caesar 30-50 years after his death. In other words, history was being written about him when had breath in his lungs. That's why I'll always remain agnostic about the existence of Jesus. He'll never be on the same level when it comes to the historicity of other historical figures like, Alexander the Great, Nero, Cleopatra, Nefertiti, etc.

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being that Jesus existed for sure, I'd be comfortably at 5.


Jesus' historicity isn't disputed among academics. The Jihadi pilots of 9/11 were clean shaven, ate pork and drank alcohol during/ leading up to the attacks therefore I will (erroneously) remain agnostic regarding their belief in Islam. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we don't have records from when Jesus was alive doesn't mean it is reasonable to doubt his existence -there is plenty that comes shortly afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_ref-9 Read the topic sentence of third paragraph which has been referenced quite well. There are atheist apologists (not scholars) who dispute Jesus' existence whereas virtually all scholars, regardless of their beliefs, do not.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:56:55 AM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2016, 10:21:00 AM »
It's not fully maintained. Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified. And most Assyrians can't even read or write in Assyrian...

can I get another Suroyoyo/Western Assyrian to verify this?

Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2016, 10:53:00 AM »

Jesus' historicity isn't disputed among academics. The Jihadi pilots of 9/11 were clean shaven, ate pork and drank alcohol during/ leading up to the attacks therefore I will (erroneously) remain agnostic regarding their belief in Islam. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we don't have records from when Jesus was alive doesn't mean it is reasonable to doubt his existence -there is plenty that comes shortly afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_ref-9 Read the topic sentence of third paragraph which has been referenced quite well. There are atheist apologists (not scholars) who dispute Jesus' existence whereas virtually all scholars, regardless of their beliefs, do not.
We were around when the jihadi pilots flew the planes into the buildings. We know exactly what they said in the pilot recordings (regarding their beliefs). Unfair comparison there.

Jesus's existence will never be on par with existence of the other historical figures that I brought up earlier (Alexander, Cleopatra, etc). The authenticity of his existence will never reach theirs. Last time I checked, there is the "Christ myth theory", not "Cleopatra myth theory". There is a reason why some historians doubt that Jesus's existence. Why should I shut them up and call them "atheist apologists"?

About that third paragraph you linked, I can see myself agreeing with this statement:

However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic

Again, we have to agree to disagree. Feel free to what you believe in. If you think that Jesus undoubtedly, 100%, existed, then by all means. I personally won't be on that bandwagon. Nor am I gonna be on the "100% nonexistent" boat.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2016, 11:30:42 AM »
We were around when the jihadi pilots flew the planes into the buildings. We know exactly what they said in the pilot recordings (regarding their beliefs). Unfair comparison there.

I think you missed the point of what i was saying. The kinds of evidence for the historicity of 9/11 and Jesus are obviously vastly different to each other. I was saying that just because we didn't see them behaving like religious Muslims, doesn't mean they aren't. Just because we don't have writing about Jesus that was written while he was breathing, doesn't mean he didn't exist.


Jesus's existence will never be on par with existence of the other historical figures that I brought up earlier (Alexander, Cleopatra, etc). The authenticity of his existence will never reach theirs. Last time I checked, there is the "Christ myth theory", not "Cleopatra myth theory". There is a reason why some historians doubt that Jesus's existence. Why should I shut them up and call them "atheist apologists"?

Because they aren't historians. Atheist historians disagree with the atheists apologist laity who banally assert that the "Christ myth theory" is true. Those people are no different to the Young Earth Creationists.  No one worships Cleopatra and so those particular anti-theists look for a more relevant target to let off their steam with demagoguery.

About that third paragraph you linked, I can see myself agreeing with this statement:
However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic

This means that they debate who Jesus was not whether he existed or not. They debate which Jesus is the real Jesus (as with virtually anyone from the past). This is the whole paragraph:

" There is "near universal consensus" among scholars that Jesus existed historically,[3][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although biblical scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][2]:168–173 While scholars have sometimes criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions, such critics do support the historicity of Jesus, and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[16][nb 8][18][19][20] However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.[21][22] "

I really don't see any reason to not be convinced that Jesus was real in spite of all the evidence I provided and the overwhelming support from academics. I regret to say that I think I suspect an atheist bias on your part Neon. If it had been someone else that was lost in time, I'm sure you would be convinced that they existed if half of this evidence was presented.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 04:20:56 PM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline Shahin

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2016, 04:54:59 PM »
It's not fully maintained. Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified. And most Assyrians can't even read or write in Assyrian...

Where did you get the information that Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified ? That is absolutely not correct.
ܚܢܢ ܟܠܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ ܡܢ ܐܫܘܪ
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Offline Cascade

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2016, 09:57:29 PM »
I think you missed the point of what i was saying. The kinds of evidence for the historicity of 9/11 and Jesus are obviously vastly different to each other. I was saying that just because we didn't see them behaving like religious Muslims, doesn't mean they aren't. Just because we don't have writing about Jesus that was written while he was breathing, doesn't mean he didn't exist.
Yes, and it doesn't mean that he existed for sure. We don't have to be so absolute. And when did I exactly say that Jesus doesn't exist? All I said was that I question his existence.

Quote
Because they aren't historians. Atheist historians disagree with the atheists apologist laity who banally assert that the "Christ myth theory" is true. Those people are no different to the Young Earth Creationists.  No one worships Cleopatra and so those particular anti-theists look for a more relevant target to let off their steam with demagoguery.
Actually, there are atheists who deny his existence and are objective historians. Yes, there always will be "anti-theists" who vehemently try to deny his existence purely in the name of atheism (like that website I linked earlier), just the same way there would be Christians who would even state "proof" that Jesus did in fact did miracles, rise from the dead, etc. Radical perspectives will be always be present.

Quote
This means that they debate who Jesus was not whether he existed or not. They debate which Jesus is the real Jesus (as with virtually anyone from the past). This is the whole paragraph:

" There is "near universal consensus" among scholars that Jesus existed historically,[3][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although biblical scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][2]:168–173 While scholars have sometimes criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions, such critics do support the historicity of Jesus, and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[16][nb 8][18][19][20] However, certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesi" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic.[21][22] "
I know. All I said was that I can at least see myself agreeing with it.

Quote
I really don't see any reason to not be convinced that Jesus was real in spite of all the evidence I provided and the overwhelming support from academics. I regret to say that I think I suspect an atheist bias on your part Neon. If it had been someone else that was lost in time, I'm sure you would be convinced that they existed if half of this evidence was presented.
Okay, enough with these assumptions. I thought we got along well where we simply agreed to disagree in other disputes on this forum. Not sure why you're being personal and defensive all of a sudden. I can also say that you're a Christian apologist, and that if you weren't raised a Christian you probably would be agreeing with me. But I don't jump to these assumptions.

To reiterate: Because Josephus and Tacitus lived 30-50 years after Jesus, his existence would lose credibility since they were not around his time, as were 99.9% of the people who spoke of him. Now nobody's saying that he didn't exist for sure, but he won't be on the same level of Cleopatra, Alexander, Nero, etc. That's my little stance. Not sure why it's contentious.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2016, 10:43:21 PM »
Where did you get the information that Assyrians from Turkey are pretty Kurdified ? That is absolutely not correct.

****, how do you know?

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2016, 11:44:10 PM »
****, how do you know?

massive conjecture is massive

Offline Joe25

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Re: The Formation and Maintenance of the Assyrian identity?
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2016, 12:28:40 AM »
All I can think of are Assyrians from older generations who were able to speak kurmanji, not sure if that's still the case in the smaller villages but I know my grandparents could speak it even though they stopped using it in the west. But that was a necessity to be able to communicate with them, remember they outnumber us in Turkey even in Midyat which is in the heart of Tur Abdin, sadly.

If anything they're more 'Turkified' because they occasionally use Turkish when they talk to eachother too.

 

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