Author Topic: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"  (Read 6652 times)

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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2015, 05:52:25 PM »
have you ever noticed that there is a reason to why syriacs call themselves arameans and assyrians, because the greeks called both assyrians and arameans syrians and till this day we are confused. the syriac churchfathers said we are arameans and there must be a reason. We both call ourselves suryoyo/suryaya, maybe becuase the greeks called us syrians and we accepted syrian/suryoyo/suryaya and then we are arameans and assyrians becuase the greeks called both of that people under the name syrians. And we probably accepted that name syrian after christianization and after rome accepted it 300 AD. Then we were under the roman empire influence and we wanted to accept their name syrian because to the east lies the sassanid empire and they were not christians.

You clearly didn't watch the video, that Shahin provided, of Mor Yuliyos Aydin saying he made up the Aramean identity...

His reasoning was because of certain Assyrian nationalists offending him or something like that.

I've given you all the evidence and you haven't been able to counter them because you keep using the same "Greeks called us Syrians" argument which was weak argument in the first place.

I've given you evidence and facts; at this point, you're being dense now.

ok, looking at the Syrian people article on wikipedia...

"The name "Syrians" was employed by the Greeks and Romans to denote the inhabitants of Syria; however, those inhabitants called themselves Arameans and Assyrians. The ethnic designation "Syrian" is derived from the word "Assyrian" and appeared in the Hellenistic and Roman periods. Some argue that the discovery of the Çineköy inscription in 2000 seems to support the theory that the term Syria derives from Assyria.

The Greeks used the terms "Syrian" and "Assyrian" interchangeably to indicate the indigenous Arameans, Assyrians and other inhabitants of the Near East, Herodotus considered "Syria" west of the Euphrates. Starting from the 2nd century BC onwards, ancient writers referred to the Seleucid ruler as the King of Syria or King of The Syrians.[3] The Seleucids designated the districts of Seleucis and Coele-Syria explicitly as Syria and ruled the Syrians as indigenous populations residing west of the Euphrates (Aramea) in contrast to Assyrians who had their native homeland in Mesopotamia east of the Euphrates.[4] However, the interchangeability between Assyrians and Syrians persisted during the Hellenistic period."

From reading the above info, the term "Syrian" was used to designate ANYONE who lived in Syria and not as an ethnic term

How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter that Arameans DO NOT SPEAK SYRIAC OR LIVE IN MESOPOTAMIA OR CONSIDER MESOPOTAMIA AS THEIR HOMELAND.

The vast majority of Syriac Orthodox live East of the Euphrates......

the Aramean homeland is WEST OF THE EUPHRATES - MA'ARVO D'FUROT -> OROMOYE, MODENHO D'FURAT - OTHUROYE...

Offline Etain

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2015, 09:50:23 PM »
The christians of maloula are not even Arameans you stupid **** those are Rom Greeks in others words the Selucid greeks Alexander brought with himself
Excuse you!
If they,being western Aramaic speakers aren't Aramean, then who is?
And no, they aren't Greek,Roman or Persian.

Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2015, 03:29:06 AM »
You clearly didn't watch the video, that Shahin provided, of Mor Yuliyos Aydin saying he made up the Aramean identity...

His reasoning was because of certain Assyrian nationalists offending him or something like that.

I've given you all the evidence and you haven't been able to counter them because you keep using the same "Greeks called us Syrians" argument which was weak argument in the first place.

I've given you evidence and facts; at this point, you're being dense now.

ok, looking at the Syrian people article on wikipedia...

"The name "Syrians" was employed by the Greeks and Romans to denote the inhabitants of Syria; however, those inhabitants called themselves Arameans and Assyrians. The ethnic designation "Syrian" is derived from the word "Assyrian" and appeared in the Hellenistic and Roman periods. Some argue that the discovery of the Çineköy inscription in 2000 seems to support the theory that the term Syria derives from Assyria.

The Greeks used the terms "Syrian" and "Assyrian" interchangeably to indicate the indigenous Arameans, Assyrians and other inhabitants of the Near East, Herodotus considered "Syria" west of the Euphrates. Starting from the 2nd century BC onwards, ancient writers referred to the Seleucid ruler as the King of Syria or King of The Syrians.[3] The Seleucids designated the districts of Seleucis and Coele-Syria explicitly as Syria and ruled the Syrians as indigenous populations residing west of the Euphrates (Aramea) in contrast to Assyrians who had their native homeland in Mesopotamia east of the Euphrates.[4] However, the interchangeability between Assyrians and Syrians persisted during the Hellenistic period."

From reading the above info, the term "Syrian" was used to designate ANYONE who lived in Syria and not as an ethnic term

How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter that Arameans DO NOT SPEAK SYRIAC OR LIVE IN MESOPOTAMIA OR CONSIDER MESOPOTAMIA AS THEIR HOMELAND.

The vast majority of Syriac Orthodox live East of the Euphrates......

the Aramean homeland is WEST OF THE EUPHRATES - MA'ARVO D'FUROT -> OROMOYE, MODENHO D'FURAT - OTHUROYE...

Are u a retard or what?  There is a reason to why Syriacs thinks they are Arameans. If all listen to you then shouldnt we be United now? The ANCIENT CHURCHFATHERS AND HISTORIANS called us arameans. There are proof and u clearly havent seen them. Search google but unlike me, u are clearly Assyrian fanatic!

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2015, 03:29:06 AM »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2015, 09:34:25 AM »
Are u a retard or what?  There is a reason to why Syriacs thinks they are Arameans. If all listen to you then shouldnt we be United now? The ANCIENT CHURCHFATHERS AND HISTORIANS called us arameans. There are proof and u clearly havent seen them. Search google but unlike me, u are clearly Assyrian fanatic!

"Are u a retard or what?  There is a reason to why Syriacs thinks they are Arameans."

How are you an Aramean if you don't know/speak Western Aramaic? What about the geographic distribution of Syriacs across the Middle East? Majority of them live in Mesopotamia than the Levant. Ever thought about that, retard?

I'm an Assyrian fanatic? Is that why I prefer being called "Mesopotamian" instead of "Assyrian" since I believe Mesopotamian is more fitting and it puts into mention the Southern side of Iraq where the Sumerians and Akkadians lived to form into Babylonians?

You clearly still don't understand the identity, Mr. Wannabe-Aramean

"The ANCIENT CHURCHFATHERS AND HISTORIANS called us arameans. There are proof and u clearly havent seen them."

Ancient Church fathers and Historians called you Arameans eh? Where's the proof then, show it to me.

I already showed you my evidence, you have to show my your evidence now...

How the **** can you be an Aramean when you don't even speak Western Neo-Aramaic or have any heritage in Aram-Damascus?

Have you even tried speaking Surayt/Sureeth to the Arameans of Ma'loula? They won't understand 90% of anything you'll say...

Language is one of the basic modules of identity and you speak Syriac, so do those who call themselves Assyrians, and so do those who call themselves Chaldean.

If you speak Syriac natively, you're ethnically a member of the Assyro-Chaldean-Syriac people.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 09:38:19 AM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2015, 01:01:55 PM »
"Are u a retard or what?  There is a reason to why Syriacs thinks they are Arameans."

How are you an Aramean if you don't know/speak Western Aramaic? What about the geographic distribution of Syriacs across the Middle East? Majority of them live in Mesopotamia than the Levant. Ever thought about that, retard?

I'm an Assyrian fanatic? Is that why I prefer being called "Mesopotamian" instead of "Assyrian" since I believe Mesopotamian is more fitting and it puts into mention the Southern side of Iraq where the Sumerians and Akkadians lived to form into Babylonians?

You clearly still don't understand the identity, Mr. Wannabe-Aramean

"The ANCIENT CHURCHFATHERS AND HISTORIANS called us arameans. There are proof and u clearly havent seen them."

Ancient Church fathers and Historians called you Arameans eh? Where's the proof then, show it to me.

I already showed you my evidence, you have to show my your evidence now...

How the **** can you be an Aramean when you don't even speak Western Neo-Aramaic or have any heritage in Aram-Damascus?

Have you even tried speaking Surayt/Sureeth to the Arameans of Ma'loula? They won't understand 90% of anything you'll say...

Language is one of the basic modules of identity and you speak Syriac, so do those who call themselves Assyrians, and so do those who call themselves Chaldean.

If you speak Syriac natively, you're ethnically a member of the Assyro-Chaldean-Syriac people.

how many times do l have to say that l dont call myself aramean! if you want proof then search google!

Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2015, 01:03:49 PM »
or better if you search for the topic suryoyo! there suryoyo 4ever explained much!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 01:05:49 PM by Neta1991 »

Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 01:08:08 PM »
and btw why start this mesopotamian unity when our forefathers already told us who we are for centuries? search for suryoyo topic or suryoyo 4ever

Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2015, 01:12:56 PM »
It is truly fascinating to discover that Ephrem (d. 373), who was born in Nisibin (whence he fled to Edessa in 363), “speaks of Aram as ‘our country’ in a number of places.”14 It has been further confirmed that “Ephrem himself uses the word ‘Aramaic’ to describe his language.”15 “But the Philosopher of the Syrians,” as Ephrem derided the Edessan intellectual Bar-Daisan (d. 222), “made himself a laughing-stock among Syrians and Greeks.”16 Oddly, the English translation rendered the actual name ‘Arameans’ in the text twice with ‘Syrians’ here! These ‘Arameans’, explicated an authority on Ephrem, “sind die orthodoxen Syrer von Edessa.”17 In a metrical homily, Jacob of Serugh18 (d. 521) writes about Ephrem: “He who became a crown for the people of the Aramaeans [armāyūthā], (and) by him we have been brought close to spiritual beauty.”19 Perhaps a closer translation of the Aramaic word ‘armāyūthā’ would here be ‘Arameandom’ (cf. German ‘Aramäertum’). Also notice the synonymous use of the name ‘Suryoye’ two lines further in the same couplet: “He who raised up the horn of the Syrians everywhere, (and) from him henceforth we have learnt to sing to the Lord with sweet songs.”

soca 4We conclude by citing two other eminent writers from just a few centuries later. A native of today’s Malatya (Turkey), Jacob Bar-Salibi ended his clerical career as Metropolitan of modern Diyarbakir from 1166 on; here he died and was buried in 1171. “As to us Syriacs,” he specified to an Armenian audience, “we descend racially [sic] from Shem, and our father is Kemuel [the] son of Aram20, and from this name of Aram we are also called sometimes in the Books by the name of ‘Arameans’.”21 Like Bar Salibi, Michael the Elder (d. 1199) was born in Malatya. During his Patriarchate (1166-), he completed a voluminous chronicle in 1195. In this work, the Aramaic pages 7, 1722 and 748ff. are of particular interest to those concerned with the historical identity of the Syriacs. His explication of Gen. 10:22 (cf. above and n. 20) on p. 7 is captivating: “The sons of Shem (are): the Assyrians, the Chaldeans, the Ludians, the Arameans who are the Syrians, the Hebrews and the Persians.” On p. 748, Michael appended a highly interesting exposition on the pre-Christian history of his people to his Chronography. It commences thus: “[… t]he kingdoms which have been established in Antiquity by our race, (that of) the Aramaeans, namely the descendants of Aram, who were called Syrians.”23

We have just seen that a few of the most celebrated scholars of Syriac Christianity, and there are also others like them, were indeed very conscious of their ancient-old Aramean identity. As Christian Arameans, or Syriacs, they continued to view themselves as the sons of Aram – their legendary ancestor; frankly, to the best of my knowledge, there exist no pre-19th century manuscripts in Edessan Aramaic wherein ‘Ashur’ surfaces as the self-professed forefather. If the Syriac intelligentsia thought and believed they were (the heirs of the) Arameans, how much more would the common folks and the masses have cherished this conviction?24 I want to elaborate a little more on this issue, for I do not think that we can ever overrate the explicit and indisputable written evidence of the self-testimonies of the intellectual forefront of Syriac society, which clearly appeared to thrive from Ephrem’s century on. In fact, this argument of self-perception – to my mind, the most cogent of all – still goes largely unnoticed by many experts and scholars not familiar with Syriac-Aramaic Studies. Small wonder, then, that historians claimed that the Arameans were also lost in the mists of history. Unfortunately, this part of history is even unknown to the bulk of the Syriac people. Thus it was chiefly for them that their rich and unique, but ‘buried’, legacy was revealed and charted by scholars in The Hidden Pearl: The Syriac Orthodox Church and The Aramaic Heritage (Rome, 2001).

Offline Shahin

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2015, 05:55:06 PM »
C'mon stop with all these quotes -_-
When Aphrem said on BarDaysan "Philosphous d'Oromoye", by Oromoye he meant  Pagans because he never cautioned BarDaysan sayings. 
Oromoye was often used as Pagan, if you search on dictionaries you will see it.
Plus seriously, the Arameans did not see themselves as a nation and they never had, they assimilated themselves in the empires where they were brought... For example, what is one the greatest literary work made during the antiquity in an Aramean language ? The sayings of Ahiqar, talking about the Assyrians etc. Why did the Aramean were unable to wrote a literary work on their history ? Because they never saw themselves as a nation.
Instead the Assyrian used a language called "Sureyt" to wrote the sayings/words of Ahiqar, what means "Sureyt" ?
Because the Assyrian saw themselves as a nation, today there is a people using the name Assyrian to identify itself and everyone aggree that Syrian/Suryoye/Suraye/Suryaye comes from Ashur, no one can deny it.

I mean, is there a people today that call themselves Aramean ? No, do we use the name Oromoye to identify our people ? No, Do we use the name Aramean to name our language ? No.
Is there someone in Tur'abdin/Nineveh/Gozarto/Urmia using the name "Oromoye" ? No.

Instead our people used for more than 2500 years the name "Surayeh", "Suryoye", "Sureyt"
The current usage of the Aramean name has been resurected with Aramean nationlists and Baathist puppets 60 years ago. No one heard it and used it (apart from some clergy men).

Then it's true that many of our forefathers(clergymen) used the name Oromoye, both Syriac Orthodox and Church of the East.
But there is many Church fathers who also used Assyrian: Mor Aphrem Barsoum, Mor Michael Rabo, Mor Jacob II and so on...

further readings:
Who are the Assyrians
Syriac Orthodox clergymen and the Assyrian Identity
Aramean crusade against the Assyrian Name & Identity
Identity: Many articles, good readings.
Assyrian nationalistic poems
Some interesting videos to watch

How the Syrianska movement began, in Arabic then explained in Turoyo
.
Gabriel Afram explaning the first wave of Assyrian in Sweden and how they end up devided



Aaaand to finish:
Let it be clear: There was no Aramean movement 60 years ago, The Assyrian movement was the only nationalistic movement among our people before and after the great world wars. Many of our forefathers died during these wars, they were either fighting in the Assyrian Levies or the French Bataillon Assyro-Chaldéen. They were from the Church of the East, Syriac Orthodox/Catholics or Chaldean Church.
They fought for our nation, our religion and our rights.

But, since some decades, some movements such the Arameans, Kaldeans emerged and those co*ard are simply rejecting the Assyrian name, they are rejecting all the works, sacrifices made by the Assyrian movement, like the Assyrian movement did nothing...

Those who are behind these movements are only making money and business, even if they provide humanitarian help for our people (this is really good, but c'mon...), they are condemning our people to be devided.

So one should ask himself, should I support such movements ?

Who is currently fighting in Syria and Iraq ? Gozarto protection forces, Nineveh plains Units, Sootoro (Assyrians ones) and the Dawronoye(Sutoro and MFS). There is no Aramean movement fighting for our rights in the homeland.
ܚܢܢ ܟܠܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ ܡܢ ܐܫܘܪ
We are all Assyrians !

Offline ASHOOR

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2015, 04:14:46 PM »
Sorry, I haven't followed this topic in over a week or more but here is an interesting read I came across a few years ago that may be of importance to this topic:

The Assyrian Identity of Turabdin
http://www.aina.org/ata/20100111165243.htm


ASHOOR
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Offline Neta1991

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2015, 06:57:29 PM »
Did u know that kingdom of Osroene was a West Syriac kingdom and kingdom of adiabene was a east syriac kingdom?

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2015, 10:44:29 AM »
Did u know that kingdom of Osroene was a West Syriac kingdom and kingdom of adiabene was a east syriac kingdom?


Osroene was in the Gzarto/Gzartha region...

Osroene, according to Amir Harrak, was a Syriac-speaking kingdom

source -> "The Ancient Name of Edessa," Amir Harrak, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 51, No. 3 (July 1992): 209-214

http://www.jstor.org/stable/545546?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Osroene was a Greek cultured, Syriac speaking kingdom.

Which makes sense considering Turoyo, including writing, shows Greek influence like the Greek vowel letters in writing instead of the dot vowel system.

Also, Adiabene bordered Osroene and that was also Syriac speaking and Adiabene was in the Assyrian heartlands...


Offline asuryoyo

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2015, 03:22:50 PM »
It doesn't work like that, especially since there are Real Arameans and Pseudo-Arameans.

The Assyrian identity is of those who speak the Syriac language just like the Chaldeans and Pseudo-Arameans

Let me ask you this single question.

Do you believe all Assyrians, Chaldeans, and "Syriac-Arameans" speak one language regardless of dialect, have the same culture, and have the same religion?

If we have 3 MAJOR cultural components that the same across all 3 people, then how are we not all one Assyrian people?

Do you just not prefer the name "Assyrian"?

AHHoni, It doesn't what name you choose but remember that we are all one people with one language, culture, and heritage going back thousands of years.

The name only matters to the outsiders who require a name for us to all identify by. How do you think the average American idiot will think if there's a people with 3 different names? That idiot won't go research into how they're the same people but he'll just think they're separate people who just have a common language when that's not the case at all...

As an example, I never truly tell Nokhraye that I'm Assyrian, I tell them that I'm Mesopotamian.

Ahuno I know, the thing is no one seems to care about the weight of academic scientific proofs when it comes to the identity of our people. What that is prooven a long time ago is still believed by our people to be false or still be a theory and discussing about it. Its already prooven that :

1. The name of our people is derivated and also mean assyrian
2. We come from a historic place where assyrians always cradled
3. Its already prooven that our DNA is not comparative with any others but close to armenian which we also have been neighbors with.
4. The modern culture of akitu, dance, food, religious and other culture can be traced to the ancient assyrians.
5. The language we are speaking is a form that only assyrians speak. Aramaic with akkadian loanwords which is today syriac. No one except assyrians formed this kind of language because no one except them spoke akkadian and aramaic at the same time.

Everything is just logical to everyone that wants to know. Just be wideopened and critical to the sources and the answer of many years fighting is over.

Offline asuryoyo

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2015, 03:34:35 PM »
have you ever noticed that there is a reason to why syriacs call themselves arameans and assyrians, because the greeks called both assyrians and arameans syrians and till this day we are confused. the syriac churchfathers said we are arameans and there must be a reason. We both call ourselves suryoyo/suryaya, maybe becuase the greeks called us syrians and we accepted syrian/suryoyo/suryaya and then we are arameans and assyrians becuase the greeks called both of that people under the name syrians. And we probably accepted that name syrian after christianization and after rome accepted it 300 AD. Then we were under the roman empire influence and we wanted to accept their name syrian because to the east lies the sassanid empire and they were not christians.


Ahuno check out this website WWW.assyrians.n.nu and read about mor mikhoels rabos view of who the suryoyo people are. You can also see original manuscript without falsifying texts. His name is Hanna Hajjar and he lifts up every quote about us as arameans and assyrians and where he discuss and translates what the quote really means and not just what we want to understand and read. Everything based on quotes so everyone can proceed their studies.

Offline Joe25

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2015, 09:01:23 PM »
Sorry, I haven't followed this topic in over a week or more but here is an interesting read I came across a few years ago that may be of importance to this topic:

The Assyrian Identity of Turabdin
http://www.aina.org/ata/20100111165243.htm


ASHOOR


Thanks for the link, that is the most detailed and comprehensive research I've seen on Turabdin. Good to know there is doubt about the origins of where I came from. It's fully Mesopotamian and was part of Assyria.

Offline Cascade

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Re: "When east-assyrians says west assyrians are false?"
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2015, 09:08:53 PM »
in this video in Turoyo)

Nothing against the Westerners as people, but their speech was just never pleasant to me. All I hear is incessant "vowel harmonies" centered on O, persistent guttural consonants (pharyngeal H & pharyngeal A) and dental fricatives (th)....(i.e. "otho, lotho, hoho, boho")

« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:33:05 PM by Neon »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

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