Author Topic: Grammar Discussion  (Read 507 times)

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Offline Român

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Grammar Discussion
« on: March 25, 2017, 08:47:17 AM »
Hi everyone,

I've been looking for places online that describe certain aspects of Assyrian grammar, but whenever I stumble across a new grammar rule, I always want to ask "why" is that, and "how" do you know when to use X and when to use Y... things of that nature.

So I have set out this discussion where anyone (including me :P) can ask grammar questions and hopefully someone here on AV can answer them.

I will then use the information gained to create a FAQ grammar directory, and hopefully publish it to some website, but with minimal "grammar" talk so that it's more understandable and easy to comprehend the question.


An ethnic Romanian learning Assyrian

Offline Român

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2017, 08:59:16 AM »
Question regarding prepositions

1) How do you know the difference between using ܒ ܘܼ ܓܘܼ (b' and goo) when talking about something in a certain language.

 e.g) In Assyrian

"ܒܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣" or "ܓܘܼ ܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣"?

How does this vary when talking about "in" "on" or "through" in general?
An ethnic Romanian learning Assyrian

Offline Qišta

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2017, 11:27:08 AM »
You should make a website to help diaspora connect with their roots.
Finally!

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2017, 11:27:08 AM »

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2017, 02:28:02 PM »
You should make a website to help diaspora connect with their roots.
why don't you? :)

Offline Qišta

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 03:38:09 PM »
why don't you? :)
It's one of my endeavours. But first I need to learn better English in order to reach the entire world. Not every person in diaspora knows arabic.

I'm sensing a bit of hostility.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 03:39:08 PM by Qišta »
Finally!

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 07:13:17 PM »
It's one of my endeavours. But first I need to learn better English in order to reach the entire world. Not every person in diaspora knows arabic.

I'm sensing a bit of hostility.
Because our language is Sureth, not arabi. Why would Assyrians in Diaspora know Arabic? especially the ones born in the diaspora?

Offline Qišta

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 05:18:56 AM »
Because our language is Sureth, not arabi. Why would Assyrians in Diaspora know Arabic? especially the ones born in the diaspora?
Why are you upset that I'm thinking outside of the middle east? The new refugees speak better arabic than english. We should reach out especially to those born in diaspora. They have most likely chosen English or the country host language over suret because its not viable to the place.

And English is currently the world trade and online broad language of choice.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 05:20:22 AM by Qišta »
Finally!

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2017, 06:39:48 PM »
Why are you upset that I'm thinking outside of the middle east? The new refugees speak better arabic than english. We should reach out especially to those born in diaspora. They have most likely chosen English or the country host language over suret because its not viable to the place.

And English is currently the world trade and online broad language of choice.
why aren't they using sureth?

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 01:10:41 AM »
Question regarding prepositions

1) How do you know the difference between using ܒ ܘܼ ܓܘܼ (b' and goo) when talking about something in a certain language.

 e.g) In Assyrian

"ܒܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣" or "ܓܘܼ ܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣"?

How does this vary when talking about "in" "on" or "through" in general?

Gu means in, it can be literal or figurative. Same applies to bgu (ibgu) which means within.

B has a variety of meanings however, when it is used to mean in, it is virtually always figurative. Therefore, there is a tendency to use b instead of gu when speaking figuratively even though gu is still acceptable in a figurative sense.

I understand that in classical dialects, b was used to mean in literally but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. That being said, the literal use of b seems rampant in classical expressions, hymns, prayers, etc that have survived till today. For example, the Lords Prayer starts with "Our father who art in heaven" ie "... b'shmayya". Nowadays, if you were to try and say in heaven literally but without using a formulated expression, quotation etc, you would say "gu shmayya".

Btw, although it is spelt as though it sounds as shmayya, it is typically pronounced shmeyya

On the other side of the coin, you can use gu figuratively and say gu Surit (in Surit) but b'Surit is the more conventional way to say it.

It seems to me that b/bee is used to mean by or through the vast majority of the time, be it literal or figurative. Sometimes people use it to mean "with" or "at" but there are other words for these which are used much more often therefore, I would recommend limiting bee to mean by or through.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 10:12:10 AM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline Cascade

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2017, 10:23:53 PM »
Question regarding prepositions

1) How do you know the difference between using ܒ ܘܼ ܓܘܼ (b' and goo) when talking about something in a certain language.

 e.g) In Assyrian

"ܒܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣" or "ܓܘܼ ܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣"?

How does this vary when talking about "in" "on" or "through" in general?
Goo is like "in" or "inside".

'B can also be used for "in", but I'm not too sure of it.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2017, 11:48:34 AM »
Question regarding prepositions

1) How do you know the difference between using ܒ ܘܼ ܓܘܼ (b' and goo) when talking about something in a certain language.

 e.g) In Assyrian

"ܒܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣" or "ܓܘܼ ܣܘܼܪܝܸܬ̣"?

How does this vary when talking about "in" "on" or "through" in general?

correct formula usage is the former "b'sureth"

Offline Român

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 12:00:51 PM »
Gu means in, it can be literal or figurative. Same applies to mgu which means within.

B has a variety of meanings however, when it is used to mean in, it is virtually always figurative. Therefore, there is a tendency to use b instead of gu when speaking figuratively even though gu is still acceptable in a figurative sense.

I understand that in classical dialects, b was used to mean in literally but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore. That being said, the literal use of b seems rampant in classical expressions, hymns, prayers, etc that have survived till today. For example, the Lords Prayer starts with "Our father who art in heaven" ie "... b'shmayya". Nowadays, if you were to try and say in heaven literally but without using a formulated expression, quotation etc, you would say "gu shmayya".

Btw, although it is spelt as though it sounds as shmayya, it is typically pronounced shmeyya

On the other side of the coin, you can use gu figuratively and say gu Surit (in Surit) but b'Surit is the more conventional way to say it.

It seems to me that b/bee is used to mean by or through the vast majority of the time, be it literal or figurative. Sometimes people use it to mean "with" or "at" but there are other words for these which are used much more often therefore, I would recommend limiting bee to mean by or through.

Thanks for the explanation... :-) So words that use B' are phrases that most likely have remained unchanged from classical to Modern Sureth?
An ethnic Romanian learning Assyrian

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Grammar Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2017, 10:48:30 AM »
I should make a correction; "bgu" (ibgu) is "within" whereas "mgu" (imgu) is "through, by means of etc".

Thanks for the explanation... :-) So words that use B' are phrases that most likely have remained unchanged from classical to Modern Sureth?


Sometimes, people still use b to mean various things such as "by, at, in, with, by means of, through, per, next to, near etc" but there are other words that are far more common and recommended. B is virtually a prepositional embodiment of the ablative, locative and instrumental cases; I reckon it's about as dynamic as the English words "by" and "with" if they were only one word. Since b can mean so many things, it is best to understand it's dynamic application yet be reliant on more-precise words; that being said, b has a critical role in stock phrases (as I mentioned) and as a means of modifying verbs. For example, vur (/evir/āvir) = enter, vur l = pass, vur b = cross, vur al = transgress. When not affixed to a word, b is usually divided into two variants.

Ib/eb.
As far as i've heard it being used, the ib/eb variant only means at or in. It is usually figurative, but when it's not, it usually means at. Gu is the most common way of saying in.

Bi.
The "bi" variant (the ambiguous one) tends to mean "by, by meas of, through" etc and often represents an instrument -for example, qṭile xa arya bi xa sēpa eb yūma ie he killed a lion with a sword at (during the) day. Notice how the bi was used to indicate the instrument ("a sword") whereas eb was used to indicate a time-frame ("day"). In everyday conversation, a phrase like that is often pronounced contracted by having no articles and connecting the b to adjacent words eg, "qṭile arya'b sēpa'b yūma.

Affixed b.
When a b is affixed to a word like in b'shmayya (in heaven), b'yūma (at day), b'sēpa (using a sword) etc, it may represent any meaning belonging to either ib/eb or bi.


Here's an example of how b can play a wide variety of roles, blug am Adam but qrāya Surit byad xuba  ie be busy along with Adam regarding studying Surit by means of love. Conversely, one can be vaguer yet express the same sentence by saying blug bi Adam bi qrāya Surit bi xuba ie be busy with Adam with studying Surit with love.


Ib/eb conjugates as follows: ibbi/ebbi (at/in me), ibbo/ebbo (at/in her) etc.
Bi conjugates as follows: biyi (by me), biyo (by her) etc.
Gu conjugates as follows: gāwi (in me), gāwo (in her) etc.

I'm only talking about the eastern dialect here but I presume the western one isn't very different in this regard.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 11:16:09 AM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

 

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