Author Topic: Syriac language  (Read 8657 times)

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Offline Neta1991

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Syriac language
« on: January 28, 2015, 05:20:46 AM »
Which language do you prefer the most? Serto or Nestorian or Madenhoyo or Estrangelo? is Nestorian and Madenhoyo the same language? which Syriac language is still spoken today? of all the Syriac languages that still exists? l know that one Syriac language is only spoken by one guy or women and when he or she dies then it will be extinct..... that language l think is Mlahsô language.... there is something weird that l noticed on wikipedia... turyoyo is according to wikipedia a Modern Western Syriac Aramaic and close to the Mlahsô language and Modern Eastern Syriac Aramaic is including assyrian aramaic language..... l thought turoyo (western aramaic) also was eastern aramaic....
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:31:18 AM by Neta1991 »



Offline Kebabsås

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 09:09:53 AM »
Which language do you prefer the most? Serto or Nestorian or Madenhoyo or Estrangelo? is Nestorian and Madenhoyo the same language? which Syriac language is still spoken today? of all the Syriac languages that still exists? l know that one Syriac language is only spoken by one guy or women and when he or she dies then it will be extinct..... that language l think is Mlahsô language.... there is something weird that l noticed on wikipedia... turyoyo is according to wikipedia a Modern Western Syriac Aramaic and close to the Mlahsô language and Modern Eastern Syriac Aramaic is including assyrian aramaic language..... l thought turoyo (western aramaic) also was eastern aramaic....

what's Madenhoyo?
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Offline Neta1991

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 09:17:03 AM »
what's Madenhoyo?

l am not really sure but if you can read madenhoyo on this picture then if you also can read nestorian on the first picture l posted then they must be the same language and dialect.....

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 09:17:03 AM »

Offline Kebabsås

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 09:57:13 AM »
l am not really sure but if you can read madenhoyo on this picture then if you also can read nestorian on the first picture l posted then they must be the same language and dialect.....
i can't read or write in assyrian :baby:
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Offline Neta1991

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 10:46:28 AM »
i can't read or write in assyrian :baby:

what are you exactly east assyrian or west assyrian?

Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 12:11:08 PM »
what's Madenhoyo?
Madenkhaya for eastern Assyrians  and Madenhoyo for wester Assyrians, Madenhoyo or madenkhaya means eastern and madenkha or madenho means east
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 01:49:06 PM »
doesn't matter, it's all the same language (Syriac)

Interestingly, Madkhaya/Madenhoyo means "Easterner" while SerTo/SerTa means "simplified". This is true considering Suryoyo style is just a simplified version of the overall Syriac alphabet.

Offline Neta1991

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 03:22:37 PM »
doesn't matter, it's all the same language (Syriac)

Interestingly, Madkhaya/Madenhoyo means "Easterner" while SerTo/SerTa means "simplified". This is true considering Suryoyo style is just a simplified version of the overall Syriac alphabet.

Well are nestorian and Madenhoyo the same language? And why are Turoyo close to mlahso language which is Western Aramaic all according wikipedia?

Offline Shahin

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 03:47:32 PM »
Turoyo is part of Eastern Aramaic . And among the Eastern Aramaic it's classified as West or Central Aramaic. (Wikipedia, see on the right language family): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoyo_language

For those interested, you can listen to:
-Neo Western Aramaic (Ma'aloula):
http://www.semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/arnold_baxca/arnoldbaxca10.mp3


-Mlahsô dialect, now extinct due to the Seyfo, is the most related, close one to Classical Syriac (Kthobonoyo / Suryoyo Urhoyo / Leshana sepraya).
Here is a record of it, it's the Story of Ahiqar :
ܬܫܥܝܬܐ ܕܐܚܝܩܪ/The story of Ahiqar


Also, here is a list of others records, thanks to professor Otto Jastrow :
Mlahsô records

ܚܢܢ ܟܠܢ ܣܘܪܝܝܐ ܡܢ ܐܫܘܪ
We are all Assyrians !

Offline Kebabsås

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 06:32:47 PM »
what are you exactly east assyrian or west assyrian?
east


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Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 03:12:34 AM »
Turoyo is part of Eastern Aramaic . And among the Eastern Aramaic it's classified as West or Central Aramaic. (Wikipedia, see on the right language family): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoyo_language

For those interested, you can listen to:
-Neo Western Aramaic (Ma'aloula): http://www.semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/arnold_baxca/arnoldbaxca10.mp3

-Mlahsô dialect, now extinct due to the Seyfo, is the most related, close one to Classical Syriac (Kthobonoyo / Suryoyo Urhoyo / Leshana sepraya).
Here is a record of it, it's the Story of Ahiqar :
ܬܫܥܝܬܐ ܕܐܚܝܩܪ/The story of Ahiqar

Also, here is a list of others records, thanks to professor Otto Jastrow :
Mlahsô records
lol I understand about 40-60% of what he said with my turoyo dialect, damn it sounds like some mix between east and turoyo
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 09:59:33 AM »
lol I understand about 40-60% of what he said with my turoyo dialect, damn it sounds like some mix between east and turoyo

Which part? The story of Akhiqar or the Western Neo-Aramaic which I only understand 2% of.

Offline Neta1991

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 02:32:03 AM »
Turoyo is part of Eastern Aramaic . And among the Eastern Aramaic it's classified as West or Central Aramaic. (Wikipedia, see on the right language family): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoyo_language

For those interested, you can listen to:
-Neo Western Aramaic (Ma'aloula): http://www.semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/arnold_baxca/arnoldbaxca10.mp3

-Mlahsô dialect, now extinct due to the Seyfo, is the most related, close one to Classical Syriac (Kthobonoyo / Suryoyo Urhoyo / Leshana sepraya).
Here is a record of it, it's the Story of Ahiqar :
ܬܫܥܝܬܐ ܕܐܚܝܩܪ/The story of Ahiqar

Also, here is a list of others records, thanks to professor Otto Jastrow :
Mlahsô records


actually it got extinct with the death of Ibrahim Ḥanna in 1998....

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 03:21:04 AM »
actually it got extinct with the death of Ibrahim Ḥanna in 1998....

He means that Seyfo contributed greatly to its eventual extinction...

Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 03:48:55 AM »
Which part? The story of Akhiqar or the Western Neo-Aramaic which I only understand 2% of.
Mhlasho , the story of Ahiqar , how much did you understand what he said when he spoke on Mlhasoyo?
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 06:29:37 AM »
Mhlasho , the story of Ahiqar , how much did you understand what he said when he spoke on Mlhasoyo?

I didn't listen to it cuz I have the entire story in my computer :3

Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 07:29:46 AM »
I didn't listen to it cuz I have the entire story in my computer :3
Well I wanna know how much you understand , I understood like 60% of what he says, maybe that's because he was old
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2015, 08:32:23 AM »
Well I wanna know how much you understand , I understood like 60% of what he says, maybe that's because he was old

Well, you're not gonna understand EVERYTHING unless you're a freakin' Vocabulary expert on Syriac...

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 01:26:43 AM »
Turoyo is part of Eastern Aramaic . And among the Eastern Aramaic it's classified as West or Central Aramaic. (Wikipedia, see on the right language family): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoyo_language

For those interested, you can listen to:
-Neo Western Aramaic (Ma'aloula): http://www.semarch.uni-hd.de/mp3/arnold_baxca/arnoldbaxca10.mp3

-Mlahsô dialect, now extinct due to the Seyfo, is the most related, close one to Classical Syriac (Kthobonoyo / Suryoyo Urhoyo / Leshana sepraya).
Here is a record of it, it's the Story of Ahiqar :
ܬܫܥܝܬܐ ܕܐܚܝܩܪ/The story of Ahiqar

Also, here is a list of others records, thanks to professor Otto Jastrow :
Mlahsô records

I only understand 5-10% of the first one (and I'm a fluent Assyrian speaker). The second one, Mlahso is 99% unintelligible.

They sound very similar to Chaldeans with the guttural H and A sounds. I like the fact how standard Assyrian has dropped the throaty sounds of A and H (only priests speak that way). It sounds Arabic when they enunciate it anyway - So good riddance.

Say, have you got recordings of Bohtan Neo-Aramaic? How much do they sound Assyrian?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 01:31:27 AM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2015, 09:50:50 AM »
I only understand 5-10% of the first one (and I'm a fluent Assyrian speaker). The second one, Mlahso is 99% unintelligible.

They sound very similar to Chaldeans with the guttural H and A sounds. I like the fact how standard Assyrian has dropped the throaty sounds of A and H (only priests speak that way). It sounds Arabic when they enunciate it anyway - So good riddance.

Say, have you got recordings of Bohtan Neo-Aramaic? How much do they sound Assyrian?

That's bad though, every letter in Sureth has it's own sounds for a good reason...

changing sounds to sound like other letters will cause definite confusion...

How the hell does it sound Arabic when Syriac existed longer than Arabic? Secondly, Arabic has extra consonants that Syriac does not have...

thirdly, Syriac (+ Hebrew) is a Semitic language just like Arabic. The fact that it sounds similar to Arabic makes sense because there's a good reason that Syriac, Hebrew, and Arabic are all in one language family...

Secondly, Mlahso is unintelligible to you because you don't have a good Syriac dictionary :3

Offline Assyrian Nationalist

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 04:41:51 PM »
This should be pinned.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 10:11:29 PM »
That's bad though, every letter in Sureth has it's own sounds for a good reason...

changing sounds to sound like other letters will cause definite confusion...

How the hell does it sound Arabic when Syriac existed longer than Arabic? Secondly, Arabic has extra consonants that Syriac does not have...

thirdly, Syriac (+ Hebrew) is a Semitic language just like Arabic. The fact that it sounds similar to Arabic makes sense because there's a good reason that Syriac, Hebrew, and Arabic are all in one language family...

Secondly, Mlahso is unintelligible to you because you don't have a good Syriac dictionary :3
No dude, Mlahso is unintelligible to me because no one gives a **** about it. I don't need a Syriac dictionary to learn an irrelevant language.

You said it yourself, Arabic, Assyrian and Hebrew are Semitic, so they'll soundalike. But guess what, some variations will sound MORE alike than the other. Listen to the hard, guttural E and A sounds. Arabs use those.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 10:15:24 PM »
Listen to the hard, guttural E and A sounds. Arabs use those.

over 400 years ago, that's how Assyrians talked until the destruction of our schools and institutions, by Muslims, degraded Syriac into many little village-ghetto dialects...

Thankfully, Syriac has been extensively documented so we can actually go back to our roots and reform Syriac back to its former glory.

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2015, 11:52:42 PM »
over 400 years ago, that's how Assyrians talked until the destruction of our schools and institutions, by Muslims, degraded Syriac into many little village-ghetto dialects...

Thankfully, Syriac has been extensively documented so we can actually go back to our roots and reform Syriac back to its former glory.
You can't stop dialects from evolving. We naturally sound the way we do now. It's not like we purposefully invented the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic language. We are as Aramaic as all the other Aramaic languages near us. We are speaking Assyrian in its full glory. Syriac would've also been a 'bastardized' language of another mother language in its days. So, as such, there are no languages that are "original" and "untouched"...

Don't know why you have to be very technical. And if you want to be extremely technically, we should speaking an Akkadian language.

By your logic, should we go back to Old English? 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 12:06:21 AM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2015, 11:31:18 AM »
You can't stop dialects from evolving. We naturally sound the way we do now. It's not like we purposefully invented the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic language. We are as Aramaic as all the other Aramaic languages near us. We are speaking Assyrian in its full glory. Syriac would've also been a 'bastardized' language of another mother language in its days. So, as such, there are no languages that are "original" and "untouched"...

Don't know why you have to be very technical. And if you want to be extremely technically, we should speaking an Akkadian language.

By your logic, should we go back to Old English? 


Bringing up old english? lmao, my MOM made the same excuse/argument.

English is a clusterf**k of other languages and roots...

Syriac is not. There's a specific reason why ALL Syriac letters have their own, distinct sounds...

Maybe we don't have to go back to Classical Syriac but the idea is to revive our old sounds.

ܚ - There's a good reason Kheth sounds like the "Arabic-style" as you put it, Guttural H.

In Sureth, we modify Kaph to become the Kha sound. We seriously do not need two "kha" sounds.

Same thing with ܒ going from Veth to Weth. Why do we need another W sound when we have Waw?

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? The idea is to revive aspects of the Syriac language that shouldn't have died out.

Are you seriously telling me that Syriac would've still formed into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic whether or not the Muslims destroyed our education institutions?

I highly doubt Syriac would've become like this and that's what I want to correct.

Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2015, 04:13:18 PM »
I don't know how it is for east Assyrians but from what I understood of what you said Zurnaci, it looks like the west assyrians got the sound of the alphabet actually right, Kaph is koph for west assyrians just like you said how it is suppose to be. How come they changed the sound for the letters for you east Assyrians?
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2015, 05:17:58 PM »
I don't know how it is for east Assyrians but from what I understood of what you said Zurnaci, it looks like the west assyrians got the sound of the alphabet actually right, Kaph is koph for west assyrians just like you said how it is suppose to be. How come they changed the sound for the letters for you east Assyrians?

Actually, no one has it correct.

Western dialect has it nearly perfect to Classical/Educational Syriac. The only part that ruins it is by replacing Zqapa "ah" with "oh"

Another part that ruins it is that Peh is ALWAYS used as Feh... Feh is supposed to be when Peh has to be changed according to grammar, not permanently changed as Feh...


Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2015, 05:52:25 PM »
You can't stop dialects from evolving. We naturally sound the way we do now. It's not like we purposefully invented the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic language. We are as Aramaic as all the other Aramaic languages near us. We are speaking Assyrian in its full glory. Syriac would've also been a 'bastardized' language of another mother language in its days. So, as such, there are no languages that are "original" and "untouched"...

Don't know why you have to be very technical. And if you want to be extremely technically, we should speaking an Akkadian language.

By your logic, should we go back to Old English?

I agree with this. Honestly, I don't want our language to change back to a pseudo-Arabic sounding language. It has softened as a result of our language just evolving naturally. Like w->v in my dialect is not a result of some foreign influence. Zurnaci, you are over thinking what needs to happen. One dialect just needs to be chosen as a standard, like what happened with Italian. Everyone does not need to get rid of their dialects.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2015, 05:56:50 PM »
I agree with this. Honestly, I don't want our language to change back to a pseudo-Arabic sounding language. It has softened as a result of our language just evolving naturally. Like w->v in my dialect is not a result of some foreign influence. Zurnaci, you are over thinking what needs to happen. One dialect just needs to be chosen as a standard, like what happened with Italian. Everyone does not need to get rid of their dialects.

First off, our language was never pseudo-Arabic...

Arabic doesn't have V, P, G, or certain other sounds...

The point is that our language didn't evolve, it deteriorated...

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2015, 06:10:38 PM »
First off, our language was never pseudo-Arabic...

Arabic doesn't have V, P, G, or certain other sounds...

The point is that our language didn't evolve, it deteriorated...

Some dialects sound more like Arabic than others. I don't care about the technicalities of them sounding like Syriac as opposed to the reverse.

And some really do have Arabic influence. We'll use Palestinian as an example. I use "Palestinaye." Other Assyrians use "Filisteenaye or "Filistine." That is because of Arabic. We don't really use "ayn" or that breathy "h" sound either, that I know is present in some of our other dialects.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2015, 06:21:57 PM »
Some dialects sound more like Arabic than others. I don't care about the technicalities of them sounding like Syriac as opposed to the reverse.

And some really do have Arabic influence. We'll use Palestinian as an example. I use "Palestinaye." Other Assyrians use "Filisteenaye or "Filistine." That is because of Arabic. We don't really use "ayn" or that breathy "h" sound either, that I know is present in some of our other dialects.

If it exists in our dialects, how is it pseudo-Arabic then?

Also, what does it matter if we say Palestine or Falestine? Palestine originates from Hebrew "plashet" "Land of the Phillistines"...

Aramaic itself has a verb called "Plash" meaning "to break through, invade".

It's obvious that Arabic morphed the P to F because they're herpaderps but it makes no significant difference...

We don't have much use of Ayn or Guttural H because our lack of proper language education, thanks to "the religion of peace", deteriorated the language into an uneducated ghetto dialect...

How many times do I have to explain that?

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2015, 06:29:07 PM »
If it exists in our dialects, how is it pseudo-Arabic then?

Also, what does it matter if we say Palestine or Falestine? Palestine originates from Hebrew "plashet" "Land of the Phillistines"...

Aramaic itself has a verb called "Plash" meaning "to break through, invade".

It's obvious that Arabic morphed the P to F because they're herpaderps but it makes no significant difference...

We don't have much use of Ayn or Guttural H because our lack of proper language education, thanks to "the religion of peace", deteriorated the language into an uneducated ghetto dialect...

How many times do I have to explain that?

Because those sounds are usually a result of recent influence. Most Assyrians don't use them, but I don't like Arabic influence on our language, because it might make some Assyrians have a superficial connection to these people.

It's not ghetto. It's our language. We don't need to revive classical Syriac unless it's just used as Standard Assyrian. Our dialects don't need to go extinct.

Those sounds are ugly. We don't need them.

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2015, 06:39:01 PM »
Because those sounds are usually a result of recent influence. Most Assyrians don't use them, but I don't like Arabic influence on our language, because it might make some Assyrians have a superficial connection to these people.

It's not ghetto. It's our language. We don't need to revive classical Syriac unless it's just used as Standard Assyrian. Our dialects don't need to go extinct.

Those sounds are ugly. We don't need them.

Are you seriously joking me?

Syriac existed before Arabic and Syriac always had 'Ayn and the guttural H sound since its inception...

What about the V sound beth originally had? Why doesn't that exist either?

We're not reviving classical Syriac, we're correcting wrongs and our ghetto village dialects all have to go...

Offline Asshur

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2015, 06:40:41 PM »
Because those sounds are usually a result of recent influence. Most Assyrians don't use them, but I don't like Arabic influence on our language, because it might make some Assyrians have a superficial connection to these people.

It's not ghetto. It's our language. We don't need to revive classical Syriac unless it's just used as Standard Assyrian. Our dialects don't need to go extinct.

Those sounds are ugly. We don't need them.
our dialects should just die out, classic syriac should be revived and used as standard or not, our people don't know words such as confront,divine,argument etc etc etc , we can't even speak our own language without lending words from disgusting languages.

I once asked my swedish friend which language sounds best, I spoke little classic syriac then our normal dialect, he replied saying that the first one sounded so cool like if it would be used for only nobles men, while he said that the other one souneded like just gibberish. The point is, why speak a disgusting ghetto dialect of an amazing rich language?
I am Ashurbanipal, the great king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of Assyria, king of the four quarters of the world; offspring of the loins of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, viceroy of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad; grandson of Sennacherib, king of the universe, king of Assyria.

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2015, 07:56:10 PM »
Are you seriously joking me?

Syriac existed before Arabic and Syriac always had 'Ayn and the guttural H sound since its inception...

What about the V sound beth originally had? Why doesn't that exist either?

We're not reviving classical Syriac, we're correcting wrongs and our ghetto village dialects all have to go...

Nope. Language commonalities can actually make people feel closer, just like any other type of category that humans follow. Although, much less so. The farther away we are from all of our neighboring languages, the better. Even when Turkey was founded, Ataturk removed thousands of loan words from Arabic and Farsi, going as far to change the alphabet to distance Turks from others. We obviously don't need to be that extreme, given we're not Muslims, but we still need to try a bit, considering that some Assyrians still have loyalty to Iraq and Syria, or sympathize with them.

They're not "ghetto." Classical Syriac(or any random dialect or Akkadian) can become "Standard Assyrian" for all I care, but I still stand by the lack of need for our dialects to be forcefully killed. Just follow the Italian model, and everything should work out correctly.

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2015, 08:12:55 PM »
our dialects should just die out, classic syriac should be revived and used as standard or not, our people don't know words such as confront,divine,argument etc etc etc , we can't even speak our own language without lending words from disgusting languages.

I once asked my swedish friend which language sounds best, I spoke little classic syriac then our normal dialect, he replied saying that the first one sounded so cool like if it would be used for only nobles men, while he said that the other one souneded like just gibberish. The point is, why speak a disgusting ghetto dialect of an amazing rich language?

Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.

So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both. ;)

Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2015, 08:58:49 PM »
Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.

So far, Akkadian sounds more "rich" than our neo-dialects, but the sounds cannot be reproduced correctly, given that the language has been dead for such a long time. It would be similar to the revival of Hebrew, in that regard. Although, they still used it in religious texts, while we didn't even retain that. Sumerian sounds even nicer than both. ;)

How are they hideous to the ears? Our ancestors used both those sounds for thousands of years until Syriac deteriorated from the 1500s onward...

Classical Syriac sounds just like Western Syriac but with some more sounds like Peh and Veth.

Hideous to the ears but eastern dialects have no problem using J, Cheh, and ZH (s in Treasure) sounds? J and Cheh in Aramaic sound hideous to my ears.

Not just that but doesn't having J and ZH in Syriac actually make it closer to Arabic?

'ayn and "HH" are part of the heritage that are an integral part of the language. Those two sounds existed in Syriac before Arabic even existed.

so no, Classical Syriac isn't closer to Arabic as even Hebrew had Ayn and HH in their language before they butchered it with German...

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2015, 11:51:34 PM »
How are they hideous to the ears? Our ancestors used both those sounds for thousands of years until Syriac deteriorated from the 1500s onward...
That doesn't suddenly make them not hideous. Arabs and Dutchmen can say the same thing about speaking their languages being thousands of years old, but they both sound gross.

Quote from:
Classical Syriac sounds just like Western Syriac but with some more sounds like Peh and Veth.
A video would be nice. ;)

Quote from:
Hideous to the ears but eastern dialects have no problem using J, Cheh, and ZH (s in Treasure) sounds? J and Cheh in Aramaic sound hideous to my ears.
Zh sounds nice. It makes words flow better like treasure, de jure, and Urmignaye.
Ch can get annoying. Words can always go through the change of ch->sh, like in chandelier. However, it might make our language sound too feminine. I'm not one of those Assyrians that changes kelba/chelba(dog), kayka/chaycha(cake), keeki/cheechi(teeth), etc. Like chengel(fork) can become shengel, but not kengel in my opinion.
J isn't used that much, but can always shift to zh(which it basically sounds like anyway) or g if necessary. Panjara(window), Jilvaye/Jilwaye(Assyrians from Jilu), and junta(purse/suitcase) can easily switch to panzhara, Zhilvaye/Zhilwaye, and zhunta, respectively.

I also think any word can shift between ch, j, and zh without sounding weird. Panchara/Panjara/Panzhara all sound harmonious to me.

Quote from:
Not just that but doesn't having J and ZH in Syriac actually make it closer to Arabic?
They're not used in the same context most of the time.

Quote from:
'ayn and "HH" are part of the heritage that are an integral part of the language. Those two sounds existed in Syriac before Arabic even existed.
So? 'Ayn sounds like someone is punching/giving you a weird massage while you're speaking. "I'm in p'ayn and I've g'ayned some weight." <- Illustrating my point. It also sounds very Arabic, since it has practically went extinct in Eastern Assyrian. "HH" sounds like you are taking a breath mid-sentence. The only word I can think of that uses it is Kah'wy(brown), which by the way, sounds terrible.

Quote from:
so no, Classical Syriac isn't closer to Arabic as even Hebrew had Ayn and HH in their language before they butchered it with German...
I haven't listened to Classical Syriac(which I'll do now), but if these two sounds are prevalent, it can't sound that nice.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:02:36 AM by elevated »

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2015, 12:06:27 AM »
Well, I listened to this Western Assyrian song, and I liked it for the most part(flows better than Eastern Assyrian in some regards), but I also heard that dreaded "th" sound present in some Eastern Assyrian dialects.

That is another sound that makes our language sound like Arabic. One of the Eastern Assyrian words that do that in some dialects is telaja->thelaja(fridge), which basically sounds like Arabic thelaj.



Here is an Eastern Assyrian song that has a similar melody for an accurate comparison:(skip to 1:30)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 12:59:17 AM by elevated »

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2015, 12:53:57 AM »
Are you seriously telling me that Syriac would've still formed into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic whether or not the Muslims destroyed our education institutions? I highly doubt Syriac would've become like this and that's what I want to correct.
Never said that. There is no goal when it comes to evolution. It would've sounded different for sure from the past Syriac. I do agree that English is the most mixed language in the world. Most of our words are French, Latin, German and Greek.

Quote
Actually, no one has it correct. Western dialect has it nearly perfect to Classical/Educational Syriac. The only part that ruins it is by replacing Zqapa "ah" with "oh"
There is no right or wrong man! We all speak the Syriac language. One language isn't less or more wrong. We evolved. And that's that. We will never sound full on Syriac.

Quote
We don't have much use of Ayn or Guttural H because our lack of proper language education, thanks to "the religion of peace", deteriorated the language into an uneducated ghetto dialect...
How ironic, since it's the people of the "religion of peace" that speak a language with a guttural H and Eh. Our language 'deteriorated' for the better. It sounds more pristine and clearer. Go look at the friggin' polls of the worst sounding languages - Hebrew, Arabic, Dutch and German. Why? Because they're so annoyingly and unpleasantly guttural. Assyrian evolved for the better. Only our church priests and Assyrian purists tend to be guttural. I'm glad that we all don't sound that way. And really? Ghetto? For me guttural sounds are worse than ghetto. They are primitive.

J and ZH sound French, rather than Arabic. Bonjour. I love the Zh sound actually.

Do you have an example of someone speaking and/or singing in Classical Syriac? Ayn and the "h" in laham ajeen are hideous to the ears. I cannot imagine our language sounding more pleasant with the reintroduction of these two letters in our common tongue. If Classical Syriac sounds closer to Arabic than our current dialects, it is obviously uglier, since Arabic(save for the Lebanese/Levantine dialects) are grotesque, whether it be Standard, Egyptian, Iraqi, etc.
I couldn't have said it better!

If I have to choose between an ugly Syriac variant (the traditional "Assyrian" language) over a clean, pristine sounding modern dialect I'd choose the latter any day. I listen to the Turoyo language and I get cringed with their massive use of guttural sounds. Chaldeans also use those.

Tell me Mrzurnaci, if our language is so Arabicized why the hell did we drop the guttural H and Ayn? And as what Elevated said, even if Syriac came before Arabic (which I commend) the guttural sounds won't automatically sound pretty.

Quote
Well, I listened to this Western Assyrian song, and I liked it for the most part(flows better than Eastern Assyrian in some regards), but I also heard that dreaded "th" sound present in some Eastern Assyrian dialects.

"Th" isn't too Arabic in my ears. Not to mention, it's predominantly used all over the world anyway. Incidentally, even a fictional language like Elvish (in LOTR) has a lot of "th" sounds. Oh, English speakers use it too. It's not a biggie to me. And most importantly, it doesn't sound unattractive me.

Tyrahes and Barwarneys use 'th' a lot (betha, kthetha, leyathen) - We personally don't. It's just a dialect, doesn't mean they are more or less Assyrian than us.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 01:23:28 AM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline elevated

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2015, 03:07:10 AM »
Tyrahes and Barwarneys use 'th' a lot (betha, kthetha, leyathen) - We personally don't. It's just a dialect, doesn't mean they are more or less Assyrian than us.


I wasn't insinuating that they are less Assyrian. Whatever language or dialect an Assyrian speaks, has no bearing on their "Assyrianess" to me. If they only speak English, good for them. If they only speak Russian, that's okay too. I personally just don't like the sound when it's overdone. What those dialects do, is exactly what some Urmignaye(the dialect I speak) do with the "ch" sound. It's just an overkill sometimes. Neither of these sounds are anywhere close to the irritation level of 'ayn and breathy h though. I would also have no problem with them becoming the basis of a "Standard Assyrian", if that ever happens. Same with any of the other dialects(Eastern or Western), as long as they're not extremely influenced by neighboring languages.

Flora Simon sings with them:


All of the Assyrian dialects are pretty close together now, anyway. It doesn't matter if they were originally from Hakkari or Urmia, you can completely comprehend each other, even with the subtle differences. That's why I can completely understand Flora Simon.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 03:10:14 AM by elevated »

Offline Cascade

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2015, 09:52:31 PM »
I wasn't insinuating that they are less Assyrian. Whatever language or dialect an Assyrian speaks, has no bearing on their "Assyrianess" to me. If they only speak English, good for them. If they only speak Russian, that's okay too. I personally just don't like the sound when it's overdone. What those dialects do, is exactly what some Urmignaye(the dialect I speak) do with the "ch" sound. It's just an overkill sometimes. Neither of these sounds are anywhere close to the irritation level of 'ayn and breathy h though. I would also have no problem with them becoming the basis of a "Standard Assyrian", if that ever happens. Same with any of the other dialects(Eastern or Western), as long as they're not extremely influenced by neighboring languages.

Flora Simon sings with them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJvuSQ8rtg#ws

All of the Assyrian dialects are pretty close together now, anyway. It doesn't matter if they were originally from Hakkari or Urmia, you can completely comprehend each other, even with the subtle differences. That's why I can completely understand Flora Simon.


My post about what's more or less Assyrian was more towards Mrzurnaci (though I happened to have it under your quotes).

And yes, I actually agree that they can be an overkill - the "ch" and "th". At times it gets rather funny. Flora Simon overdoes it too. Ramsen Shino is an Iraqi Koine speaker but he uses them in some of his songs (Dushala, La Gkhook) - I guess to garner the Tyarayeh's attention. But then again, some people just naturally speak that way.

I speak the so-called "Iraqi Koine", as does my family and relatives. So we don't say the "ch" and "th" (some may use "ch", like my late grandma, due to her Urmi background). Incidentally, the Urmian's use of "v" does sound a little pesky (warda = varda).

For me anyway, what matters the most is that we dropped the guttural H and Eh. Though some of our traditional hymns retains them. For example, they are heard in this Linda George liturgical song (just the guttural 'eh', and "th"). For the untrained ear it sounds Arabic (yes, yes, we know that Syriac came before it, but we would be confused with Arabic either way since everyone knows how it sounds, unlike Syriac):


« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 10:09:05 PM by privatebenjamin »
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. - Charles Darwin

Offline GonzaE

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Syriac language
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2016, 11:59:29 AM »
"Your people are the product of multiple migrations, just like everyone else. Your language was bequeathed to you by one of those migrating groups."

Dear Angela
What abouth "your pople"?
Publicaron una buena entrada acerca de vardenafilo y sus contraindicaciones y algunos datos sobre Cialis y sus efectos.

Offline Sharukinu

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2016, 01:40:52 PM »
Bringing up old english? lmao, my MOM made the same excuse/argument.

English is a clusterf**k of other languages and roots...

Syriac is not. There's a specific reason why ALL Syriac letters have their own, distinct sounds...

Maybe we don't have to go back to Classical Syriac but the idea is to revive our old sounds.

ܚ - There's a good reason Kheth sounds like the "Arabic-style" as you put it, Guttural H.

In Sureth, we modify Kaph to become the Kha sound. We seriously do not need two "kha" sounds.

Same thing with ܒ going from Veth to Weth. Why do we need another W sound when we have Waw?

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? The idea is to revive aspects of the Syriac language that shouldn't have died out.

Are you seriously telling me that Syriac would've still formed into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic whether or not the Muslims destroyed our education institutions?

I highly doubt Syriac would've become like this and that's what I want to correct.



I've already passionately felt the same way ....we just need a means to reform and standardise the language.
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Offline mrzurnaci

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Re: Syriac language
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2016, 06:41:11 PM »

I've already passionately felt the same way ....we just need a means to reform and standardise the language.

standardized with a standard dialect. A single dialect that is accepted by both West and Eastern dialect speaking Assyrians of all churches!

 

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