Author Topic: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?  (Read 1739 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« on: September 15, 2016, 08:03:00 AM »
Not that I want to ditch the Syriac script (it should be preserved), but the Latin alphabet is omnipresent. It's all around us. It's the most commonly used script in the world. Most of the world uses it and, not to mention, it is even older than Syriac itself! If we use the Latin script for Syriac maybe less and less Assyrians would forget the language? Let's face it, kids growing up in the western world aren't that used to foreign scripts. As such, Syriac might be daunting for them to learn it. Some might even stubbornly refuse to learn the Assyrian speech just because they couldn't grasp its alphabet. So why not teach our language in the Latin alphabet too? I believe it will make young Assyrians more eager to learn the language and speak it in their daily speech. What are your thoughts?


It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 01:40:28 PM »
no.
What purpose would this serve that the Aramaic Alphabet doesn't already solve?
Secondly, the Latin Alphabet cannot support our various sounds that Aramaic already covers.

How about teaching the kids the language and alphabet before they learn latin and english?
I grew up using Latin but that didn't stop me from reading the Sureth alphabet.

Thirdly, the Latin alphabet doesn't sound our similar vowel sounds. How would u represent PtaHa and Zlama in Latin?

If the purpose is purely an educational one, you should be teaching the alphabet before going into the language...
Do English/grammar studies teach English before teaching the latin alphabet? No because we learn that through speech.

Also Latin isn't older than Syriac. Syriac is a derivation of the Aramaic alphabet which was used to form the Greek alphabet which spread and eventually formed into Latin.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 11:48:59 PM »
no.
What purpose would this serve that the Aramaic Alphabet doesn't already solve?
That isn't the point. Latin just seems more convenient in this day and age. So it would seem appropriate to use it.

Quote
Secondly, the Latin Alphabet cannot support our various sounds that Aramaic already covers.
What sounds exactly? The guttural "kh" is supported by that digraph. The emphatic T sound (as heard in Arabic "tamata" = tomato) is supported by a diacritic, or an accent below T. Latin has always been open to such alternatives, whereas other scripts like Cyrillic and Greek aren't. That's why most of the world uses Latin, from Turkey to Indonesia. Latin can easily incorporate "foreign" sounds.

Quote
How about teaching the kids the language and alphabet before they learn latin and english?
I grew up using Latin but that didn't stop me from reading the Sureth alphabet.
Well, this doesn't seem like it's working. You and I are interesting in Syriac alphabet, but many aren't unfortunately.

Quote
Thirdly, the Latin alphabet doesn't sound our similar vowel sounds. How would u represent PtaHa and Zlama in Latin?
What's wrong with our A, E, I, U and O's? They have always represented the Syriac vowels. Again, long vowel sounds can be represented by accents or diacritics above or below a Latin letter. Most European languages have this feature.

Quote
Also Latin isn't older than Syriac. Syriac is a derivation of the Aramaic alphabet which was used to form the Greek alphabet which spread and eventually formed into Latin.
The Syriac script came to be in 200BC after evolving from Aramaic (800BC), which developed from Phoenician (1200BC). The Latin alphabet appeared in 600-700BC, and it was rather close to its "mother" scripts, Etruscan (700BC) and Greek (800BC), which evolved from Phoenician. As you can clearly see here, Aramaic and Greek are the "offspring" of Phoenician, and have spawned their own derivatives or ascendants.

You can say that the Greek script is to Phoenician, like how Syriac is to Aramaic. Now that doesn't mean Greek is over 2000 years old just because its parent script is that age. As such, it's not logical to say that Syriac is "older" than Latin just because Aramaic is.

By the way, Latin still has letters that look similar to Phoenician, whereas Syriac doesn't, despite sharing the same alphabetic names and being an abjad (like Phoenician). A lot of the Latin letters still retain their "ancient" look, whereas Syriac looks almost completely disparate in contrast to Aramaic and Phoenician. Even the Hebrew script barely looks like Phoenician. Funnily, the Aramaic letters look more closer to Latin and Greek, than they do to Syriac and Hebrew. Take a look at Aramaic's aleph and beth, and compare them to Latin's A and B.

I find it strange how Syriac letters evolved to look so much different from Aramaic's letters, whereas Latin and Greek still have a resemblance to some of the Aramaic and Phoenician letters. And even now Syriac has a two-script system that don't look too homogeneous (madnkhaya & estrangela).
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Assyrian Voice Forum

Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 11:48:59 PM »

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2016, 11:56:49 PM »
That isn't the point. Latin just seems more convenient in this day and age. So it would seem appropriate to use it.
What sounds exactly? The guttural "kh" is supported by that digraph. The emphatic T sound (as heard in Arabic "tamata" = tomato) is supported by a diacritic, or an accent below T. Latin has always been open to such alternatives, whereas other scripts like Cyrillic and Greek aren't. That's why most of the world uses Latin, from Turkey to Indonesia. Latin can easily incorporate "foreign" sounds.
Well, this doesn't seem like it's working. You and I are interesting in Syriac alphabet, but many aren't unfortunately.
What's wrong with our A, E, I, U and O's? They have always represented the Syriac vowels. Again, long vowel sounds can be represented by accents or diacritics above or below a Latin letter. Most European languages have this feature.
The Syriac script came to be in 200BC after evolving from Aramaic (800BC), which developed from Phoenician (1200BC). The Latin alphabet appeared in 600-700BC, and it was rather close to its "mother" scripts, Etruscan (700BC) and Greek (800BC), which evolved from Phoenician. As you can clearly see here, Aramaic and Greek are the "offspring" of Phoenician, and have spawned their own derivatives or ascendants.

You can say that the Greek script is to Phoenician, like how Syriac is to Aramaic. Now that doesn't mean Greek is over 2000 years old just because its parent script is that age. As such, it's not logical to say that Syriac is "older" than Latin just because Aramaic is.

By the way, Latin still has letters that look similar to Phoenician, whereas Syriac doesn't, despite sharing the same alphabetic names and being an abjad (like Phoenician). A lot of the Latin letters still retain their "ancient" look, whereas Syriac looks almost completely disparate in contrast to Aramaic and Phoenician. Even the Hebrew script barely looks like Phoenician. Funnily, the Aramaic letters look more closer to Latin and Greek, than they do to Syriac and Hebrew. Take a look at Aramaic's aleph and beth, and compare them to Latin's A and B.

I find it strange how Syriac letters evolved to look so much different from Aramaic's letters, whereas Latin and Greek still have a resemblance to some of the Aramaic and Phoenician letters. And even now Syriac has a two-script system that don't look too homogeneous (madnkhaya & estrangela).

Answer is no and it'll stay no. Argumentum Ad Populum is not a good or sufficient reason to forgo the Syriac Alphabet.

Just because Turkey or Indonesia use Latin script doesn't mean we should... Both countries also use and teach Arabic because of the Qur'an. What about that?

Should we also adopt Arabic for Assyrians living in Arabic countries so they can use it for Sureth?

Secondly, how is it that Jewish kids learn Hebrew + Alphabet without asking for a Latin variant?

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 03:50:58 AM »
Answer is no and it'll stay no. Argumentum Ad Populum is not a good or sufficient reason to forgo the Syriac Alphabet.

Just because Turkey or Indonesia use Latin script doesn't mean we should... Both countries also use and teach Arabic because of the Qur'an. What about that?

Should we also adopt Arabic for Assyrians living in Arabic countries so they can use it for Sureth?

Secondly, how is it that Jewish kids learn Hebrew + Alphabet without asking for a Latin variant?
I'm not changing your opinion. I just stated my reasons and gave you answers, because you asked me questions.

I don't think the "ad populum" argument is relevant here, because I did say that Latin is more convenient in this day and age. Sometimes the ad populum argument can be efficient and worthy (like for religion, politics or a fandom), but for other cases it's really unnecessary and it shouldn't be thrown out thoughtlessly. I'm taking about convenience or something that is a necessity - Like a phone, TV, or the internet. Most of the world has these and would rely on these. Now you wouldn't say "just because everyone has a phone, doesn't mean I should too". Phone, internet, what you're typing in right now (Latin), are vital to our world, at least in our countries. So the "ad populum" argument really has nothing on this.

And what about these countries teaching the Quran in Arabic? We can also teach Assyrians the bible in Syriac too. It's no biggie. I won't stand against that.

There are 15 million Jews. They have centers where the Hebrew alphabet is taught. They have a nation. And they're well supported. We're not. Jews also seem very enthusiastic about their heritage and culture. Hebrew is even seen and promoted in Hollywood media. Perhaps that's another thing that entices young Jews to learn the language. And Syriac? I don't see it anywhere outside our culture. But again, that isn't the point, because I never said that Latin should replace Syriac.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 12:20:01 PM »
I'm not changing your opinion. I just stated my reasons and gave you answers, because you asked me questions.

I don't think the "ad populum" argument is relevant here, because I did say that Latin is more convenient in this day and age. Sometimes the ad populum argument can be efficient and worthy (like for religion, politics or a fandom), but for other cases it's really unnecessary and it shouldn't be thrown out thoughtlessly. I'm taking about convenience or something that is a necessity - Like a phone, TV, or the internet. Most of the world has these and would rely on these. Now you wouldn't say "just because everyone has a phone, doesn't mean I should too". Phone, internet, what you're typing in right now (Latin), are vital to our world, at least in our countries. So the "ad populum" argument really has nothing on this.

And what about these countries teaching the Quran in Arabic? We can also teach Assyrians the bible in Syriac too. It's no biggie. I won't stand against that.

There are 15 million Jews. They have centers where the Hebrew alphabet is taught. They have a nation. And they're well supported. We're not. Jews also seem very enthusiastic about their heritage and culture. Hebrew is even seen and promoted in Hollywood media. Perhaps that's another thing that entices young Jews to learn the language. And Syriac? I don't see it anywhere outside our culture. But again, that isn't the point, because I never said that Latin should replace Syriac.

no, the ad populum "argument" is not an argument...

"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument[\b] that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: 'If many believe so, it is so.'"

Your argument that it's convenient and omnipresent as a reason to use Latin is because many people use it. That is a fallacy as learning alphabets doesn't hinder learning...

So no, a "logical fallacy" cannot be "efficient" or "Worthy"

Also, how do you explain the learning of the Hebrew alphabet before Israel? Hebrew was revived during the 1800s with kids learning and reading the Hebrew Alphabet, especially Jews coming from countries where the Latin alphabet was in wide use.

They even went so far as to use Hebrew to replace the Latin alphabet in German writing (look up Yiddish)...

So again, No there won't and never will be a Latin variant for Syriac. The Soviets attempted a Cyrillic variant for Syriac and that didn't work.

we already have 3 Alphabet styles to choose from, pick 1,2, or all 3 and that's the end of it.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 10:27:24 PM »
no, the ad populum "argument" is not an argument...

"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument[\b] that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: 'If many believe so, it is so.'"

Your argument that it's convenient and omnipresent as a reason to use Latin is because many people use it. That is a fallacy as learning alphabets doesn't hinder learning...

So no, a "logical fallacy" cannot be "efficient" or "Worthy"
Well, your quote does say that it is an argument. And this isn't a belief. I don't think that using Latin is the way to go just because I "believe" it. There is no truth or false here.

Many people use it for its convenience, not because it's popular. Forget about "other people" - In Facebook, Assyrian themselves type in Latin when they're using Assyrian words. Most Assyrians live in countries that use the Latin script. Obviously, this is more about necessity and convenience (like using the TV, phone, internet). There is no logical fallacy here. Ironically, you're the one having one - You're making a false equivalence.

Quote
Also, how do you explain the learning of the Hebrew alphabet before Israel? Hebrew was revived during the 1800s with kids learning and reading the Hebrew Alphabet, especially Jews coming from countries where the Latin alphabet was in wide use.

They even went so far as to use Hebrew to replace the Latin alphabet in German writing (look up Yiddish)...

So again, No there won't and never will be a Latin variant for Syriac. The Soviets attempted a Cyrillic variant for Syriac and that didn't work.
Good for them? Again you're implying that I somehow want Latin to replace Syriac.

Quote
we already have 3 Alphabet styles to choose from, pick 1,2, or all 3 and that's the end of it.
It's funny. We're known to be divided and against each other with rivaling tribes, and yet, on top of that, even our script has three distinct variations. Maybe Syriac would've been a lot easier and less daunting if it had just ONE, unequivocal script taught to us? I don't care if it's estrangela, madnkhaya or serto. We should've ditched the other two and STUCK with one of them. And I hope you'd agree with that, since you also want unity and oneness.

I, for one, am used to madnkhaya, like many Assyrians, and yet computer system only utilize the estrangela script. At the church, it's 50/50 - Estrangela here, madnkhaya here. It's just frustrating and downright disorienting. I don't think that this will motivate people to learn Syriac when it has more than one scripts. -_-
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 08:21:59 PM »
Well, your quote does say that it is an argument. And this isn't a belief. I don't think that using Latin is the way to go just because I "believe" it. There is no truth or false here.

Many people use it for its convenience, not because it's popular. Forget about "other people" - In Facebook, Assyrian themselves type in Latin when they're using Assyrian words. Most Assyrians live in countries that use the Latin script. Obviously, this is more about necessity and convenience (like using the TV, phone, internet). There is no logical fallacy here. Ironically, you're the one having one - You're making a false equivalence.
Good for them? Again you're implying that I somehow want Latin to replace Syriac.


It's funny. We're known to be divided and against each other with rivaling tribes, and yet, on top of that, even our script has three distinct variations. Maybe Syriac would've been a lot easier and less daunting if it had just ONE, unequivocal script taught to us? I don't care if it's estrangela, madnkhaya or serto. We should've ditched the other two and STUCK with one of them. And I hope you'd agree with that, since you also want unity and oneness.

I, for one, am used to madnkhaya, like many Assyrians, and yet computer system only utilize the estrangela script. At the church, it's 50/50 - Estrangela here, madnkhaya here. It's just frustrating and downright disorienting. I don't think that this will motivate people to learn Syriac when it has more than one scripts. -_-

My point is that you can't have a Latin variant because, by reading how you propose Latin's use for educating the Syriac language, it'll be used a crutch that will not facilitate better retainment for Syriac.

My new book has already dealt with the 3 alphabet styles.

Here's an excerpt from my book.

"We have three writing styles: Estrangela/Estrangelo, Serta/Serto, and MadnHaya/MadnHoyo. As part of the Standard Syriac proposal, I propose that Assyrians teach and use Serto/Serta as the official handwriting style, MadnHaya/MadnHoyo as the official printing and academic writing style, and Estrangela/Estrangelo as the official government, Book/Reading material title, religious, and legal writing style."

Problem solved, use all 3 for different stuff.

Serto for handwriting and written Syriac, MadnHaya for academic, and Estrangelo for formal.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 11:35:24 PM »
My point is that you can't have a Latin variant because, by reading how you propose Latin's use for educating the Syriac language, it'll be used a crutch that will not facilitate better retainment for Syriac.

My new book has already dealt with the 3 alphabet styles.

Here's an excerpt from my book.

"We have three writing styles: Estrangela/Estrangelo, Serta/Serto, and MadnHaya/MadnHoyo. As part of the Standard Syriac proposal, I propose that Assyrians teach and use Serto/Serta as the official handwriting style, MadnHaya/MadnHoyo as the official printing and academic writing style, and Estrangela/Estrangelo as the official government, Book/Reading material title, religious, and legal writing style."

Problem solved, use all 3 for different stuff.

Serto for handwriting and written Syriac, MadnHaya for academic, and Estrangelo for formal.
Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't really solve the problem for me. People can still come across these Syriac scripts and be confused. And the fact that you just implemented three scripts to be used in all corners makes it even more difficult and confusing for readers, considering that we only use madnkhaya and estrangela generally (rarely Serto). And that's pesky enough. Why include another?

I say, how about use just ONE Syriac form for every department (education, formal, handwriting, etc)? You are all for unity and oneness of the Syriac language, so why not also opt for a SINGLE Syriac script to be used by all, easterners and westerners alike?

Oh and how do I get hold of your book? Is it online?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2016, 02:48:31 AM »
Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion.

Doesn't really solve the problem for me. People can still come across these Syriac scripts and be confused. And the fact that you just implemented three scripts to be used in all corners makes it even more difficult and confusing for readers, considering that we only use madnkhaya and estrangela generally (rarely Serto). And that's pesky enough. Why include another?

I say, how about use just ONE Syriac form for every department (education, formal, handwriting, etc)? You are all for unity and oneness of the Syriac language, so why not also opt for a SINGLE Syriac script to be used by all, easterners and westerners alike?

Oh and how do I get hold of your book? Is it online?

Alright, I'll ask a few questions on this...

Firstly, How hard is learning Syriac that you can't learn all 3 writing styles?

Secondly, we can't remove or use a writing style over others because then how will we read ancient/classical texts written in the other styles?

Thirdly, Look at the names of our writing styles...

Formally and Officially, Estranglo Syriac is the very original writing style obviously.

Madnhaya (eastern) is also named as Swadaya (conversational) meaning Eastern style is informal or used for conversational Syriac as opposed to "written" Syriac and formal tone.

Then there's Serto (scratch) which is also called psheeTa (simplified) style meaning Serto is a simplified form of either Estrangelo or Eastern style but regardless, it's simplified.

It is for these reasons that I want Serto used for handwriting, Eastern for academic and informal spaces, and Estrangelo for everything else.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2016, 09:32:48 AM »
Alright, I'll ask a few questions on this...

Firstly, How hard is learning Syriac that you can't learn all 3 writing styles?
It's not about how hard Syriac is. It's about common sense and convenience. Nearly every language has one script, and its people are taught that script. I know you're gonna be like "what about [insert language], they're taught 20 scripts!", I'd wager that it's just a few ethnicities.

We are already a minority, mostly divided, and yet you expect us to learn three writing styles? This would divide us more. And I'm baffled that this is coming you, the person who is very against the dozens of Syriac dialects and such. Interestingly, most countries or regions with one script have dozens of dialects and even languages. So you can see that even in the other parts of the world it's the norm to have so many dialects and languages united with one script, rather than the other way round.

On a subjective note, Madnhaya is the easiest. Maybe it's because we were taught that, but it has always looked the most basic. The other two haven't been so intelligible to me.

Quote
Secondly, we can't remove or use a writing style over others because then how will we read ancient/classical texts written in the other styles?
There were always be a time when scripts evolve and modern readers can't comprehend them. That is inevitable. Syriac already looks different from Aramaic, and who's to say that it won't evolve anymore.

Aren't you for young Assyrians learning and understanding the modern Syriac script? Isn't that the pivotal part here? Not sure why the classical texts would be vital to them. Maybe, if we're not that lazy, we can translate the older forms to madnkhaya.

Quote
Thirdly, Look at the names of our writing styles...

Formally and Officially, Estranglo Syriac is the very original writing style obviously.

Madnhaya (eastern) is also named as Swadaya (conversational) meaning Eastern style is informal or used for conversational Syriac as opposed to "written" Syriac and formal tone.

Then there's Serto (scratch) which is also called psheeTa (simplified) style meaning Serto is a simplified form of either Estrangelo or Eastern style but regardless, it's simplified.

It is for these reasons that I want Serto used for handwriting, Eastern for academic and informal spaces, and Estrangelo for everything else.
Tbh, that's asking for too much. You can't expect Assyrians to learn all of these. Even my family, raised in the Assyrian church, barely understands estrangelo, and serto is completely alien to them. Again, shoving three scripts on Assyrians will just scare people away. Not to mention, most Assyrians are familiar with one or two of the scripts. The average person wouldn't be so knowledgeable with all of them. And you can't expect that average person to learn them all at once.

In a nutshell, if you want ONE standard Syriac dialect spoken by all of us then you have to be consistent and opt for ONE standard Syriac script. Plain and simple. No need to play favourites.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2016, 02:38:32 PM »
It's not about how hard Syriac is. It's about common sense and convenience. Nearly every language has one script, and its people are taught that script. I know you're gonna be like "what about [insert language], they're taught 20 scripts!", I'd wager that it's just a few ethnicities.

We are already a minority, mostly divided, and yet you expect us to learn three writing styles? This would divide us more. And I'm baffled that this is coming you, the person who is very against the dozens of Syriac dialects and such. Interestingly, most countries or regions with one script have dozens of dialects and even languages. So you can see that even in the other parts of the world it's the norm to have so many dialects and languages united with one script, rather than the other way round.

On a subjective note, Madnhaya is the easiest. Maybe it's because we were taught that, but it has always looked the most basic. The other two haven't been so intelligible to me.
There were always be a time when scripts evolve and modern readers can't comprehend them. That is inevitable. Syriac already looks different from Aramaic, and who's to say that it won't evolve anymore.

Aren't you for young Assyrians learning and understanding the modern Syriac script? Isn't that the pivotal part here? Not sure why the classical texts would be vital to them. Maybe, if we're not that lazy, we can translate the older forms to madnkhaya.
Tbh, that's asking for too much. You can't expect Assyrians to learn all of these. Even my family, raised in the Assyrian church, barely understands estrangelo, and serto is completely alien to them. Again, shoving three scripts on Assyrians will just scare people away. Not to mention, most Assyrians are familiar with one or two of the scripts. The average person wouldn't be so knowledgeable with all of them. And you can't expect that average person to learn them all at once.

In a nutshell, if you want ONE standard Syriac dialect spoken by all of us then you have to be consistent and opt for ONE standard Syriac script. Plain and simple. No need to play favourites.

in that case, I'll opt for Estrangelo since it's universally used by all 3 of our major churches.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2017, 08:30:31 PM »
in that case, I'll opt for Estrangelo since it's universally used by all 3 of our major churches.
Are you more familiar with Estrangelo than with Madnhaya?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 11:16:06 AM »
Are you more familiar with Estrangelo than with Madnhaya?
quite the same, I can read Estrangela, MadnHaya, and SerTo just fine.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 03:43:09 AM »
Here is the Latin Syriac alphabet:

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 03:50:00 AM »
Ā is used to denote a long A sound or [ɑː] as heard in "car"
Ḏ is used to represent the voiced "th" sound as heard in "that"
Ē is used to denote an "ee" sound or [eː]
Ĕ is to represent an "eh" sound or /ˈɛ/
Ḥ represents a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (/ħ/)
Ō represents a long O sound or /ɔː/
Š is consanguineous to the digraph "Sh"
Ṣ denotes an emphatic "S
Ṭ is an emphatic "T"
Ū is used to represent an "oo" sound or the Close back rounded vowel /uː/

Further information: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Assyrian/Latin_Alphabet

If Turks and Kurds can implement the Latin alphabet, why can't we? It seems very simple and efficient. I know the sounds now for each letter. Took me a few days to learn them. I'd hope that these letters are integrated in computer keyboards. If people find the Syriac alphabet arduous (as I do), then why not teach them the rather simple Latin variant that is even used by scholars and historians?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 01:09:23 PM »
Ā is used to denote a long A sound or [ɑː] as heard in "car"
Ḏ is used to represent the voiced "th" sound as heard in "that"
Ē is used to denote an "ee" sound or [eː]
Ĕ is to represent an "eh" sound or /ˈɛ/
Ḥ represents a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (/ħ/)
Ō represents a long O sound or /ɔː/
Š is consanguineous to the digraph "Sh"
Ṣ denotes an emphatic "S
Ṭ is an emphatic "T"
Ū is used to represent an "oo" sound or the Close back rounded vowel /uː/

Further information: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Assyrian/Latin_Alphabet

If Turks and Kurds can implement the Latin alphabet, why can't we? It seems very simple and efficient. I know the sounds now for each letter. Took me a few days to learn them. I'd hope that these letters are integrated in computer keyboards. If people find the Syriac alphabet arduous (as I do), then why not teach them the rather simple Latin variant that is even used by scholars and historians?


you find the syriac alphabet arduous because you "don't have time". Secondly, Turks and Kurds put in Latin because Turks don't have a native alphabet to use like we do and Kurds were forced by Turks to use the latin alphabet or "else"...

Syriac alphabet is not hard, I learned by myself from wikipedia. I taught it to my self during high school and Carlo helped me fix the mistakes I was doing.
We're gonna use the Syriac alphabet. What does the Latin Alphabet do that the Syriac alphabet cannot already do?

It sounds like you're just forcing people to switch because you already know the latin alphabet more than sureth alphabet and you wanna make up for it by changing the whole thing.

We're not changing our time-tested and finely tuned alphabet.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 09:05:50 PM »
you find the syriac alphabet arduous because you "don't have time". Secondly, Turks and Kurds put in Latin because Turks don't have a native alphabet to use like we do and Kurds were forced by Turks to use the latin alphabet or "else"...
No, the Syriac alphabet is challenging. I've been learning it since I was 11 and it still takes time to read through a word, let a lone a sentence. You admitted this too.

Quote
Syriac alphabet is not hard, I learned by myself from wikipedia. I taught it to my self during high school and Carlo helped me fix the mistakes I was doing.
We're gonna use the Syriac alphabet. What does the Latin Alphabet do that the Syriac alphabet cannot already do?
Well, it isn't that hard. But it certainly is challenging. For starters, it's a cursive script. They're known to be the most difficult, anyway.

Whatever the Latin alphabet does, it does it easier. It's just more simpler, and I'm not being subjective.

Quote
It sounds like you're just forcing people to switch because you already know the latin alphabet more than sureth alphabet and you wanna make up for it by changing the whole thing.
Don't confuse an alternative with "switching" or replacing.

What "YOU already know the Latin alphabet"? EVERYBODY knows the Latin alphabet. -_-

Quote
We're not changing our time-tested and finely tuned alphabet.
Who is changing the Syriac alphabet? If I added letters to the Syriac alphabet then yes, that is changing. But then again, the Syriac alphabet has been amended to death. We have three Syriac scripts and, on top of that, the script has physically changed throughout the centuries massively. Compare it to the Aramaic alphabet and you'll be embarrassed at how different it looks to it. Heck, even Latin looks a lot like Aramaic alphabet than Syriac does.  :giggle:

Syriac alphabet just retained the sounds, despite altering the letters. That's still disappointing. Why change the look of the letters? And why have three synchronous systems? That's a huge flaw. Perhaps an excuse for us to be more divided, especially in church.  :blink:

If you read my posts clearly, you'd know that I said I want the Latin alphabet to be used as an alternative. It can be an incentive for people to learn the language, as they may find the script daunting and scary. For me, SPEAKING the language matters. NOT the script. You should also count the language as a first priority.

P.S. Didn't you say that you're not a good Suret speaker? Well, tbh, I wouldn't take so much pride in myself if I fluently read a script, but couldn't understand the language. You should've take time studying the language and its vocab, rather than learning the script. What use is there when you read something but can't comprehend the meaning?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 12:40:16 PM »
No, the Syriac alphabet is challenging. I've been learning it since I was 11 and it still takes time to read through a word, let a lone a sentence. You admitted this too.
you suck at this then lmao. regardless, I can still read words, sentences, and even paragraphs of Sureth. Why? Because I still try. You only get better with practice and you want to throw away the towel. I have no respect for quitters. When I quit something, I don't even respect myself on that.

Well, it isn't that hard. But it certainly is challenging. For starters, it's a cursive script. They're known to be the most difficult, anyway.
yet I learned the cursive parts in high school... Secondly, it's alot faster to write it cursively. Even Hebrew has a cursive form although it's very weird but still.

Whatever the Latin alphabet does, it does it easier. It's just more simpler, and I'm not being subjective.
Don't confuse an alternative with "switching" or replacing.
orly, like what? What does Latin have that makes it much easier and simpler compared to what Syriac does considering we've been using Syriac for over 2,000 years even when Latin existed...

What "YOU already know the Latin alphabet"? EVERYBODY knows the Latin alphabet. -_-
citation needed

Who is changing the Syriac alphabet? If I added letters to the Syriac alphabet then yes, that is changing. But then again, the Syriac alphabet has been amended to death. We have three Syriac scripts and, on top of that, the script has physically changed throughout the centuries massively. Compare it to the Aramaic alphabet and you'll be embarrassed at how different it looks to it. Heck, even Latin looks a lot like Aramaic alphabet than Syriac does.  :giggle:

Syriac alphabet just retained the sounds, despite altering the letters. That's still disappointing. Why change the look of the letters? And why have three synchronous systems? That's a huge flaw. Perhaps an excuse for us to be more divided, especially in church.  :blink:

If you read my posts clearly, you'd know that I said I want the Latin alphabet to be used as an alternative. It can be an incentive for people to learn the language, as they may find the script daunting and scary. For me, SPEAKING the language matters. NOT the script. You should also count the language as a first priority.

P.S. Didn't you say that you're not a good Suret speaker? Well, tbh, I wouldn't take so much pride in myself if I fluently read a script, but couldn't understand the language. You should've take time studying the language and its vocab, rather than learning the script. What use is there when you read something but can't comprehend the meaning?

"Compare it to the Aramaic alphabet and you'll be embarrassed at how different it looks to it"
Says the guy with the signature saying "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, but the one most responsive to change". You changed your mind on that so fast!

The look of the letters change when there's no standard system applied to everybody which is why I'm organizing a standard form of Syriac.
secondly, learning the 3 styles of writing isn't hard at all. If it was hard, how was I able to make a whole chart teaching all 3 systems?

Stop whining and study harder lol.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 10:20:29 PM »
you suck at this then lmao. regardless, I can still read words, sentences, and even paragraphs of Sureth. Why? Because I still try. You only get better with practice and you want to throw away the towel. I have no respect for quitters. When I quit something, I don't even respect myself on that.
Of course I suck. I thought I admitted that. Sometimes people naturally have no ability to fluently learn a language, a script or anything. It just won't happen. My friend still has an Iranian accent, despite coming here as a preteen in 2003. He just cannot have an Australian accent.

I still study the Syriac script, but I know I won't become a natural in it. Nobody's said that I quit. I'm all about convenience, and Latin comes across as such.

Quote
orly, like what? What does Latin have that makes it much easier and simpler compared to what Syriac does considering we've been using Syriac for over 2,000 years even when Latin existed...
Don't orly this. You know very well that Latin is very easy. You're even writing in it right now. Lmao.

Quote
citation needed
No citation needed. Over 75% of the world uses the Latin script, from those in Africa to native Canadians.

Quote
"Compare it to the Aramaic alphabet and you'll be embarrassed at how different it looks to it"
Says the guy with the signature saying "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, but the one most responsive to change". You changed your mind on that so fast!
Yeah, because languages are species. And it's not like I was accustomed to the older Aramaic scripts? We were all grown with the modern Syriac script. So nice try.

Quote
The look of the letters change when there's no standard system applied to everybody which is why I'm organizing a standard form of Syriac.
secondly, learning the 3 styles of writing isn't hard at all. If it was hard, how was I able to make a whole chart teaching all 3 systems?
Well, you probably dedicated a lot of time and hardship to fluently learn the script. Good for you I guess? But you must know that everybody is like you.

Quote
Stop whining and study harder lol.
And you should study the Assyrian vocab harder. Lmao.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2017, 12:20:28 AM »
Of course I suck. I thought I admitted that. Sometimes people naturally have no ability to fluently learn a language, a script or anything. It just won't happen. My friend still has an Iranian accent, despite coming here as a preteen in 2003. He just cannot have an Australian accent.
that's your fault then.

Don't orly this. You know very well that Latin is very easy. You're even writing in it right now. Lmao.

ܝܐܠܗܐ, ܟܬܒ݂ܝܢ ܒܠܫܢܐ ܣܘܪܝܬ݂. ܐܢܐ ܒܟܬܒ݂ܝܢ ܒܠܛܢ ܡܢ ܗܟ݂ܢ ܡܕܪܫܝܢ ܒܚܝܠܐ ܡܠܦܝܠܝܗ ܠܫܢܐ ܐܢܓܠܝܬ

Latin is not very easy, the only reason you and me know is because we were forced to learn it in the West...

If the West was using Klingon, you'd be asking to implement Klingon...

No citation needed. Over 75% of the world uses the Latin script, from those in Africa to native Canadians.
Canada uses the Latin Script though, so do certain countries in Africa...

Yeah, because languages are species. And it's not like I was accustomed to the older Aramaic scripts? We were all grown with the modern Syriac script. So nice try.
Well, you probably dedicated a lot of time and hardship to fluently learn the script. Good for you I guess? But you must know that everybody is like you.
And you should study the Assyrian vocab harder. Lmao.
[/quote]

Languages are tools, switching to Latin presents no benefits.
Are you asking for this for business/economic reasons? What's the point when business people still need to learn the language...

Secondly, why Latin and why not Greek? Why not Hebrew? Why not Arabic?

We're not switching alphabets, end of discussion.

Offline Sharukinu

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • www.AssyrianVoice.net
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 12:28:21 PM »
There are two things we are trying to preserve here.

A) The spoken language -  knowledge of the language in it's natural form.
B) The script - knowledge of how to write A.

B is easy to learn, it doesn't take long at all to learn a script. What's hard is teaching someone a language. B is entirely dependent on the existence of A but, A is not dependent on B.

A is the priority and I see B as merely a vessel by which A stays afloat. Therefore, I propose we adopt the Latin script to maximise the preservation of A. The Latin script is well known throughout the world, even by Assyrians. The Latin script has been heavily integrated into modern technology and society therefore, to use it as the medium to write Assyrian, is to maximise our opportunities to write Assyrian, increasing the likelihood of A's survival.

Once we have our own state, then we can implement our own script. Our survival is dependent on the preservation of our identity. Our language is the key to preserving our identity. Right now, the survival of our language is dependent on our malleability. We need to make this sacrifice and move on to a Latinate script for the time being.

This will mean that we will have so many more Assyrians communicating to each other online in Surit - we will still have our "mrzurnachis" who will go the step further by learning the traditional script but that nostalgia or sense of tradition should not necessitate communal loyalty to conventional use of a script which will impede our efforts to keep the language alive and well.

“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline Kosovo1389

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 508
  • Gender: Male
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2017, 01:40:00 PM »
This is such a suicidal idea to adopt Latin. Rev. Rasho here in LA has put in so much time and effort to teach this alphabet to the people to combat illiteracy, which is especially common in CA among Assyrians.
Zivjela Srbija.

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2017, 05:04:28 PM »
There are two things we are trying to preserve here.

A) The spoken language -  knowledge of the language in it's natural form.
B) The script - knowledge of how to write A.

B is easy to learn, it doesn't take long at all to learn a script. What's hard is teaching someone a language. B is entirely dependent on the existence of A but, A is not dependent on B.

A is the priority and I see B as merely a vessel by which A stays afloat. Therefore, I propose we adopt the Latin script to maximise the preservation of A. The Latin script is well known throughout the world, even by Assyrians. The Latin script has been heavily integrated into modern technology and society therefore, to use it as the medium to write Assyrian, is to maximise our opportunities to write Assyrian, increasing the likelihood of A's survival.

Once we have our own state, then we can implement our own script. Our survival is dependent on the preservation of our identity. Our language is the key to preserving our identity. Right now, the survival of our language is dependent on our malleability. We need to make this sacrifice and move on to a Latinate script for the time being.

This will mean that we will have so many more Assyrians communicating to each other online in Surit - we will still have our "mrzurnachis" who will go the step further by learning the traditional script but that nostalgia or sense of tradition should not necessitate communal loyalty to conventional use of a script which will impede our efforts to keep the language alive and well.



OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...

Offline Sharukinu

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • www.AssyrianVoice.net
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2017, 06:34:24 PM »
This is such a suicidal idea to adopt Latin. Rev. Rasho here in LA has put in so much time and effort to teach this alphabet to the people to combat illiteracy, which is especially common in CA among Assyrians.

It's not a suicidal idea, it's exactly the opposite. We can lose knowledge of the script and regain it easily in a single generation but if we lose knowledge of the language, we have no hope. We need to maximise the number of Assyrians who can speak Assyrian, their fluency, and the amount that the language is used in practice. If you want to keep the language alive, the Latin alphabet is the way to get the largest number of Assyrians communicating to each other in writing in Assyrian and therefore, keep the language alive.



OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...

Mrzurnachi, we have to stick with the most practical solution. If every Assyrian was like me or you, we wouldn't have much of a need to use the Latin script - although it would still be technologically convenient. We need to keep the language alive - the script is secondary. In this case, sticking to the traditional Assyrian scripts will actually reduce the amount of time Assyrians spend writing in Assyrian. We are stateless and scattered, we need to keep our language alive and the Latin script is the most effective way to do that because it is the most convenient way to do that and people don't just lean towards convenience, their addicted to it.

Let's take this forum as an example. Guess how many users here can hold a conversation in Assyrian - I'm guessing 60-80%. Now guess how many of them know how to read and write in our any of our traditional scripts; now guess how many of those have access, or are bothered, to install the script on their computer, maybe buy an Assyrian-Latinate keybaord etc. ..Sticking to our traditional script will certainly reduce the amount that Assyrian is communicated through writing.

Now imagine we used the Latin script to express ourselves; of that 60-80%, we might actually get half to regularly speak to each other in Assyrian online. This is not to devalue or forsake our Script, it is to keep our language alive. Try having a written conversation here, with our users, in Surit - it won't happen except among a very small group of individuals. That's preventing us from using our language and, if you don't use it, you lose it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 06:35:49 PM by Sharukinu »
“It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another.”

― Titus Livy

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2017, 08:00:51 PM »
It's not a suicidal idea, it's exactly the opposite. We can lose knowledge of the script and regain it easily in a single generation but if we lose knowledge of the language, we have no hope. We need to maximise the number of Assyrians who can speak Assyrian, their fluency, and the amount that the language is used in practice. If you want to keep the language alive, the Latin alphabet is the way to get the largest number of Assyrians communicating to each other in writing in Assyrian and therefore, keep the language alive.



Mrzurnachi, we have to stick with the most practical solution. If every Assyrian was like me or you, we wouldn't have much of a need to use the Latin script - although it would still be technologically convenient. We need to keep the language alive - the script is secondary. In this case, sticking to the traditional Assyrian scripts will actually reduce the amount of time Assyrians spend writing in Assyrian. We are stateless and scattered, we need to keep our language alive and the Latin script is the most effective way to do that because it is the most convenient way to do that and people don't just lean towards convenience, their addicted to it.

Let's take this forum as an example. Guess how many users here can hold a conversation in Assyrian - I'm guessing 60-80%. Now guess how many of them know how to read and write in our any of our traditional scripts; now guess how many of those have access, or are bothered, to install the script on their computer, maybe buy an Assyrian-Latinate keybaord etc. ..Sticking to our traditional script will certainly reduce the amount that Assyrian is communicated through writing.

Now imagine we used the Latin script to express ourselves; of that 60-80%, we might actually get half to regularly speak to each other in Assyrian online. This is not to devalue or forsake our Script, it is to keep our language alive. Try having a written conversation here, with our users, in Surit - it won't happen except among a very small group of individuals. That's preventing us from using our language and, if you don't use it, you lose it.


No the script is not necessary, we have places like Beth Mardutho keeping the language alive but the only way to keep it alive is FOR PEOPLE TO SPEAK IT. What difference does it make to have different alphabet if nobody is speaking the language?

Secondly, you do know there's Syriac keyboards now for iPhone right? You can literally message people IN SURETH.

We have typing fonts and keyboard layout FOR SURETH, All this hard work was done by George Kiraz to help preserve the language and you ghasheemeh want to use Latin?

how about MY CHART that I spent weeks working on? Apparently I've been wasting my time, I should've been working on a Latin-Sureth chart instead...

http://assyrianic.deviantart.com/art/Syriac-Aramaic-Diagram-Chart-479930235


We have sooo many resources in teaching and reading the alphabet. It is not my fault or problem lazy parents don't teach their kids the alphabet. Most parents don't even know the alphabet themselves but they still don't even take the time to make sure their kids learn it...

You guys are putting your focus on the wrong area.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2017, 08:33:29 PM »
that's your fault then.
And it's your fault that you have poor Assyrian grammar and vocab skills, unlike many Assyrians in here. How come I don't get so worked up about it? Instead of showing off about your mighty Syriac reading skills, why not study grammar and learn how to friggin' speak Sureth first? At least I speak it fluently. Just being able to read it won't get you anywhere. If you want to be a spokesperson or an activist for us, they wouldn't sign you up, despite the fact that you can read it.

Speech matters the most.

Quote
Latin is not very easy, the only reason you and me know is because we were forced to learn it in the West...
Huh? How were we forced? You're speaking as if we're living in totalitarian societies.

Quote
If the West was using Klingon, you'd be asking to implement Klingon...
False equivalence.

Quote
Secondly, why Latin and why not Greek? Why not Hebrew? Why not Arabic?
Slippery slope much? Last time I checked most Assyrians are not writing in Greek and Hebrew. Some do write Syriac in Arabic. I thought you'd know that. Why? Because they live in Arab countries and for them it will be convenient. Just the same way for us in the west, Latin would be convenient. Why are you finding it so hard to understand this?

Quote
We're not switching alphabets, end of discussion.
Yet again you fail to grasp that I'm not opting for a "switch". -_-

Whether you like it or not, Assyrians in Facebook use either Latin or Arabic to communicate with each other. Deal with it.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2017, 08:52:17 PM »
OR the lazy parents can make sure their kids learn the alphabets then we wouldn't be at this issue...

Again, the only reason Neon wants Latin is because that's the first alphabet he learned... If his parents taught him to read syriac while school taught him latin, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Language is easy when you're a kid, our lazy parents do not take advantage of such precious time to teach us the alphabet.

Carlo has already explained the benefits of being bilingual, especially speaking Sureth and English.
I'm pretty sure the benefits are also there with knowing both the Latin and Syriac alphabets...

Also, Neon doesn't know this but I know how to read Hebrew. I learned it (pretty fast) so I could read the Aramaic words in Wiktionary which are all written in Hebrew alphabet.

At our grown age, the only way to improve is to practice... Hopefully when we have kids unlike Neon, we'll remember to teach them the language and the alphabet...
Why didn't YOUR parents taught you how to speak Assyrian? How come you didn't teach YOURSELF the language? You can hardly carry a decent Assyrian conversation. Instead of forcing yourself to learn Hebrew (which was totally redundant, IMO), you could've taken Assyrian classes and learn how to speak it. Honestly, you are as "bad" as me, in a way. You chose to learn the Syriac script, but not much the language. And I chose to be fluent in Syriac tongue rather than the script. So let's not get on high horses here.

What Sharukinu said was right. The language should be the pivotal priority. Not the script. What matters is that we should be able to speak the language first and keep it "afloat", even if its boat is Latin. But you always happen to put the script first. Why? For your convenience I guess - You are knowledgeable of the script, so therefore others should be obliged to learn it, even they lack knowledge of the language. Yeah, like as if that will totally preserve our language.

Being fluent in a script and horrible at speaking the language is like a beautiful looking cake having no sugar or sweetness.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2017, 11:06:48 PM »
Why didn't YOUR parents taught you how to speak Assyrian? How come you didn't teach YOURSELF the language? You can hardly carry a decent Assyrian conversation. Instead of forcing yourself to learn Hebrew (which was totally redundant, IMO), you could've taken Assyrian classes and learn how to speak it. Honestly, you are as "bad" as me, in a way. You chose to learn the Syriac script, but not much the language. And I chose to be fluent in Syriac tongue rather than the script. So let's not get on high horses here.

What Sharukinu said was right. The language should be the pivotal priority. Not the script. What matters is that we should be able to speak the language first and keep it "afloat", even if its boat is Latin. But you always happen to put the script first. Why? For your convenience I guess - You are knowledgeable of the script, so therefore others should be obliged to learn it, even they lack knowledge of the language. Yeah, like as if that will totally preserve our language.

Being fluent in a script and horrible at speaking the language is like a beautiful looking cake having no sugar or sweetness.

My parents did teach me how to speak Sureth, that's what we mostly speak at home; even now I still speak sureth with my parents.

I even go as far as to use my dictionary to converse about more complex topics.

So no, I'm not "as bad as you". My parents taught me the language (both spoke to me as a baby in sureth) and all I simply did was learn the alphabet off wikipedia lol.

Also, I know something you might find interesting Neon.

I have a relative who became a qasha in the church of the east; you should know that he didn't know how to read a lick of sureth AT ALL.
After he became a qasha, they taught him how to read quickly. He could read sureth very fast and you should know that he didn't learn until his late 30s.

I'm not saying or implying anything bad but I found it interesting how he learned relatively quickly and he's able to read it fast enough that you'd think he learned it since high school or something.

Maybe our churches having a specific teaching technique that helps us learn to read and write the alphabet quickly? That's definitely something to inquire about.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 10:56:13 PM »
My parents did teach me how to speak Sureth, that's what we mostly speak at home; even now I still speak sureth with my parents.

I even go as far as to use my dictionary to converse about more complex topics.

So no, I'm not "as bad as you". My parents taught me the language (both spoke to me as a baby in sureth) and all I simply did was learn the alphabet off wikipedia lol.

Also, I know something you might find interesting Neon.

I have a relative who became a qasha in the church of the east; you should know that he didn't know how to read a lick of sureth AT ALL.
After he became a qasha, they taught him how to read quickly. He could read sureth very fast and you should know that he didn't learn until his late 30s.

I'm not saying or implying anything bad but I found it interesting how he learned relatively quickly and he's able to read it fast enough that you'd think he learned it since high school or something.

Maybe our churches having a specific teaching technique that helps us learn to read and write the alphabet quickly? That's definitely something to inquire about.
I thought you naturally speak in broken Assyrian? I could swear that you mentioned this a few years ago. Good for you for learning the alphabet. Nobody say that this a bad thing. But all I can say is that you're no better than me. At least I can speak Assyrian fluently. I'm trying hard to learn more of its vocab. And that's what I'm confusing on the most, as instead of the script - which won't really get me anywhere. Speaking will save the language, not writing it, IMO.

Of course, anyone can learn a script easily. I didn't say that it's completely impossible. I can read Madnhaya rather modestly, but it takes time to complete a sentence. Will I improve if I practice more? Of course. But as I said, I'm focusing on the vocab more (thanks to your Syriac dictionary website). Again, what matters is being knowledgeable in how I speak, not how I write. And the Latin script makes it more convenient to learn the language. If was in Russia, I'd probably be using Cyrillic to read Assyrian.

Our churches should've just stick with one Syriac writing system. The fact that we have two of them (not counting Serto, as it isn't used in our own church) makes it more daunting for us to learn it quickly. If say, our church was stuck with Madnkhaya (the simplest one, IMO), maybe I would've been a natural by now. And not just the church, if every Assyrian writing was written in one script, I'm sure the orthography would've been much tamer for us to get the hang of it. I mean, come one, computers have Estrangelo integrated in them and yet in some other areas (like liturgy booklets) we have Madnkhaya. How is that right?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2017, 01:21:26 AM »
I thought you naturally speak in broken Assyrian? I could swear that you mentioned this a few years ago. Good for you for learning the alphabet. Nobody say that this a bad thing. But all I can say is that you're no better than me. At least I can speak Assyrian fluently. I'm trying hard to learn more of its vocab. And that's what I'm confusing on the most, as instead of the script - which won't really get me anywhere. Speaking will save the language, not writing it, IMO.

Of course, anyone can learn a script easily. I didn't say that it's completely impossible. I can read Madnhaya rather modestly, but it takes time to complete a sentence. Will I improve if I practice more? Of course. But as I said, I'm focusing on the vocab more (thanks to your Syriac dictionary website). Again, what matters is being knowledgeable in how I speak, not how I write. And the Latin script makes it more convenient to learn the language. If was in Russia, I'd probably be using Cyrillic to read Assyrian.

Our churches should've just stick with one Syriac writing system. The fact that we have two of them (not counting Serto, as it isn't used in our own church) makes it more daunting for us to learn it quickly. If say, our church was stuck with Madnkhaya (the simplest one, IMO), maybe I would've been a natural by now. And not just the church, if every Assyrian writing was written in one script, I'm sure the orthography would've been much tamer for us to get the hang of it. I mean, come one, computers have Estrangelo integrated in them and yet in some other areas (like liturgy booklets) we have Madnkhaya. How is that right?

What I was thinking concerning the Syriac standard was to put ALL our different alphabets into specific uses.

I was thinking that we could use SerTa/SerTo as our official handwriting format (writing with pencil/pen). MadnHaya can be the internet and typing format, and Estrangelo can be our legal/government/public usage format. Sounds pretty good to me.

I thought all the churches used Estrangelo as the standard?
If not, The only way for our churches to stick to one writing system would be to unite them.

no, I can speak Assyrian more or less fluently but my written Assyrian is broken lol.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2017, 01:55:37 AM »
What I was thinking concerning the Syriac standard was to put ALL our different alphabets into specific uses.

I was thinking that we could use SerTa/SerTo as our official handwriting format (writing with pencil/pen). MadnHaya can be the internet and typing format, and Estrangelo can be our legal/government/public usage format. Sounds pretty good to me.

I thought all the churches used Estrangelo as the standard?
If not, The only way for our churches to stick to one writing system would be to unite them.

no, I can speak Assyrian more or less fluently but my written Assyrian is broken lol.
Well, we could've done Serto from the get-go. Now it's too late. Also, it's not the simplest Assyrian form. At least, most Assyrians are not accustomed to it. The many of us find Madnkhaya the most intelligible and Estrangela comes next.

Our church has liturgical books written in Madnhkhaya form. They're aimed for amateurs or those with basic reading skills I guess. Priests and deacons tend to have Estrangela-scripted books in their hands.

So you speak Assyrian with your parents without frequently using English words? "Mama, masen azen kis my cousin's house please?" - That's not good enough. Lol.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2017, 03:12:20 AM »
Well, we could've done Serto from the get-go. Now it's too late. Also, it's not the simplest Assyrian form. At least, most Assyrians are not accustomed to it. The many of us find Madnkhaya the most intelligible and Estrangela comes next.

Our church has liturgical books written in Madnhkhaya form. They're aimed for amateurs or those with basic reading skills I guess. Priests and deacons tend to have Estrangela-scripted books in their hands.

So you speak Assyrian with your parents without frequently using English words? "Mama, masen azen kis my cousin's house please?" - That's not good enough. Lol.

thing is, SerTo really looks like it'd be easy on handwriting. MadnHaya looks good on programming and typing in general so it can be used for academic papers, etc.

I would more probably say, "mum, maSSen azen kis bet d'cuzzeenee pakhalta?"

Here's syriac version -> ܡܘܡ, ܡܨܝܢ ܐܙܠ݇ܝܢ ܟܝܤ ܒܝܬ ܕܟܙܝܢܝܗ ܦܚܠܬܐ?

Dictinary says "cousin" is "dadha" or ܕܕ݂ܐ.  dadhta for female cousins of course.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2017, 05:10:55 AM »
thing is, SerTo really looks like it'd be easy on handwriting. MadnHaya looks good on programming and typing in general so it can be used for academic papers, etc.

I would more probably say, "mum, maSSen azen kis bet d'cuzzeenee pakhalta?"

Here's syriac version -> ܡܘܡ, ܡܨܝܢ ܐܙܠ݇ܝܢ ܟܝܤ ܒܝܬ ܕܟܙܝܢܝܗ ܦܚܠܬܐ?

Dictinary says "cousin" is "dadha" or ܕܕ݂ܐ.  dadhta for female cousins of course.
"Pakhalta" is "I'm sorry". We say "basmalokh/lakh" for please.

Saying "masen azen kis [someone] pakhalta" is grammatically incorrect. You don't say "pakhalta" for please (at least in modern Assyrian). Unless you want to interrupt them (say they're busy talking( you can say "pakhalta, masen azen kis [someone]".
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2017, 10:02:53 AM »
"Pakhalta" is "I'm sorry". We say "basmalokh/lakh" for please.

Saying "masen azen kis [someone] pakhalta" is grammatically incorrect. You don't say "pakhalta" for please (at least in modern Assyrian). Unless you want to interrupt them (say they're busy talking( you can say "pakhalta, masen azen kis [someone]".
so saying sorry/excuse me throws a whole wrench into the grammar? Still not adopting latin though.

Offline Mr. Tambourine Man

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 202
  • Gender: Male
  • www.AssyrianVoice.net
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2017, 10:06:41 AM »
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.
''An anthropologist squeezed my arm, just for the satisfaction of having touched the flesh and blood of an Assyrian.'' - Ivan Kakovitch

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2017, 10:56:29 AM »
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.

If that's the case, I've already done that though. My Syriac diagram chart uses Latin letters to explain the sound each letter makes.

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2017, 08:10:54 PM »
so saying sorry/excuse me throws a whole wrench into the grammar? Still not adopting latin though.
What the hell does "sorry/excuse me" have to do with not wanting the Latin alphabet? Instead of bringing up the Latin excuse (which had nothing to do with what we were just talking about Lmao), just admit that you made a mistake with these words. Look, you need more grammatical practice. It seems, you probably just know more Syriac words than the average guy (thanks to your dictionary), but you can't put them properly in a sentence.

And if you're so against the Latin script, why did you incorporate Latin letters into that chart of yours?
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2017, 08:14:43 PM »
Aramaic shouldn't be ditched in terms of writing and reading but for the sake of propagating the language, I think adopting Latin script would be prudent. Additionally, it's not like by doing so we automatically forfeit the learning of our native script, but just bearing in mind how children born in the diaspora are opting to learn the language of the land, it makes it hard for even our speech to proliferate.

It's easier this way and a formal and official means of writing in this script should be legitimised and utilised, so that we can push our language - the learning of our native script should not be neglected though.
I agree with this. And that was my point. I do not want the Syriac script to be "replaced". I just want Latin, since it's so convenient and widely used, to be an alternative for us to communicate with each other. It can keep the language alive.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

  • Special Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5751
  • Gender: Male
    • Zurnaya's Youtube
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2017, 02:29:45 AM »
you're so against the Latin script, why did you incorporate Latin letters into that chart of yours?
Not against Latin, I'm against using it to write our alphabet.
secondly, I put it in the chart to explain what sound each letter makes/uses.

Which reminds me to ask, have you made a large print of my chart yet to hang up on your wall? :)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 02:30:24 AM by mrzurnaci »

Offline Neon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4413
  • Gender: Male
  • Try and fail, but never fail to try.
Re: Should we implement the Latin alphabet for Assyrian?
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2017, 04:07:19 AM »
Not against Latin, I'm against using it to write our alphabet.
secondly, I put it in the chart to explain what sound each letter makes/uses.

Which reminds me to ask, have you made a large print of my chart yet to hang up on your wall? :)
Ah, so you can see that you'll still (inadvertently) rely on the English alphabet, regardless of what you think of it. ;)

I have your diagram saved in my hard drive. I've even added it in some Wiki articles regarding Assyrian and Syriac. As you can see, I was never really against the Syriac script.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:11:18 AM by Neon »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

 

OLD ASSYRIAN ALPHABET

Started by UneekBoard Chit Chat

Replies: 1
Views: 370
Last post September 30, 2007, 06:02:00 AM
by Anitaaaaaaaaaa
Roots of Latin & Latin influenced languages = Assyrian ?

Started by ZawoyoBoard Culture & History

Replies: 36
Views: 2259
Last post May 19, 2017, 01:01:00 PM
by Sharukinu
Assyrian Alphabet

Started by UnityBoard Assyrian Language Center

Replies: 26
Views: 3145
Last post May 01, 2017, 08:16:50 PM
by Neon
Wanted: Assyrian Alphabet Puzzle

Started by ElaineBoard Assyrian Language Center

Replies: 6
Views: 2068
Last post October 10, 2013, 01:36:27 PM
by Carlo
A Great Way to Learn the Assyrian Alphabet

Started by ASHOORBoard Assyrian Language Center

Replies: 2
Views: 2186
Last post April 13, 2017, 03:51:21 AM
by Neon